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»	New	Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…...	Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…....	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	0	27029	10-09-2005
»	New	Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...	Listener position...	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	1	45167	06-19-2006
»	New	About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...	Big room AEZ...	Playback Listening Forum	15	188947	05-16-2007

08-12-2007

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	1
Post ID:	5007
Reply to:	5007

The not-so-big listening room

Paul S wrote:
The new room is smaller than the old one; in fact it's the smallest room I've used with the DEBZs, and I wondered if this might help the ML2s, if not overall sound quality. I measure the new room at 20' 6" X 17' 2" X 8' = 2,829 cu ft.

Paul,

Here are some thoughts regarding your new smaller room (and small rooms in general)...

The very best results I ever obtained from my previous (non-horn) system was in a radically small room... It measured about 14x12x8.5, with old-school lath and plaster walls. Dealing with the reflections and concentrations of Bass did require a LOT of effort.

There are not only sonic, but psychological advantages to small spaces.

I find myself less able to get into the music when the room is too large or too visually bright (though it is what I currently have, I dislike "airy" listening rooms). The same holds true when trying to solve a problem... I once used the back of a delivery van as a mobile think tank. The value and power of small spaces should not be overlooked.

Best of luck with the setting up.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

08-12-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	2
Post ID:	5008
Reply to:	5007

Large rooms, small rooms....

I think that problems you experienced in large room were NOT due to this excessive size but because they were poorly organized, partially the top of the room. Most of the large rooms are.

The larger rooms (the responsibly large) have some very powerful expressive means in them –longer reverberation time and it is the absolutely undefeatable property. I was trying to fight with it in my small room using my “Counterfeited RT60” invention around active delays channels, it worked very well, but make the setup VERY complex. In properly organized large room with decay time of I would say one second at 40Hz it is possible to get some very interesting results.

I am convinced that with application of PROPER playback setup techniques (very loaded phrase) the amount of problems in large and small rooms are identical but the large room can yield better ratio of benefits per efforts.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-12-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	3
Post ID:	5010
Reply to:	5007

Death, taxes and small rooms

Thanks for the encouragement, Jessie. Actually, a much larger "room" is available, but it is +/- "divided" by wing walls and an archway, along with a large side wall opening, that I know from experience would eff up the space for listening. Not to mention art, furniture, WAF; she has been pretty patient over the decades; but then, I was well into it when we met/married (1968), and I imagine she would let me have the larger space, if I wanted it; in fact, she said as much.

This place is also lath and plaster, which I like as a start. We like to put our rugs over the floor, even in carpeted rooms, but the listening room is only wall-to-wall carpet right now. Although I have in gotten good results with "classic" rear wall treatment in the past, I have not done it yet in two houses with these speakers, and no sense so far (early on) that I should do it here, either. I know pretty much what I am listening for, a certain sense of imminent overload (NOT strain...) where all the colors are popping out, but the overload does not quite happen. Once I get this dialed in, I back off to suit the music. I would say that bass is not really a concern, but why lie about it? I am getting flat bass to < 38 Hz, as usual, but I haven't thought about anything below that yet, and of course the room size plays into this especially with the BR, which "contributes" ziltch below cut-off. This place also has raised floors, as did my last house.

I do have some great recordings that have a sort of "built-in ambience", such that it might be available with headphones. I am not sure what I have in terms of negatives yet, but there are some stong positives, and I will continue, of course. You pays your money and you dodges the taxman.

Best regards,
Paul S

08-25-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	4
Post ID:	5123
Reply to:	5010

Finding and (starting to) deal with room energy.

Cool morning and some great music early, but things got worse as the temperature rose.

I finally +/- gave up on just listening to music and started listening to the ingredients, and then I started to move around the room as I listened.

Based on a sense of congestion (mostly when it's hot...) and certain dynamic issues I think I recognize, I wanted to experiment to find out how much reflected energy was at work and how much cancellation and augmentation was taking place at different spots in the room.

On a hunch (OK, more than a hunch) I started out by standing on my chair so my head was in the "first reflection" spot on the ceiling.

Well, that woke me up! There was probably about twice the mid/upper-mid energy up there than I had at my listening spot! In fact, there was WAY more energy up there, period! I wish I could sit on the ceiling!

I tried draping a couple of towels on the ceiling fan that happens to be beween the speakers right at that spot (married guys, don't try this at home!), and it worked well enough to listen through the Everest/Stokowski "Till Eulenspiegel" and "Don Juan"; and it's hot out. Not bad, at all!

I am not sure it fits here, but I have also +/- plugged my BR slots, and the bass in this room now better extends the Lowthers. I do not seem to lose any extension in this room (from the vent plugs), which is about what I suspected.

In the past I have used lightweight "Homosote" panels covered with fabric by spacing them just off the walls. I have also made "cylinders" with chicken wire and lined 1/2 - 2/3 of their circumference with fiberglass insulation, and coverd them with cloth, for "tuning" corners (just rotate the partial cylinder to taste). These can be effective room treatments, but my wife absolutely hates this stuff! She just laughed at the towels on the ceiling fan today, because she knows I know better than to leave it there! I have never tried it before, but we have quiote a few tall wooden sculptures that might do in the corners. (BTW, my wife would shoot me if she knoew I was thinking of using the art as room treatment, even though she is at peace with the idea that most of the listening room has to be free of large sculpture and concommitment bases.)

So, I wonder how she'll react to the "sails"...

Best regards,
Paul S

08-25-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	5
Post ID:	5124
Reply to:	5123

Sails are sexy and intelligent ... a rare combination.

Paul S wrote:
.... my wife would shoot me .... So, I wonder how she'll react to the "sails"...

Actually if the sails match a room’s decor then it feels strange for a week or two but then no one, even your wife, will pay attention to it. If you use sexy straps then it will make room even more airy… It really looks alien in beginning but it is become absolutely non-present and non-intrusive later on…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-26-2007

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	6
Post ID:	5126
Reply to:	5123

A "Beautiful-Sounding" Room

Paul S wrote :

"...my wife would shoot me if she knew I was thinking of using the art as room treatment..."

My "wife" (we are not actually married) is an artist... A while ago I had the idea to stuff the chassis of her paintings from the rear side using thick damping felt (the kind of thing they used to use under the hoods of cars) which matches the depth of the wooden chassis about perfectly... I have not yet done it, but this is in the plan.

Has anyone ever tried this?

I would guess that the surface of the treated canvas would not allow the felt to work as effectively as if it were left a bare felt panel.

Also, I'm thinking it may help to space the paintings out about an inch from the wall.

In any case, due to the flat nature of the felt, I expect that it will likely only have an effect on HF and upper MF.

There are also woven tapestries and carpets that are intended to be hung on the wall. Since these are more acoustically transparent than a treated artists canvas, loading damping material behind them should yield a better result than would be the case with a painting (though one may not need that much damping, and the tapestry or carpet alone may be enough).

In your case Paul, you might also consider/be permitted to use bookshelves.

I personally don't care how the room looks, as long as it does not make me feel too observable/vulnerable (I dislike being observed when listening to music). And being able to control the light seems essential.

Also, don't forget; cats absorb sound!

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

08-26-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	7
Post ID:	5127
Reply to:	5126

The artist's touch

Well, wouldn't you know that my wife is an artist, too. Although she hasn't been very productive for the past couple of years, she is totally over-the-top manic when she does work, and we have the usual artist's home, with tons of art she did not sell along with tons we bought, and also stuff she traded for. It literally takes a full moving van to move it.

I can tell you that the "painting trick" does work, but not as well as Homosote (SP? that fiberous crap, like rotten particle board), and, yes, it should be spaced loosely off the wall. Of course, it works better with large paintings. But don't make the mistake of sharing your plan with the artist!

The key to any success (and peace) I could find would be keeping the "room treatment" part to myself. Also, and a long way from least, my wife is didactic about where things go, and particularly so with respect to where the art goes. She is so good at it that I generally let her take care of it, and she relents somewhat in my spaces (but not about the art!).

For all the fact that I tend to do one thing to the exclusion of other things, with the result that things tend get messy around me ("knee-deep- itis"), I do actually care how my listening space looks. I don't like being looked at, either, but I don't always need it dark; in fact I am quite restless at times, especially while I am dialing something in, which has been pretty much constant, what with all the new gear and new digs twice in one year. And now I'm dragging in digital...

Most of my books are in my office, but this time I will be keeping most of my recordings in Expedit shelves in the listening room. Here, too, wife is at work; she wants to interstice art with the records, meaning I have to add shelves, meaning I haven't gotten to put my records up yet, meaning I have to dig through boxes to find what I want to listen to. I can't find Cosi Fan Tutte, just the "highlights", etc., blah, blah.

Lots of little Maltese DOGS in my house (but no Republicans)...

At any rate, I am very encouraged by yesterday's experiments.

Thanks for the reminder about tapestries/hangings!

I am also thinking, "drapes"...

What woman doesn't like "drapes"?

...drapes, and sails...

Best regards,
Paul S

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…...	Do not over-damped your rooms and particularly…....	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	0	27029	10-09-2005
»	New	Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...	Listener position...	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	1	45167	06-19-2006
»	New	About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning...	Big room AEZ...	Playback Listening Forum	15	188947	05-16-2007