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04-17-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 930
Reply to: 930
Disregard the industry participants.

A few days ago I spoke with a guy that I know form LA who told me about a story about his good friend who started many years ago an audio business in CA. He said that the guy initially hag a genuine interest in sound and music but since years pass by the guy got converted into a completely dead and boring audio retailer with whom practically imposable even to talk about sound.  I do not know the guy and we all know countless stories like this. However, after this conversation something suddenly made me to look at the circle of people that I personally know, the people who plugged in one way or another way into audio industry.

I have been observing the high-end audio industry sine 1994 (before I “did audio” but luckily I did not know about the industry existence). I am trying to recall the high-end industry human engagements that I was involved, the quality of those engagements and the “load” of those relationships. My primary attention in that assessment of that “load” was the people’s understanding of audio as an expressive and exploring means and thier ability to communicate about thier understanding with others.

An interesting observation I made. Each single person I know or knew, who in one or another way plugged into industry (manufacturers, designers, dealers, distributors, marketing folks, retails, free-lance heater, publishers and so on…), was boring like hell and was absolutely impotent to express any view on audio that would not be predictable, banal and severally conditions. It is interesting that their zombie-reaction happened about a very broad spectrum of audio subjects. Those people when they approach to a subject they do not really expose data or facts to a naturally random consciousness but they begin to manipulate their own minds among own fears with attempt to manage damage control. As the result this expression and actions were always highly predictable, highly none-real with a complete luck of any character.

I generally have a rule do no engage myself in talk about audio with any industry players - thier level and ability of understand the subjects is superbly primitive and dealing with then is really a waste of time. I rather prefer they to share with me all newest rumors “who did who in the industry” and after allowing to those Morons a minor patronizing of myself I let them go. Really, there is nothing further to talk with them, to expect from them or to teach them. They are, by venture of own professional fears, completely disqualified themselves from any ability to become a valuable asset in audio thinking.

So, boys and girls, a free advise for you that would save you a lot of time and disappointments. When you meet a person from mouth of whom you pick the words like: loudspeakers, amplifiers, music reproduction or any other semantics of audio jargon than the very first thing you shell do would be learn how the person related to audio industry. If s/he “were in” then tap the person’s shoulder saying: “It is OK” and then…. walk.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-20-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 932
Reply to: 930
Re: perhaps too sweeping a generalisation
I work in the audio industry. I know several others who are in the same position. What our roles are within the companies we work for may not necessarily indicate our own views or preferences regarding what we consider to be good equipment. My company makes relatively low cost loudspeakers. I don't use them at home. That's not because I don't like them. The type of speakers or electronics I actually prefer are probably not commercially viable. The job allows me to pay for a family and house, keep abreast of developments in the industry, visit foreign shows and meet/hear interesting people and systems. I don't see why it should be assumed that because someone works in the audio industry their opinions and experiences are worthless, although I accept that in many cases it might be true. I would agree that their opinions are often worth no more than than those of anyone else who is merely interested in audio. However, I wouldn't say these opinions were always less justified.

Incidentally, it might also be said that it is more difficult to design and manufacture an outstanding pair of $200 speakers than it is to make a cost no object design. The constraints and competition at that level are actually far harder to overcome.

best regards,

Guy
04-22-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 941
Reply to: 932
The Industry involvement as a Mind-virus...

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Sure, it is a sweeping generalization but because it’s a sweeping generalization it dose not mean that this generalization is a faulty one.  I would be nice to see behind the audio–primitivism of the industry judgments the burden of the specific individuals and do not make any generalizations. However, if to look deeper then it would be not difficult to recognize that the industry involvement is like a censer 's metastases eats alive a person’s consciousness and eventually converts his/her audio awareness into a pile of nothingness. Each single industry participant that I'm personally familiar with, is in one degree of another is in his/her way to this audio-nothingness and ... all of this converts the "sweeping generalization" into a sweeping observation.

Incidentally, I would like to mention that this site is about the “advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques” and I do not think that anywhere before within this site the concept of “constraints and competition at that level” was mentioned. This hierarchly-inslaved idea of a designation of accomplishments to reimbursements is a subject that was develop purely within the industry thinking. From the place where I stay this thinking must not be used at all.

I perfectly fine if someone would disagree with my assessment of the industry participants audio-potency but I do not deal with “believe systems” but with facts and the facts to which I am exposed suggest me that my generalization is very accurate: a few years of industry enrolment unavoidably convert a person form being a person intoto am empty zombie… unless a cure from the “censer” will be find…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 943
Reply to: 941
Re: Why just the industry, why not everyone?
Hi Romy,

Ok why be so specific. I don't want to be seen defending participants in the audio industry. However, why stop there? What about the morons who are interested in audio and whose money keeps the industry morons in employment. 99% of those people are also misguided fools as well. I get to talk to alot of them. And why stop there? The rest of the human race who know little of and care less about sound reproduction. They're even worse. Don't ever go to them for advice. In fact don't talk to anyone about it. If they disagree with you they are simply trying to mislead you and therefore they should be avoided. If they agree with you they are simply sheep.

Back in the real world, I find that the majority of people do enjoy music but don't care much what they listen to it on. They certainly aren't usually interested in spending large amounts of money on equipment on which it can be replayed well. Most, when exposed to supposedly superior 'high end' audio aren't able to discriminate much difference between that and well designed budget components. The premium usually doesn't seem worth paying. This is why there is a continued decline in the fortunes of the so called 'serious' manufacturers. Most people would rather spend their money on a plasma tv, a better computer, a new SUV.
 
I agree with this site's ambition to advance the knowledge and understanding of sound reproduction. However I think you're being a little naive if you think that "the concept of “constraints and competition" hasn't been applied to much if not all of the manufactured audio equipment you use. Your chosen CD player, Turntable, arms, cartridges, speaker components were all produced under the constraints of cost. All could probably been improved had more money been lavished on their development and manufacture. Budget loudspeakers are no different. Nothing I know of, that is commercially manufactured, is perfect and therefore unimprovable. The only way to escape this 'industry thinking' is to build all of your own components to your own specification regardless of cost. Where I can, this is what I try to do. This is what you are also doing with your speakers and now amplification. Many users of this site also seem to be doing the same. The only problem I can see in the long term is that as each customises their own system to their own particular tastes discussion of person X's speakers will be increasingly irrelevant to person Y while person Y's amplifier means nothing to person Z. Unless two people are using the same component (or tasting the same wine) their discussion of its merits has little worth.

Most people don't care enough to do this. I don't care enough about wine to grow my own grapes and make my own. (I do make my own beer though!) I don't understand why the audio industry fills you with such venom. It's no worse than the car industry or the fashion industry. It supplies product at a wide range of prices and if a manufacturer is clever enough to produce an enjoable sounding cd player or pair of speakers at a reasonable price they should be congratulated not despised.  If you really want to get angry with the audio industry have a go your homeboys, Bose, the ultimate triumph of marketing over content/quality.

best regards,

Guy
04-24-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 944
Reply to: 943
I’m not talking abstractive.

Guy,

I think you misunderstood or misapply the main point that I was trying to make in my reply. The problem with the participants in the audio industry is not within thier own personal level of Moronity (although is it very frequently is the case) but with their desire AND necessity to conform to the absurd conventions that the industry/environment have created around itself. Thos “conventions” affect consciousness of an industry participant and transform it into a precompiled set of awareness-algorithms. As the result, the person does not operate with his awareness of according to his feeling but s/he juts unknowingly complies with certain predispositions: conform=benefit vs not conform = fear. Yes, many other social institutions use the same mechanism of mind control but in the audio industry it has an extra ugly appearance due to the industry total isolations and compile luck of any liability and social attention. This is why in this industry the companies allow themselves to do what would be absolutely unspeakable that in many other industries.

So, what I was talking was how the industry (as a composite awareness) unavoidably and irretrievably affects a person. The introvertial degradation of an industry participant is the key in here and this is why I suggested that am industry player is not valuable asset in a serious audio thinking. I made this observation by observing a great number of different industry players, including my own friends and even including … myself. Over the tine I was approached to one of other approximation to play a certain roles in the industry and I have seen how my own thinking and my own references, logic, motivation and reasoning were changing. I was not pleased with those “new” changes and with the direction it was taking.

Evan when I rarely sell some of my old personal audio items I have usually difficulties to do so. I remember I was selling one quite expansive item and the guy asked a superbly actuate question that would requite an answer after which a buyer should walk if he is not a Moron. What do you think I answered and how do you feel I felt after this, yes, the guy bought this quite expensive item… So, why should we put themselves in a position of default lying, deception, misrepresentation and the celebration of a happy fact the today’s buyer turn out to be less intelligent then it should be. Isn’t it better to surround ourselves with associates that we appreciate and respect (I hope you know how many industry players consider the thier customers/subscribers/readers are juts a “wasted idiots”). The High End Audio Industry is bult on the concepts of discovering a Moron, developing it to irreversible state and keeping milking that bred Moronity. Ironically the process backfires to the player and the gatekeepers become the victims of ….themselves. This why I suggested discarding the industry players as we discard AIDS or Hepatitis patients form blood donation. 


 guy sergeant wrote:
The only way to escape this 'industry thinking' is to build all of your own components to your own specification regardless of cost.

I would disagree with it. There is a LOT of fundamental problem in DIY movement and I do not see anything wrong if a manufacture manufactures a product. Interesting that the best products in Audio were not made because of the industry but despite of the industry….

 guy sergeant wrote:
I don't understand why the audio industry fills you with such venom.

I would not call it venom but rather disrespect. My neglect and disregard of the industry is well known and I do have quite substantial and tangible reasons. I do not know why you wiling to declare my reasons as a venom.

 guy sergeant wrote:
It's no worse than the car industry or the fashion industry. It supplies product at a wide range of prices and if a manufacturer is clever enough to produce an enjoable sounding cd player or pair of speakers at a reasonable price they should be congratulated not despised.  If you really want to get angry with the audio industry have a go your homeboys, Bose, the ultimate triumph of marketing over content/quality.

Hm, you again and again hit the price concept but I do not think I ever mention it or blame the industry for high or for low prices. Also, I have no problems with Bose and with what they do. I think you miss something from what I meant to say.

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 1007
Reply to: 944
Re: I’m not talking abstractive.
Hi Guy, Romy, all


 Romy the Cat wrote:

 guy sergeant wrote:
The only way to escape this 'industry thinking' is to build all of your own components to your own specification regardless of cost.

I would disagree with it. There is a LOT of fundamental problem in DIY movement and I do not see anything wrong if a manufacture manufactures a product.


Alltough I understand both the scepticism against both the
so-called DIY-movement and the audio industry
(the industry is a many headed monster, tho - without the industry I/we wouldn't be here ) ,
I strongly agree with Guy's statement here;
the main reason I and many others DIY is that 99% of the comercial equipment is of no use to me/us. I have a need for the music in all it's glory, varts and all, to be delivered to me in the living-room . I don't know of much commercial equipment that will help me have that. Some comercial tools are very helpful, but , lets face it, most comercial stuff is dead, if seen in a musical sense.

cheers, Jan
05-17-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 1008
Reply to: 1007
There is no conflict: Commercial vs. DIY

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 slowmotion wrote:
Alltough I understand both the scepticism against both the
so-called DIY-movement and the audio industry
(the industry is a many headed monster, tho - without the industry I/we wouldn't be here ) ,
I strongly agree with Guy's statement here;
the main reason I and many others DIY is that 99% of the comercial equipment is of no use to me/us. I have a need for the music in all it's glory, varts and all, to be delivered to me in the living-room . I don't know of much commercial equipment that will help me have that. Some comercial tools are very helpful, but , lets face it, most comercial stuff is dead, if seen in a musical sense.
Well, as I told before I do not separate audio to commercial and DIY. The fact that audio is DIY means absolutely nothing and do not signify anything. The same is with the commercial products - the fact itself that it is commercial means nothing.

A “quality” of audio installation, would it be commercial or DIY, reflects only a level of the listener’s evolvement into audio demands and in music reproduction…. and NOTHING else. Audio might be only as good as the person can appreciate it. I know, a lot of people believe that “quality” of audio is restricted by exposure or finance but it is incorrect. We peruse in audio the virtual reflections of our perception how music should sound. What I learn was that it is not the capacities to accomplish the task but rather the totally absurd and primitive reference points of those virtual reflection prevent audiophiles to “get” sound in thier installations. I do not hate how most of the audiophiles’ system sound but I hate when audiophiles think or talk about audio and consequentially thier system sound according to what they have in their audio-empty heard…

An average DIY person spends huge amount of time and effort to conquest the technicality domain but it always happens with very sever compromise of that “virtual reflection reference point”. The commercial audio has own problems. Seemingly everything should be OK with the reference points among the professional manufacturers and they should be more progressed and developed audio thinkers, yes, sounds as it should be…. However, in reality the 99% of them are just accidental ignorant Morons who are completely clueless and with no real motives to do what they do (beside juts to keep their occupations). Furthermore, practically all commercial audio is preoccupied with prices, amount of sale, cut cost and the rest beauties of “business” where results, solutions and approaches are severally compromised, even it a person/company try to do something more or less “envelop pushing”. This all leads to a situation when neither commercial nor DIY audio has no answers by the means only of being just commercial or just DIY.

I personally observed in DIY the identical percentage of the negative results as I observed in commercial audio. I would even say that the commercial audio has a very slight higher successes ratio. Primary the successes in there derive from the exceptions or accidents. In DIY there are no exceptions or accidents and the successes derive from an evolvement of a particular person. Considering that most of home audio makers are just hobbyists it is not difficult to see what audio they are capable to build: it is not audio but juts Saturday hobbyist’s leisure. Also, some natural flows (there are certain rules) also removes the most interesting and capable DIY thinkers form the view of wide audio public and if a person do have some real home audio accomplishment, practical or theoretical, then you hardly would see the person in the audiophile circles as that circle become too primitive.

So, we are taking only about an audio solution that “fits a shoe”. Did it come from the commercial or from the DIY world is completely irrelevant, at least to me. I would personally prefer to deal with commercial “shoe fitting product”. Why? Because it leaves more time for the Real Audio. As far as I concern the Real Audio starts when the playback is done, up and running…

Rgs,
The Cat

PS: there was my thread-rant about the DIYers with the name: “About moronity of DIY Audio movement.”




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (7 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The most appalling audio types...  The most appalling audio types: personally over-vested...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  83176  06-15-2007
  »  New  Audio and Politic: a solution?..  A waste of perfectly good bullets...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  13781  07-16-2007
  »  New  Dialog with Industry Rain..  In his dedication to Boris Godunov.......  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  24287  10-08-2008
  »  New  Reading an official audio publication - TAS..  Yes, we are there...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  39231  09-06-2010
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