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07-16-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2661
Reply to: 2661
Magico Mini or Jonathan Valin maxi?

When I meet Jonathan Valin I  laugh. Jonathan is soft-spoken, kind-mannered person who does not have that revolting attitude of a typical audio reviewer. Most of audio reviewers that I met behaved like idiots, claiming:  “the entire world does not deserve to blow us”. Jonathan is different. He behaves like a kid who discovers “world” and who astonished that sun rises on East and that water when cold get converted in ice. Still there is very fine different between simplicity and foolishness that is hidden under umbrella simplicity. I do not know if Jonathan is fool but he (of someone behind him) does quote good job to cash on Valin’s simplicity/foolishness.

I dose not look as a big deal when Jonathan Valin took (actually he was given by distributor of that time) no name Belgium company that did their–class loudspeaker and convert if into a huge American hype. Sine then the distributor (another one) bought 5 BMWs and Kharma speakers sit in the rooms of each Moron who has his Audio IQ under 20. It would not be a big deal as any audio cetin deserves sound that represent it’s cretinism but there are two factors that are long term negative:

1) Despite Marketing success of Kharma they, any single model of them sound horrible. The progress in audio reviewing is not to sell more loudspeakers but build a composite awareness what it good and what it bad. Kharma’s way is not juts bad it is atrocious and Valin foolishly, or ignorantly or maliciously failed his duty.

2) By artificially worshiping the deprived and feeble Sound Jonathan Valin and Co inadvertently begin to subscribe to own believes to respect to this sound. As the result a notion of “Industry Typical Proposed Sound” enter the consumers minds. The “Industry Typical Proposed Sound” is an artificially created by audio propaganda notion that describes sound that is comfortable to sell. It has nothing to do with real sound and it is juts a surrogate of very poor audio reproduction. However, buttered by the Valin-like propaganda an average audio moron considers the “Industry Typical Proposed Sound” as a Mecca and goal of audio reproduction. oebbels who hides in audio under the mask of simplicity? I do not know. You decide….

What next for the Valinnians? The next was August issues of “The Absolute Sound” with Jonathan Valin going down on Alon Wolf’s Magico Mini monitors.  This “review” was so bogus, so fragrantly erroneous and so counterfeit in it’s finding that it overshadow what Jonathan did before. Does Jonathan feel that his readers built up immunity against his writing and not to “reach the public” he need to increase the dose of his “express Moronity”? I really do not know where to start to think… So, who is Jonathan Valin: fool of ignorant deaf or juts a cunning and wily Dr. Joseph Goebbels of Audio?

I did not read the Jonathan “review” to the end as it’s begging is the article made me to lose interest to the Jonathan’s further findings. I read juts a few fist few paragraphs and closed the TAS with disgust. Let see what I have managed to read.

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
…. that he heard the Magico Mini at SEC 2006 and they impressed him.  He also said that HP, RH, WG and everyone else who heard than in CES were impressed as well.

Great, I’m glad that each reviewing whore who heard than was impressed but could someone point a moment what a reviewer was not impressed? Also, I would not blab that Magico Mini were such a good at CES. They were from my perspective unspeakably horrible. I was in that room 3 times and two times I was not able go closer then to stray in corridor next to the room. Evan in the corridor next to the room I was attached by sever feeling that I am chewing a desert dast – so dry, bright aggressive they were. The speakers completely locking any implication of upper bass and lower midrange and I would roll off 3-4dB from tweeters to make me to enter that room. Later on I have a change to expensively audition Magico Mini in a wonderful conditions with very capable electronics and I found a LOT more wrong with them, including the reasons why they sound so “sharp”. Well, it was not “sharp” in fact but it was a perfect compliance with the “Industry Typical Proposed Sound”. No wonder that a barbaric Industry Reviewer hears that ribs-piercing sound and screams “Alleluia!!!”

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
… that the unique constriction of the Magico Mini enclosure…

Yes, it is true; the Magico Mini does have an “evolved” enclosure. It is fairly expansive but the only question that I would ask if it is effective. Sine the speakers have horrifying lower range that is it that something fundamentally wrong was done in Magico? Also, if you have no listening inelegance to detect in sound the enclosure sound then run the Magico and stick your ear to the Magico body. You will head so many very-very sharp, pinging resonances that you will look differently at Magico enclosure effectiveness. I know that in many instances manufactures write 80% of the reviews for the reviewers and juts let the reviews to sign the writing. However, if it was the carrying in the Jonathan Valin case then should Jonathan at least verify some facts?

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
…that  Magico Mini uses proprietary, unique, exclusive, vapor-deposited titanium woofer  …

Well, Robert Harley a few issues ago said that c woofers was not proprietary or exclusive but source from “the only one lab in the world” (or something like this). At least Jonathan Valin and Robert Harley should synchronies the foolishness that they express in the SAME magazine! In reality the Magico Mini’s woofers have nothing to do with uniqueness and in fact if you look ay the family of those drivers then Magico Mini uses the worst driver, which is partially responsible for Magico horrible sound.  The driver idea of making uni-cone and impregnate paper (later plastic) with few lays of metal foil was developed by Dr. Podzsus in 1934 who used his “Sandwiches” of 4 layers of cellulose coved from outsize with thin aluminums layers. Later on a few companies make the very same drivers usually up to 19 ultra thin layers of paper or plastic (usually polystyrene and polesterol) imbedding between the 2-4 later of very thin aluminum layers (usually foils of vapor). In 60s-70s Klein & Hummel use it in their monitors and no one scramed about the uniqueness as those driver has own issuers that should be taken care. Also Pawel Acoustics and German Symphonic Line used Görlichs.... The West German company Görlich over many years produced Görlich drivers that were wonderful MF drivers (if they properly used). Zellaton did the very same drivers.  Later on ATD trying to do the same driver using the new magnets ands titanium coating instead of aluminum coating. They sound way more inferior and have even more “issues” than the original Görlich drivers. I might go into death why the Magico case the ATD driver sound so bad but context of the Jonathan Valin is not at the level when any serious discussion might take place. Any conversation should start after people do not lie and do not treat their readers as they area bunch of the idiots who would “swallow” any crap. Jonathan Valin would not wrote it in Europe where Görlich drivers are well know and used for decades in many loudspeakers. Also, during the  CES-2002 Italian company by Mauri Mauro "Omicron" brought a wonderful Coherence hybrid of well performing Zellaton/Görlich and Hail tweeter (you had to hear it on the 21 amp that they had but did not demonstrate publicly – it was the absolutely best sound in Vegas that year!!!), but Omicron falks did not speak English and Jonathan Valin did not how know how to say “I’m highly bribable” in Italian… 

  Jonathan Valin then said …. wrote:
… high price, high expense, high demands, high qulety parts…. and blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah …

He pretty much passed the point here where I lost interest to read further. Looking that cover of the TAS suggested that Magico Mini were “a Gaint Killer” I conclude that Jonathan Valin love them a lot. What else should I expect of Alon Wolf knows only and shoot only to hit the “Industry Typical Proposed Sound”. I my book the experience with Magico Mini was the most unpleasant loudspeaker I heard so far in 2006. Ironically they are very similar to what Khama dose but in much more extreme, detestable and obnoxious way.

Anyhow, Jonathan Valin should be congratulated as he dipped in the industry’s Vaseline one more manufacture. Good job, Jonathan. After all are you a fool or a marketing scumbag who hides under the mask of a fool? I am sure the Israelian Alon Wolf believes that you are Mousses who via his monitors leads people from hi-fi slavery to high-end freedom…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AllHammer
Posts 2
Joined on 08-04-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2722
Reply to: 2661
Re: Magico Mini or Jonathan Valin maxi?
This post has basically wiped out the entire reputation you have tried to build up in the past. Rebutting a review does not make yours right, and from my personal experiences, you are indeed far from right. I can see why some people will not agree with the price the MM is asking for, but to call them unspeakably horrible is like  flushing your credentials down the toilet. I urge anyone who is interested to go listen to  the Magico Mini for themselves, and come to their own conclusion. No review is necessary, positive or negative ones.

Yes, I just ordered a pair.

08-03-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2723
Reply to: 2722
YOU just ordered a pair.

 AllHammer wrote:
This post has basically wiped out the entire reputation you have tried to build up in the past. Rebutting a review does not make yours right, and from my personal experiences, you are indeed far from right. I can see why some people will not agree with the price the MM is asking for, but to call them unspeakably horrible is like  flushing your credentials down the toilet. I urge anyone who is interested to go listen to  the Magico Mini for themselves, and come to their own conclusion. No review is necessary, positive or negative ones.

Yes, I just ordered a pair.
I do not think that am trying to “build up reputation”, particularly the reputation of one who express an opinion with intention make people buy or do not buy the things. It is really irrelevant to me if you like, love, ordered or have already sold your pair – the entire stature or ownership is completely out of my attention. In my post above I addressed the misinformation that the reviewer presented and passed my very limited observations regarding the very low performing product that is being spun by audio propaganda as some kind audio revelation. I intentionally did not go into negative details of the Magico’s performance, primary because I did not see any “interest” in those speakers and I consider them as a next hi-fi buildup made by/for uninformed people who do not know anything more in Sound then the teeth drilling, dead, hipper-resolution…

Anyhow, I do not think that you might listen now as you apparently were impressed with the Magico’s demonstration. It is fine. I do not know who you are and I do not know what you where looking in Sound. I would not ruin your celebration of getting new monitors and I wish you to enjoy them. However, I would like to insist and to confirm that I personally consider Magico Mini not juts poor loudspeakers but “ironically-horrible” loudspeakers. I use the term ironically-horrible because there are some aspects of Magico performance that make then intentionally gratifying (similar to few other products) and particularly in the case of the people who have limited listening experience and restricted audio objectives.

Please, do not consider that I am trying to degrade you because you disagree with my assessment of Magico. Quite opposite: when and if you in future feel interest or motivations to collaborate within this site regarding the intrinsic sonic problems of Magico or how to minimize many negative moments of Magico’s performance than I would be glad to cooperate with you. Also, if you in future, come across the observation that Magico do well then please post your observations WHY you feel I was wrong. So far I would keep my rights to stay behind to what I have already said.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AllHammer
Posts 2
Joined on 08-04-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2725
Reply to: 2723
Happy Listening
If I am not mistaken, this is your website, filled with pages after pages of pure verbal diarrhea. I have no plan to interfere with you building your own audio religion. You can fill your website up with any opinion you want, regardless of the level of insights you have to offer.

You are in no way degrading me. Like I said, anyone who have really listened to the Magico Mini would know the truth, and would feel awfully embarassed for you, on your behalf, for even writing such a post.

Happy Listening

PS: there is no way to delete my membership on your website. Please kindly delete my login. Thank you.
08-04-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2726
Reply to: 2725
Re: Happy Listening, thank you.

 AllHammer wrote:
This is your website, if I am not mistaken. I shall respect your will to express, no matter the whatever the level of insights you have to offer. You are in no way degrading me. Like I said, anyone who have really listened to the Magico Mini would know the truth, and would feel awfully embarassed for you for even writing such a post
AllHammer,

I think you are very mistaken in your views. It is completely irrelevant whos site it is. We should not demonstrate any courtesy, foolish loyalty or respect to people but only to the subjects. It is funny that you make your comment calling people to “really listened to the Magico Mini”. Perhaps you
Under presumption that I made my comments juts looking at the pictures of those monitors. I understand what you do. You are trying to build up“solidarity” of opinions around your recent buy and I am fine with it, regardless that I have no idea why you guys need it. Anyhow, I am perfectly equipped to talk about those speakers and if in future you would like to do it then feel free to continue this thread. For now, you are not driven by a desire to deal with the facts/sound or a desire to learn why we have such as polarized differences of ours vews about the Magico Mini. Get your speakers. Leave with them, come down and then, if you have interest in realty of sound reproduction instead of superficial consumer report about sound reproduction, then let talk again WHY and HOW the Magico Mini is way off...

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

PS: Oops, it looks like you edited your reply as I got a different text in my email notification.

Do not worry; you do not interfere with anything. You are actually is a part of everything as my “verbal diarrhea” is possible only in context of the very peculiar people, the peculiar objectives, and the very peculiarly performing audio products. I do not feel my site filled with “opinions” but with views and those views required an evolved audio awareness in order to be able to get insights or benefits from my views' reasoning. I do not feel that “anyone who have really listened to the Magico Mini would know the truth, and would feel awfully embarassed for you”. So far the only embarrassed party is you as you are pissed that I did not endorse your recent buy. Well, big deal! Since you are not looking for Sound but for the endorsement then Jonathan Valin did "endorsed" your buy. I am sure you will find a lot of other people who would jump with you and Jonathan in the wagon and make you to feel better about yourself. I wonder what that relation that all has to do with the actual Sound….

Well, as I understand my initial post made at some kind of AV forums when a bunch of the audiophiles load their listening rooms with “high resolution”, industry sponsored, “demonstrate able for Mopons” ™ sonic notion and then bark to each other who purchase was more reasonable investment. Sorry, my new friend. My audio view and my reference points are quite far from the idiocy that you and your friends consider Audio isI have no motivations explaining to you anything further.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2729
Reply to: 2661
Re: Jonathan Valin's strip show?

Well, after all I was pointed out to the place where the annoyed wonna-be-Magico-owners came from:

http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=349&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Nothing new, I well accustomed to the satiations when proud SACD listeners, among the forest of their Revels, Wadias, Kaharmas and  heavy-duty tweaked cable-elevators, exposed to me and they developed a sense of disbelieve that some one might discharge their entire 30-years of listening experience. Ironically it is very much not about equipment but about people. Yes people, as I have very low tolerance when generally all around “survivable” people turned themselves into the freaking zombies as soon then touch audio subjects. One of those freaks proposed: “It does not get any better than TAS, except for the next issue of TAS.” I wonder what this person would do in audio if TAS would not exist, invent for himself another TAS?

That crowd is not really my cap of tea and the quality of the topics observation is not what I would feel interesting to present my point but there was in there something that I feel need to address. Jonathan Valin, the author of the review that encouraged me to write the initial post, comes with his post trying to mis-present the facts and suggesting that am an ignorant brat who have no familiarity to the subject.

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
Thank you, Sacduser and WSlam (and Wayne)—again.

As for Romy's “literary” style. I think he's a little closer to Lucia Joyce than to James. Either that or he learned English by listening to Yoda in Star Wars. Imagine going from Goebbels to Mousses [sic] in a few psychotic paragraphs. (You're giving him far too much credit, BTW, by assuming his misspellings and solecisms are intentional. Heck, he's a software designer—or claims to be—so ipso facto he can't write or speak English. Did you ever read a manual written by a software engineer?)

I've found out through others that this guy has launched ad hom attacks on virtually every audio critic going, and there doesn't seem to be any point in legitimizing this lunacy by responding to him point by vicious, lying, slanderous point. So I won't, though I have to admit that his likening of me to Dr. Josef Goebbels was especially ugly, considering that my great-grandfather and great-uncle died in a Nazi concentration camp.

BTW, Alon Wolf, who has also been a persistent victim of Romy's rampages since Robert wrote his review of the Ultimates, assured me by e-mail that "Romy has never even heard the MINIs. I know who he is and he was never in my room at the last CES. NEVER!!" How that's for gall on our boy's part?

I understand that he would lie to discredit my view. Ironically he did not address the specific facts in my post as faulty but he trying to hit my personally, talking about the ad hoinum… thanks God that he did not saddest to his audiences that they should disregard me because I sponsor with my money the Osama Bin Lanen, as some of his dirties colleges did in past. Anyhow, here are my comments to close up this Jonathan’s ship saga.

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
As for Romy's “literary” style. I think he's a little closer to Lucia Joyce than to James. Either that or he learned English by listening to Yoda in Star Wars. Imagine going from Goebbels to Mousses [sic] in a few psychotic paragraphs. (You're giving him far too much credit, BTW, by assuming his misspellings and solecisms are intentional. Heck, he's a software designer—or claims to be—so ipso facto he can't write or speak English. Did you ever read a manual written by a software engineer?)

I find it is very-very laughable. Each single time, across an entire internet, when a Moron comes across the point that he has nothing to say on the actual subject they begin to attack my epistolary techniques. “What the hell this freak can know bout Sound if he can not spell well!” It is practically fanny to hear it from the read-necks who have broken English as the only language they can manage! It is partially fanny to hear form the nation who selected the retarget psycho as their president. Anyhow, if you Mr. America Reviewer willing to demonstrate snobbism about English language or about literacy then do not be annoyed by me but take care about your kids. I taught then 8 semesters in your college and I can testify that their generation are linguistic idiots. I wonder if they learned form their parents…. 

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
I've found out through others that this guy has launched ad hom attacks on virtually every audio critic going, and there doesn't seem to be any point in legitimizing this lunacy by responding to him point by vicious, lying, slanderous point.

Was it my buddy Miky the Framer:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=1957

He, I remember also was running like wonder in the ass antelope, screaming that I heaver heard or familiar with the Continuum turntable…


  Jonathan Valin wrote:
So I won't, though I have to admit that his likening of me to Dr. Josef Goebbels was especially ugly, considering that my great-grandfather and great-uncle died in a Nazi concentration camp.

Well, if you are insulted with somebody correlate your method with Goebbels then do not use them. In fact in Nazi propaganda manuals there was a number of the very specific interactions how to deploy and to spared disinformation and in your article (at least the part that I managed to red) you literally followed them. If you feel that your memory of your great-grandfather and great-uncle  unsalted by somebody see in your marketing efforts the  Goebbels schooling then do not behave like one.

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
BTW, Alon Wolf, who has also been a persistent victim of Romy's rampages since Robert wrote his review of the Ultimates,

Hm, I do not feel that Alon Wolf is a victim of my rampages but I feel that audio public is victim of your glorification of the Alon Wolf efforts; it was the same with Kharma and with few other things. Alon Wolf has nothing to do with it: he cleverly recognized the desire of sonic primitivism and simplicity that you and your colleges injected into public awareness and pluged this gap with a product that addresses those demands. I sincerely wish him to make a lot of money on what he does but his marketing success has nothing to do with real quality of sound. In fact I have my reasons to believe that he sincerely does the best that he understand but the question how much he understand? He is in a way also a product of your “simplicity exaltation”. Yes, sometimes stadiums runners are so far behind that they feel that they are leading…

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
  assured me by e-mail that "Romy has never even heard the MINIs. I know who he is and he was never in my room at the last CES. NEVER!!"

Hm, another “never heard” comment. I did mention my both visit to Alon Wolf room six month ago in:

CES 2005 and CES 2006

The last show I did not even make any attempts to listen Alon’s monitor because it was imposable to approach the Alon room when the system was playing: it was literally painful. The Magico Mini monists have very little handling power and their bass drivers into very severe distortions (like the Kharma’s) when listing lever is louder then rabbit whispering. Alon drove their monitors at CES at outrages volume level and I was literally running ways as my hearing is very sensitive to BAD sound. In addition the Magico are very sharp musically with no lower midrange support for this hyper-resolution pitching HF. This all created a situation like a very young and badly trained mezzo-soprano who sung only in cheap operettas is trying to sing a complex dramatic opera…. good lick with this! I can give you a perfect association how the Magico Mini sounds. In the movie “The War of the Wards” there is moment when Tom Cruse running in his car with his chandler form the tripods and the little girls is screaming on the back sit. That scream is the exact replica of the Magico Mini sound.

Also, when the Alon get his memory back about the last CES then he might recall whom he invited to listen his 5 channels horn installation. BYW, Alon behaved very hospitable this year and I did mention in my post about CES 2006 that I appreciated hi attitude this year. Now, who lies that he “assured you by e-mail”? Was it Alon or the Josef Goebbels’ techniques do not let to shut a fuck up?

Well, surely I would not say anything about the speakers if the only sound I heard was the shows. A few months ago, I was wondering how much the new Görlich production with titanium foil sound different compare to the original Görlich with aluminum foil. I spent a substantial amount of time with Magico in a very well controlled environment with serious-enough electronics. The result was very self-evident in order do not have any ambiguity. I very well understand what you like about those monitors and what Alon was trying to accomplish. However, I’m very CONSCIOUSLY AGAINST of this Sound and AGAINST THOSE OBJECTIVES and reference points that made Alon to make this sound, you to worshipping this sound and the listeners to buy into this sound.

  Jonathan Valin wrote:
  How that's for gall on our boy's part?

Yes, what you have written is just the sad doodles for the galls and boys.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Telus
Posts 10
Joined on 08-05-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2743
Reply to: 2729
Is this correct link?
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Well, after all I was pointed out to the place where the annoyed wonna-be-Magico-owners came from:

http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=349&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50


I followed this link since I wanted to learn more about the different viewpoints and counterpoints but I couldn't find any of the posts to which you refer.  Is this the correct link?
08-10-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 2744
Reply to: 2743
Re: It WAS the correct link.

 Telus wrote:
I followed this link since I wanted to learn more about the different viewpoints and counterpoints but I couldn't find any of the posts to which you refer.  Is this the correct link?

It was a correct link but the collection of the posts regarding of the subject was deleted. Ironically it was nothing dangers in there, quite opposite it was educational and exposed the ways in which the simpleton Jonathan Valin is thinking. The half of the Jonathan post was his disbelief that I ever heard magico and another part was his doubts about my metal competence. It was kind of predictable: boring BS with no substance. Particularly it was predicable the fact that Jonathan was not able to address/confirm a single deception he expressed in the beginning of his review: these wring fools copy the text from the manufacturers marketing booklets into this articles with even having brain to comprehend what they copy.   I said the “beginning of his review “ as I did not read to the end and have no idea what he said it there  later on or even do not know if he likes the speaker. I do not think that the review ever would be published if he did not.

BTW, Amphissa, point out to the wonderful article the might be fin to read in the context of the subject:

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/entertainment/columns/article_1234143.php

Still, the article more portrays the industry but not necessary the Valin. I do not feel that Jonathan is corrupted in a way or internally fraudulent but his is just too simplistic, naïve and easy to please and not demanding. BTW, it is well know in industry and many people take advantage of it.

Anyhow, I have the very last post that I’ve posted into the thread that I’m copping in here:

I kind of thought to reply but it looks like there is no subject anymore in this thread and there is no valuable thoughts expected in here, the thoughts that worth any attention.  There are many reasons why I frequently do not read the reviews to the end – because in 90% of the cases those “writers” contradict (without even knowing it) in their later paragraphs the BS that they have expressed in their first paragraphs. The same is here. A few post ago the big time reviewers was ridiculing and mocking how horrible horns sound and hot weak SETs are and then he admit the he is never familiar horns and that he surprise, surprise did came across a SET that did well for whatever reasons. However, Jonathan ridiculed me and used my, based upon Horns and SETs familiarity with reproduced sound, as my ignorant labiality.  So, what was Jonathan’s  ridicule is beside his self-ridicule? But how different would it be from the rest that Jonathan have expressed in this thread?

In the end the subject is be left opened and not even discussed, as Jonathan is unable to address the subject. I can see that he’s wiling to discredit an opponent in case the opponent degrees with him, or he suggest a need to see a doctor… But all this affords to support his status quo do not adreess anything about the actual results that Magico delivers,  say nothing about the specific deceptions that Jonathan has expressed in his articles, at least it it’s beginning as I did not read it to the end.

I agree with Jonathan that is this thread I very much expressed my very legitimate “Romy the Catness”. I never seen myself hiding and I never seen myself blemishing. It is what it is and I would be glad of some of people who do follow this thirsted would get a message from me. The message is that the recent hype of admiration of the Magico Mini is actual not a view but a diagnoses – or the sign the sign of the very severe sick peruse into a domain of the very “different” sound reproduction objectives.

As I said above I have nothing against Valin, he is a lightweight audio-Vini-Pu who like we all entertain himself with audio subjects. I do not feel any seriousness, involvedness or rational in his views but why should I? Perhaps my practice do not to kiss in assed any budged cretin sound atypical at this TAS forum but the point is not about me, or not even about Mr. Valin. The point is that the very few of you “might” on the site, somewhere in peripheral of your metal vision, might  care an impression and message that the Magico Mini, along with many other recent audio products, presents a unique sonic vision that is IDENTIFIABLE. If you do not get it now, then you do not get it but it you do reach sometime a point in your audio development when you suddenly begin to “get it” then you will understand why I wasted my time posting at TAS forum.

In the end, I would like to express appreciation to the folks who run the forum. It is a common practice within the industry sponsored public forums that any controversial content get vandalized. In this case the guys who run the site did demonstrated integrity and tolerance. This is great and as the resule the readers got more diversified views on the subject of the Magico monitors.”

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

PS: How little I knew expending my credits to the people who ran that site….




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 3524
Reply to: 2726
i heard the magico ultimos. impressions
I had the opportunity to hear the magico ultimo, in san Francisco. After i heard it, i read the article in absolute sound, and i must say that the article  describes accurately the sound of this system. The room is relatively small for that big speakers, and heavily damped. The sound was crystal clear,  very natural , and excellent image.
the beryllium diaphramas are certainly a main reason for that.  
 the bass , and mid bass, I did not like it so much. Actually, I had the impression , the big mid-bass horn did not play at all. Only the other drivers. The bass was  changed, with a jmlab woofer . there was very high humm from the amplifiers .

its interesting that one of the two owners, that have this speaker now, had avantgarde trios before, and changed to this speaker. I am shure the avantgardes are not so accurate, not so crystal clear, not with such 3d imaging, but, the live likeness is wonderful. its still the speaker, wich I most like of all I heard until now.
11-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 5909
Reply to: 2661
ATD vs. Görlich
http://shackman-electrostatic-loudspeakers.reromanus.net/rae%20handbuch%20v3%20korr2%20free.pdf
(see FR graph at page 43)
12-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 6014
Reply to: 5909
The Magico “Strategic Sound” and new drivers.

Thanks for the link, el`Ol. The original Görlichs, when they still use aluminum layers were very interesting, thought they were soft suspended drivers that is not my cap of tea.  BTW, for whatever it worth the Magico new version does not use ADT drivers anymopre and they come up with own (or took from somewhere else) carbon micro-tubes made cones. If fact they never acknowledge the  ADT- Görlichs and claimed that the drivers they use were found in limited numbers in Tutankhamun tomb – the morons loved it!

Anyhow I never heard the new drivers, and I do not know if the new Magico drivers have has any sonic sense. Since it is still soft-rubber suspended MF drivers I might suspect that it should have little interests. The key is in a “special way” of wave propagation from inner to outer suspension across the cone. I do not see how it is possible with a rubber, using  Low Fs, 2-ways driver.

I also generally have attitude against Magico and I hate their “strategic sound”, so I suspect that whatever they do they shot to wrong target. I Magoco’s strategic sound is the media advertised and sponsored hyper resolution Boom -Tza-Tza noise and it is how they sell their loudspeaker – searching for the idiots who are presold for that Boom-Tza-Tza misery and providing them with glossy Boom -Tza-Tza solution. Why do you think that any Moron out there with Ed Meitner Possessor and Kharma loudspeaker was a very valuable candidate for Magico appearance? In a past I was paying attention to what Magico was trying to do but then I amazed that the company is not interesting. The Israeli guy (it think it was Alon the Wolf) who runs the company is a deceitful and sleazy bitch with extremely limited knowledge in audio and understanding of sound. He juts a marketing façade; he has an internal designer working for him. People who know what it doing on inside of Magico told me that this internal guy is a very interesting person and a quite potent designer. Unfortunately he is not public. I presume that what Magico as a company does is what that marketing freak “de Wolf” is capable to understand and to sell and therefore I hardly anticipate any interesting sound or interesting solution form Magico. Who knows, perhaps in future that “internal secret designer” would break away from the Wolf and it might lead to something more stimulating…

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 6115
Reply to: 5909
Podzsus – Görlich: Lost in translation

I asked last week a German guy to translate to me the article and I was kind if surprised what he translated to me. The article said the originals Görlich driver used aluminum layers with vacuum structure between them. It is NOT what I know about the Görlich. My knowledge was that Görlich was layered aluminum with polypropylene between the layers.  Could someone to clear it up?

If Görlich use two layers of aluminum with vacuum between them then how then keep the layers from collapsing? If then use honeycomb configuration (like aircrafts)  and then suck air out then considering the microscopic dimensions and mass of the cones it should be a hell to manufacture them…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 13
Post ID: 6117
Reply to: 6115
Foam materials
The Podzus-Görlich drivers use a special hard foam that was invented by Podzus in the 1930ies (Who would think about loudspeakers in first place after inventing a new material today?). I tried to find out more about it, but I failed. The problem is that all the good foams can only be produced as sandwiches. And since thin foils can only produced flat, the Podzus Görlich drivers are full cones that have to be manufactured by hand and look like garbage. Focal solved the problem by using glass fiber mash for their Rohacell cones. As the ATDs are Kevlar-reinforced, I believe they use epoxy foam. I´m sure they could have done better. Hartley achieve good results with solid epoxy plus titanium dioxide. Kea Audio claim to have good results with metal powder (don´t know what foam they use).
07-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KeaAudio
NZ
Posts 6
Joined on 07-05-2010

Post #: 14
Post ID: 13917
Reply to: 6117
Re: hardfoam cones
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi there el Ol

you are on the right track. (I know your post is quite old now, but I just found it today when I googled my own site).
I am the one who invented the Polyepicell cones of Kea Audio.
I bought the patent papers that Mr Podzus made over 60 years ago from the patent office in Munich and studied it (yes it is in German, I am afraid).
In the patent Mr Podzus explains the principles behind his invention to start with. This is: a very light foam structure that has open cells and is very hard at the same time. In his days plastics were limited so he used urea resin (contains formaldehyde). The main idea is that the cells in the foam are rather small and are not completely sealed, therefore the soundwaves can travel inside the material and get dampened on the way to the rim. The amount of connection between the wholes determines the dampening factor, which should be rather high. In order to achieve the stiffness and hardness (high shore hardness, or low young's modulus) he used aluminium (or other metal) powder. The problem with manufacturing was the getting those cells/holes right. He found a way to produce it which is rather tedious at best: first he produced very small wax spheres which were mixed into the resin. Then the whole thing was spread on a sheet of special paper, then formed to a cone and then baked in a vacuum oven, which extracts the wax at high temperatures and leaves holes behind. The surface is rather rough due to the semi open cells so he glued some aluminium foil on top of it. This again is rather difficult and that is why it looks so crappy. (I still have some of those drivers at home, which I measured thoroughly).
Nowadays this can be manufactured much simpler (but it is still not simple actually) with a 2 component hard foam, which is baked as well but not in a vacuum. The formulation of the components allows the material to foam up when mixed and hardens in the baking form. It is essential hereby to have the exactly correct mixture and the correct amount of metal powder added. It took me many years to get to a stage where these cones perform as intended.

But after many trials and errors and long laboring and measuring I achieved an outstanding cone, that is very light and at the same time very stiff, with a well defined dampening factor (very important to avoid ringing). The dampening factor determines the upper cutoff frequency by the way, which I usually set to about 3-4kHz, with a 18dB decay. This makes a crossover circuit for the midrange unnecessary.
If you have the chance to be either in NZ or Germany, you could arrange an appointment to listen. Every customer sofar has been completely overwhelmed by the clarity of the treble, the crispness and punchiness of the bass (which goes very very low by the way!)

Let me know if you have any further questions.

kind regards
Kea Audio
J.Lang
07-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 13919
Reply to: 13917
Custom cones options?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mr. Lang,
 
very interesting what you are talking about cones. Does your company or you personally have a capacity to do custom aluminium Görlich–like cones by customer specification? I ask because I have some interest in the subject. I was approached be people who were trying to ignite my interests in custom-made midbass compression driver. We, the horn peoples, for our midbass hors use 12-15” code drivers. We use them as they are compression driver, with back chambers, driving the Fs up. they do very well but it would make much more sense to use less compression and to have a custom dedicated midbass compression driver with own resonance around 40-50Hz.  There are no such drivers are made and people were trying to encourage me to work on the problems. My answer was: where will you get cones? It is very difficult to get custom cones in small quantities. Can you supply them? It need to be 6-7” Görlich-like sandwich with hard Mylar suspension and variable Görlich’s thickness. I am not a technologist but I have very clear idea what kind cone I would like experiment with… By advised that I will not pay a lot and it will be more a labor of love, at least for me. 

The Cat 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 16
Post ID: 13922
Reply to: 13919
Accuton
fiogf49gjkf0d
A different option for an experiment with something stiffer than paper could be this:
http://www.accuton.de/drivers/detail.php?driver=11&matID=4&appID=2
I wonder why Accuton have switched to such monstrous motors.
07-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KeaAudio
NZ
Posts 6
Joined on 07-05-2010

Post #: 17
Post ID: 13926
Reply to: 13919
Cones
fiogf49gjkf0d
HI Cat,

I would be able to send you a couple of cones to try. I understand that you can't pay much, but I am not giving them away either. So we can talk about cost via email. I am not sure what you mean by sandwich cone. The Goerlich speakers are not really sandwich. They just have a thin covering on the top. I would not consider that sandwich, but maybe that is what you meant.
We do  not produce any sandwich because it is not needed (it actually only produces problems). Our material forms an airtight surface naturally when manufacturing. Also I am not sure what you mean by suspension. The suspension is usually the spider (fabric). But maybe you mean the surround. We do not have or produce Mylar surrounds, only rubber, for a good reason! I cannot see a point of Mylar anyhow. But maybe I misunderstood. A driver resonance frequency of 50Hz is only achievable with a very soft suspension (including soft surround) (I assume that is what you mean by cone resonance, the cone resonance is actually at 3500Hz and is dampened.
The 6-7" you are talking about, is that cone radius or frame radius? (our largest frame radius is 6.5")
looking forward to hear from you.
kind regards
J.Lang

07-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KeaAudio
NZ
Posts 6
Joined on 07-05-2010

Post #: 18
Post ID: 13927
Reply to: 13922
Accuton
fiogf49gjkf0d
They use a big magnet to get a big magnetic field which in turn produces a lot of driving force. This brings the efficiency up.
The drivers look very interesting. Unfortunately I have never heard them. The whole theory sounds similar to what we are doing. What I don't understand is why this material has a good dampening factor. Would be interesting to measure... and hear...
07-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KeaAudio
NZ
Posts 6
Joined on 07-05-2010

Post #: 19
Post ID: 13928
Reply to: 13919
Rubber surround
fiogf49gjkf0d
by the way, what is wrong with rubber surround? You don't seem to like them...
07-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 13931
Reply to: 13926
We are taking about a driver for horn, are we?
fiogf49gjkf0d
KeaAudio.

I think we are taking about different things. I was under impression that Goerlich speakers are really sandwiches – layers of aluminum foil inner-layered with plastic.  Yes, I am not a big fan, in fact an opponent, of rubber shrouding for hard cone drivers and it obviously will not work in horns. Also, yes, I do understand when you say that “a driver resonance frequency of 50Hz is only achievable with a very soft suspension “.  I do not know, it needs to be deal with somehow. I guess a soft suspension need to be in direct radiators as the proverbial air displacement is low. In horn we have horn EQ helps a lot, so I presume the excursion of the diver would be much lower thus; the suspension might be much stiffer.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KeaAudio
NZ
Posts 6
Joined on 07-05-2010

Post #: 21
Post ID: 13934
Reply to: 13931
Horn woofer
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have never heard of any woofer that manages 50Hz lower cut off frequency in a horn arrangement. The simple fact is that a woofer does not emit sound under the resonance frequency (that is without artificially changing that, ie active). The resonance frequency can be calculated simply with the mass of the cone assembly and the suspension (that is spider including surround and air load). So if you make the suspension rather stiff (that also happens if the surround is very stiff) then the resonance frequency goes up. In order to compensate for that you would have to make the cone heavier (that is why the big woofers have a  harder suspension, because they are so heavy). The disadvantage of making the cone heavier is that the efficiency goes way down. This is partially compensated by the larger effective cone area of large speakers, but again there is a limit to everything. Putting a compression chamber behind the woofer certainly makes the suspension extremely stiff and you would have to use very very heavy cones to achieve 50Hz. So what is the idea????
You did not say what the problem with soft surrounds is? I cannot see any problems with that, not even in horns.

The Goerlich cones are very light and as I said, have an aluminium foil glued on top of the cone, basically to make it airtight. Kea Audio cones do not need that because the material forms a thin layer on the outside which makes it airtight. Inside, as mentioned it is foam, exactly as the Goerlich/Podzsus drivers.
As I said, there is no advantage of sandwich, it is only used to produce a hollow inside, which in our case is achieve with a foam. YOu can call this sandwich, but because the outer layers have no supporting function and are very thin anyway I would not consider that sandwich (it is a matter of opinion however).
Hope that clarifies it.

regards
J.Lang
Kea Audio
07-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 13935
Reply to: 13934
Leather-like materials or plastics surrounds?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Kea Audio,

Regarding the driver. When I meant hard suspension I meant low excursion. Acoustic pressure equals displacement by volume and displacement equals surface by excursion. In horn we add the horn EQ, so for a given frequency we might have lower excursion, still managing to hit targeting frequency. Sure, with limited cone size we will be obliged to soften suspension but we in horn situation will be doing to lesser degree then it would be in case if it was a direct radiator. So, I would probably need to talk about the concept of “minimum stiffness”. Compression chamber sure will stiffening suspension and driver resonance up but still I would like to find somehow a way to cone to be hard-suspended, still having small size and low resonance. I know that I am taking about impossible things… but I am also talking about a driver that does not exist.

BTW, do you use any other surrounds in your cones besides rubber?  How about the leather-like materials or plastics?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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