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04-27-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 956
Reply to: 953
Ortofon SPU loading...

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 guy sergeant wrote:
On the Ortofon website those models of the SPU which don't come with inbuilt transformers, have a recommended load of >100 ohm. Using the cartridge into too low an impedance load definitely does lift the lower frequencies. Too high and the upper mid/HF is emphasised. You may want to try a little higher than 90R. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it....
Guy, using a cartridge into too lower impedance does not “lift lower frequencies” but loose HF and make LF more puffy and damped. I usually overload the cartridges until the HF begin to rolled-off but bass yet did not begin to become sound like… the absolute phase is inverted.

Ortofon unfortunately does not publish how to load the SPU. In thier site they said 47Kohm but this is, am sure, for a transformers bult-in. Probably they never publish the recommended load for their “raw” SPU cartridges because they would like people to think that SPU are identical to the Ortofon not-SPU model and consequentially people might use the default Ortofon step-up transformers. Probably it is too much for a conspiracy theorists and particularly form me – the person who it not well familiar with Ortofons.

Here is how I see it is and I do not think that it is very far from what it is. Ortofon SPU Mono is very atypically high impedance (DCR) cartridge with a lot wire inside – it is 100Ohm. The MC cartridges usually should be loaded into 2-3 times of their DCR. This would make 200R-300R an optimum impedance for SPU Mono. I ended up running it into 26dB transformer and 90K load that end up with 90K/676=133R. It is at the lower side but as I said I like to overload the cartridges and it sounds very fine to me now.

Still, despite of the “loading secrecy” that Ortofon looks like spared around this needle I very glad that I unrolled into this projects.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 987
Reply to: 324
My privet public SPU disaster!!!

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I juts got home, put a record to play and suddenly discovered that my SPU has it’s cantilever bent 90 degree and then even twisted vertically. It was perfectly fine last night!!! I have no idea what kind forced what applied to it and particularly how it happened but it look that it dead now. I tried to straight the cantilever up but it dose not look kosher for me after I have done it. I really like the cartridge and I would like to continue to use it. Is anyone knows who replaces cantilevers on the Ortofon SPU? I heard Van den Hul does those types of surgeries but I am sure thathe will not put the original needle but his long profile version. Is anyone else does it? Perhaps Ortofon does it? Certainly if all goers wrong then I will buy another one but it is kind of shame to trash practically new cartridge…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 988
Reply to: 987
Send it to its Maker

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Best contact Ortofon in Denmark and arrange through them (unless you bought through a US dealer).
They will send you another one on receipt of the damaged one.
Charge you replacement cost for it though - compare with Japanese price for new.



Bad luck Romy, is Koshka looking sheepish?

Brian.
05-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 990
Reply to: 988
Re: Send it to its Maker

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 Brian Clark wrote:
Best contact Ortofon in Denmark and arrange through them (unless you bought through a US dealer). They will send you another one on receipt of the damaged one. Charge you replacement cost for it though - compare with Japanese price for new. Bad luck Romy, is Koshka looking sheepish?
Thanks, Brian.

I ended up getting another one. So unpractical but it is what it is. Now I have practically new SPU-motor with no needle - so sad- what can do with it! Another sad part of that mysteries story that I have no recollection or a slightest idea when and how it might happen. Thos high mass tonearms are always expose an extra vulnerability on the cartridges but I always kind of knew before that I did something wrong and that the certain accidental actions of mine did the specific damage. In this care I juts did not catch how it happened! My Cat does not go to my TT and there was no one in my room since I was not broken. Mentally I settled down with an idea that someone broke-in into my room, destroyed the SPU’s cantilever and escaped. Isn’t too much for a person who pretends to have remove sights of intelligence?

:-)
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 991
Reply to: 832
Disasters can be opportunities too!

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Romy, it has just struck me that you could try and find someone who could replace with a smaller diameter diamond, a 17 mil or even a 12 mil! Then you could experiment with which type best suits your favourite mono pressings. This is what professional transcriptors do, choose the needle for the job.

Sound out Reto Luigi Andreoli (The "Magic Diamond" man) in Switzerland and see what he says - he has a LOT of experience with SPUs : fax: +41 1 803 13 08

As for the cause of the distressed cantilever, my hypothesis is that someone you have upset is a good friend of Uri Geller!

Brian.
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 992
Reply to: 991
Yes, it might be.

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Brian,

Thanks again, I heard about this guy but never dealt with him or heard his cartridges. Can you dig his phone number or his email (I do not do faxes)? Certainly it is t might be an interesting opportunity to do something with it. My current SPU has a note “DIAM.25”

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 993
Reply to: 992
Contacting Andreoli

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I have never contacted Mr Andreoli but his fax number was passed onto me for a friend by Christian Rintelen of HiFi Scene magazine in Switzerland. Maybe the fax number is also Andreoli's 'phone number? Christian said that he is not online.

25micrometres = 1 thousandth of an inch ("mil"), for standard mono microgroove

17.5 um = 0.7 mil, the DL-102 stylus diameter

12.5 um = 0.5 mil, was briefly available in the early days of stereo.

Whichever gives the best result will depend on where wear is least in the mono groove - but avoiding scraping the bottom.

I believe the Expert Stylus Company in the UK can install truncated conical styli which will avoid the dreaded bottom scrape with 0.5 mil.

Phone : 01 44 1372 276604 to speak with their Mr Hodgson.

Brian.

05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 995
Reply to: 993
Ortofon MONO CG 25 Di

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Who know anything about this needle?

I am playing now this CG-25 - my new Ortofon replacement. This new cartridge is turn out to be “MONO CG 25 Di”. It looks and feel completely different and this CG-25 is what I called the TRUE mono cartridge. It has one single coil with a single pair of contacts. So, it is not the regular SPU cartridge strapped in mono setting.

This CG-25 is heavier and has a half of output of SPU MONO. However, the differents on the output voltage is not auditable and I use the same “clicks” on my preamp. According to Ortofon the CG-25 has more reasonable 2R of internal DCR and should be loaded into >100R. I drive CG-25 into the no-step-up, directly to my two stages, penthod-input, air-cap phonocorrector, the very same that I used for the SPU MONO, and use the very same arm and the same all the rest settings.

To my surprise it sounds like the CG-25 is actually even better then SPU MONO. It has SCIENTIFICALLY less surface nose then I had with SPU MONO, although the SPU MONO have it way less then stereo cartridges. It looks like the CG-25 has less “upperbass forwardness” then the SPU MONO. Is it due to the differents of the internal impedance (100Rvs 2R) or because any other reasons I do not know but it all together sounds more “compiled” tonally.

The CG-25 does sound slightly sharper and less lush then SPU MONO. Certainly I do make a correction that this cartridge is juts out of box.  I remember how the SPU MONO sounded brand new and the CG-25 is more vigor. Probably it is because the CG-25 has way shorter cantilever that reduces the compliance of the cartridge. As the result, my tonearm “sounds” with less effective mass for the given cartridges. Anyhow, I find the this change is somehow beneficial at this point and my new CG-25 has less “Ortofonissness” and more sounds like a normal neutral cartridge  (closer to Shelter?)

In any case, I did not play with masses, VTFs, VTAs and with anything else, letting this needle to run for a few days and settle down. Certainly it is a slightly different animal then the SPU MONO, still very pleasant but with less attitude. I will let know how it will work out for me.

Regarding the SPU MONO: Thanks again, Brian. Sometimes later I will contact the European guys with fixing my killed in actions SPU MONO. Who knows, perhaps in a week or two I will not have any motivation to do so….

So, I hope…
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 996
Reply to: 995
The Mother and Father of MC carts

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What you have there Romy is essentially the cartridge Ortofon introduced in 1948, the first production moving coil cartridge.
The motor is the same, just the "suspension" material changed from india rubber to a modern elastomer AFAIK. Also the G-style headshell only dates from 1959 (SPU introduction).

I will be VERY interested in your more thorough evaluation. I hummed and hawed between the CG 25Dia and the SPU Mono before springing for the latter, expected next week. My speakers could do with a bit of upper bass help.

I will be playing with both SME 3012 Series 2 and Series 1, the latter expressly developed for the SPU and also used by Neumann for playback of acetates on their cutting lathes.

Brian.
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
deemon
Posts 24
Joined on 05-25-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 997
Reply to: 987
Re: My privet public SPU disaster!!!

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 Romy the Cat wrote:

I juts got home, put a record to play and suddenly discovered that my SPU has it’s cantilever bent 90 degree and then even twisted vertically. It was perfectly fine last night!!! I have no idea what kind forced what applied to it and particularly how it happened but it look that it dead now. 


Roma , it was the cat ! :-) My friend had old Ortofon SPU cartridge ( looks like yours SPU mono ) , and one morning he found that it's cantilever was bent , almost rectangular . And only the cat was in the room all the night ! After it he gave the cartridge to me , and I repaired it - straightened cantilever with pincers ..... now it seems to be OK . But I wonder WHAT does attract those beasts to this cartridge type ???? It's a real mystery .......

Dima
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 998
Reply to: 996
Interesting: 25Dia VS SPU

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 Brian Clark wrote:
What you have there Romy is essentially the cartridge Ortofon introduced in 1948, the first production moving coil cartridge.
The motor is the same, just the "suspension" material changed from india rubber to a modern elastomer AFAIK. Also the G-style headshell only dates from 1959 (SPU introduction).

I will be VERY interested in your more thorough evaluation. I hummed and hawed between the CG 25Dia and the SPU Mono before springing for the latter, expected next week. My speakers could do with a bit of upper bass help.

I will be playing with both SME 3012 Series 2 and Series 1, the latter expressly developed for the SPU and also used by Neumann for playback of acetates on their cutting lathes.

I have no problems with 25Dia so far beside the slight sharpness and a very slight bass deficiency. It looks like the entire balance very slightly moved up but… it is a new needle. Also, despite that the balance is moved I feel that it more even then the SPU version. Anyhow, I use now a very minor negative VTA. When you used your 25Dia then can you recall a similar experience at the beginning of the cartridge live (sharpness and bass)? If now then I would add the10g-15g of effective mass and it will be it. If this cartridge is replica of the 1948 model then it should use a hugely heavy arm. No wonder that Ortofon does not quote its compliance on thier web site: presumably they did not want to scare people. I can actual see the there is not complaints in the cantilever when I lower this thing in the groove.

Rgs,
The Cat

BTW: the SME 3012 Series 1 use heavier tube and have heavier affective mass, so it should be more suitable to the 25Dia


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 999
Reply to: 998
Re: Interesting: 25Dia VS SPU

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 Romy the Cat wrote:
<P> When you used your 25Dia then can you recall a similar experience at the beginning of the cartridge live (sharpness and bass)? </P>


I have yet to own a CG25 Romy, my very first Ortofon - SPU Mono - is on its way from Japan

<P> If this cartridge is replica of the 1948 model then it should use a hugely heavy arm. No wonder that Ortofon does not quote its compliance on thier web site: presumably they did not want to scare people. I can actual see the there is not complaints in the cantilever when I lower this thing in the groove.</P>


Yes, that cartridge has NO vertical compliance AT ALL. Keep it away from your precious stereo pressings at all costs!

I wonder if Koshka thought the G-shell SPU was a black mouse....
The CG should be robust enough to withstand feline onslaught!

Brian.
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 1000
Reply to: 999
25Dia, moronity and ...sushi
 Brian Clark wrote:
Yes, that cartridge has NO vertical compliance AT ALL. Keep it away from your precious stereo pressings at all costs!
Oops, you are right!!! What the hell I was expected to see! Sorry for being a Moron! This is funny that you, the British guy, buy a European made cartridge in Japan… Anyhow, I will keep playing it. Also, I will punish my Koshka: this weekend she will have no sushi. Although I do not think she did it but a diet will not hurt to this lazy bitch. :-)

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 1001
Reply to: 1000
Re: 25Dia, moronity and ...sushi

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 Romy the Cat wrote:
This is funny that you, the British guy, buy a European made cartridge in Japan…
Yes, I'm laughing - I've saved 40% on the Euro price! ;o) Brian.
05-14-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 1003
Reply to: 996
25Dia vs SPU: a first premature draft

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 Brian Clark wrote:
I will be VERY interested in your more thorough evaluation. I hummed and hawed between the CG 25Dia and the SPU Mono before springing for the latter, expected next week. My speakers could do with a bit of upper bass help.

It was in interesting day: I spent most of it listing. I friend of mine sent me a new amp to test, the new Mono cartridge, a pile of new records….

The 25Dia lost some of it's virginity and I did play with it a little. Generally I was able to get the bass out of it and it now does OK bass.  As I said before – the 25Dia is more neutral and more high-tech sounding cartridge then SPU-mono. It more evenly balanced faster and less attracting attention to itself. It slightly zippier then I would like, perhaps it will go away in a few days. However, despite that I feel that 25Dia is higher performance cartridge I still feel that the sound of SPU has own rational, even more: now I am missing it. That SPU’s upper bass forwardness (about witch I complained) combined with some softness and the subdued flashiness was very interesting and created own delightfulness and beauty. I understand that it was sort of glorification of music, even up to the point of embellishment, but it had own sense and at the level HOW it was done I find it was very interesting.

Now I am spinning the Beecham’s “Carmen” with Victoria de los Angeles form 1952. I wrapped my tweeters in toilet paper and it sound more or less OK. With SPU I did not use the toilet paper on my tweeters. Also the voices and instruments sounded with SPU kind of reached and nobler… Perhaps the SPU and 25Dia have the different breaking-in patterns. Will see in a week…

Rgs,
The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-03-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 1139
Reply to: 828
Re: This should help

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Brian (or someone else who knows...)-

I just obtained an SPU mono today, believing it was the 25 micrometer stylus version when I purchased.  In fact, it is the 65 um version.  Is the 65 ONLY suitable for 78 playback, or is this thing usable on my 33.3 rpm LPs?  Naturally, I'm pretty disappointed, since I specifically asked if it was a 25, and I have been waiting to listen to it for a while.

Thank you,
Scott
07-04-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 1140
Reply to: 1139
Oh dear...

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Hello Scott, since the microgroove specification states groove width as 2.6 mil and 65 um is also 2.6 mil you will see that the stylus will only ride the top of the groove and not enter it.
So it's not so much danger of damaging your LPs but of simply not being able to play them.

If for some reason you cannot get satisfaction from the vendor you could perhaps fork out for a retip from Expert Stylus, asking for a 0.7mil (stereo-compatible) stylus to increase the versatility of the cartridge.

Brian.

07-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 1150
Reply to: 1140
Re: Oh dear...

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Thank you Brian - you confirmed what I feared. 

Caveat emptor.  The seller is the former Van denHul repair guy in Germany -  Detlev Brod.  He offered a new SPU mono, at a price too good to be true.  I specified the GM25, and when I contacted him to inform him of the error, he told me that it doesn't matter - they are both monos!!!!!

since these are conical styli, is there any downside to retipping with a "non-Ortofon" stylus.  Assuming the retipping is done properly?  Does supension, compliance, output, or something else change?

scott

07-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 1151
Reply to: 1150
Conical retipping

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 skushino wrote:
Thank you Brian - you confirmed what I feared.Caveat emptor. The seller is the former Van denHul repair guy in Germany - Detlev Brod. He offered a new SPU mono, at a price too good to be true. I specified the GM25, and when I contacted him to inform him of the error, he told me that it doesn't matter - they are both monos!!!!!


The bastard!

Since these are conical styli, is there any downside to retipping with a "non-Ortofon" stylus.Assuming the retipping is done properly? Does supension, compliance, output, or something else change?


There should be no downside at all if you use somebody like the chap at Expert Stylus, UK (who sells SPUs at good price, almost as cheap as sourcing from Japan I've recently learned) or Andreoli in Switzerland.

Brian.
07-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 1152
Reply to: 1151
Thank you
Brian- Thanks for the tip (pardon the pun).  I really appreciate it!  I'll have to exercise some patience before listening in mono....
01-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 46
Post ID: 3444
Reply to: 946
ZYX Mono wish answered. But is this company for real?

 Brian Clark wrote:

Perhaps Zyx will come out with a mono cart one day soon since they are now fashionable.

Brian.

Sorry to be responding to an old post but ZYX has just released a mono cart which costs less than 400 dollars in Japan.
I found out when I was recently lectured on how all stereo MCs are flawed in channel balance because ZYX has got the patents on the remedy. They all lack “real stereo” which leads to compromised stereo imaging and S/N ratio.

Now, Romy has taught us to think about what is missing or wrong with the sound first before we upgrade, and I think that is very good advice. I am therefore rather skeptical and am in no rush to dump my Ikeda and Koetsu.

But, I was told that this phenomenon is very easily verifiable by playing left and right speakers separately and noticing big imbalance for non-ZYX carts.

And (confession time) I usually listen to music at very low volumes (headphones if I need loud music), so maybe I have merely failed to notice "a serious channel imbalance problem"?
01-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 3445
Reply to: 3444
Monogamy
That sounds a decent price, less than my (Japan-sourced) SPU Mono.
However, SPU's the gal for me and I reckon we're married for life.

I listen at civilised levels too John - tho' neighbours have just left for 3 months in Kenya........

Brian.
07-29-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 4831
Reply to: 324
Good summarizing file about SPU cartridges' data.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/Ortofon_SPU.pdf


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 7520
Reply to: 824
The Ortofon SPU Mono wiring diagram.
Do any of you, the  SPU Mono users, know how the SPU MONO coils wired internally? Is it a stereo cartridge strapped mono or it is a single coil cartridge with two channels running in parallel from the same coil? Is anyhow even seen anything describing how the SPU Mono done internally. It is not just a trivia question, I have reasons to ask.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 7521
Reply to: 7520
SPU Mono, fact & conjecture
Per Winfeld confirmed to me that the coil former assembly is rotated 45% compared to the regular SPU such that only lateral motion is sensed. Unfortunately I did not think to ask him how the coil/coils was/were wound. Since the quoted DCR is significantly higher than for the SPU GM - 100ohms vs 6 ohms - I can only speculate that (a) there are more turns on the the former and (b) there are two coils are connected in series and the two outputs are taken in parallel.

My SPU Mono is currently with Expert Stylus for re-tipping and I have just rung them but unfortunately Mr Hodgson Snr, who had a long working relationship with Winfeld until the latter's retirement, was not in. Hopefully I should be able to establish the facts with him tomorrow.


Brian.
Page 2 of 3 (55 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  30981  02-01-2007
  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  779572  09-05-2008
  »  New  The Softer Side of a Hard-Tracing Cartridge..  [how] to get it right from the start......  Analog Playback Forum     12  107894  05-24-2009
  »  New  The mono cartridges paradox...  More info on Pierre Clement...  Analog Playback Forum     11  91534  11-29-2010
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