GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Audio Shopping vs. Piano Shopping.

08-09-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

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Post ID:	18504
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Audio Shopping vs. Piano Shopping.

It is so funny how the things are turning up. Amy brought her grandma’s piano that was not user for good 40 years. After we set it up and tune we concluded that the piano is not good. We concluded that we do discard the sentimental value and will not “work” on this piano and will get another one. We are not in hurry and we slowly looking for another piano. We want 6.3’ grand. That had opened a Pandora Box for all imaginary things.

I want a piano with very specific sound… and I do not play. I however have very precise vision how the sound of the piano shell be and so far we did not see anything that fit the demand. The closest was one 6.1’ Steinway from 1909 but it was also far from what I would like to have.

Amy insists that what I describing to her does not exist. She inform me that the sonic qualities I describe to her exist only within a few selected 9 feet pianos and they easy cost a 1/4 million dollars. I do not know too much about piano abut I do know what sound I would like to get from piano.

The irony is that my piano shopping attitude is very identical to my audio shopping. The pure girl did not know what she is dealing with… I do not care what dress I ware, what car I drive and what curb appeal of my house but I happen do care and do have very high standards about sound producing machines. Her viola in her hands does has a wonderful tone, so why our pianos would not have wonderful qualities as well. This is most likely the only piano we ever going to buy in our life – so why do not please ourselves with worthy sound? How different it shell be from Sound of a playback?

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-09-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
Joined on 10-12-2006

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Self-indulgent fun for the FEW!

If you are a "serious" shopper, then there are bound to be some "serious" brokers in your area. As you know, sometimes there are "whiffs" of the great pianos before they are actually sold. Steinway has certainly done everything they could to obfuscate their "numbering"; but those who care seem to be able to keep track of the special pianos, none the less. Good luck with a D in that space!

Hope your "timing" is fortuitous!

By the way, my enormous old Strich & Zeidler (from my great grandmother) was built in 1895. Talk about "sentimental attachment"!

Best regards,
Paul S

08-09-2012

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Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
Joined on 01-11-2008

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Pandora's Piano

A superbly interesting pursuit...
I would be most interested in that description of that specific sound. It is true that some concert grands do certain things better than smaller pianos but there are rare instances of truly exceptional small(er) pianos. Each piano is a unique instrument; first because of it's design and construction, but it is equally important to know that its sound is very highly dependent on the technician who works on it.
Unless you are stuck on buying a new piano, even a very capable concert grand will not cost anywhere near $250,000 unless it has an exceptional history or veneer. Much like audio, monetary value of pianos has very little to do with its sound. If a dealer has a magnificent sounding Steinway O next to a poorly sounding or badly rebuilt Steinway A, the A will still have a higher price tag on it. And on that subject...buying a rebuilt instrument, one must be very careful.
With my regards,LBJ

I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein

08-09-2012

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skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

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Post ID:	18508
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The Steinway Sound

I was spending my time shopping for pianos a few years ago. I used to work too much, and was looking for an alternate 'right-brain' activity to balance all my time doing engineering at work. I spent a few months listening to every imaginable piano: entry level spinets, vintage concert grands, Steinway, Bosendorfer, Kawai, Chikering, Yamaha, Boston, etc. Different sizes, vintages, brands. I listened to a lot.

Like audio, pianos have unique sounds. My favorite brand is Steinway. The bass is like no other, deep, textured and rich. No doubt others have different opinions, but you owe it to yourself to listen to the larger Steinways, especially given your affinity for bass. But the smaller model S and Ms don't have the magic. Try a B or D, if only for the experience. Pressing the keys gives a feeling of unlimited power, like waiting to launch in a F-18. The sound explodes from the sound board. If space is a premium, suggest auditioning a K52 upright. While lacking the movement of a grand, the soundboard is as large as a 6ft grand, and this model has the rich bass sound I love about Steinways.

Have fun - buying my piano was a very enjoyable experience.

08-10-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

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Too much to ask?

Lbjefferies7 wrote:
I would be most interested in that description of that specific sound.

Well I do understand that with 6.3’ piano I will not get the “crash” of the 9.8’ Bosendorfer but “full bass” is not only what I am looking. I am looking for a balanced piano, with “interesting” tone and with glowing.

I am not claiming that we tried too many pianos but among what we did none of them was “balanced” and only one had any more of less acceptable tone. Under balance I imply that most of the pianos we tried have that “in face” bright presentation, kind of forwarded sound, looks like a typical for all US made interments. I looking more like mellow, laid-back presentation that I remember from German-made pre WWII pianos. A piano has to be balance with proper volume of high and low notes. For sure it all might be to a great degree the property of the space where we hears the given pianos, not to mention the Amy’s sensitivity and comfort to actions of the specific instrument but still, I know exactly what the properly balanced piano shall sound like, even in the worse acoustic conditions and with most unaccustomed player.

The tone is self-explainable. I do admit that I a bit inclined to darker, melancholic, gloomy side of tonality and I would like piano to follow me in there.

The glowing part is the absolutely mandatory to me. The “right” pianos if you hit one single note in any octave surrounds the note with cesspool of sounds that literally glow. It is like piano get ignited and begin to breathe itself. I heard it a couple times, from German Bluthner and from US-made Steinways from 20s and I absolutely want to have it.

Thanks for the warning about the rebuilt instrument. I know it very well. Most technicians treat old pianos like renovating apartment for rent – they juts replaced the worn parts with contemporary plastic one with Teflon gasket and paint it in order new tenant did not see mold. The irony is that the rebuilt in this way pianos sound exactly like that.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-11-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
Joined on 10-12-2006

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Duo-Art, Anyone?

More than a few 20's Steinways were additionally fitted with a Duo-Art system. I have no idea how hard it is to find the rolls these days, but I do know that a certain 1929 Steinway so fitted is one of the most amazing pianos I have ever heard, albeit only via the Everest Archive LPs. While I would guess a piano like "the Wm. Powell Steinway" would be way out of reach, some "serviced" 20s Duo-Arts seem to cost less than a decent car.

Twisted thought, no?

Paul S

08-11-2012

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Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
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Enough, but not too much

...to ask, that is.

Yes, the "default" sound of most US made pianos is more "forward" than not. Mason & Hamlin and Chickering can be brilliant, but are usually "loud." Same is generally true for German Steinways. For mellow presentations, the usual suspects aside from proper Steinway A (the 6'4") and O models are the wonderful but maintenance-intensive Bosendorfer, Ibach, possibly Steingraeber, pre-Samick ownership Seiler 186, and Bluthner. Of all these, probably the "darkest" sounding that I have heard is probably the Ibach.

Bosendorfers are a pain because the nature of their construction requires tuning far more often than others. Their rims are made of massive pieces of spruce all glued together and cut out instead of having bent laminations of maple, beech, etc. The early-2000s Seiler 186 is one of my favorites. Its craftsmanship and fit & finish are simply the best and are very progressive in engineering terms. Very balanced sound and an unusually serious bass. Whatever it means, I am always reminded of Beethoven when I hear one. It may not be quite gloomy enough, but everything about them is brilliant and very different from the "typical" Steinway sound.

"Glowing" is a wonderful quality, indeed and is affected by many many factors. Proper voicing or even changing the hammers (Renner Blue or Blue Points are very good...as are Ronsen) can embellish "glow." You are right...playing a single note (even softly) should "ignite" a piano. The hammer should strike with no or very little initial "pop," then grow and bloom only to evenly diminish...preferably after quite a long time. It is a shame that Mason & Hamlins are likely too forward, because 1920s Model BBs are really wonderful for just this reason. It would be interesting to see if one could be made to be darker, but I have my doubts. A good test in addition to playing a single note is to hold down the sustain pedal and shout at the soundboard like a wounded-in-ass Mexican soccer commentator and listen to how the piano reacts both in volume and breadth of tones.

Duo-Art? A faaaaar less painful option is available and with much better sustain pedal control... Though the size of the decently-playing music library is lacking, and more than half jazz.

Regards,LBJ

I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein

01-26-2013

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Goetz

Hamburg/GER and Gdansk/PL
Posts 11
Joined on 01-14-2013

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Post ID:	18939
Reply to:	18504

Welcome from the hometown of Steinway, Hamburg :)

Experienced piano building/renovation masters here in Germany are recommending, as far as it concerns postwar Steinway's, the one's from the 60's reg. quality of materials as well as manufacturing.
My 89 year old aunt in Karlsruhe is owning (and was playing) the Bluethner Grand piano which my grand parents bought in the 20's. It has a mellow but a fascinating sound however time will come for some decent renovation. We will never sell it out of our family.
Boesendorfer "Imperial" Grand piano is for my perception too soft, not enough defined, but may comply with the sound of elder pianos of 19th century.
I enjoyed a Steinway Upright piano in one of the many exercise rooms in the seventies in Folkwang-University for Music and Dance in Essen/GER, where I managed to get access when I had free time during my high-school days. The school was just around the corner... Smile

I sincerely hope to find next time a spacy loft in Gdansk(Poland), my second home aside of Hamburg. Then a (Steinway) Grand Piano will have priority to audio gear !
Enjoy your weekend!
Cheers
Goetz

01-27-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	10
Post ID:	18943
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Gdansk loft

Goetz wrote:

I sincerely hope to find next time a spacy loft in Gdansk(Poland)

Goetz, when you do it, please let me know! I've just moved to Gdansk.
I have a nice lofty flat there, but the space is too small for a serious acoustic
reproduction. There are great post industrial spaces around Motlawa
and it's channels, but, knowing Polish idiotic corrupt urban policy,
it's either already sold to a big developer or untouchable, but maybe....

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

01-27-2013

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Goetz

Hamburg/GER and Gdansk/PL
Posts 11
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Eastcoast is going Easteurope

Dear Jarek,

Due to my company I'am every week from Monday to Friday in Gdansk, when not visiting our clients or trades in Europe or US.
On weekend I'am with my family in Hamburg.
90% of my ~4500 classic vinyls are in Gdansk as well as my most important audio gear and technical workshop. Piano unfortunately in Hamburg only.
I will change that asap.
I'am also living in the very center of Gdansk. So I will walk by...
You#ll get a mail and let's meet for a dinner targ rybne in the "Fish Restaurant" (f.e.)
Have a nice evening and sucessfull start into the new week.

03-04-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

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Post ID:	19070
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Yesterday

Yesterday Kitty and me, while waking from the Carnegie Hole concert dropped in at Manhattan piano show rooms and played some pianos that we would not see in our provincial Boston. They were big Steinways, Bosendorfers, Steingraeber, Bluethners, vataghe and new, along and many other interesting instruments and we actually did have fin to hear them. I am very much undusted that the walk-in showrooms a pretty much for Morons and those polished and genetically rebuild pianos are glossy wrappers of empty suits. The pianos did sound very ugly in my view. Regardless the price, that were astronomical I did not hear any people that I like. The ugliest of all was 9.5 feet super duper Bosendorfer that sound more like a synthetic harp then a grand piano. For sure in better listening environment any piano might be tuned and voiced to be different but if you sit in a new car at auto dealer and realize that brake does not work then will you care to look for anything further in this car?

There was however something that we did learned. We discovered the Mason-Hamlin pianos. They had a few in there and I very much preferred this sound to anything else they have in there. It was large, it was mellow and not in my face, it was dark but at the same time it has that clarity that I found very attractive. Ironically the Mason-Hamlins are made in … Boston, so we will be looking for some local Mason-Hamlin to try, preferably vintage, to see how they sound and behave.

The reason why I tell this story is not our discovery of Mason-Hamlin but to comply with the subject of this thread: Audio Shopping vs. Piano Shopping. You remember my constant run that in high end audio we pretty much have generic mass-market audio where objectives and reference point of audio listened are not factored in? Well, I was slowly looking for good local piano rebuilder I come across Jim Laleggio from Shirley, Massachusetts. I do not know Jim but he had very stimulating article on his web site. If you replace in his article the phrase “restore piano” to the phase “build audio” then you will get what I uselessly imply:

http://www.grandpianosolutions.com/why-rebuild-your-piano.html

For sure we do not buy any Mason-Hamlin now and we do not run to Jim Laleggio to voice it. I just bring this illustration as … an illustration.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-19-2013

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,673
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Sleuthing

Here is more than no information on the "original Harold Powell Duo Art", which gives a little provenance on where the "batch" that it came from originated. Also, as you will see, it is only 7', which surprised me, a little.

Sorry for being cryptic and listing it as "the Wm. Powell [Steinway]", earlier.

http://www.mmdigest.com/Archives/Digests/200910/2009.10.07.03.html

FYI, all punters, Harold Powell just passed away, not so long ago, I think. As I recall, he was a "known" sound engineer with NBC for many years, lived in the Hollywood Hills, above Sunset. I don't recall anything at all about his family, but a sale like this would likely be preceded by "feelers" both ways, I think. I don't know if (Sony's) Joseph Tushinsky is still alive, or if he is still "active". If he is both, and the heirs would sell it, then he probably has "first dibs" on that particular piano.

The game is afoot...

Best regards,
Paul S

03-02-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
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Post #:	18
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Ah….

We kind of slowly were looking, and looking and looking and suddenly today we were blessed with news that Kitty’s parents let up to use their 7.6’ Yamaha C7. It is interment from 70s and Amy loves it as she learned as kid and then taught on this piano. The piano is sitting in parent’s living room for years and shall be in a good condition. Amy tells that it has slightly bright sound but I think it might be moderated by voicing. When I hit a few time the keys in parent house I remember that it was for sure large sound.

I do not know how this Yamaha will sound; I think any instilment shall be judged on individual merit. I do think that this over 7 feet little monster will address our needs for now and will be fine for Amy’s chamber music pianists. I personally much prefer Amy do not drive 25 miles to play her piano quarters but were able to do it home…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-27-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
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The Roland V-Piano Grand

Hm, this is $25K. I wonder what produces sound in there - a loudspeaker? If so, than would LOVE to connect it to Macondo and see what happen. I need to admit that in all of those videos the D-pianos do sound like shit but the concept is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkdhgxEXd6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D-Alzt0viE

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-04-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
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The piano saga is continuing

Nope, we eventfully do not get the family Yamaha C7 and now we are on the market and looking for a piano . From what we have seen and learned we now are looking for Mason and Hamlin of 6.3 feet made before mid 30s of 20 century. They need to be rebuilt and the rebuilding is the bitch. It tune out that re-builder not true know what they do and many of them kill proper sound of instrument. So, we are looking for an accidentally good sounding piano. Taking about accidentally good sounding piano. Believe me of not I have met as phenomenally good sounding sound piano and it was used and rebuild Yamaha C6 from 90s. I never heard that Yamaha might so wonderfuly-dark and mellow, almost golden. The sales people presented is some kind of “rebuilding fluke” and asked very much money for it – good 20K more than the instrument worth. Honestly I do not blame them.

My poor wifey is very pissed with me as according to her with my sonic demands and my unwillingness to pay $50K for a damn piano she feel that we never find a piano to buy. Well, it is given – I am pain in ass shopper but I responded that I was shopping for wife for 42 years and then god a pure-gold-wife for bargain price. She was contemplated for while if it was a compliment of insult and then suggested that I am an imp. I need to look in a dictionary what it means...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-07-2014

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c1ferrari
Southern California
Posts 9
Joined on 10-23-2011

Post #:	23
Post ID:	21158
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Pity

"Nope, we eventfully do not get the family Yamaha C7..."

Sadness.

"My poor wifey is very pissed with me...Well, it is given – I am pain in ass shopper but I responded that I was shopping for wife for 42 years and then got a pure-gold-wife for a bargain price. She was contemplated for while if it was a compliment of insult and then suggested that I am an imp. I need to look in a dictionary what it means..."

Too funny :-)

Very best regards,
Sam

08-16-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	24
Post ID:	21169
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Interesting.

We are keep looking for our new piano, did not get anything yet but have learned a lot of interesting things. Currently we are bidding for a very nice 1909 Mason & Hamlin not far from us. It is nicely restored instrument and we brought out technician to on the seller home to look at the piano. That was so much fan! The ability to adjust some mechanical gismos in the piano and to shape sound in deniable way for some reasons made me almost horny. The fan part that the technician actually was listening my feedback and made adjusts in accordance with what I want to hear. Where the hell can I find a technician like this in audio?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-28-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
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Post #:	25
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Humidity control piano vs. room.

Hey, what do you know? We got that 1908 Mason and Hamlin. It was delivered last night and I have made Any to play for me my Mikael Tariverdiev's Memories sonata. The Mason does need some work and our technician told that she will do it in a week of so... " after the piano get use to the new room". I generally like the sound of this instrument and it shall be much better after some minor problems will be address. IT does not have that "glowing" lower register of larger pianos but I think this all size that we need in our current room.

I am thinking now about a climate control. For the piano. It is most in the lace we leave. The Dampp-Chaser systems are fine but they control humidity in a small zone under soundboard and by passive methods. It is also $650. For this money I am considering to put in use a whole room humidity control system. The house has hot water heating and center air-conditioning, and a huge basement under piano room. I do not think it should be hard to put some kind of stationary humidity control system in basement...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche