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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  239194  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  62274  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  199753  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1153839  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1922108  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  870599  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1530162  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  Good highs...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     148  973185  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  51870  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12554  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  137753  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11858  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  86890  06-13-2011
06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 26
Post ID: 13766
Reply to: 13765
K-Horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
You mentioned it yourself that the most interesting midbass you ever heard was from corner horns. Why not utilize if you can a pair of K-horns (or clones) bass (midbass really) bins with sort of moveable fake corners? They can be found dirty cheap these days and can sound pretty exeptional in the 50-150hz band with a right driver and I think your Vitavox 15" are right drivers. I don't see any of your "exotic" ideas working except when you put those gargatuan Midbasses in the room and it will loose then all "homely" qualities you seem to value. At least it could be a good "test rig" which afterwards you could sell (once you make them to sound "proper") to faithful devotees for real money Wink
Regards, W
06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 13767
Reply to: 13765
I hope that good news will come later this week.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 msaudio wrote:
Putting The Mid Bass horns behind your head will not work. This thread was about Mid Bass Horns Project, do you thank you will be able to use any frequency above 80 cycles with rear fired horns that are behind your head? That is a Joke. It looks more like a low frequency horns thread. So you are building a set of horns that will have a range of 35Hz to 80Hz max if even 80 might be a big question mark, there will be some real bad phase problems, time alignment will make it so your forced to use digital crossovers and that is more of a joke. You would be better off with the way your system was to start with, an a few mods that are simple. I preach horns but i will be the first to say that over sized horns suck. You will spend a lot more then $1000.00 on a Attic horn fiasco and when it is compleat you will want to start over because of the disapointment. But this will work out just great because you will go to a large horns setup for bass, then in the future after you learn from your mistake you will be bad mouthing them to. But pride and you pocket book will take the hit.  Msaudio

Msaudio,

I hope you are today more sober then you usually are and will be able to comprehend what I say.  The horn will be not 35Hz to 80Hz max but most likely 50Hz to 200Hz. If you are willing to object anything then get familiar with the subject of the objection – it was written about it many times. Your comment about prospective problems with phase problems and time alignment are ridicules – the whole project meant to be time-aligned. I will spend tens time more than $1000.00 and I have no assurance that I will not face disappointment.  So, what? It will be not first time and I hope not the last time. What however I have is the pride and knowing the result I am accustomed I do very comfortable with the pride for what I do and what I am trying to accomplish. Sure, I would like to learn from the mistakes of others. I do learn and I do not mind to contribute to the composite consciousness of playback organization my own experience. This is what my site is about. I do honestly tell about my project and I do interest about criticism. Unfortunately your are trying to deliver a criticism at the level that I consider sub-acceptable for myself.  Your arguments are very weak not to say illogical or ignorant, at least it is that way how I perceive it.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
One simple way to get a feeling for how this might or might not work out would be to place your currnet mid bass arrays in the rear of the room and run them with a band pass filter from 50-200Hz.

Jessie,

unfortunately I do not think that it is possible. You see the exhaust of horns will be not toward to the listening position but way about it to the pitch of the cathedral ceiling. This is the whole key and the whole uniqueness of the project. The LF will be coming to the listening position but the more directional HF will be hitting the room and detracting in there. I anticipate that I will be able even to go away with very slow low filter on the midbass horns as there is no direct line of sight between the horn and the listening position. It is imposable in my view to predict how much reflected HF will hit the listening position. It is not to mention that the listening position will be hit very much delayed reflected HF, the HF that will be phase randomized. That randomized delayed HF will be much higher than Haas delay in relation to the main channels, so I think that those randomized delayed HF will be now even associated with main signal and will act as reverberation. I have no idea how to model it – it is very complex. My feeling is that to tune the midbass horn I will be with the low-pass filter – I will be driving it down until the horn will lose sensible directivity. My estimate that at 1000Hz I will lose at least 15dB-20dB from this midbass horn from listening position and if so then  200hz will not be a problem at all. Of course no one know how it turn out but the right way do not have the answers is do not try.

The idea I think is very elegant, I just hope that my carpenter and my framer will not give me bad news….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 13768
Reply to: 13766
The wall-loaded horns?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Wojtek wrote:
You mentioned it yourself that the most interesting midbass you ever heard was from corner horns. Why not utilize if you can a pair of K-horns (or clones) bass (midbass really) bins with sort of moveable fake corners? They can be found dirty cheap these days and can sound pretty exeptional in the 50-150hz band with a right driver and I think your Vitavox 15" are right drivers. I don't see any of your "exotic" ideas working except when you put those gargatuan Midbasses in the room and it will loose then all "homely" qualities you seem to value. At least it could be a good "test rig" which afterwards you could sell (once you make them to sound "proper") to faithful devotees for real money

Reasonable comment, Wojtek and I am considering this opportunity as well. The problem is that my room has no useable corners and they are in additions not time aligned.  If all my attic project go south then I might consider a wall loaded horn but I need to look into it further as did not see any fruitful design idea the I like.

The Cat.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 29
Post ID: 13769
Reply to: 13766
Lofty ideas and heavenly bass?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

I hope you go ahead with your project of installing the horns in your attic as you are probably the only person who might pull it off, but if my opinion was solicited, I think you would be very ill-advised to do so.

Firstly, the costs involved and the real chance that this project might not work make this project statistically a horrible waste of money, time and resources which could be better spent in pursuing other solutions which are more likely to end in success. Your assessment of the cost of the materials must surely be either incorrect or grossly distorts the real financial costs of this project.

In addition, regarding the localisation of some of the upper frequencies where your mid-bass horns are likely to be operating. I doubt one could redress problems with the localisation of these low frequencies, especially if they cause vibrations and localised air ripples in the space above your head. Instead of the vibrations that move across the floor from a not properly isolated subwoofer, you would think that Zeus in the skies is taking care of the lowest notes. I imagine your answer would be that your Fane 8M upper-bass horns and low frequency subs would anchor the low frequencies in question, but that takes away so much flexibility in how you use the mid-bass channels that I firmly believe that it runs counter to your ethos which is to fine-tune everything to its absolute optimised best.

Thirdly, I cannot see from a purist perspective how you will get around the time delay problems (a point that MSaudio does not make forcefully enough) without resorting to equalisation in the digital domain, an area that I thought you considered a definite 'no-go area.' This should I think be used as a last resort but I do not think you have quite reached that point yet, unless you have carried out further research or experimentation which are not apparent in this thread.

Fourthly, I think you have given insufficient weight to the very psychological effect of investing such an arduous amount of time and funds in such a project, irrespective of how successful you are at integrating the mid-bass. Your mind, even your 'bones' will know where the bass is coming from and you will never be able to forget that when you are listening to music I daresay. The last thing you would want is to put yourself in a situation where you are constantly on edge, asking questions about the quality and localisation or time delay issues rather than simply relaxing and enjoying your system after a very tiring and stressful house move.

Lastly and most damning of all, in my humble opinion, you do not know what life has in reserve for you and you may meet the woman or cat of your dreams tomorrow, change jobs, or for any other reason, have to move home. I doubt that moving the rafters will be to the liking of the moving professionals you employ.

So, no, I would not do it. And I think the consensus here would be that most visitors on your site would not. But then again, how many of those readers would have come up with the system that you have presently? Very few I imagine. So as I said at the beginning, I hope you do go ahead and prove all the doubters such as myself, wrong.

Good luck.

Regards
Rakesh




06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 13770
Reply to: 13769
Not proving anything but a challenge.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
Firstly, the costs involved and the real chance that this project might not work make this project statistically a horrible waste of money, time and resources which could be better spent in pursuing other solutions which are more likely to end in success. Your assessment of the cost of the materials must surely be either incorrect or grossly distorts the real financial costs of this project.

The cost. I do have a very clear, very realistic and well-budgeted plan (that I have my reasons not to publicize for now) but it will work ONLY if the space on attic will more or less comply.  I am OK with that cost. If the project will require more extended intrusion into the building framing or moving fundamentals of the stricture then the cost-benefit assessment will be adjusted and the conclusion will be drown accordingly. With all my appearance of being a super-compulsive nerd I am in fact a very pragmatic person. I for instance plan to do this in a way that will not drive the cost of the house down…

 oxric wrote:
In addition, regarding the localisation of some of the upper frequencies where your mid-bass horns are likely to be operating. I doubt one could redress problems with the localisation of these low frequencies, especially if they cause vibrations and localised air ripples in the space above your head. Instead of the vibrations that move across the floor from a not properly isolated subwoofer, you would think that Zeus in the skies is taking care of the lowest notes.

A valid concern, I do not have an answer. I just do not know. My only sentiment is that I did have a number of experiences what I loaded channels to walls/ceilings and they behave very much different then direct radiators. You can take a monitor, low pass it at let say 1000Hz and place it in the middle of the room. The monitor will be well-localized. Then attach the monitor to a poll and place in at the very ceilings. The monitor will be load the whole room. I hope, just hope that I will be able to use this effect giving the fact that my midbass horns will be loaded to the ceiling, the cathedral profile of which will be the continuation of the horns’ mouth.

 oxric wrote:
I imagine your answer would be that your Fane 8M upper-bass horns and low frequency subs would anchor the low frequencies in question….

Yes, this is certainly the hope but who can evaluate or predict the validity of the hope?

 oxric wrote:
Thirdly, I cannot see from a purist perspective how you will get around the time delay problems (a point that MSaudio does not make forcefully enough) without resorting to equalisation in the digital domain, an area that I thought you considered a definite 'no-go area.' This should I think be used as a last resort but I do not think you have quite reached that point yet, unless you have carried out further research or experimentation which are not apparent in this thread.

I completely do not understand the concern about the time delay. The whole idea is to make the midbass in-time with the MF. Look at the diaphragm.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/HousePlan.jpg

The pair of the “A” horns is something that I am planning to place in attic. If everything will go as I plan then they will be very much time alighted… and invisible in the room.

 oxric wrote:
Fourthly, I think you have given insufficient weight to the very psychological effect of investing such an arduous amount of time and funds in such a project, irrespective of how successful you are at integrating the mid-bass. Your mind, even your 'bones' will know where the bass is coming from and you will never be able to forget that when you are listening to music I daresay. The last thing you would want is to put yourself in a situation where you are constantly on edge, asking questions about the quality and localisation or time delay issues rather than simply relaxing and enjoying your system after a very tiring and stressful house move.

Well, Rakesh, how different it from anything else? You instead of listening music could constantly to be concern about the VTA or cathode emission of your output tube. I think what you say is valid but it has no direct relation to my project.  I am well familiar with the fact the I do not build the midbass horns but I build Sound in my room and I am not planning to take my eyes from the ball. Well, if it turns out badly then all that I will need to do is to cover the triangular wall with dry plaster wall and forget that there are horns behind it. It is juts money. If all that we peruse are money then all that we find will be just money. I assure you that I’ve lost much more than what I might loose on this midbass project. I wish that that the midbass project was the worst lost I had in my life.

 oxric wrote:
Lastly and most damning of all, in my humble opinion, you do not know what life has in reserve for you and you may meet the woman or cat of your dreams tomorrow, change jobs, or for any other reason, have to move home. I doubt that moving the rafters will be to the liking of the moving professionals you employ.

Do you think that if I change my job, meet the woman of my dreams or get deadly cancer then I will change what I am and switch from audio to Philatelia? Well, if so then don’t you think that while it not happen yet then it is good time to build the midbass horns? :-)

 oxric wrote:
So as I said at the beginning, I hope you do go ahead and prove all the doubters such as myself, wrong.
Rakesh, ironically I am the biggest doubter but it is not about the prove anything to anybody but about getting the very specific Sound that I have in my mind. No one has any idea how exactly I know what Sound I would like to get from my midbass horns. I have so precise vision of it that sometime I ask myself why do I need it – I already have it in my head. Still, your can’t imagine how much simple humane pleasure to be able to invoke THAT sound by simply pressing a button on a remote control. Will I be able to get THAT sound with the help of my midbass horn project is not the act of proving me to anybody but a design challenge to which I have no answer so far, even to myself.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 31
Post ID: 13771
Reply to: 13767
Basic's In Recording Techniques
fiogf49gjkf0d
When you set in your chair looking and listening 2 your sound system you are trying to create in your mind and your ears the illusion of instruments placement on the stage in front of you, to make it more lifelike and real. So you putting horns behind your ears will take you out of what the recording engineer recorded in the first place. Examples a trombone frequency range 85Hz to 9500Hz, Male voice 100Hz to 8000Hz, the range you are looking for behind your ears and head with your mib bass horns is 45Hz to 200Hz. So part of your male voice that is always center of stage in front of you will be behind you out of phase. This is a fact and no argument. The only person that would argu these facts is the fool who thought about doing it in the first place and use money as no object for an excuse or saying someone is drunk when he does not drink.   Preaching Horn Religion    MSAUDIO
06-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 13772
Reply to: 13771
It has nothing to do with Recording Techniques.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 msaudio wrote:
When you set in your chair looking and listening 2 your sound system you are trying to create in your mind and your ears the illusion of instruments placement on the stage in front of you, to make it more lifelike and real. So you putting horns behind your ears will take you out of what the recording engineer recorded in the first place. Examples a trombone frequency range 85Hz to 9500Hz, Male voice 100Hz to 8000Hz, the range you are looking for behind your ears and head with your mib bass horns is 45Hz to 200Hz. So part of your male voice that is always center of stage in front of you will be behind you out of phase. This is a fact and no argument. The only person that would argu these facts is the fool who thought about doing it in the first place and use money as no object for an excuse or saying someone is drunk when he does not drink. 
Ok, we moved from “accusation” in time miss-alignment and HF directivity to the accusation of the absolute phase problems. The absolute phase discrepancies between front and back speakers is a reasonable concern to be “scared” but if you look a bit deeper into it then it would become obvious that it is not the subject to worry.  I would explain it to you but you insist that the person who argues with you is a fool and I do not want to be the one. If the thing you say you say sober then it only worse to you.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 13776
Reply to: 13744
Mid-bass horn; thoughts on materials
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:

"...The material itself – what to use. I am wide open from any type of wood to synthetic panels (like cement panels). Perhaps it might be a combination of organic and synthetic layers..."

I realize you won't be doing the work yourself, but this approach to the project may be of interest.

The process will be a lot easier and the results more precise if you start with a good CAD model of the horn including its supporting structure. From there you can have full-scale plots printed to use when cutting the wood for the structure. Get several copies and mount them directly to the sheets of plywood (use 3M Super 77 spray glue; don't wast time with anything else).

For the curved wall(s), I would start by making an external webbed structure from 3/4" plywood, having both longitudinal (along the horn's firing axis), and transverse sections. I would put the max distance between sections at no more than 12" on center. This structure will depict the final inner surface of the horn, less thickness of the material it will support, so obviously you'll want to deduct wall thickness (no problem in the CAD model).

With the structure built, on its convex side, fit 1/8" thick sheets of coarse-grained plywood (cheaper than fine-grained), screwed and glued, followed by laminating successive sheets of the same thin plywood. For the final lamination, as it will be the part that is seen, use 1/8" fine-grained plywood; it will be a lot easier to finish. The webbed structure can be designed so that it bolts to the structures of the horn's other walls. For the flat walls, I would build them in the same way, but as thay are flat and more prone to resonate, I'd make their supporting structure even more robust or increase the number of laminations.

If necessary, resonances can addressed by isolating the horn's walls from each other; In this case, avoid bolting them togther. My upper-bass horns have felt "gaskets" between all joint planes; my mid-bass horns incorporate provisoins for the same. I have to say, unless you have to get the horn through a door, I would not slice it into sections cut across its firing axis, as this will entail more work.

If you know someone with the skill to work with plaster (old-school plaster, not drywall), this would be another option; it is quick and materials are very inexpensive, allowing you to make the horn as thick as you want, but in general plaster is less likely to resonate. Also, "radiused" corners and transitions involving compound curves are no problem.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 34
Post ID: 13777
Reply to: 13767
How does this phase work?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I hope this is on-topic.

I want to understand more about effect of phase on audio.

There is a product, ZVOX, which is alternative to 5.1 surround for home movies. It is stereo system, but it has phase settings (which you can adjust) that make soundstage wider, or more narrow and focused. If you want more dialogue, you use phase to make sound field narrower, if you want "surround feel" without wires you use phase to spread everything out.

This is not about the benefits or problems with ZVOX, this is about how to use phase to narrow or widen sound stage (and by extension, impact of random phase, slightly out of phase etc.)

I am imaging amp that, when level goes up, automatically uses phase to widen sound field, and when level/content goes down, narrows it. I think it would be intersting, and it made me think of Lamm Factor X which you have mentioned Romy.
06-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 13778
Reply to: 13597
Some very raw numbers
fiogf49gjkf0d
I ran today some numbers for the triangle horns. In the best case scenario I hope my attic would allow me to make two triangular horns 4 by 6 feet. I did some very preliminary math and concluded that 4X6 triangle will allow me to do what I want. Take a look and correct me if I am wrong.

The 4X6 feet makes 48” by 72 “or 1728 sq inch. In metric the surface will be 11148 sq cm. Remember this number – this is the key numbers – the surface of the obtainable mouth. The throat will be 8” or 20.3cm or 323.7 sq sm. Now, what kind of horn I can build between 20.3cm throat and 11148 sq cm mouth? It will all depend of what size horns I would go. It would be nice to have ½ size but I am not sure that it would be smart. The long side of my horn will ne loaded directly to the ceiling, so it is very possible that ¼ horn will do very nice. So, for ¼ of size I can with this moue get 45Hz. I calculated the exponential profile with a minor hyperbolic inflection of 0.7. According to calculation the target surface mouth for such a 45Hz horn will be 11780 sq cm, which is very close to my 11148 sq cm. So, it will be let say 47Hz horn – very nice. This horn will not be too long as well – just 238 s cm or 7.8 feet. I sound very manageable if I did not make any mistakes.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 13779
Reply to: 13778
Full-time quarter-space environment
fiogf49gjkf0d
To my understanding, taken individually, your attic horns would be more obviously working in a half-space environment. For any output that is common to both the L and R channels (some in the case of stereo recordings and all in the case of mono), they would effectively be working as a single horn, in which case they could be considered to be working in a quarter-space environment. To ensure a full-time quarter space environment you could extend the dividing wall (the wall between the two horns) out along the apex of the ceiling. This will not ruin your living room if the dividing plane were made from a single suspended piece of plate glass, without a frame.

Does your attic offer the possibility to make the horns longer?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 13780
Reply to: 13779
To know how I can “cheat”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
To my understanding, taken individually, your attic horns would be more obviously working in a half-space environment. For any output that is common to both the L and R channels (some in the case of stereo recordings and all in the case of mono), they would effectively be working as a single horn, in which case they could be considered to be working in a quarter-space environment. To ensure a full-time quarter space environment you could extend the dividing wall (the wall between the two horns) out along the apex of the ceiling. This will not ruin your living room if the dividing plane were made from a single suspended piece of plate glass, without a frame.

Yes, this is very good point and I have thought about it. From a larger perspective I do not like the whole idea of the horns sitting on the same wall, but it is what it is so far.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Does your attic offer the possibility to make the horns longer?

Yes, I have pretty much unlimited depth of the attic and I am planning to make horns longer then calculated. To make judgment about it I would need to know what kind horn it will be (mouth size) and what kind free air resonance I will be able to get from my Vitavox 15” drivers. Then I will know what will be the length of the horn and knowing the arrival time from that calculated length I will know how I can cheat with the horn depth.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
msaudio
Posts 45
Joined on 12-09-2009

Post #: 38
Post ID: 13783
Reply to: 13780
Mid Bass Project
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jbl came out with a new type of horn design a few year back and it looked like it had alot of good features. The top wall of the horn was curved up while the bottom wall was curved up then down very steep and it was still a 93-46 degree horn. You could use these features and it could correct a lot of resonance problems with the horns that most people use. With the narrow bandwidth you are going to use, you might get away with a single horn with both of your 15 inch woofers mounted on the same baffle, but used in stereo mode. This will give you more room to increase the size and lenght of the single horn, but i would not use myself above 80 Hz. I will help instead of badmouth your project because after it is compleat you could still use for low bass, if your not happy with it. I have no idea of the sqaure footage in your attic, but a good idea would be to leave the back of the baffle open to the attic and use it for your inclosure. make a triangle baffle from wall to ceiling and seal it for your back presure. This also helps for weight displacement so you won't have no sagging in your ceiling.   Preaching Horn Religion   MSAUDIO
06-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 13789
Reply to: 13597
My midbass project: what I do not like.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I still do not know if it will be doing at in my attic and I already bitch that I do not like something. Well, it is me…

Considering the cost, objectives and the level how my midbass horn will be implemented (if they will) one could feel that it will be some kind of ultimate solution. Yes, hope for the type of the driver and for the bandwidth I intend to use it will be as good solution as it would get. In addition it will be some amazingly unavailable characteristics – be time aligned and be invisible in the room. Presumably that it will be built properly then will this solution be something that I feel absolutely comfortable? I would say not and I would like to name a few problems that I see with my ultimate solution.

I am wild about the triangular shape of the horn. I am OK with triangular mouth but I do not know if I like the triangular rest of the horn. Sure I will calculate the surface area triangular transition but I still am not crazy about it. I would be much more comfortable with pentagon, on fact I am thinking to run pentagon to 2/3 of the horn and then do transition to triangular mouth. No matter what I might do it will be not as elegant as I would like it to be.

In my triangular horn one side will be flat, it mean the curve will be written but two other side of the triangle. I guess it is fine but it is not what I would like it to be – it will be fun to have symmetric horn, even though in midbass it might be irrelevant.

I very much do not like the fact the midbass source from left and right will be so close located. I would be MUCH more welcomed to the idea of “right left” position of the midbass horns. Sure, then they will be VERY visible if the area time-aligned and it will annul the invisible objectives of my project… but it would sound much more interesting from imaging perspective.

I very much do not like that the midbass source will be INSIDE of the MF islands. This is a major violation of my Macondo Acxioms and I am not happy about it. I am considering making the negative tilt to the horns but I do not know how it will be effective.

They are the few things juts on specks that I do not like in my midbass project. The only contra-argument I have is concealment of the perspective midbass horn in my room decor. But to say honestly, if I look in the very depth of my soil then there is a light of hope trembling in there. The hope is that my carpenter would give me the bad news that the midbass horn might not be built in attic. This would force me to find other location for my midbass… and I hopefully to make it with less audio compromises. Sure it will be uglier then and it will make my home to look much more nerdy then it is… I want it and I do not.

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 13798
Reply to: 13746
How to drive a long cable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
If I succeed to make my midbass horn at attic then I will face another problem that I do not know how to address at this point. The horns will be powered from Melquiades bass channels – it means it will use a good 70 feet speaker cable. If I go with Copper wire then it will have per foot:

4 ga  - .000292
6 ga  -   .000465
8 ga   -  .000739
10 ga  - .00118
12 ga  -  .00187
14 ga  - .00297
 
Let presume that I will go for 12ga cable it means that I will have: 0. 00187 * 70 = 0.139R. This permanent impedance is a bit bothers me. It is not the impedance distributed in the secondary of the output transformer but it I impedance that voice coil get increased. This perm impedance only adds compression to the sound of driver. It is very possible that for my 16R driver the .1R will be negligible but who knows how much negligible is negligible. I am a bit afraid to go with thicker wire as it usually comes with less interesting upper bass – the sound feels like become “hollow”. Sure, it possible to get involved in the cabling wars then, and I am sure I will. What are the alternatives? To run a long line level interconnect and to put the amps on attic? To fire-dangers in my view… I was thinking to do it with fire sensor above the amps in attic and close circuit TV monitor but I kind of getting more complicated then I would like it to be… 

As I mention above the issue with long 70 feet speaker cable is something that makes me to think. If I run a double or triple run of cable (to keep impedance lower) then even if I go with domestic 8Ga solid core copper wire from Home Depot then we are talking about a few hundred dollars. A few hundred dollars might not be a big price to pay for speaker cable but it is ONLY of I use it. In my case I do not know how 70 feet of wire will sound and I feel to spend few hundred dollars (multiple times) just to try it would be too expensive.  My leading idea is to go got a twisted two pairs of magnetic wire, the one that transformers are made from. If I go for 8G double wire per run then it might be OK as it will have the lowest isolation and therefore the lowest capacitance. Then I ask myself – why shall I worry about capacitance if my channel will care only up to 180hz?

The digest dilemma that I am thinking not and have no answer is how to powers this long 70 feet speaker cable.  We know that a step up transformers with very low current in primary do not do well sonically to drive long cables. The Melquiades’ output transformer is step down transformer – it trades voltage for current. So, presumably it would not be a big deal for the Melquiades’ top see another 0.2R in voice coil of the load. However, this 0.2R is not active impedance distributed in the magnetic gap but a static DC resistance that does not participate in what driver does. I’m afraid that it might create thermal compression. It is not to mention that a relatively low voltage will be sending across the 70 feet speaker cable.

So, I wonder if it worth for me to use the same techniques with my midbass cheval as I use with my tweeter and to put an amp’s output transformer on the speaker side. The presumed benefits are that higher AC voltage will be send across the long 70 feet speaker cable, the cable will be biased with DC from output tube’s anode and the most important is that DCR of the 70 feet speaker will be added not to OPT’s secondary (that has own DCR of fraction of Ohm) but to primary (that has own DCR of 20R). BTW, in case of use the OPT on the speaker side I would not need to go for a crazy Ga number for the 70 feet speaker cable and I will be juts my B+ long cable. The negative think is that the transformer primary will have loooooooooooong path to ground and I am not sure that it is a good think.

I do not have a decision yet and keep thinking about it.
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 13802
Reply to: 13798
Personal Bias
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, in this situation, 70' of 8 ga. cable is effectively a variable reactive load and a sink. If nothing else, voltage drop will play a part here, 8 ga. notwithstanding. Whatever you use to span a gap like that will probably need to be biased to keep the line load itself +/- constant, especially considering the small, dedicated-type amps you plan to use. But it's not like you're re-inventing the wheel, here. This sort of run is routine for concert venues, studios, and the like, and the folks who do this day in and day out have straightforward ways of dealing with it. Sure, you will have much more complex demands, but why not start with a solid base? I do like the heavy magnet wire... for AC cords...

Best regards,
Paul S
06-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 13827
Reply to: 13597
There were no big red flags
fiogf49gjkf0d
My carpenters went to attic, cut a few walls in there and research the possibility to do the project. His sentiment was that the project is double and today he will give me the exact dimensions that are available for my use. Based upon the space I have for my disposal I will conclude what kind horns might be made and will start the final calculations. So, there were no big red flags and it will be no major reconstruction of removing roof of anything like that. That is very promising new and I am very enthusiastic.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 13828
Reply to: 13597
The Swidish 30Hz
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not like the construction he did but I love the picture of this horn at the sealing of some kind of bar.

http://www.minhembio.com/The_rose/122971

Will I be look as happy as this guy is after I go over my project?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 13830
Reply to: 13827
Who world believe!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would never believe that I would face this problem. My carpenter measured up all my space and give me a verdict that he can put in there two mouths 4 by 6 feet with a foot and a have between them. That is it and that was exactly what I would like to hear. So, I begin to do some circulation and I faced a problem: I have too much space. That is the complain that I did not hear a lot from the people who are trying to make bass horns. However, take a look at the numbers.

An 8” throat would give ¼ size of 45Hz horn with .7 hyperbolic dent at 238cm or 7.8 feet. This is very short horn and it will not give me the proper time alignment. I need longer horn but how can I do it. I can’t go for larger mouth and I do not want to go for shaper profile. I would like do not go for 50Hz and lover the horn size to 1/3. The only reasonable way to get longer horn is to shrink throat. So, the 7” throat would make the same horn to be 8.3 feet. The 7” throat would make the same horn to be 9 feet. The 5” throat would make the same horn to be 9.7 feet. I think the 7” throat should NEAR acceptable to me – the driver is still is a big ass 15” incher.

The 7” throat is 17.8cm and the surface of the throat will be 249 sq cm. The horn will be 5.54M or 100 inch long.  The 100 inch long and 7” throat are cool whole numbers and considering that I was born on 7/7 then it might be a sign. Still, I would never think that I would feel that my horn is too short oir have any motivation to make it artificially longer.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 45
Post ID: 13831
Reply to: 13830
Good news!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Roman!

Glad... VERY glad your sincere enthusiasm indicates you're near to reach your VERY goal: natural-sounding, true, full horn low-end in yr. home!
God bless carpenters, acoustic, math... and, why not, the Cat;-)

Keep us ALL informed about proceedings.




"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
06-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 13832
Reply to: 13830
Two open questions.
fiogf49gjkf0d

This weekend I am starting to draw the sketch and the preliminary building plan for my midbass horns. I initially thought to recruit somebody who have done it to help me with plan but after consulting with a few people I feel confident that I have all necessary skills and knowledge to do the job myself. I will be posting all information at my site, whoever feel to comment or to criticize it as I go along, please do so.

The whole project is more or less clear in my mind but there are two questions with which I am not settled.

1)  Where to buy inexpensive birch plywood? There are American, Canadian, Russian and Chinese birch plywood. I would like to go with Russian – much better quality, but it got pricy nowadays. I would like to pay for ¾ sheets of 4 by 8 no more than $40-$45 in case of mass buy. If any of you know in your jurisdictions a sores to get cheap Baltic birch then let me know – I might arrange shipping. Still, I would like to get the plywood in New England and to pick up it locally

2)   The throat transition piece – I do not have a clear image how to do it. The throat will be 7” circle, then it will be a circular pipe of very low opening rate (like all hyperbolic it almost parallel in the beginning), then it will be gradual transition to triangular shape. The whole transition will take no more than a foot long and I see a very clear how it will be. What I do not know is how to make it: material, construction techniques, way to join it with the rest of the horn, etc etc etc… My leading idea to make it from concrete and while the cement did not solidify yet to place some stands in the concrete. How to mold the complex transition piece I do not know yet. I can draw it but I do not know how to make it. I will entertain any suggestions.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

PS: Anybody can advise good and free software to use for building plans?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 47
Post ID: 13833
Reply to: 13832
Transition piece
fiogf49gjkf0d

Can't help with the plywood source , I'd like to buy some for myself for that price . Transition piece I'd do from stacked plywood layers screwed and glued together and cut with jigsaw. The way John Hasquin built your upperbass horns .He posted the tutorial somewhere on the DIY, orr AA site. The one or two pieces when the shape changes from round to triangular would have to filed by hand. Or if you want to be really precise you could order (I think so) a ready to go pieces form Jeffrey Jackson .He built a CNC router and I don't think it would be a problem to make such project. You can make really massive throat piece that way. The connection to main horn would be a wooden collar/flange on the main horn attached to throat pieces with dowels and long screws. Regards, W

06-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 13834
Reply to: 13597
About my horn skeleton.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here I would like to share some basic ideas about the skeleton of the horn. This is just a view from 50.000 feet but it will give some illustration what is brewing in my mind.

The one side of the triangular horn will be flat and will sit at level of the house sealing (attic floor). Two other sides of the triangular horn are curved. They are not continuously curved (I do not think I need to bend if for such a low frequency). They rather are a sequence of 7-12 flat panels (circle’s chords) that are mounded at different angle and by changing the angle they shape the hyperbolic curve.

Here are my more or less final circulations in metric: Hyperbolic at 0.6, Throat = 249cm (7' diameter), 45Hz, ¼ size

Distance

Area

0.0

249.0

1.0

251.5

2.0

254.0

3.0

256.6

4.0

259.2

5.0

261.9

6.0

264.6

7.0

267.4

8.0

270.2

9.0

273.0

10.0

276.0

11.0

278.9

12.0

282.0

13.0

285.1

14.0

288.2

15.0

291.4

16.0

294.6

17.0

298.0

18.0

301.3

19.0

304.8

20.0

308.2

21.0

311.8

22.0

315.4

23.0

319.1

24.0

322.8

25.0

326.6

26.0

330.5

27.0

334.5

28.0

338.5

29.0

342.6

30.0

346.7

31.0

350.9

32.0

355.2

33.0

359.6

34.0

364.1

35.0

368.6

36.0

373.2

37.0

377.9

38.0

382.6

39.0

387.5

40.0

392.4

41.0

397.4

42.0

402.5

43.0

407.7

44.0

413.0

45.0

418.4

46.0

423.8

47.0

429.4

48.0

435.0

49.0

440.7

50.0

446.6

51.0

452.5

52.0

458.6

53.0

464.7

54.0

470.9

55.0

477.3

56.0

483.8

57.0

490.3

58.0

497.0

59.0

503.8

60.0

510.7

61.0

517.7

62.0

524.9

63.0

532.1

64.0

539.5

65.0

547.0

66.0

554.6

67.0

562.4

68.0

570.3

69.0

578.3

70.0

586.5

71.0

594.8

72.0

603.2

73.0

611.8

74.0

620.5

75.0

629.4

76.0

638.4

77.0

647.6

78.0

656.9

79.0

666.3

80.0

676.0

81.0

685.8

82.0

695.7

83.0

705.9

84.0

716.2

85.0

726.6

86.0

737.3

87.0

748.1

88.0

759.1

89.0

770.3

90.0

781.6

91.0

793.2

92.0

805.0

93.0

816.9

94.0

829.0

95.0

841.4

96.0

854.0

97.0

866.7

98.0

879.7

99.0

892.9

100.0

906.3

101.0

919.9

102.0

933.8

103.0

947.9

104.0

962.2

105.0

976.8

106.0

991.6

107.0

1006.7

108.0

1022.0

109.0

1037.5

110.0

1053.4

111.0

1069.4

112.0

1085.8

113.0

1102.4

114.0

1119.3

115.0

1136.5

116.0

1154.0

117.0

1171.7

118.0

1189.8

119.0

1208.1

120.0

1226.8

121.0

1245.8

122.0

1265.0

123.0

1284.6

124.0

1304.6

125.0

1324.8

126.0

1345.4

127.0

1366.4

128.0

1387.6

129.0

1409.3

130.0

1431.3

131.0

1453.7

132.0

1476.4

133.0

1499.5

134.0

1523.0

135.0

1546.9

136.0

1571.2

137.0

1595.8

138.0

1620.9

139.0

1646.5

140.0

1672.4

141.0

1698.8

142.0

1725.6

143.0

1752.8

144.0

1780.5

145.0

1808.7

146.0

1837.3

147.0

1866.4

148.0

1896.0

149.0

1926.1

150.0

1956.6

151.0

1987.7

152.0

2019.3

153.0

2051.4

154.0

2084.1

155.0

2117.3

156.0

2151.0

157.0

2185.3

158.0

2220.2

159.0

2255.7

160.0

2291.7

161.0

2328.3

162.0

2365.6

163.0

2403.5

164.0

2441.9

165.0

2481.1

166.0

2520.9

167.0

2561.3

168.0

2602.4

169.0

2644.2

170.0

2686.7

171.0

2729.9

172.0

2773.8

173.0

2818.4

174.0

2863.8

175.0

2909.9

176.0

2956.8

177.0

3004.5

178.0

3052.9

179.0

3102.2

180.0

3152.3

181.0

3203.2

182.0

3254.9

183.0

3307.5

184.0

3361.0

185.0

3415.4

186.0

3470.7

187.0

3526.9

188.0

3584.0

189.0

3642.0

190.0

3701.1

191.0

3761.1

192.0

3822.1

193.0

3884.1

194.0

3947.1

195.0

4011.2

196.0

4076.4

197.0

4142.6

198.0

4209.9

199.0

4278.4

200.0

4348.0

201.0

4418.7

202.0

4490.6

203.0

4563.7

204.0

4638.0

205.0

4713.5

206.0

4790.3

207.0

4868.4

208.0

4947.8

209.0

5028.4

210.0

5110.4

211.0

5193.8

212.0

5278.6

213.0

5364.7

214.0

5452.3

215.0

5541.4

216.0

5631.9

217.0

5723.9

218.0

5817.4

219.0

5912.5

220.0

6009.2

221.0

6107.5

222.0

6207.3

223.0

6308.9

224.0

6412.1

225.0

6517.1

226.0

6623.8

227.0

6732.2

228.0

6842.5

229.0

6954.6

230.0

7068.5

231.0

7184.3

232.0

7302.1

233.0

7421.8

234.0

7543.5

235.0

7667.2

236.0

7792.9

237.0

7920.8

238.0

8050.7

239.0

8182.8

240.0

8317.1

241.0

8453.6

242.0

8592.4

243.0

8733.5

244.0

8876.9

245.0

9022.8

246.0

9171.0

247.0

9321.6

248.0

9474.8

249.0

9630.5

250.0

9788.8

251.0

9949.7

252.0

10113.3

253.0

10279.6

254.0

10448.7

255.0

10620.5

256.0

10795.2

257.0

10972.8

258.0

11153.4

259.0

11336.9

260.0

11523.5

261.0

11713.2



Since I would like to keep the proper hyperbolic curve then the bends in each curved side will be almost in logarithmic scale as hyperbolic curve changes a lot in the end of the profile. Here is some twist however. I would like to take advantage of my triangular shale and to make the first and second bendable surface to have asymmetrical bends (chords). If you look at the image then you will clearly see that chords on one side of the “bendable surfaces” are in the middle of the chord on another side. Doing this, I will increase smoothness of my opening. It will not be complicate to do it but it will be a bit pain in ass to circulate the sq area.

After a long contemplation about the material for the horn I have my leading idea of something that I call “Soft Shell Boat” approach. I did contemplated many different approaches, starting from very cheap and frugal (like most of the DIY Californians do) to very much overbuilt approach (two layers with sand between them). Considering my specific case and reasonable weight limitation on my attic I think my “Soft Shell Boat” approach will work very nice. The idea is to build an inverted boat hull with ribs outside. The Soft Shell will be most likely ¾ Russian plywood birches. Each connection between the chords will have before and after a set of ribs (brasses) made from 2x2 and 2x4 (asymmetrical). The 2x4 of the any nearby chords will be connected by 2x2 and 2x4 (asymmetrical as well).  The whole idea do not use very strong surface of the horn is to let the very massive ribs to care the load across the horn surface. If everything will go as I plane then it will be no more than one sq feet of plywood in free hanging mode.  The image below illustrates the idea for 4 chords (divisions between the chords are think black lines and the ribs are thick lines). For sake of simplicity the chords in the image are made with no angles.

MidbassHorn_skeleton1.JPG

Rgs, Romy the Cat




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 13835
Reply to: 13834
Transitions
fiogf49gjkf0d

Jessie has already shared the smartest approach to the transitional shapes. The idea is to build it up or cast the weird stuff, until you get to a shape/profile you can easily work with plywood.  You will NOT want to try to make curves with 3/4" birch ply, so use this for the straight walls and lay up thin ply layers over a frame for the curves.  The price of plywood is currently at a 2-year high.  Good luck finding good 3/4" birch ply under $60/4X8 sheet.  Some birch ply will edge shatter if nails are placed too near the edges, so be mindful of that.  I recommend pre-fitting and then gluing everything in addition to nailing with ring-shank nails.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 13836
Reply to: 13833
The Baltic Burch pricing
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Wojtek wrote:
Can't help with the plywood source , I'd like to buy some for myself for that price .

Well, it looks like the 4x8 feet sheet are more expensive abut I do not think that I would need them.  The average price of B-grade 4x8 Baltic Burch of ¾ is looks like $75. The sheets of 5x5 averagely looks like go for $50 and I think that 5x5 would be more mandible size for me. The best price I was able to find for a sheet 5x5 was $32 without bulk discount. (The discount kicks in at 33 sheets). So, I presume that it is possible to find the 18-20 sheets for $30 – this is the price that I am shooting for. My rational is that it is $32 in California (Allied Veneer) but the Baltic Burch is shipped to US from East cost. So, I would like to find a local shop (preferably in New Hampshire where there are no sales tax) where I would pick the wood up.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  62274  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  199753  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1153839  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1922108  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  870599  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1530162  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  Good highs...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     148  973185  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  51870  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12554  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  137753  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11858  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  86890  06-13-2011
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