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05-23-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,075
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 27091
Reply to: 27091
High End Munich 2023
It looks like Germans have a new audio show, I did not even know that they are still going on. That very first lady guy found was surprisingly pleasant, even though I did not finish to watch it. The guy let manufacturers talk and explain what they want to do.  Not that I comfortable with everything they say. The 46 layers of organic material in platter is certainly made my day, still I have no reasons to agree or disagree.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 106
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 27092
Reply to: 27091
Moc 2023
I've been there for the whole show, there are a lot of interesting news to share. ill keep you posted
05-24-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 27093
Reply to: 27092
The future is carbon
Funny video from Acoustical systems and Wilson Benesch Turntable systems, lots of marketing hype in their presentation and finally the sound is dead crap.Wilson Benesch Marketing hype: "the future is carbon" finally you hear Crap tone from plastic cone drivers .
Kharma new technology in omega drivers and their own class d amplification : crap sound
Cessaro designer after 10 years never undrestand what is meaning of good sound.
Million dollar systems all just increase price tags and no real improvement in this industry

Most audio corporations in audio industry are small with limited budget and real improvements need large scale teamwork + lots of money.

smart engineers from class A+ university does not go to work in small audio companies while they can earn so much money in big industry.


05-24-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,591
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 27094
Reply to: 27093
The Future's So Bright (I Gotta Wear Shades)!
Of course, bad sound might well be because of components that are inherently bad-sounding. And there might be any sort of reason or reasons for bad sound, and it might not be the fault of the component or the exhibitors in question, and it can be hard to figure it out at a show. Generally, the sound that matters at shows is good sound, or maybe "interesting" sound, because this speaks for itself. As we've said around here for many years, one basically has to be able to "listen past" the ridiculous "explanations" and justifications for audio "products", not to mention what's passed off as Music at shows. And all this is mostly because Business Has NOTHING To Do With Actual, Individual Audio!


Paul S
05-27-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 27095
Reply to: 27094
Macondo Loudspeaker in munich show
I have thought many times about trying to have an Audio System like Macondo Horn Loudspeaker System and if I could get good result then I will demo it in munich high end show.this is a big project for me because I am not expert and I have no DIY experience and my budget/time is limited. Iran economic condition is awful (money value dropped over 1400% between 2018 and 2023) and all thing is risky in this country but I really like to do this project.
In my opinion we can find good amplifier/pre/DAC/transport/cables in this high end industry but there is no good horn loudspeaker and also there is no good turntable and also there is no good high power AC Regenerator in this market. ESD horn was not good in munich 2023 and non of horn speakers were good, only WE was better in comparison. Cessaro was awful .
I think going for Macondo Horn Project will be a good decision .


05-27-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,591
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 27096
Reply to: 27095
Time vs. Money
Amir, I think there are still "acceptable" "commercial" components (including speakers) still "out there", depending on how they are used; it's just a matter of finding and getting ahold of them. In any case, building up an integrated, synergistic system can take a while, but building a project like Macondo might take a very long time. It's always time and money, just how much of each.


Good luck,  

Paul S
05-27-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 7
Post ID: 27097
Reply to: 27095
Probably not
Macondo is no magic bullet.  Sure, Macondo/DSET is put together in a way that it's components need for optimal operation, and when "used as directed" the performance is phenomonal, but it is still prone to room integration and poor setup so will likely not suit show conditions.

All playback systems are "ordinary" until enough effort has been made to integrate them properly to the room and listening conditions, even Macondo. High sensitivity systems with a high ratio of direct to reflected sound are especially sensitive to listening position so will never suit a room full of people who listen critically.  Macondo is a very personal playback, best listened in near-field in the 'sweet spot'...sort of like a pair of 2 tonne headphones.    
05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 8
Post ID: 27098
Reply to: 27096
Sure It is not easy
 Paul S wrote:
Amir, I think there are still "acceptable" "commercial" components (including speakers) still "out there", depending on how they are used; it's just a matter of finding and getting ahold of them. In any case, building up an integrated, synergistic system can take a while, but building a project like Macondo might take a very long time. It's always time and money, just how much of each.


Good luck,  

Paul S

Paul  I agree I can find some "acceptable" horn loudspeakers in this market , for example Living Voice Vox Olympian and also there are some Vintage horns but what make Macondo Special to me is it's design concept.Finally I know it is not easy and it needs lots of efforts.
05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 27099
Reply to: 27097
Properly Setup Acoustic System DPOLS
 anthony wrote:
Macondo is no magic bullet.  Sure, Macondo/DSET is put together in a way that it's components need for optimal operation, and when "used as directed" the performance is phenomonal, but it is still prone to room integration and poor setup so will likely not suit show conditions.

All playback systems are "ordinary" until enough effort has been made to integrate them properly to the room and listening conditions, even Macondo. High sensitivity systems with a high ratio of direct to reflected sound are especially sensitive to listening position so will never suit a room full of people who listen critically.  Macondo is a very personal playback, best listened in near-field in the 'sweet spot'...sort of like a pair of 2 tonne headphones.    

Anthony  I know the best audio system will sound poor and even awful if we not care about properly setup, right room, right speaker placement, good AC quality and ...
I am not expert and my experience is limited but What I think is Macondo could outperform other horn systems in right setup.
I also know the amplifier Speaker matching is the heart of any successful audio setup but I am not sure just only DSET is great match to Macondo.There are some amplification out there like Lamm ML3 and Kondo and I can try those amplifiers, if it was not great match I will go for DSET.I have a friend in Iran who make tube amplifier and can help me .
05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,075
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 27100
Reply to: 27097
That is much more to talk about it
 anthony wrote:
Macondo is no magic bullet.  Sure, Macondo/DSET is put together in a way that it's components need for optimal operation, and when "used as directed" the performance is phenomonal, but it is still prone to room integration and poor setup so will likely not suit show conditions.

Actually it is not exactly accurate. In the way my Macondo is a magic bullet. If you read carefully old article about Macondo axioms then you will see that one of the major underlying principle of Macondo topology is not to fight acoustic specificity of any given listening room but rather embrace and to operate within a given listening room idiosyncrasies. Mycondo, it is not what I designed but rather what I empirically ended up in the contact of the drivers is that I choose to use. I presume that in context of conceptual different acoustic of a listening room and in context of fundamentally different drivers that look of Macondo will be different.  Pay attention that Macondo does not populate anything about low frequency. Macondo is vertical pile of time align channels with imposement to use lower frequencies than upper base driver which do not conflict with the room.

 anthony wrote:
All playback systems are "ordinary" until enough effort has been made to integrate them properly to the room and listening conditions, even Macondo. High sensitivity systems with a high ratio of direct to reflected sound are especially sensitive to listening position so will never suit a room full of people who listen critically.  Macondo is a very personal playback, best listened in near-field in the 'sweet spot'...sort of like a pair of 2 tonne headphones.   
yes, it is correct but in my view it's need to be properly understood. Any acoustic system, regardless of topology is able to produce more accurate sound reproduction only it is religiously time aligned. There are many topologist which intentionally or not intentionally introduce minor or major time misalignment, something that I call timing randomization, and those systems tend not to have narrow listening spot. Some of them so much randomize time alignment is that you can literally listen across whole room. 

Now is the major kicker of this entire conversation. More time misalignment, means wider listening spot introduces more acoustic system own attitude. You might call it colorations, patterns, sustained harmonics or whatever you want but your system will not be able to adopt properly to the demands of recordiled material. However, and it is huge however. My personal quite extensive listening experience do not indicate that time misalign system more challenging for listener perception of musical content.  I completely understand that it is self contradictory 2 statements but only to a degree. Severe time alignment and severely narrow listening spot unconventionally produce better audio.  Time alignment with few fundamental mistakes produce horrible audio  and horrible music. A complete time randomization, if it is done properly not able to produce perfect audio but able to produce a listening environment extremely capable for introducing superbly high quality musical content. In fact, I would argue that in the top of implementations properly done randomization can overperform from point of view of musical content that properly time alliance system. Do not feel however that properly done time randomization is the only condition that is in play. It requires much much more. Also, do not expect me to itemize all requirements for successful time randomized system. It is not my area of expertise. I spent many years to study, observe the impact and to perfect playback in context of time alignment. I do not have enough experience to express anything sensible in context of time randomized systems. But I do testify that I hurt some ridiculously time misaligned playbacks that produced quite horrible out there but stunningly high level of musical context. Not to go very far, I have home old German radio from 1955 which produce audio far beyond any sensible criticism. However, I read composers and musicians intent with amazing level of resolution and precision from this radio, in my view even better than in listening spot of Macondo



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,591
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 11
Post ID: 27101
Reply to: 27100
Listening and Hearing

What s/he listens to, what s/he listens for, how s/he listens, and what s/he hears will be the main concerns of the advanced audio practitioner, and any “rules” come from and serve this approach. The big advantages and opportunities offered by a Macondo/DSET design come at the considerable cost of extreme complexity in terms of acquisition, set-up, and maintenance, and this especially in light of Romy’s very true and very important observations about his old console/table radio. With careful consideration and navigation one can seriously enjoy serious Music with a lot less grief. While some satisfaction may derive from thinking one has achieved some sort of audio summit, the cold facts are that it is not easy/comfortable to keep a complex system in optimal order to deliver its best, and in my experience big, complex systems that are “off” can be a form of torture, or maybe worse, an end in themselves. Intellectually, 3-way speakers with sub(s)  “should” “do it”, and there are SS amps out there that can be acceptable in specific situations, the same in this regard as a given tube amp. “Advantages” of SS (best case) are power and ease of use/repeatability. As for power conditioning, I guess everyone has this problem, more or less. My choice in my own case has been to “build around it”. Not sure what I would do if I could not do without it, but I suppose there is no sense building to a dead end.>>


Paul S

05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 12
Post ID: 27102
Reply to: 27099
Reaping rewards
 Amir wrote:


I am not expert and my experience is limited but What I think is Macondo could outperform other horn systems in right setup.



Soundwise, my Macondo is a very interesting thing although Romy's may well be somewhat different, I am unsure.  Mine sounds a lot like other good speakers/systems (of almost any topology) in that it makes the same big noises and presents the music in a not unfamiliar way.  I remember reading on this site a visitors disappointment with Romy's playback that "it sounds like a normal speaker", which in a lot of way it does, and it has to of course because if it sounded fundamentally different then there are a lot of things "wrong".  But that is on the macro scale of sound, the big things that "normal" people would hear.  What Macondo/DSET does so well are so many of the small things that really add up to a fundamentally different listening experience.  Yes, I just said it sounds fundamentally the same as some other high-end speakers and then in the next breath Macondo sounds fundamentally different to them too.  And without really explaining why...


 Amir wrote:

I also know the amplifier Speaker matching is the heart of any successful audio setup but I am not sure just only DSET is great match to Macondo.


In my opinion, the DSET topology is essential to getting the most out of Macondo.  A single SET amp no matter the breeding will be unable to do what DSET does for Macondo.  DSET concept is the best way I know of sidestepping most of the technical shortfalls of a SET amp and getting a true fullrange audio experience.  But it is not for the feint of heart as it takes a lot of effort to build and implement.
05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 13
Post ID: 27103
Reply to: 27100
How many wrongs make a right
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Actually it is not exactly accurate. In the way my Macondo is a magic bullet. If you read carefully old article about Macondo axioms then you will see that one of the major underlying principle of Macondo topology is not to fight acoustic specificity of any given listening room but rather embrace and to operate within a given listening room idiosyncrasies. Mycondo, it is not what I designed but rather what I empirically ended up in the contact of the drivers is that I choose to use. I presume that in context of conceptual different acoustic of a listening room and in context of fundamentally different drivers that look of Macondo will be different.  Pay attention that Macondo does not populate anything about low frequency. Macondo is vertical pile of time align channels with imposement to use lower frequencies than upper base driver which do not conflict with the room.



Yes, Macondo definitely interacts with the room a lot less than "normal" speakers but so do a lot of other narrow directivity horns.  Macondo has narrow directivity below the rooms transition into modal behaviour which may be a real point of difference to many...the Upperbass horn really matters!

There is a whole school of research driven modern loudspeaker design that looks to make the power response of the loudspeaker as even as possible on and off axis with the intent of having the reflections that make it to the listener as close a mimic in terms of frequency response of what left the loudspeaker as possible.  I can see tremendous benefit of this particularly in untreated or poorly treated rooms and compromised room setups.  Achieving these goals relies heavily on DSP and non physically time aligned drivers.   Macondo, of course, with its widely vertically separated channels and tractrix horns would have a rubbish off axis power response but its saving grace is that it does not put much energy into those other areas of the room, has no DSP involved, and is physicall time aligned.  A little bit of room treatment also goes a long way with Macondo.


05-28-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,075
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 27104
Reply to: 27103
Well...
Macondo, because it is prodigiously time aligned has very nerow and well defined listening sweet spot. The only same identical listening spot I heard only from one another loud speaker, it was Wilson Alexandria which was very accurately time aligned.  There is however next level up. If you manage to put Macondo onto DPoLS then narrow listening spot evaporates and you can listen even 5  ft away and you have absolutely identical balanced resolution and harmonic accuracy. It is very hard to explain and unless you experience  it anything else sound like a pervert needless entertainment entertainment. I had it I believe in 2001 or 2 for 3 on 4 days and then that time I had very wrong amplifiers very wrong preamp and it was not even a Macondo but rather modified Avangard. I never had Macondo in DPoLS and I can only imagine how beautiful it might be. If I ever catch this sentence again I absolutely promise that I will poor a half ton of industrial send cement at Macondo base to make sure it will never move again.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 615
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 15
Post ID: 27117
Reply to: 27093
Modern electrostats
 Amir wrote:
Funny video from Acoustical systems and Wilson Benesch Turntable systems, lots of marketing hype in their presentation and finally the sound is dead crap.Wilson Benesch Marketing hype: "the future is carbon" finally you hear Crap tone from plastic cone drivers .
Kharma new technology in omega drivers and their own class d amplification : crap sound
Cessaro designer after 10 years never undrestand what is meaning of good sound.
Million dollar systems all just increase price tags and no real improvement in this industry

Most audio corporations in audio industry are small with limited budget and real improvements need large scale teamwork + lots of money.

smart engineers from class A+ university does not go to work in small audio companies while they can earn so much money in big industry.



I haven't attended Munich this year but the most listenable speakers I've heard on the last show I've been to (Warsaw 2022) were modern hig- efficiency electrostats. Something interesting has been happening there.





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
06-17-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,591
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 16
Post ID: 27119
Reply to: 27117
Military Intelligence?
"High-efficiency electrostatic speakers"??? Is this not an oxymoron? My friend, Mark, who sometimes visits and posts in this form, has gigantic Sound Lab 'stats. He hates SS, and he uses VTL Wotan tube amps to drive them, 1.200W per channel, and it pretty much takes that sort of tube amp to do it. My Marantz SS amps drive them OK, but "efficient" is the last adjective I'd use for them. Also, of FR 'stats I've heard, those that can be driven with mid-power amps run out of steam pretty quick. Mark's will get quite loud, but back to 1,200 WPC...


Paul S
06-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 442
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 17
Post ID: 27120
Reply to: 27119
It is not so bad anymore
Martin Logan CLS are 85 dB efficient, so that is certainly more optimistic than ELS of old. New Quad 2912s are rated at 86 dB.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
06-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 18
Post ID: 27121
Reply to: 27117
Electrostats
 N-set wrote:
 Amir wrote:
Funny video from Acoustical systems and Wilson Benesch Turntable systems, lots of marketing hype in their presentation and finally the sound is dead crap.Wilson Benesch Marketing hype: "the future is carbon" finally you hear Crap tone from plastic cone drivers .
Kharma new technology in omega drivers and their own class d amplification : crap sound
Cessaro designer after 10 years never undrestand what is meaning of good sound.
Million dollar systems all just increase price tags and no real improvement in this industry

Most audio corporations in audio industry are small with limited budget and real improvements need large scale teamwork + lots of money.

smart engineers from class A+ university does not go to work in small audio companies while they can earn so much money in big industry.



I haven't attended Munich this year but the most listenable speakers I've heard on the last show I've been to (Warsaw 2022) were modern hig- efficiency electrostats. Something interesting has been happening there.




My friend did not report any positive feedback about electrostats in Munich High End Show 2023 and I ask him again about that. what my friend likes in horns is their dynamics.
which model did you listen?
06-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 19
Post ID: 27122
Reply to: 27119
Higher power
 Paul S wrote:
"High-efficiency electrostatic speakers"??? Is this not an oxymoron? My friend, Mark, who sometimes visits and posts in this form, has gigantic Sound Lab 'stats. He hates SS, and he uses VTL Wotan tube amps to drive them, 1.200W per channel, and it pretty much takes that sort of tube amp to do it. My Marantz SS amps drive them OK, but "efficient" is the last adjective I'd use for them. Also, of FR 'stats I've heard, those that can be driven with mid-power amps run out of steam pretty quick. Mark's will get quite loud, but back to 1,200 WPC...


Paul S


My problem with Electrostats is their limited dynamics, do you think more tube power (1200W) will increase the dynamics of Electrostats to an acceptable level?  actually I doubt it.

In my opinion some solutions in Audio are good for mid-level performance when the price matters but those are not perfect for ultimate performance.
for example Windows OS is very good for mid-level performance but only Linux platform lets you do big/complex work.
The Linux platform in high end audio is the 6way horn loudspeaker . you will have ultimate performance without degrading dynamics.if you check new products you will realize this industry does not care about dynamics, designers do their best for having more refine sound but they do not think about what happens to dynamics.
06-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,591
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 20
Post ID: 27123
Reply to: 27122
Sliding Scale Dynamics
It seems like many speakers that might be acceptabe at low to mid volume with simple music begin to compress and otherwise screw up when "pushed", either dynamically or with more complex music. Of course, plenty of people really have no use for speakers that can truly play loud, because of their listening preferences, or because of their living circumstances, and these folks have "other things to think about", in terms of efficiency and dynamics. It is much harder to find and implement acceptable amps and speakers that are truly powerfull. If people are listening in a small space, and/or they need to keep the volume down, they can take advantage of a much greater number of speaker/amp pairings. No sense worrying about a giant system if it won't get used to capacity.


Paul S
06-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 615
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 27124
Reply to: 27119
Sorry, ribbons
Alsyvox and Diptique Audio (not sure if those are ribbons)



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
06-19-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 22
Post ID: 27125
Reply to: 27124
Alsyvox was good
Jarek         
Alsyvox room was one of the good rooms in munch 2023 but finally ribbons or electrostats are not his favorites. as I said before he has living voice horn loudspeaker. in munich 2023 the Wadax introduced Wadax Reference Transport, Wadax is new to this market and it has Transport, music server and DAC, each of them is around $150k. I did not listen to Wadax products but it seems the best music servers in this market is new Wadax Music Server and the Taiko music server is in the next place. Alsyvox and Taiko were in munich if i am not mistaken. one of audiophiles who listened to Wadax reference Music Server believes high performance transports (Like CEC) are better than all music servers.




06-19-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 302
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 23
Post ID: 27126
Reply to: 27123
At every SPL
 Paul S wrote:
It seems like many speakers that might be acceptabe at low to mid volume with simple music begin to compress and otherwise screw up when "pushed", either dynamically or with more complex music. Of course, plenty of people really have no use for speakers that can truly play loud, because of their listening preferences, or because of their living circumstances, and these folks have "other things to think about", in terms of efficiency and dynamics. It is much harder to find and implement acceptable amps and speakers that are truly powerfull. If people are listening in a small space, and/or they need to keep the volume down, they can take advantage of a much greater number of speaker/amp pairings. No sense worrying about a giant system if it won't get used to capacity.


Paul S

Paul          
 I do not have enough experience to judge and maybe I am wrong but what I hear from Electrostats/manger/ribbons does not relate to sound level. yes they can not play loud but even at mid-level SPL the sound is not as dynamic as horns. I also feel their sound is not as natural as dynamic drivers.
I have listened to Manger, Quad 2905, Magneplanar MG3.6 and I did not listen to new ribbons like Alsyvox.
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