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09-28-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 51
Post ID: 22794
Reply to: 22793
Ah, they are parabolic!
fiogf49gjkf0d
If they are parabolic then do not need to experiment with anything else – they look gorgeous. Juts for shits and giggles try to put between the equipment rack and speakers some kind of very fussy plants of 5-6 feet tall. It might not be to your taste from perspective of room décor but it might acoustically decouple your playback from the glass behind. Juts try to put something in there that transparent for LF and to see what will happen.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 52
Post ID: 22909
Reply to: 21722
Bass boxes updates
You may remember that my bass reflex boxes were sitting on top of the carpet. I installed a few days ago, 4 brass spikes under each one, then their foots to sit on, and put them on the sandwich granite bases I made. Bases are 50kg each now!
I have also covered the opposite walls of the drivers inside the box with rockwool and covered that with felt.

This had a very good overall effect on sound. I was very happy with everything over about 200hz in my system for sometime. Now, I am very happy down to 20hz. Do not get me wrong, it was sounding fine and was blending well. Now, I have spacious sound at the bass frequincies too and the sounds start and stop and die in the room more naturally. Overall it sounds like the system had just thrown another veil over its sound that was covering some of the bass. The denser passages sound even better now. 
As of now, I have finished everything I planned to do with my system and I am very happy with the result. Further than this will be new adventures. One of these could be the rebuilding of the basshorn out of wood with the exact specs of the one I use now. Another one might be the trial of jmlc 270hz horn instead of the tractrix 200 as it wont pose much of a problem height wise. The acoustic center will be 5cm's higher, but the wood horn and the new frame will take the system 7 cm's lower. So I can do them together in the future. If it does not work as good as I want, I will have an extra 110hz horn, 270hz horn, 1000hz horn. Maybe I can get another tweeter and build a second similar pair as a test platform or sell it to fund other projects Smile
dualTad1601bBRbox.JPG
01-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 53
Post ID: 22910
Reply to: 22794
Ok, try this.
 kodomo wrote:
Now, I am very happy down to 20hz. Do not get me wrong, it was sounding fine and was blending well. Now, I have spacious sound at the bass frequincies too and the sounds start and stop and die in the room more naturally. Overall it sounds like the system had just thrown another veil over its sound that was covering some of the bass. The denser passages sound even better now. 

Kodomo, here is some sanity check for you. I do not object what you do, I just paint for you the pass I went and the way how I asked myself some questions. You feel comfortable with your bass session. This is perfectly valid state of mind. Do an experiment.


Fist switch your playback to mono, I mean use only ONE channel, let say left and play only mono recordings. The reality is that you can play even stereo recording’s one channel, but it would requires a degree of experience that you might not developed yet. Remember, this is not about music listening but about a very targeted audio listening. So, you flip you system to a mono mode with whatever means it comfortable to you using let say juts left channel of you playback. Now take a right channel bass amplifier and right channel bass speaker section and place them atop pf your left channel bass module. Make sure that the bass speakers are in-phase. Drop between 3 and 8 dB on each bass channel or even better use RTA to flatten bass response, while making sure that bottom and top bass modules (former left and right) run the same amplification gain. Now listen the result. You might feel a lot of improvement, including your HF response.try


What I am saying is that looking at your installation I see a conspicuously empty space above your current bass modules (those acoustic treatments are not relevant). If your woman do not insist to fill this space with a ficus and you have some money and time to burn then you might consider adding another 2 drivers per channel, doubling your current bass modules.  Besides all things that you might expect from the experiment above there is a thing that you might know until you try. The thing is that for whatever reasons the little line-array that your bass speaker will form do work spectacularly well with Macondo-like configuration. There are of cause many textbook advantages of LF line-array but based upon my experience those advantages are particularly sweet while line-array used with speakers of your type.


Rgs, Romy

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-11-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 54
Post ID: 22911
Reply to: 22910
Why not!
I got what you mean. It is one of those things I really would like to try as well. When I started my project, I was going to have an array of scanspeak drivers but I had problems with the distributor here. It was then I got the Tad's and went 16" instead of 10" and reduced the number of drivers.

I will need another weekend to try this, as these bass boxes are quite heavy and I will need help to put them on top of each other Smile I will let you know about the results. I can adjust the volume of these boxes independently so it will not be a problem to attenuate them.

I also got some great jazz mono recordings that I can test with. I can sum my digital front end to mono as well, so I can try a lot of stuff with deeper bass too.

My girlfriend loves that I am passionate about sound and she enjoys the system and the improvements I make, so I am lucky I guess...
01-11-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 55
Post ID: 22912
Reply to: 22911
Like with anything else: the initiative is punishable.
Kodomo, I know that you will try it. Let me to pitch you another question to ask yourself while you will be experimenting with it. I, BTW, never was able to find a final answer to myself and I might advocate both approaches below.  
 
Let pretend that you cross your bass drivers at 80 cycles and you decided to multiply the bass cabinets, having one 2 bass modules per a channel with 2 drivers per module. You have two option to do it. You can run all 4 drivers at 80Hz or you can run 2 drivers (of one module) crossed at 80Hz and another 2 driver (of a second module) to cross at let say 30Hz. By doing it you will introduce essentially bass and ULF module.  
 
I said that I can advocate both approaches. The first one is better because it is easy. The second one is better because it gives enormous flexibility to write acoustic signature to the specific acoustic demands of the room with respect to given octave. You can go for different drivers, different enclosure topology, different filtration, different amplification…You can spend months experimenting with it… and this might be consider bad thing. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 56
Post ID: 22914
Reply to: 22912
Bass and ulf
I am actually doing the bass and ULF with different modules and amps. My bass modules are the dual tad boxes driven with their dedicated monoblock solid state amplification. The tapped horn is working for ULF only as it is crossed at 30hz with 18db. I can adjust the ulf modules (tapped horn) filter, phase and amp and yes, it gives me a lot of room to experiment. The tapped horn is driven by a hypex class d amp. I have tried a lot of different crossover points and filter slopes there and ended up with the setting I have now. When I have the time, I plan on building an exact replica of my tapped horn to create better ulf in the room too.
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiogurujax
Posts 3
Joined on 01-12-2017
Post #: 57
Post ID: 22920
Reply to: 22785
Horn source
Hi I am interested in building a speaker using horns like these can you guide me to where to source them I been looking arround and cant find noone that is either manufacturing or shipping large tractrix horns in the USA.
Thanks
Eric
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 58
Post ID: 22921
Reply to: 22920
Look into it more.

Eric, if you are considering building a speaker of Macondo topology then you might reexamine “using horns like these”. The subject of La-horns vs Tratrix in Macondo topology is well discussed at this site, you might give to it some consideration.  > >



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiogurujax
Posts 3
Joined on 01-12-2017
Post #: 59
Post ID: 22922
Reply to: 22921
Where do I source
Thanks but where do I source Horns these big I cant find any manufacturer or store where I can buy neither La-horns or Tratrix of large diameter?
01-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 60
Post ID: 22925
Reply to: 22922
Polish manufacturer
You can contact autotech of Poland. They manufacture a lot of different horns. http://horns-diy.pl/en/
07-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Audiogerhard
Posts 1
Joined on 07-24-2017
Post #: 61
Post ID: 23338
Reply to: 22557
Crossover hornfabrik
Hi
I read about your very fine hornsystem on Romy´s homepage. I started now a own Hornproject and I see your crossover from “Hornfabrik”. You have so right that a good crossover is also a key for a very good hornsystem. I´m so interested on the values from the crossover. Is it possible that you send me the values from your crossover.

Kindly regards
Gerhard
07-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 62
Post ID: 23339
Reply to: 23338
Which values?
Which values are you after? If its the crossover points, here they are, they ay be indicative for you;
dual Tad1601b's in 298lt br boxes - open on bottom to 120 Hz, in a range 90 to 150 Hz ~12 dB (three different settings can be chosen, according to room response)

cf110hz tractrix - supravox 285-2000 modified - 100Hz (effective 150Hz) - 600Hz (effective 500Hz) - 6 dB

cf200hz tractrix - radian 850 - 500Hz - 5000Hz - 6 dB

cf1400 JMLC - radian 475be - 4500Hz - 12000Hz (effective 8000Hz) 6 dB

fostex t500amkII 9000 Hz (effective 7000Hz) 6 dB


However, unless every single component is exactly the same with mine, my crossover wont work for you... 
07-25-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 63
Post ID: 23340
Reply to: 23339
Impedance correction
Keep in mind that my crossovers are not just 6db filters. There is an impedance correction network, suited to these exact drivers in these horns. Unless this correction is there, the first order filters can not work against the rising or falling impedances. 

Only after achieving flat responses from these drivers in their respective horns within their chosen ranges, they are filtered with 6db.

That is also the reason that my crossovers are unique to my system. If I make a change, I will also need to change the corresponding part in my crossovers.
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 64
Post ID: 24855
Reply to: 21722
Update on room and new measurements
I just wanted to make an update. I have since rebuilt our main room and am very happy about it. Having a very good and homogenous decay (within 0,05ms) for the whole audio band really turns the listening experience in to something else. Total clarity from bass to upper end. Great transient response, a very relaxed sound without loosing any of the good qualities like dynamics and detail. The front wall is made up of binary diffusors and about 30cms worth of absorbtion behind it. The center is made up of a vertical moss garden. Then there are the moveable absorptive panels on top of my vinyl cabinets. There are also basstraps on the rest of the wall to ceiling corners. Total absorption is calculated and then applied, it resulted in great response. Having a symmetry is also great after having the room open on one end at my old setup. The general stereo image is better with symmetrical setup. All in all, I am very happy about the new room. 
kodomort60.jpg
kodomonewroom.JPG
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 65
Post ID: 24857
Reply to: 24855
Very nice.
So, basically you built a wall on the right side, separating the listening section from whatever it is behind the wall. A bold move. As the room become slightly smaller and you lost some time for bass dissipation you might try to drop the slope at your bass section crossover. I do not know where you cross (too lazy to look in the thread), let pretend that it is second order 115Hz. Try to switch to 70-80Hz first order and see how you feel. In smaller room this move I feel it works well. You might feel that it would eat some transients, then ide the loading a little (in case you drive the bass section by tube SET). In many cases this will mask out the shorter room reverberation time. 
 
I wonder if you find a way to paint the acoustic foam. I was not able to. The ugly color they do it so annoying. If you find way to turn it to a nicer color it would be so much more attractive. Also, my observation is that if case your room would be large the foam would work better but in case of small room the definers are much more effective then absorbers, not to mention the thy might look better. Your panels are very properly positioned and the combination of absorbers with natural diffuseness of the record shale is very good, still, now much fun would be if the foam would be in natural wood color… 
 
In your posts before you told that you listening spot in the middle of the room and you have space to move your couch behind.  If so I would very strongly recommend to move the horns good 4-5 feet from the back wall and see what happens. You much have much more depth of you imaging and much more complicated layering with this move, try it, you might like it. You would need to reset your toeing of your speaker with this move. As you move the speakers closer to the center of the room try to let then to be pointed at your shoulders, not at your face. 
 
In my view the absolutely best that you have done with your playback and it is something the I never seen before is to make bookshelf perimeter around you listening couch, it is so practical, comfortable and so attractive looking.! I absolutely love it. It also made the whole room feel like a human presence instead of a typical audio torturing chamber. 
 
Regarding the symmetry. There is a community of people I know who brings a lot of argument and practical experiments defending asymmetry in audio listening. They do have point but ONLY in case of phase-misaligned installations. They have phase-random systems and asymmetry helps them, even deeper, to lose phase coherency. My personal experience the in context of phase-align systems a symmetry is very good, in fact the bore anal you go into symmetry the betters result would be. 
 
Anyhow, congratulation with e nice setup. It took for you 3 year, right? I do not want to sound like a jerk and deficit at your parade… but I am so accustom to do so… :-) What I am trying to say. Get a vintage Tannoy Red 10 driver with original crossover and connect it along with your playback, in opposite phase with your MF channels. You might find it worth experiment with.. :-)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 66
Post ID: 24858
Reply to: 24857
The room is bigger
The room is actually bigger now (about 75m2) but the whole orientation has changed. The speakers were at the opposite side of the room near the windows. Having windows for a front wall had a detrimental effect on sound in the old layout. The absorption, diffusion and the vertical moss wall combination has a much better response instead. I insert a panoramic photo of the room to give an idea how the new room layout is. However, as the panorama distorts, let me remark, there is more distance from my listening seat to speakers, then from my listening seat to the windows at the back. It looks like opposite in the panoramic photo.

Yes, very very close, I cross second order 110hz! this is what I have as final, great guess... It works great with the room like this.

I have a lot of space behind couch. I tried speakers further away from the front wall and listened. This is about 55cm's away from the false wooden acoustic wall. That wooden wall is also 30cm deep, so the drivers are about 85cm's away from the front wall and with absorption (which kind of creates a deeper effect). 


It took close to 3 years, which is about right, I was not expecting sooner, even without changing components, small adjustments took me a year to have a steady good sound. I still have things to try, but at least now I have a satisfactory reference point I can go back to or refer to Smile 

kodomopanaroma.jpg
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 67
Post ID: 24859
Reply to: 24858
Very Elegant, and so Reasonable
Things look to be in good proportion. Perhaps you have already tried the speakers off the walls?  I ask because that's how I've always gotten the best sound field/imaging, and generally the best overall sound quality; I move things around until I get acceptable saturation and scale from large and small works.   I guess one negative from moving the speakers away from the walls would be that the listening seats and bookshelves would push in front of the barn door and into the other sitting area?   The glass looks too "right" as it is to add vertical blinds.  In the high end houses around here they use electrically controlled shades that drop from boxes in the ceilings!

Anyway, congratulations!



Best regards,
Paul S
05-17-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 68
Post ID: 24867
Reply to: 24858
I see the cat...
As you already know Kodomo, I am a big fan of your room...it is beautiful.  Those enormous speakers are so well integrated into the aesthetic that they are not the focal point of the warm and comfortable space.  As Romy says, your room is not a "typical audio torturing chamber" (I laughed out loud when I read that)...really well done!
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 69
Post ID: 24875
Reply to: 24857
Distance to front wall
Here, you can see the distance to front wall. The wall is about 10cms behind the moss garden.About 35cms to the wooden binary diffusors surface. Another 55cm to the drivers and total distance to front structural wall is about 90cm (2,95feet)

Maybe more distance could be better for stage depth or other stuff, but for distance needed for the total integration of the channels and a acoustically good point in the room dictates that this is the furthest they can be. All in all, the sounds are deeply layered, stable and harmonically and timbre wise very balanced. For the centre height of the stage, it is coming from somewhere between the tweeter and jmlc1400 horn, which shows great integration. The vocals and centre located solo instruments are also holographically playing in front of others with distinction when recorded like that without annoying or being harsh. The general decaying sounds, and room reverbs feel like actually decaying in the whole room but with control and no hangover. The most beautiful part is, it feels as if there is no effort in playing, it always feel like there is a lot of headroom (the room helped with that a lot) I am very much enjoying the current setup and listen to long hours without any fatigue. My wife says I have started to listen a little louder but it really is enjoyable to listen a little louder if there are no negative issues to the sound and no fatigue. The purepower also keeps steady sound by providing the same kind of electricity every play (if you know what I mean) which is great and means no depressing days out of trying to figure out what happened to the sound and why! In my case the culprit has been found out to be the electricity quality varying incredibly and measurably day by day.

kodomofrontwalldistance.jpg
06-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 70
Post ID: 25474
Reply to: 21722
New bass section
As I already have written before, I was looking at different bass solutions for frequencies below 110hz with my set-up. As of this weekend I have set-up a new solution and will be evaluating and fine tuning it for the coming days. The new bass section is an H frame open baffle system with three 12" woofers with direct servo technology. They are driven by their own direct servo amps. After installing them, I disconnected both my dual tad1601b bass reflex boxes, as well as my 20hz tapped horn. Direct servo and open baffle technology seems to work well together for what is below 110hz. They integrated quite well both to my room and my horns. They are dialed in phase with the rest of the setup. They have close to 4 feet from the structural wall behind them. As far as measurements go, they show a more linear and deeper response. What was unexpected for me is the impact of the bass. I am not talking about the crude disco soundsytem chest rippers. The bass is layered, clean but impactful. It is airy, the bass does not take over the music but still delivers the power. I can hear the hall ambience better and the tympani hits are more distinct followed by their tails. The same goes for the cello and double bass. The tonality of the tads were beautiful and I am tuned to them. I will take some time to comment on the tonality of this system.


Here is a photo of the room with new bass section. AI have put my studer a807 where my tapped horn used to be.
kodomonewOBbassroom.JPG
06-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 71
Post ID: 25477
Reply to: 25474
Trying second time.... :-)
Hm, it looks like I misread you post initially, now I got it. What type of crossover you use at 110Hz? You know that you will eventually will end up 3 more bass sections per side, juts give yourself time… I personally never had success with bass servo systems. In my experiments servo made different (that I did not like) type bass and I do not know it is it an overall topological problem with servo or it was specific to the given implementations that I was trying to use or was trying to listen. Did you use any off-the shelf servo solution of bold your own? Also, you think that positive things that you report is a testimony of the advances of open baffle servo bass or it is a testimony of inferiority of the taped horn?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 72
Post ID: 25478
Reply to: 25477
Differences
I have 2nd order crossover both on the upper knee of the ob bass section and on the lower knee of the midbass section. My measurements show phase response and the summed spl is as good as it can get. 

Have you tried the direct servo technology or do you have experience with the older servos. The older servos relied on accelerometers and were slow to respond, the new direct servo technology seems to overcome this problem. The direct servo technology is by rythmik audio. Their website has information on this technology. The open baffle version is an addition by GR-Research. They have tweaked rythmiks amps for ob application (added dipole-cancellation comnpensation shelving) and also built paper versions for the drivers. They differ on these from what rythmik offers for their sealed and/or ported speakers.. 

The positive attributes may be partly because the ported boxes and a tapped horn working together was more complicated and had some inherent problems. The new system has no issues on integration to midbass, something I have not been aware of until I heard the new system. Also yy ported boxes had increased group delay at their lower end and that was around where the tapped horn was crossing in which measures fine but does not sound like a whole from 20 to 110. Tapped horn below 50hz is not a bad solution by itself. If my midbass played down to 50-60hz, I would not look for another solution. I would have just built another identical tapped horn.

What is positive about the new bass section itself is how light but still impactful the bass is. That is how it works in my room at least. The room is treated to have an even decay down to 40hz and I am sure it helps the bass section integrate to horns. They sound similarly open and fast like the horn section. Still, I need to spend more time to become aware of its overall quality. 

ps. I was going to get 12 drivers to start with and build 6 woofers each. If I am really satisfied with this solution, I think I will do that later on, that is on my mind.
06-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 73
Post ID: 25479
Reply to: 25478
Contemporary Solution
Very interesting, and thanks for dropping some names to follow up on.  I understand this gambit from a sound engineering standpoint, and I am about ready to start considering some engineering again, myself.  It seems like you are enjoying the results, which it still where it's at, regardless of the approach.  May I ask why you chose 12" rather than 15" (or 18") drivers below 110 Hz?


Best regards,
Paul S
06-17-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 74
Post ID: 25483
Reply to: 25478
The "old" servo...
Kodomo, nope, I did not try any new servos and I do not even think I heard any servos over good 10 years. My main problem with servos, was that it made the same bass. I mean different avenues, avenues instrument, different music and different playing styles looks like produced the same bass. It was not good or bad bass but it was very recognizable bass and that structural predictably was something the bothered me very much. What I eventual felt that the servo was no able to play “slow”. I know that slow is not something the typically attributed to good bass but I beg differ. To me servo tends to decay too fast and with too low second harmonics. I love that high transient attacks with slow and wet release. Some dry vintage drivers do it very well, I did not see any servo did it. I do not know how the new servo work and sound however…  Conceptually any feedback system are very good idea but in practice many of them do not deliver. If however to perfect any given feedback system to its own excellence then it might very good result. I never perfected any servo systems in audio and I did not listed any of servo systems that did. What I heard/had was juts stock plan-vanilla servo implementation that might not be good to begin with.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  880205  08-12-2015
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  It is simple, but......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     87  319029  01-20-2016
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1562995  08-03-2007
  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  206183  05-20-2011
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