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  »  New  Swing hornspeaker of bd-design..  intern of the swing ...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  29946  12-10-2006
  »  New  The bogusness of the coaxial compression drivers?..  It’s not surprise that the BMS drivers sounded like mBS...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  47317  03-28-2007
09-15-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2854
Reply to: 2854
Orphean horns of bd design
hi Romy

my name is Angelo. I am swiss/italian, live in brazil the last 10 years . I grew up assisting my father buiding speakers and comercialize them in small numbers. I where listening for many years on Klipschorn replica with altec 416-8b woofer,  altec 288-16g driver on 1003b horn and coral h100 tweeters, with electronic crossover d23. I am  tired abought the limitations of this system, the horny sound of the horns, and want to start something new. I did read the last couple of days your post's, and confess, i learnd a lot. The best sound i remember, and never forgot, was at Holger Frommes Home, from Avantgarde Acoustic, the trios. I never heard something better. I visit Ale Acoustic in Japan, heard some crazy stuff over there ( system with 9m basshorn etc. ) but time alignment etc. was really a problem..... 
 
A view weeks ago i bought a pair of orphean horns from bd design,

 http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/forum_entry.php?id=10719&page=2&category=0&order=time

what do u think abought the bms4592nd coax compression drivers, and use it in one horn, for frequencies from 220hz up to 20khz ?
i intend to use it with klipschorn, but want to built a mid-bass horn, for frequencies from 100hz to 800hz ore so, and then use the orphean horn. At the meen time, i can get brazilian wood with 120cm diameter and found a company , wich has a lathe , so i could make the tractrix horns of one ore two woodblocks, no slices.

u will enjoy this site, quit interesting : http://www.hornfabrik-eder.de/

regards Angelo
09-15-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2855
Reply to: 2854
Avantgarde, BMS and Orphean.


Hello, Angelo

 angeloitacare wrote:
The best sound i remember, and never forgot, was at Holger Frommes Home, from Avantgarde Acoustic, the trios. I never heard something better.

Yes, Avantgarde can do it if the situation is right. I also visited Holger in Germany in 2000. He did not play music; I think he did not have his system up but I LOVED his sculpture. The phenomenal artwork! Generally Avantgarde are very problematic speakers, with a LOT of issues and that requires a lot of work to sound well.  (When I’m taking about Avantgarde I mean the Avantgarde Trios only, as the rest of the Avantgarde are terminally faulty and unusable). There was a lot of noise and hype about Avantgardes but I might testify, from my experience that that all that publicity was empty. I pearly listened dozens Avantgarde installation, those that were promoted as well performing and all of them were horrible. It was not as much problem of Avantgarde but rather the complete Moronity of the people who used them; it was obvious in each listening room. Still, I also witnessed the situations in two listening rooms when Avantgarde performed very well, when the necessary amount of efforts were spent.  Well, to me absolutely honest I have to say that it was very well but in the contemporary, hi-tech meaning of “definition of success”, if you know what I mean…. The Avantgarde are obviously not the speakers for mass consumption and not for mass-utilization. I think nowadays Avantgardes are gone. The Avantgarde’s success was a pure subject of Jim Smith, - the Avantgarde’s US distributor and since Avantgarde lost him the company have gone to dark. The Avantgarde’s today implementations are too pathetic to take them seriously. You were very lucky that you had a chanve to catch a verll performing Avantgarde installation. Trust me, not a lot of people out there ever herd well tempered Avantgardes…

 angeloitacare wrote:
I visit Ale Acoustic in Japan, heard some crazy stuff over there…

Actually if you have then write up some of your comments about Ale Acoustic. They are a Martian company, like Goto … There is a lot of rumors, snobbism and paranoia…. but there is no witnessed, well performing installations around…

 angeloitacare wrote:
A view weeks ago i bought a pair of orphean horns from bd design, what do u think abought the bms4592nd coax compression drivers, and use it in one horn, for frequencies from 220hz up to 20khz?

None of the horns are capable to do 220hz up to 20khz. It is direct violation of the nature of the horns as you have fundamentally compromised design. For higher frequency the 220hz is insultingly deep (with all negative consequences). I do not even mention the compromised deafragms and many other factors.  In Radiotron is clearly said the horn much not be use across wide frequency range but the audio people keep feeding themselves by illusions… I have no idea why… Regarding the BMS. I had two BMS drivers in 2000-2001. they are very nice made but unfortunately they had absolutely no sound. I mean they had great pressure but have some kind of immunity to tone. I was not able to get from them any color discrimination. They pushed juts a mass of gray pressure that was intolerable.  A few weeks got the infamies citrines at AA advertised to each other BMS driver. I posted a reply in there that of course was vandalized. I save my post and here it is:

“Hm, the BMS drivers? Unfortunately they have very narrow margin of application. The BMS drivers are nice if you build a sound reinforcement system that would be placed in a truck that blasts drams during those gays pride parades. The BMS drivers are good in Jewish weeding when father of the bride invited too many dentists and he wants that everyone at the table #126 hear his toasts. The BMS drivers are good for Ohio audio installations where the system owners use the dB of their playback to slaughter chickens, pigs, horses and visiting libertarians. They are also very useful in demolition landscaping as they make any living subject to fade. Unfortunately the BMS drivers completely are not useful for sound as they pump pressure instead of the content, and it is no surprise why they are being used in today’s White House pressroom.  BMS drivers have complete disregard to the tonal aspect of sound reproduction and they are a direct compromise of …anything. Yes, the BMS drivers are great to start at AA.”

Anyhow, prefabs you will be more lucky with BMS, I was not….

 angeloitacare wrote:
i intend to use it with klipschorn, but want to built a mid-bass horn, for frequencies from 100hz to 800hz ore so, and then use the orphean horn.

Angelo, I do not know Orphean horn well, but would it be possible that it is too large horn to work from 800hz? It looks more like 200Hz horn…. I do not have a reference of dimensions.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-16-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2860
Reply to: 2855
Re: Avantgarde, BMS and Orphean.

Hi Romy

a good sound in a room does not depend only on the speaker chain, but essencially also of the room acoustics. Probably many of the Trio systems didn’t sound right just because of that…. I was at Holgers Home in Lautersbach back in 94. He had then a basshorn not in modules,  like now, and  it did not go deep. The mid’s where imaging over,  ( sorry , I don’t have a good English vocabulary, I try do express myself the best I can ) lets say a piano did sound bigger, as it really does. I don’t know if the reason was the size of the horn. I was recently in Italy, and went to a hi-fi shop ( Di Prinzio ) and I did listen the first time a Tannoy Westminster. What a speaker !! Rarely I heard a speaker more natural sounding, and imaging was just awesome. It seemed I was not in front of a speaker, but listening a real concert. What made me think, is the small size of the horn for mid-high frequencies, from 1000 hz up. So your Macondo Horn for mid frequencies probably is the right size. I don’t know if the trio had this problem, of over imaging , because the horn may bee too big a little bit. The impression I had at this time of the duos, was that they sound horny.

Of course, Avantgarde with their price tag never will be for mass consumption. I offered Holger then to see If I could commercialize his horns in japan,  Do u know how much was the dealer price for a pair of trios at that time ?  9600 german marks…. Abought us$5.000,00 Compared to what they charge today….. their prices are really ridiculous. But if u compare with others, stays in line. I don’t think even the absolutely best horn system should  cost more than  between lets say 8 and 10th  us dollars. With that money, u can make great horns, buy the best drivers around, and bult up a wonderful  horn  system.

I went to Japan 5 times. There are actually 5 companies in Japan, witch deal with these exotic high-end drivers. YL audio, ALE ,  GOTO , and Onken. YL audio and Onken  does not exist anymore, as far as I know,  I was privileged to visit Kondo sans factory.  I have still a catalog from them, as probably only a view people know, Audio Note does produce also very exclusive high-end drivers and  woofers,  all with silver wiring. Probably they do not commercialize outside of Japan, because no market for that stuff. Mid bass  of  Kondos system was excellent, deep bass Kondo uses his 38cm woofer in a very big cabinet, goes really deep,  sound is warm, but not so fast. Overall very nice sound.  I visit also ALE factory near Yokohama. Its probably a one or two  man company, the owner produces  all drivers and horns in a very small factory. He worked 30 years ago at YL audio, as well as Goto san. they have the same background. I did go with him to listen a system outside of Tokyo. There are fotos of this system at this site: http://aca.gr/pop_goto_ale.htm It’s the five way reference system, with green drivers. I have pics of the bass horn behind, its straight 9m. I brought my own cds, and I had some with very deep bass. I was surprised, as the basshorn did not go very deep, and time delay was a problem, you actually hear that the soundsource is 9m behind you, and that is really bad. It can be imagined like you go to a deep well, and somebody is down there. When this person calls you from down there, you can notice that the source comes from far deep, at a view m of distance. The same happens with these long horns. So , definitely, not a good solution for good, deep bass. The rest of the system was fine. I don’t think that these exotic Japanese drivers are far better than more commercial drivers, like tad, altec, etc. Probably only the highest series of Goto, really crazy. I don’t believe that their exponential horns sound honky. Goto’s objective is to creat the most natural sound possible, and they where using a piano, playing it, and then comparing directly with their speakers. They know very well what they do, and I believe, there is no coloration at all. And, they do that for over 30years… These drivers are not expensive only in the states , but also in japan. Only a example. The 1260 ALE 100kg bass driver costs there 1.3 mio yen each, abought us $11.000,00 I think a subwoofer with good speakers, Iike  a audire 1808 should really sound better. Actually, I want to buy these, if u know who has a pair for sale ?

What guys like Bert Doppenberg of BD Design care of, is system integration. That’s why they try so much to have a pointsource. That’ one of the reasons why Tannoys sound so wonderful, and why Cabasse ore others experiment quit a long time around these solutions. I think this Is as much, ore even more important than time alignment. Bert did work quit a good time to make the BMS sound well, u did not read the story  in his forum abought it, but people who heard these drivers with his  horns  are quit amazed abought its capabilities. That’s why I bought these horns. I only believe a mid bass horn will be necessary, to have more body of the sound.

I enjoyed a lot your comments abought magico minis, and his horns. Do u know the woofer of the mini ?  It s a expolinear chassis (http://www.expolinear.de/ ) costs Euro$ 268,00 . His price tag is just ridiculous. The cost to built a speaker like this is not more than : scan speak tweeter  us 600 a pair. The woofers  also, 600 a pair, crossover and cabinet, may 1200 us, that’s total 2400 us. Why a speaker like this should be worth 22grant ?????? And in the interview Alon Wolf said, its Minis were cheap !!!  A consumer that pays that is just stupid.

I did not involve me with high-end for quit a long time. But my dream now is to create a horn speaker Wich is a simbiosis of good looking, and good sounding, at a fair price. And that may I could produce and commercialize as well.  A good alternative to Avantgardes, and Acapellas ( dinaudio drivers for 230 grant ? ) I believe your Macondo Horn must sound very well. But I would like to built something with commercially easy to get drivers, less esoteric.

Regards Angelo

09-16-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2861
Reply to: 2860
YL audio, ALE, GOTO, and Onken... good post.
 angeloitacare wrote:
Of course, Avantgarde with their price tag never will be for mass consumption. I offered Holger then to see If I could commercialize his horns in japan, Do u know how much was the dealer price for a pair of trios at that time ? 9600 german marks…. Abought us$5.000,00 Compared to what they charge today….. their prices are really ridiculous. But if u compare with others, stays in line. I don’t think even the absolutely best horn system should cost more than between lets say 8 and 10th us dollars. With that money, u can make great horns, buy the best drivers around, and bult up a wonderful horn system.
Well, prices is very secondary. The Avantgardes have own implantation and performing issuers hat this is more essential. Also, I disagree about your view of the prices. Whatever they cost is kind of irrelevant as if the process of sale properly organized then the price does not mater. As I undusted Jim Smith, the former US Avantgardes distributor sold tone of them. This idiotic market bares anything and swallows anything swallowable…. Actually why we are talking about the prices>….
 angeloitacare wrote:
I went to Japan 5 times. There are actually 5 companies in Japan, witch deal with these exotic high-end drivers. YL audio, ALE , GOTO , and Onken. YL audio and Onken does not exist anymore, as far as I know, I was privileged to visit Kondo sans factory. I have still a catalog from them, as probably only a view people know, Audio Note does produce also very exclusive high-end drivers and woofers, all with silver wiring. Probably they do not commercialize outside of Japan, because no market for that stuff. Mid bass of Kondos system was excellent, deep bass Kondo uses his 38cm woofer in a very big cabinet, goes really deep, sound is warm, but not so fast. Overall very nice sound. I visit also ALE factory near Yokohama. Its probably a one or two man company, the owner produces all drivers and horns in a very small factory. He worked 30 years ago at YL audio, as well as Goto san. they have the same background. I did go with him to listen a system outside of Tokyo. There are fotos of this system at this site: http://aca.gr/pop_goto_ale.htm It’s the five way reference system, with green drivers. I have pics of the bass horn behind, its straight 9m. I brought my own cds, and I had some with very deep bass. I was surprised, as the basshorn did not go very deep, and time delay was a problem, you actually hear that the soundsource is 9m behind you, and that is really bad. It can be imagined like you go to a deep well, and somebody is down there. When this person calls you from down there, you can notice that the source comes from far deep, at a view m of distance. The same happens with these long horns. So , definitely, not a good solution for good, deep bass. The rest of the system was fine. I don’t think that these exotic Japanese drivers are far better than more commercial drivers, like tad, altec, etc. Probably only the highest series of Goto, really crazy. I don’t believe that their exponential horns sound honky. Goto’s objective is to creat the most natural sound possible, and they where using a piano, playing it, and then comparing directly with their speakers. They know very well what they do, and I believe, there is no coloration at all. And, they do that for over 30years… These drivers are not expensive only in the states , but also in japan. Only a example. The 1260 ALE 100kg bass driver costs there 1.3 mio yen each, abought us $11.000,00 I think a subwoofer with good speakers, Iike a audire 1808 should really sound better. Actually, I want to buy these, if u know who has a pair for sale ?
Thanks interesting. When I was in Japan I did not visit them. Probably I did not wont to be disappointers. It was enough that I visited Sacuma and Micro, - a compile waste of time, so I did not want to have any other killed illusions.
 angeloitacare wrote:
I only believe a mid bass horn will be necessary, to have more body of the sound.
Yep. It's always the case….
 angeloitacare wrote:
I enjoyed a lot your comments abought magico minis, and his horns. Do u know the woofer of the mini ? It s a expolinear chassis (http://www.expolinear.de/ ) costs Euro$ 268,00 . His price tag is just ridiculous. The cost to built a speaker like this is not more than : scan speak tweeter us 600 a pair. The woofers also, 600 a pair, crossover and cabinet, may 1200 us, that’s total 2400 us. Why a speaker like this should be worth 22grant ?????? And in the interview Alon Wolf said, its Minis were cheap !!! A consumer that pays that is just stupid.
I do not think that they Expolinear but Zellaton-Gorlich, that are ~$550-$600 retasi and I amm sure a fraction of this price holesale. Also I do not think that they are expensive: do not forget the 60% of that price is the dealers mark up. The problem with them Magico Minis is not their price but their sound….
 angeloitacare wrote:
I did not involve me with high-end for quit a long time. But my dream now is to create a horn speaker Wich is a simbiosis of good looking, and good sounding, at a fair price. And that may I could produce and commercialize as well. A good alternative to Avantgardes, and Acapellas ( dinaudio drivers for 230 grant ? ) I believe your Macondo Horn must sound very well. But I would like to built something with commercially easy to get drivers, less esoteric.
Well, if you looks very carefully at the horns design and filter out the objectively wrong solutions then what will be left will not be too far from Macondo. Anyhow. I do not believe in commercial success of any properly done horn speaker. Avantgardes it was the best that the industry could come up with and market and it was still too far from where it should be.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2865
Reply to: 2861
Re: YL audio, ALE, GOTO, and Onken... good post.

Hi Romy

Bert took off already my post.... that 's not good for business....kkkkk....

Angelo

09-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2866
Reply to: 2865
They are easy and accessible ... still give to them and to yourself a chance.

I care less about Bret and his business, in fact I have no idea who is he. Since he use audio as business then what distinct him from any other audio whore. A purpose of any business is supply demands and capitalize on the frustrations, investing as little as possible, enough to fulfill the frustrations. Whoever Bret is his objective is not get better Sound but to conceptualize “something” and then sell people on his “concept”. It is a nature of any businesses operation and if that Bret had any other objectives then he would not convert audio on his business to begin with.  Any manufacture that do horn knows that drivers is the deadliest point of the horn operation. Bret is pitching BMS, because he can do it. They are easy and assessable. They are comfortable to embrace and base operation around them. How it relates to Sound? It has no relation to Sound at all? If your brat has no BMS, TOA, TAD and a few other DJ drivers then what would he do? Chaise the vantage JBL drivers? Come on, we all know the result…

However, I have to say that I do not particularly like what you do. It looks like you get the DB Design speaker and how you’re looking for a justification why they might or might not be good or bad. I think it is not productive for yourself, for your Bret and for your understanding of the subject. Get the speakers and do your best to get the best out of those DB Design. Then, only if you detect problems with sound you might build up your case against the DB Design approach. So far, until you worked with them and build up a list of what you do not like in the Sound that you get in your room I do not think that your views are mater. I do not think that it is necessary to listen the opinions of the Moron Bret, the Moron Romy the Cat or any other Moron. Do whatever benefits the interests of Sound and the interests of your understanding what would define better Sound.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-18-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2868
Reply to: 2866
Re: They are easy and accessible ... still give to them and to yourself a chance.

  Romy

  my post is there at Bd ' Forum.  I don't know what happened yesterday, as i didnt see it anymore.

Anyway, i think u can have a objective opinion abought the quality of a speaker  only  after hearing it.

Angelo

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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Swing hornspeaker of bd-design..  intern of the swing ...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  29946  12-10-2006
  »  New  The bogusness of the coaxial compression drivers?..  It’s not surprise that the BMS drivers sounded like mBS...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  47317  03-28-2007
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