There is nothing as funny in internet high-end audio as learning about silliness of horn people. I have a huge collection images with different horn installations, one more silly the other, but any day brings the new pearls…

Here is a guy form Brazil. He it one of the yahoo-audio-designers who believes that a speakers designer should not have any brains or ears but only shell have DSP processing that should address all problems.

Anyhow, here is his horn installation degined for him by Yamamura San.

I would leave aside his brainless “symmetrical 24 dB/octave” and many other things that this guy does… let just look at the horns: 60Hz-500Hz-15 kHz. This is a homework for you: why the decisions that were made in this installation are ridiculous?

pe1mmk wrote:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Playback/Site_images/Macondo5_1.jpg Is this about the same as the above brazillian? Oh I really like these horns ;-) Oops, I think I am gonna be killed by a Cat...........

angeloitacare wrote:

your site is very educational for me, and shure for many people who frequent your site. But at the same time, it really nervs to see your snobism, your percepcion that who is not so educated, has so much knowledge like you, is a moron ( how is it boring to read all the time this word ! ) your unpoliteness, your arrogance, the way you treat people. See how much you said only in the thread above: primitivism,idiots,senselessness,no understanding,behaved like 6 years old does it really need to answer in this way ? ok, the guy may wrote a stupid thread, but it just seems you love to humiliate people... just a little bit nicer, romy, wont be bad for your blog, and the respect people will have for you. Than it will be more fun to be around here.

Angelo,

An idiot, in the given context, is the person who does not engage the issue-under-examination but tries to search a rational to discredit opponent with extraneous accusations. What the hell your desire to educate other adults with manners has to do with the subject of this thread? If you do not have anything ho express on the subject then can you juts do not post anything? Why the readers of that site and myself should read your simplistic Oprah-crap, would be juts because you are numb and deaf on the actual subjects? Generally, I do nothing else in my communication with internet-posters besides reflecting and amplifying the idiocy of a given poster (if I find it necessary). BTW, this is the reasons why I tend do not reply your posts – because I would like to keep use of the profanities down.

pe1mmk wrote:

Well Cat you can call me whatever you like, but you still did not answer my question. Both have a horn for highs, for mids and for lows, only the sub lows are handled differently.

I do not think I called you with names. Names are just symbols - expressing certain thinking some people insistingly suggest associating them with the emblematic names.  If the “horn for highs, for mids and for lows…” was only the things that you have seen then good luck for you - the level of Audio Asylum or the Tannoy Group is the perfect place where you will find collaborators of your magnitude. BTW, are you the guy who runs that Tannoy Group?

Wojtek wrote:

Mid -range horn seems very small for 500Hz cross I bet it is its cutoff frequency -not good

Well, the guy said that he uses symmetrical 24 dB/octave everywhere – so it enough to run away doe the tape rate of the MF horn but to use 24dB? And partially in the horns?  I think it is better drive the system from the output of a cellular phone…

Merlin wrote:

There are many ways to skin a cat - none of which get close to being right. The only moronic thing I can see is to criticise a solution that has not been heard and is not intended for your ears.

It is incorrect Merlin. It is summit of stupidity to look at the pictures and without understanding what is going on to criticize. However, the people who are familiar with the subject see no only the colorful pixels but intentions, means and topological accomplishments with witch they dealt with and have reference points.

RonyWeissman wrote:

He must be getting a lot of sound out of the back of those woofers right into his listening field.

No kidding! How dare you make such a Moronic statements if you never heard and is not intended for your ears!!! :-)

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Ok... Assuming the lack of time alignment is compensated for via a DSP: There are likely large chunks of the frequency spectrum that go un addressed, and equally large chunks that are mall-addressed. I would say that there are two main ranges where this system does nothing; one on either side of Mid-Range output... Meaning one in the Lower-Mid/Upper-Bass region (in other words, the range where the human ear really digs in)... And another between the Mid-Range and the HF driver. Also, that Mid-Range driver (which looks like it might be better down lower) mated to a 500Hz horn seems questionable. Running it that wide seems like wishful thinking. Also, the horn plus the adapter look too long for 500Hz (but ok, this depends on curve type). The most obvious problem is with the Bass drivers, which are left to radiate both to the front (via the horns) as well as to the rear... which in this case really means to the front!... The rear of the drivers are aimed upward at a 45° angle where the sound would bounce off the ceiling, then continue at 45° right down to the listening point, arriving I would guess somewhat late to the party. This is not something that can be fixed with a DSP (the output from the rear of the cone being physically linked to what comes off the front of the cone). The Bass horns look to be constructed of rubber, or perhaps ABS (plastic)... in any case, not the first choice for rigidity (other possibilty : this user is more advanced than Romy, and has discovered a means of extracting the desirable "Oops Resonances" from a horn!). So to summarize : Output is likely to be limited to very specific ranges. Forget about Lower Bass. There is likely a semblance of Upper-Mid bass (albeit out-of-focus). The real question is what comes out the mouth of that MF horn when loaded with that driver. As for HF, I would guess it is all alone, highlighting the void below it. All in all, perfect for playing that copy of "Café Blue" sitting on the floor. What I see right with this picture : I like the idea of using thick cast metal for the smaller horns... in this case the Mid horns... If only they would have been left with a rough sand-cast surface. Also, though he may be ignorant, you have to admit the guy is at least trying.

Sure, Jessie.  You are right and you even spotted the “Patriarchia” Barber that made me to smile too. Too keep for this horn (it is aluminum-made) without back chamber is so funny that … it become even not funny. The only way to make 60Hz horn so short is open up the throat to full throttle, most likely the full 15” as the size of that 515G driver. If this guy has such a large throat then this horn has very little gain. Let presume that it does +3dB at its lover at its lover knee. Then, (with the back chamber wide opened and positioned where it is) the guy has upperbass MF arrays of two sources, with 3dB between them, reserved polarity and with time discrepancy that could not be addressed at digital domain. Do you want know how it sound? You can easy imitate it with two simple monitors. I would not even go into his MF hors – to spend so many efforts on THAT MF horns!!!!

Anyhow, the guy who own the system it looks like did not design it but recruited a Japanese guy to do it for him (whoever the Yamamura San is). I wish he sue his own brain and ears. Well, but who knows… looking at that "Café Blue" record it is very much might be the case that the drapes match the carper…  :-)

Romy the Cat wrote:

RonyWeissman wrote: He must be getting a lot of sound out of the back of those woofers right into his listening field. No kidding! How dare you make such a Moronic statements if you never heard and is not intended for your ears!!! :-) Rgs, Romy the caT

Jessie, actually I do not think you have seen me complaining about his chose of material (the only problem is the he need to fonish it other the metal). I know little about metals but I am sure that that the thing has a mass, in regard to 500Hz, that makes the chose of material irrelevant.  It obviously was very difficult and expensive to make this MF from bronze or whatever it was and all that I said was: “to spend so many efforts on THAT MF horns”. This horn is similar to the Vitavox “narrow” S2 horn (the one that was use in some CN191) and the imaging problems from that type of horns horn are well know to many people who use them (or similar horns). I presume that it was over $1000 or raw materials in those rectangular horns, not to mention the labor… I have no idea way people went in such huge expenses and did doe not go for a convention radial horn…

To the rest subscribers of the thread, I deleted 5 posts where you kind had fun defeating your egos and did not comply with the subject of this thread not with the subject of this site: “Advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques”. Please do not do it again, it does not serve any purpose and if you will not seas as you will meet the face of the quite mean Pussy.

One thing that is unclear is the mid/HF crossover. Is there more information?

Is the system triamped with S15's or biamped with 2 x S30 and S15? You say the crossover is at 15khz yet the UT-045be has a built in switchable passive crossover which would most likely be set at 16khz. That makes the system sensitivity a poor 98dw/w maximum which makes you wonder why he bothered with the bass horn. You need to provide more in depth information.

Merlin, I wonder why you need more information if according to you: “the solution that has not been heard and is not intended for your ears”. You migration from sightless denial to desire of self-education  is very… I would say fast but  still admirable. Anyhow, I would attribute that older post of yours to the syndrome of intermediate audio-hypochondria and I’m glad that you went over it.

Well, here is the text how the owner of the system describes it:

" Pair of full-range horns and their peripheral electronics. Side-view of left aluminum upper-bass horn + mid-range horn and the small very-high-frequency JBL UT-045Be quietly  'sitting' over an acrylic board.  The single Revel unit covers from below 20 to 60Hz.  Upper-bass horn from 60 to 500Hz;  mid-range horn covers from 500Hz to 15kHz; the super tweeter from 15kHz to inaudibility.  Slopes are symetrical and 24 dB/octave. Close-view of the side of the mid-range bronze horn and the incredible UT-045Be unit. Valve electronics by Eduardo Lima (AUDIOPAX). At left the Master Loudspeaker Designer Bé Yamamura whom I had the opportunity and honor to visit in London, England,  in a distant day of November, 1981.
 
The sound ?  Well ... the sound is natural, very linear but not sterile.  There is an unlimited sense of power and freedom from the deepest  bass notes to the extreme highs.  The image (vertical and horizontal directions) is as precise as like any other studio  monitor ... but the sense of power and majesty with large orchestral and choral works ... is unbelievable !!

Two particular frequencies [one near the cut-off of the upper-bass horn and other, also near the cut-off of the mid-frequency  horn] were audibles using piano and (whispering) female voices.  Both were 'terminated' using very deep notch filters with  a Q of 30 !!

Large horn systems need really large floor spaces and they also have a 'tendency' to work better at unconfortable high SPL  levels.  Good for audio demonstrations but not for the everyday use.  It was very, very difficult and much time was consumed  to 'solve' the problem of the fusion of the particular sound signatures of the Revel and of the upper-bass horn.  This not only  was finally 'solved' but now there aren't any detectable sound signatures coming from both operating ranges and this from  whispering 40 to thunderous 105 dB(A) SPL levels !!!  Really not bad !!!  This 'magic' was only possible after some specific  program routines writen for the state-of-the-art SymNet DSP.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Actually if that horn would not be bending atop, go for another couple feet vertically, consequentially has a smaller throat and of course has a strong back chamber then it would be a very good J-horn (presumably that the walls and joints are not resonating)

FWIW, I've done the cone doping myself, and my first reaction to doping paper cones is suspicion.  Why does it "need" this, and how/why will it really "help"?  But I injected this example only to set it apart from the [Altec] horn doping, relative mass versus X, as I think this still relates to the idea/questions that initiated this thread.

What still remains unclear to me is how to predict/control what I hear as a more-or-less "self-induced" "ringing" in horns that appear to my eyes alike to the bronze example in the picture.  I have also seen/heard chrome-plated horns similar to the bronze example, and they were terrifying.  I don't "see" this in Romy's wide-throated, stumpy, band-limited wooden horns because these are pretty new to me and so do not "ring my bell", as it were, and they also "make sense" to me based on my own experience.  Why do I "see" that the bronze horn will "ring", and/or what am I missing with respect to curves vs. FR vs. throat vs. length in this case that somehow makes this particular bronze "wide-range" horn free of the ringing my experience "tells" me I would hear?  I don't expect a primer in horn design, just assurances that I'm off base would be fine, and I'll do my own homework from there.

Best regards,
Paul S