GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking for directions on my way)

11-22-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	22242
Reply to:	22240

A few comments.

I very much like a few things you did with the frame. I like that the stack is compact with no wasted space. I like that you have the highs of your frame higher then you need as if you go for slightly larger MF channel then you have a frame height to accommodate it. I like that you reversed the MF and tweeter. It is not a configuration that I would like generally but in context of your drivers it is a very proper move and it clear indication that you properly react upon what you are hearing. I love that the frame has those whole that allow to hung the channels at different heights. It is perhaps a bit utilitarian but inexpensive and a very effective solution.

A few comment what I do not like. The rollers at the bottom. They add 2-3 inch to the elevation of the horns and they make the frame less stable on the floor. In case you have a hardwood floor I very much advocate to use felt feet. Any home improvement store has zillion of them, juts self-adherent felt pads and they work wonderful. You still will be able to move the horn across the floor.

Regarding your questions. My crossover points should not be relevant to you as it has to do with my horns, my driver and a few other things. I am not the person who believe that a crossover point shall or shall not be in this or in that range - it might be anywhere you drivers and a few other thing would make it to be. So, where I cross the channels is irrelevant unless you do the direct Macondo replica, something that you shall not be doing anywhere...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-22-2015

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	27
Post ID:	22243
Reply to:	22242

Crossover relevancy

Yes, I do believe your exact crossover points would be irrelevant as well. I just wanted to know the span of your horns and drivers. I especially wondered about your fundamentals channel. You said it was narrow but what is narrow for you. Mine covers about 2 and a half octaves and with very important information. So that is why I stopped calling it fundamentals channel and just called it midrange. The effect I get is not similar to what you describe (if i could understand it right). It does not just add texture but also contains the tone but not the whole of the tone. The instruments body is not there, but the rest is quite there. It is like the anchor of the system. The strings without it does not just miss the texture but also the timbral uniqueness...

The position of the horns are dictated by the design, I had to put them in this order according to what I hear.

It is very convenient for now to keep the wheels. I am thinking of a solution, with shallower feet that are fixed. When I take off the wheels, they can stand on them. When I want to move, I can just insert the wheels back. These are trivial at this point but I always keep on thinking.

11-22-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	22248
Reply to:	22243

How narrow is narrow...

Yes, what you describe completely makes sense. In your case the upper horn is not what in my systems. Since you have no truly MF channel but rather upper MF and HF your Fundamental is kind of main source of sound. My Fundamentals covers from around 600 to 1000 and (if I am not mistaken) and has a very sharp filter at upper knee (third order).

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-22-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	29
Post ID:	22406
Reply to:	21722

An update and some more ideas

I have been working on my system. I post sparse as I need to listen a lot before doing any changes or decide on anything.

I have changed the 1000hz JMLC horn to a 1400hz JMLC horn and the results are better. I have better integration with the Fostex t500amkII and the crossover point of the fostex t500amkII's are now a little higher. This means better efficiency and less reflections from the top of the upperbass horn for me.

I have also been working on crossovers and it seems when you have 6db filters, for them to be effectively working the impedance response should be as flat as possible. Then they work accordingly. So the simple 6db filter is not so simple at all. Now I understood why these Vandersteen crossovers look like they do!

My channels are now working in between these frequencies effectively;
Dual TAD 1601b bass reflex boxes: 34hz to 150hz
Supravox 285 in 110hz tractrix: 150hz to 500hz
Radian 850 in 200hz tractrix: 500hz to 4500hz
Radian 475be in 1400hz JMLC: 4500hz to 9000hz
Fostex t500amkII: 9000hz to as much as they can play up to Smile

I had been demolishing walls etc, so there is a lot of dust around and the horns look filthy. I will be posting beau photos in the coming month, with the whole system.

My cat enjoying the measurements Smile

03-07-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	30
Post ID:	22557
Reply to:	22406

Nearly there!

I have my passive crossovers arrived. They are built by hornFabrik. Everything is up to the spec I asked for and I really like their build quality. As of yesterday, I have now a more promising sound towards what I have aimed for. They are first order built specifically for my drivers and their responses after me measuring the hell out of them. The result was worth my time and the cost is justifiable for me.

The main horn system has small relative attenuation work which I can easily do as the crossovers boards are designed to accommodate changing resistor on r1 and r2 very easy. I also have the fostex autoformer on the 200 hz horn.

The main thing to work on will the integration of the dual Tad bass units to the room. They will be on the outside like this but their perfect position and the panels I built to work with them has not yet been implemented. As usual I am going slow, and will be testing them in a lot of different positions and listen to them enough to have an honest opinion.

Here is the first day setup after crossovers with everything in order (except the room is not yet finished).

03-09-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	22561
Reply to:	22557

What a crossover!

That is a fancy one, with vacuum caps as I can see it. I do not know about the practicality of vacuum caps – they have own pluses and minuses. Still, that is nice crossover, a bit more complicated then I initially thought I has to be. It would be nice to see a schematics…

The picture of the room is nice. How does it sound? Among the things I would do would be pile up two or 4 more driver per channel in LF section. They should create more array like cylindrical wave (will help with room more a lot in your short wall configuration). I would also put some kind of window treatment over that large glass surface behind the speakers.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-09-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	32
Post ID:	22562
Reply to:	22561

Vacuum caps and more

Yes, the crossover looks fancy Smile

More than that it does the job. The vacuum caps are only for the tweeter and the upper-mid beryllium. Still they are bridged with micas as they wont do much alone. Adding vacuum caps smoothens the transitions and sounds very neutral while doing it, at least to my ears.

The room is not yet integrated with the speakers. I am positioning them (thanks to the wheels) and the acoustic panels, then listening for some time. It looks like it would take months for me to be really satisfied with the setting up. This is no problem though, this is the case with such a complex system. The glass windows disappear when I press a button and my cinema screen comes down. It is not acoustically transparent, so it subdues the glass reflections...

What I can say for the sound. I can say this is a subject I don't like! Still I can say, there are not many problems with the horns. I have aligned them yesterday more precisely and they integrated better. As I am about 470 centimeters away from them, alignment is not a big issue. 200 hz horn is about 3,3cm closer to than the fostex, the 475 is about 0,2 and the bass horn about 5,92cm closer.

I took the 200hz horn 5 centimeters higher and it really helped with the reflections of 1400 hz jmlc. I found out, every driver needs a bit more space than I assumed. So the system is now about 13 centimeters higher. When I cut the wheels out after I am happy with their positions in the room, it will bring it down 8 centimeters. Overall height will be close to my first approximation with the drivers being more apart.

It seems I will have to fix some feet to the bass units, they do not like to sit on the carpet. It makes them a little sluggish. I have some at hand, so I plan to do it on weekend.

Also the back chamber of the basshorn can take more filling it seems, this is on my weekend to do list as well...

I also tried my tapped horn working below the bass units, from about 20 hz to 40-50 hz and it integrated better than I expected. I may continue to use it. Strauss convinced me at the beginning of the piece "Also sprach Zarathustra" with that sustained low C on the organ Smile

03-11-2016

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	33
Post ID:	22563
Reply to:	22562

The height...

kodomo wrote:

I took the 200hz horn 5 centimeters higher and it really helped with the reflections of 1400 hz jmlc. I found out, every driver needs a bit more space than I assumed. So the system is now about 13 centimeters higher. When I cut the wheels out after I am happy with their positions in the room, it will bring it down 8 centimeters. Overall height will be close to my first approximation with the drivers being more apart.

I was wondering about this in context of my own frame. Your experience has now cemented for me that I should have the option with my frame to alter the height of the individual channels. Thanks for sharing your experience, and I really like your room and your obvious dedication to your audio project.

03-11-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	34
Post ID:	22564
Reply to:	22563

Height and some more info

Hello Anthony
Do not worry too much about how high the system ends up or how high the highest horn is positioned. If you are far enough (I am 470cm away from my drivers) and align them properly, the sound is right in front of you. Actually my system is about 2meters high but the soundstage is lower than my old modified klipschorns!
If anyone is wondering about the initial system response, here is an spl graphic.

You can see the two main problems being 70hz and 200hz in this graph. 200hz is from the floor bounce of the basshorn. I will add absorbers to the floor. The 70hz peak is from the Tad bass units sidewall reflection. That area will also be treated with acoustic absorbers.

03-11-2016

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	35
Post ID:	22565
Reply to:	22564

Floor bounce...

kodomo wrote:
Hello Anthony

You can see the two main problems being 70hz and 200hz in this graph. 200hz is from the floor bounce of the basshorn. I will add absorbers to the floor. The 70hz peak is from the Tad bass units sidewall reflection. That area will also be treated with acoustic absorbers.

Kodomo, I have not looked back through the thread to see what your horns are made from (they look great by the way!), but have you put an accelerometer on your horns and measured their resonating frequencies? Ever since I put my hands on a circa 110Hz fibreglass horn and felt it shaking I wondered how much "noise" in dB it was making of its own which is why I have made my UB horn so massively heavy from MDF...even the backchamber is enormously thick to counter the vibrations from the back of the driver. I am not ready to measure this myself, and I don't really know just how much it could contribute to the frequency response, but I find it interesting nonetheless.

If you feel it is worth looking into, perhaps try adding some temporary mass or damping to the outside of the UB horn and remeasuring the frequency response to see if any dips or bumps move at all (remember to do the before measurement with the microphone in exactly the same position). Or if you have an accelerometer, give that a go. I would be most interested in what you find...but your horn may well be adequately damped and you will find nothing at all.
Cheers,
Anthony

03-11-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	36
Post ID:	22566
Reply to:	22564

A few comments....

Kodomo, be advised that if you move your individual drivers up and down then you need to do time realignment of your systems.

You finding about the “drivers need some space” is kind of controversial. Let me to talk a little bit about the subjects. My experiments with the Macondo topology suggested that the dependency to space for individual divers to a great degree depending from the proximity of the entire speaker to boundaries. For instance if a speaker is located close to the side or back wall (back was is more critical) then you can feel very well the vertical position of the drivers. It is not that more space is good or less space is good but rather you do feel impact of moving drivers up and down. IF however a speaker is well acoustically detached from the walls (let say it is 6-8 feet to the horns with diffusers on the walls) then musing the driver up and down impact sound less. You still will have impact in driver integration but it will be rather “equally good” then “one better than other”.

A few words about your frequencies response. You have slightly shallow response under 70Hz. That little peaks that you have at 70Hz masked it out but it is there. With response like this you will not be able to get luxury slow bass, you will not have proper “space” and your MF will have no lower harmonics support. Take some crappy $50 subwoofer, set it in phase with 35Hz line up the LF to be 2-3dB over the MF. Get the impact it make to the overall sound. Now, get rid that crappy subwoofer and try to get the same response only by more honorable means….

Rgs, Romy the CaT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-12-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	37
Post ID:	22567
Reply to:	22566

Alignment and tapped horn as my sub

Yes, when I move the drivers or for that matter if I move my listening position, I realign.

What I hear and measure about the drivers relative distances to each other is this. When I first set up the drivers, one horn ended and the next one started, there were no space in between. Actually unless I sit at 120cm high (ear height), the tweeter was below the bass horns relative to the listener. So at the end, I took the tweeter 10cm higher. Then kept the distance between tweeter and upper mid, it is ok for one to end and the other to start. I had moved my 200hz tractrix 5 cms higher and that helped the 1400jmlc and did not hurt or effect the 200hz tractrix. After doing this many small dips and small inflations in the sound pressure were gone.

This SPL graph is without me turning on the tapped horn. I can do what you say already. I can understand what you mean by space, because since I built my tapped horn and did not compromise and built it full size, I can hear and feel that "space"

03-12-2016

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anthony
Posts 338
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Post #:	38
Post ID:	22568
Reply to:	22567

Ear height

Kodomo, what is your ear height when you are sitting in your listening chair? I guess it is less than 120cm. Perhaps when you finish setting up the horns and remove the wheels effectively lowering them you may be in the position of lowering the tweeter again because it is not obscured by the upperbass horn.

03-14-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	39
Post ID:	22569
Reply to:	22566

With the tapped horn

It goes quite flat to 20hz with the tapped horn. 20hz to 60hz with the tapped. It has 18db/octave Linkwitz-Riley, and then to dual Tad1601b, where you see the rising of the response around 74hz. I have tamed these bump some, but it needs a little more work. When the system goes fown to 20hz like this, the whole representation becomes something else. Its like having a transparent spatial cushion underneath for the rest of the soundscpae to float on...

07-27-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	40
Post ID:	22688
Reply to:	21722

The latest measurement and small changes

Maybe, some people would be interested in what I am doing with my system. I have been continuously listening and sparsely making changes and letting them sink in. For now, I feel more settled and think the biggest obstacle for me in reaching the sound that I dream is primarily about the listening space. It is not bad but it is not the best suited one for my system. Space has the most potential for improvement.

I have reduced the internal volume of the back chamber of my upperbass horn with very thick and strong felt.

I have been trying different relative attenuations on my channels, and now it has been set for over a month.

I have taken down the tapped horns 18db/oct crossover from 60hz to 30hz. This and the back chamber really taken bass to an even better experience.

Next thing I am going to do is, cover internals of the whole woofer boxes (except for the baffle) with felt lining. Although I can not hear any, I still I think it will be better as it is a vented box and higher frequencies may be bleeding through ports, it will also be good for lowering THD... By the way, the TAD TD-1601b's sound quite wonderful after some burn in. If I did not have the upperbass horn, they would easily match with the 200hz tractrix! Still the biggest improvement I had was the upperbass horn so it is not going anywhere.

Here is the latest SPL response from my listening spot. I am about 530cm away from acoustic centres of my speakers. If I move the mic closer to tweeter height, the treble extends and that bum around 10khz tames. I sit a little lower than tweeters, and I will fix that. This measurement is exactly from where my head is. You can see the rooms effects below 200hz, this will be solved by a new room...

07-27-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	41
Post ID:	22689
Reply to:	22688

Some comments about your response.

kodomo , I would like to make some comments about your response. The presumption that the mic was exact in the listening spot and the drivers are time-aligned and run “in-phase”. If any of the above conditions are not true then all bets are off and any below has no relativity to you.

Generally the response is Ok but I would pay attention to a little bulge you have from 7K to 12K. In case of average room (in term of acoustic) this shall be auditable. I understand that this is hoe your MF drivers works. Do, shut down your tweeter and try to listen a bit without it. Then, try to turn the entire playback a few degrees off your listening spot. For instance if your MF horns aimed now to your side of your head then aim them to the end of your shoulder. Do NOT turn juts MF horn but turn only the while system. Turning the MF only would bring a need to time-re-aligned the whole system, you do not want that.

So, as you turn slightly your system the imaging will be change bit try to discard it. The HF will be more gently rolling off and try to get use to it. This little “sparkle” at 10K shall give to you some pleasure but do try to tune yourself off it. If you feel that with loosing of that bulge at 10K you will be losing transients at your upper range then do not “fix” it by 10K bulge but rather by … loading the output stage of your SET slightly more idle. (It will change gain as well). As you find a good performance of your upper range with reduced bulge at 10K then put your tweeter back to the duty.

Rgs, Romy

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-29-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	42
Post ID:	22693
Reply to:	22689

You are right

You are right Romy. When I toe them in a little more, that curve flattens. If I toe in and also sit about 10cm's higher, it is both flat and more extended...

These will be very important as I will be designing the final stand this winter. I am so happy I did everything adjustable to start with!

ps. I have also experienced that the lowest end (sub 50hz) has a major role on the perception of the whole sound spectrum. When I build "my" ideal room for this system, I will build another tapped horn for an even more homogenous foundation, even though they are cut at 30hz.

07-29-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	43
Post ID:	22694
Reply to:	22693

Try to play with it more.

This little bulge at 10K is very interesting thing. It might be presented and in a way beneficial but much smaller then your. It would a great degree depend from the way how acoustic environment is done still if everything is done properly then +1 or half dB at 10K might be very nice to have. It is important do not have it too much and do not have it too narrow…. I would like to pay attention that toeing speakers is only a mechanism to test with bulge smoothing and it is not proper way to moderate the bulge become with toeing a lot of aspects of imaging are changing. If you would like a clean way to get rid of the budge (as testing) then drop at the mouth of the horn some kind an acoustic filter. You can get a plastic screen that used to prevent mosquitos to fly in windows. One layer over mouth will shave approximately 1.5dB back-proportionally to frequency. This way not proper way to USE system but it is a very effective way to listen playback DURIG experiments and tuning.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-09-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	44
Post ID:	22705
Reply to:	22694

30ppi renticulated foam

I have found 30ppi renticulated foam in an online aquarium shop and ordered it. It's specs is the same with what Geddes used as plugs in his horns. I will try that on my cf1400hz le cleach with varying depth through layering. First just a thin layer at the throat, then some more and then 70% of the horn covered like Geddes suggests. I will try and note the differences and will try to measure its effects. It seems it will be very hard to measure as they are quite ineffective sound pressure wise (transparent dynamically?), but have an effect on tonality...

08-29-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
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Post #:	45
Post ID:	22757
Reply to:	22705

First results of my experience

The reticulated foam makes a difference and that is for sure. However it does lower the output. From about 1db up to 2.5db! depending on the amount you put inside your horns.
Is it transparent? It is not, as it creates and audible difference even if you lift the driver/horn combination back up to original level (level before installing the foam)
Does it eliminate homs (higher order modes as named by Geddes) or works in some other way? Well, I can not say and homs is a subject that people debate on its existence. However for me it is more like the sound loses its breathing space. Like treble ambience. If the system is not tuned good, if it sounds overly bright or something like that, these may tame, but for my system this seems like a worthless addition, as the system is not shouty or edgy. The system only exhibits this kind of edgy behaviour if the actual recording is made that way and I would maybe keep these for sake of listening to those recordings Smile

I have tried varying depths and levels on horns and will continue to do so for another month before finalising my views. These may work wonders for some poeple who push their horns capacity too much (further than 3db) or people who use edgy TAD or BMS drivers Smile

08-29-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	47
Post ID:	22761
Reply to:	22759

Aquarium filter foam

I have used an aquarium filter foam, it is exactly the same foam. It can be bought from aquarium stores but you have to shape it and cut it. You can layer them one on top each other and cover any horn up to 50cm diameter with the one I have found. Here is the link for what I got: http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html

09-22-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	48
Post ID:	22785
Reply to:	22761

Last words on foam and other updates

After trying these reticulated foams for some time now, I ended up with using them only on the JMLC 1400 with the Radian 475 beryllium drivers. I had a smallish bump about where it worked. It flattened out and the sound changed a little. It sounded a more airy and open when the bump was there but I have judged that it was not natural. The sound is a little more controlled on the higher registers now. It is very easy to take them out as well, so when I feel like the string section needs more air (as if in a bigger concert hall) I can take them out Smile

This is how the setup is as of now. The floor is carpeted and underneath the carpet, I also have heavy felt lining. The ceiling is full of quadratic diffusors. This is the best I can get on listening. The interesting thing is the opposite works best for recording. Reflection on the floor and absorption on the ceiling.

The whole equipment rack is now detached from the listening room. It is on another concrete slab. I will be now working on my bass boxes a little more. As they are reflex boxes with absolutely no port noise, I am satisfied with them and will continue updating them. I will put 2mm Bitumen inside all three sides except the front plate. Then felt and opposite the drivers some acoustic foam too. I also have the shop cut the densest granite and put two layers of them on top of each other. They are to go under the bass boxes as they rest on carpet now. Each block is about 100kg's.

09-26-2016

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	49
Post ID:	22787
Reply to:	22785

Looks very good.

Looks like a sensible location of side defuses. My latest observation on the subject is contrary to what the audiophile wisdom recommend. Most audio people use a lot of absorbers and I had this tendency as well in past. In my new room I use mostly natural absorbers: drapery, furniture, carpet and try to minimize to use of explicit absorbers. I feel that parabolic defuses do the best under normal circumstances – they sound “live” but do not create harmonic signature. I picked and experimented with Auralex GeoFusors. They are a major rip off money wise and they should cost $6 each. Still, if to discard the financial side then acoustically they do work very well in my new room. This clip demonstrate the result very well, and it very much correlates with what I am was hearing during my experiments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVsg8KitD0A

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-28-2016

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	50
Post ID:	22793
Reply to:	22787

View with diffusors on the ceiling

Side diffusors are 2 d parabolic with absorption at the back. They are very good, absorbing the lower registers and diffusing the higher. This way they do not suck the life out of the sound (over absorption of hf)
I also work with carpet and even ottomans positions and effects, they are audible and measurable.

Geofusors look nice, I might get one, experiment with it and if succesful work on replicating it via cnc with wood (why not)

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