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  »  New  Do not pursue full-range without being ready...  ...observing the better and worst in upper bass......  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     8  82454  01-02-2005
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  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  819184  10-19-2006
  »  New  EnABL: Just a note to awaken all of you peaceful sleepe..  I think "the Russian" is simply trying to con...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  118133  04-14-2007
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  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  343841  02-27-2011
  »  New  Fostex tweeters, Lowther broadbanders on a limited rang..  How Much Best?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  24775  04-12-2011
08-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005
Post #: 26
Post ID: 5041
Reply to: 5039
I'll give it a try
Recently, I added JBL 2220 for below 200 and replaced TOA DSP with Pioneer D-23 4way active crossover.  The result is very positive, but there are still many issues I'd like to attend.

I'll be out of country early in September so that'll be a good time to send the drivers to Bud for the treatment.

Bud, would you let me know the cost, shipping address and the turn-out time?  You can e-mail me directly (sakurastms@aol.com).

I took off the wizzer cone since I'm using it only 200~1000Hz, so it'll be easier than normal Lowther.

Yoshi
08-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005
Post #: 27
Post ID: 5042
Reply to: 5041
Just one more for the road
For those of you who cringe at the thought of making a change in your costly drivers and not knowing if it has been a disaster until it is, or is not. Here is a post from an inventive lad who claims to live in an ivory tower, but has a practical answer for you.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1277501#post1277501

Bud
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005
Post #: 28
Post ID: 5054
Reply to: 5042
"Yellow"ness of Lowther
Romy dropped by yesterday.  He goddamn demonstrated how "yellow" and compressed the Lowther (Reps-1, in my case) is, using my system, by simply playing other channels and the Lowther channal separately (mine is a 4way multi-amp set up, so it's very easy to do).  I never tried to evaluate the sound by listening each channels separately because, (1) I never trusted my ear to be able to do that, (2) I had a certain fixation on Lowther (my system actually evolved around the Reps driver).  In my system, Reps-1 covers 200~1000 in 3 cu/ft box, below 200 is JBL 2220 in an aperiodic cabinet, above 1000 is JBL 2450 with Edger tractrix (1000~10,000) and Pioneer RT-8T (10,000~), all with 12db slope.

While the combined 3 other channels breath more naturally with ups and downs of the dymanics of the music, the Reps channel is severely compressed with honky coloration.  I'd been aware of some compression but always attributed it to the room (12' x 18') and the limited flexibility of the setting (I can only set it on the short wall end).  I was never concsiously aware of the coloration although some feeling of strange warmth always lingered around.  It's like the combined other channels play in 30db dynamic range with more natural tone (though monochromic withoud the mid range), while Reps operates within 5db with coloration of old sepia photograph!

My system had evolved to overcome the obvious shortcomings of the Reps driver, to eliminate the peak and the confused bottom end of the backloard horn cabinet, in short.  Now, it ended up like peeling an onion (nothing left at the core)!  Boo!!
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 29
Post ID: 5055
Reply to: 5054
To coin a phrase
Buck up, Yoshi.  I get what you are saying about "yellow", but this sort of de-construction excercise can be done with any driver.

For one thing, 3 cu. ft is way too big.  If you must have a box, try 1/2 that size.

I think the Lowther [sic] trails off below 400 Hz without help, but I also think it is fine to well over 2k, sans whizzer.

Likely you have seen and/or heard Tommy Horning's big speakers.  He does some interesting Lowther-based stuff that pretty well gets around some of the classic Lowther problems; however, he winds up with clearly audible cabinet colorations.

There are ALWAYS trade-offs.

Naturally, not everyone who hears the Reps thinks it is "better" than some other Lowthers, and naturally it is all system and situation dependent, and a matter of taste.

So what?

What is RIGHT with this driver?

Focus on/work with that, already.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005
Post #: 30
Post ID: 5062
Reply to: 5055
How to scare you and your box.
Yoshi,

What material do you have as damping material in the box and how close is it to the Lowther? These things are incredibly transparent to what is behind them. Some things to consider.

If the damping material is within 3 inches of the cone, it will actually mass load the cone, even if it is just fiber fill. If it is rock wool or real wool, it should only be on the sides of the box, or, alternatively as a tube of material standing up in the box from top to bottom. The diameter of the tube is critical here, as is the density of material (now tightly you compress it as you roll it up).

Another approach is to find the store in the Boston area that sells automotive carpet undelayment padding. This is a man made mat, made from jillions of crinkled plastic and natural fbers with some rag also throughout. The stuff is incredibly linear and efficient. You can usually replace a 100% full fiber fill with four smaller than full panel sized pads, 3/4" thick, glued in place. I use 3M 99 spray contact adhesive for that. This store can be located by calling some of the local custom auto interior installation companies in your area. They may be more willing to sell you some than the wholesale company.

It will be interesting to see what the Lowther's become after September.

Bud
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 31
Post ID: 5065
Reply to: 5054
To make that thing to sound better.
Yoshi,

I do not think you have to be so hard in your Lowther at this point, in fact if I m not mistaken, it was not a regular Lowther that rather some strange derivation from it. It did not sound right nether to me nor to you but I think the very first reason why it sound that way was not the limitation with the driver itself but the way in wish you use it. You cross it at 200Hz (I understand why) and you are severely overdriving it relative to other channels. I think before to blame the Lowthers it would worth to set it in appropriate operation conditions and then to see why happens. If you wish I might stop by with necessary tools, spend some time, make some measurements and adjustments and I am sure we will be able to make that thing to sound a lot of better. BTW, I could bring you some alternative drivers to try….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005
Post #: 32
Post ID: 5066
Reply to: 5065
Thanks for your thoughts
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on my situation.  The box is about 22" x 18" x 12", 3/4 thick plywood, internally braced with 2 by 4.  Pretty much no damping except 2" thick acoustic form covering the rear panel which has 3" slit, so it's kind of aperiodic.

Romy, I'd really appreciate if you could drop by with your gizmos.

Yoshi
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 33
Post ID: 5068
Reply to: 5066
Did you think of horn for REps-1 ?
Yoshi
It should not be a problem for you to borrow one of those plastic 150-200 Hz horns for your REPS .For restricted band as you're using it , it may sound interesting. I can imagine that other owners/users of Reps would be horryfied by the way you're using this driver .Personally I think it's a waste of money.Regards.w
08-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005
Post #: 34
Post ID: 5070
Reply to: 5068
A baby thrown out with bath water?
 Wojtek wrote:

It should not be a problem for you to borrow one of those plastic 150-200 Hz horns for your REPS .


I heard it a couple of times in a different settings several years ago.  Although I was interested in the application at that time, never thought of using it myself due to the space limitations, and I was more or less happy with what I had.

 Wojtek wrote:

I can imagine that other owners/users of Reps would be horryfied by the way you're using this driver .


I know!!  I also know how other owners use Lowther type drivers too though.  There's a historical (personal) context to how I came to what I have now.  Mine started out as Lamhorn at around year 2000.  I couldn't take the peak and ended up putting Reps in Medallion cabinet and replacing (adding) over 1000 with compression driver/horn-Ribbon tweeter combination using DSP.  I heard pretty much all commercially available Lowther systems at that time, but never was satisfied with the way they were dealing with the peak.  AER wasn't available yet then (if it was, my pass might have been slightly different).  I was happy with this combination while my music was pretty much all jazz.  Then everything begun to fell apart when I started listening to orchestral music.  There was also an encounter with an unknown specie's super vehicle (Romy's system).  I came to the current set up several months ago and have been working on it since then.

Paul, yes, I'm very familiar with Horning systems and, yes, the bass is quite discontinuous from the rest of the system.  "What is RIGHT with this driver?"  I'm afraid I threw out the baby with the bath water.

Yoshi
08-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 35
Post ID: 5071
Reply to: 5070
Actually, you might still have the best of it.
Yoshi, I knew Frank Reps WAY back, in LA.  I have talked with him in the last few years and know a little about his drivers, but I have never heard them.

It was my understanding that Frank used the AER cones, or he OEMs them from AER?

In any case, if the paper is as heavy as the Lowthers (eg, it is not too light) then you might use the thing in a small box from 200 up as high as 4k Hz, or at least you might use these numbers to kick off design/experimentation

If you just want to pursue the box idea, do try a much smaller box.  I'm afraid I speak from experience when I say the big box doesn't get it with Lowthers; basically it serves no good purpose, and it well and truly jacks up the sound it does not eat below 400 Hz.  I messed around with the smaller box when I was thinking 2-way, and it "works" much better because it better pitches the driver and also gives it a more realistic load.  You only need wimpy batting on alternate inside cabinet faces, and likely no port.

FYI, and germane to de-construction, one of the worst speakers I ever heard (if not THE worst) was a 2-way Vitavox "theater" speaker with the old Vitavox horn!  I mean, run for your lives!

Who would have guessed from that its current exhalted/unobtainable status?

And I can assure you that most of these venerated drivers still sound like crap!

Maybe your Reps will never match up with your other drivers as you have implemented them and the whole of them.

But I will be VERY surprised if you find dynamic drivers that better the Reps in every way.

BTW, I guess it's apropos that, according to Frank Reps, he sells his [then] $20k back-loaded, single driver horns mostly to well-heeled classical musicians and opera singers, eg, I've got the perfect vehicle for that 1705...

Best regards,
Paul S
08-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 36
Post ID: 5072
Reply to: 5071
I shouldn't have to say this...
OK, I forgot to  S-P-E-L-L  it out, so:

H-I-G-H  P-A-S-S  the fricking Lowther!!!

Don't let that sucker so much as imagine anything below 150, 2nd order!


Best,
Paul S
08-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 37
Post ID: 5134
Reply to: 3157
The alleged better sounding Lowther.

A visitor of this site reported an interning expense. He never was satisfied with Lowther and Lowther-like-centric inflations recently  he come across to a loudspeakers that according to him sound absolutely different and he was VERY pleased with the results.

He cams to that Lowther–based speakers at some kind of DIY show and was mesmerized with the extremely interesting sound that come from the speaker. I personally do not believe him and I think that he was certifiably “high” but it is what it is.

 

He is what the speakers were looks like, interning that the drawing and the 3D image are different. It looks like the design as a play around the idea of 4th Order Bandpass and horn loaded port. I did not hear those speakers, it was built by some DIY guy from unknown Western state.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005
Post #: 38
Post ID: 5138
Reply to: 5134
The end of my Lowther (Reps) saga
I am sorry to report a very unti-climax ending of my 8 years' saga with the Reps-1 driver.  It ended abruptly when Romy came and said "Let's go for the LE-8 (which I had it in my second system)".

I'll report my findings in a different thread later on.

Yoshi
08-27-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 39
Post ID: 5142
Reply to: 5138
It's all or nothing
Well, Yoshi, at least you're on your way to getting your speakers more of a piece.

I have for some time warned people against a mix-n-match approach with the DEBZs, based on my early experiments with them, and it is true enough to say, I think, that little Lowther does not play well with other children.  Also, I would welcome a way to get the best from my Lowthers at 102 dB efficiency, but I haven't figured that out yet, and nothing I've heard so far beckons from any quarter.  I agree, there are other drivers better suited to true HE applications.

Basically, the Lowther is the Achilles of drivers.

As for the double back horn, my guess is that it suffers the same sorts of cabinet colorations that all the other plywood backhorn Lowthers have, albeit it may after all better pitch the driver, which that driver can certainly use,  since it is otherwise quite up-tilted, to say the least.  And not to beat it into the ground, but IMO feeding that driver LF is the first Big Mistake people can make with it.

I hope you remember to use the best you get as a guide rather than making decisions based on bad electricity (like I keep doing...).

Or maybe, for that matter, we ought to go back to systems that hardly reflect bad electricity...

Throw in a Lava Lamp and I'll buy your Reps...

Best regards,
Paul S
10-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 40
Post ID: 5497
Reply to: 3153
A Lowther driver with an attached dildo.
Whatever is worth, for you the Lowther user.... You might find it informative….

http://audioprogress.free.fr/

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 41
Post ID: 5498
Reply to: 5497
That's what's so great about this website!
You see, even Romy, who openly detests the Lowther, is right there to steer Lowther lovers to cogent information he has turned up during his eternal foraging for useful hi-fi trivia.

Thanks, Romy!

The chart on the juice bottle looks VERY interesting!  Maybe a little Crisco on the bottle...

And never forget, Lowther Nation, the idea is to match total FR output to the highest point on the stock, on-axis chart!

Never give up a dB without a fight, and never entrust any part of the spectrum to Lesser Drivers!

I am presently working on a plywood phase plug that will match the tone of even the most musical backhorn cabinets.  It will be The Best In The World and its use will forever banish all thoughts...

Watch this space.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 42
Post ID: 7009
Reply to: 5142
Better late than never
Paul
I have to admit being wrong about "BUdification" (enabl doted Lowther) process . I don't have explanation besides lenghty "brake -in " time but I would not bet on that. It may be a show stopper for you but I also admit liking them better in front horn than with EQ in close to Basszilla (REtsel ) solution. I do high pass them at ~200 Hz (1st order ).
I will let you listen to them if you're still interested . I post it here because I've lost your email .
Regards, Wojtek
03-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 43
Post ID: 7010
Reply to: 7009
Anything specific?
Hey, Wojtek, nice to hear it worked out for you.  And what did Retsel think?

Can you and/or Retsel say what you did not like about the un-Bud-ed Lowthers in the same installation(s) and what the improvements are?

I have been uneasy about "mere" "improvements" of the sort we listen to and like for a while before it dawns on us that the new stuff has its own problems

I hope I have been clear that I am not so much skeptical as I am unconvinced of anything I have heard ABOUT the "scientific" process itself.

Results are another matter, of course, and of course I am still curious to try it out for myself.

As I read your post I wondered if the process might somehow allow me to do without the stupid notch filters, which in turn require a Zobel; a really annoying situation, for sure; downright barbaric!

Talk about wishful thinking!

Meanwhile, I am also thinking about my mostly-bad-these-days electricity.

The Lowthers telegraph the bad electrical effects so clearly and they fade so readily and so quickly under these conditions that I would be concerned about getting enough good electricity to do a meaningful comparison!

But maybe the Bud models are so much better that there's no comparison?

Best regards,
Paul S
03-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 44
Post ID: 7011
Reply to: 7010
It did not work out for me
but it may be worthwhile for you since you're using OB's .I only heard very approximate version on Zilla baffles (Retsel) and I'll take horns with their coloration . I just was wrong assessing ENabl process . You can hear it for yourself and decide it it's a major or mere improvement
I have impression that your "electricity problem" is a recent itch . Did you visit the Cat and became allergic ?? Regards , Wojtek
PS my email: klamfil@earthlink.net
03-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007
Post #: 45
Post ID: 7014
Reply to: 3153
The almost perfect Lowther diaphragm?
Hey Lowther boys!

Anybody who heard these: http://cgi.ebay.de/Lowther-Reconing-Stamm-Membran_W0QQitemZ200209061041QQihZ010QQcategoryZ23323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 46
Post ID: 7021
Reply to: 7014
Stamm
There has been a report at a German forum today, saying they are more detailed than Lowther, but also shouty.
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 47
Post ID: 7022
Reply to: 7021
The wrong tilt made wrong-er?
People never seem to run out of ideas to "improve" the stock Lowther, do they?  Ironically, the newer stock Lowthers feature a rolled-edge whizzer that is supposed to be there specifically to reduce "shout" compared to the older/outgoing model that had a straight-edged whizzer.  I had older "straight-edged" Lowthers, and the newer one are somewhat of an improvement in that area, IMO.  And now somebody's basically taken a step backwards by cutting off the rolled whizzer edge with pinking shears?  Did the originator have any special reasons for adopting this radical procedure or did he just do it and then claim the improvements?

Whatever anyone does, IMO it would be best to avoid exacerbating the already-problematic stock frequency "spikes" at 2.4k Hz and 8k Hz, and I certainly don't think the stock unit needs further up-tilting.  Sure, I like the "immediacy", too, but that spiked and up-tilted response does more than just bestow a sense of immediacy, and most of the rest of what it does is bad for music, to my ears.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007
Post #: 48
Post ID: 7024
Reply to: 7022
FS

You can get Lowthers reconed with FS (AER plagiate) diaphragms, more moderate, but no longer a Lowther.

03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005
Post #: 49
Post ID: 7025
Reply to: 7024
Another way to whack a Lowther
If you are brave and have a steady hand go here for a way to SOLVE Lowther problems. Without reconning. Ask Jon Ver Halen of Lowther America for his opinion too.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1248682#post1248682 post 345
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1256080#post1256080 post 373

Bud
09-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 50
Post ID: 8394
Reply to: 7025
Mutant Ninja BassZilla sighting
Looks like I'm back into this again, since, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Yoshi up and sent me his "neutered" Reps 1 drivers (he surgically removed the whizzers).

I started turning my existing Basszilla components and these guys together like a Rubicks Cube, and I got some ideas.

One "problem" of the BassZillas is insufficient headroom for large scale works with my ML2s.  And I just realized, for the first time, that the 15" Audax suffers a 3rd order low-pass network.  Hell, if I'd paid attention, that would have been changed to 2nd order a long time ago, to bring up the weight downstairs.

So, I was thinking I could just add the Reps to the same open baffle and gain over 3 dB, and then I remembered the notch filters and Zobel network that knock back the Lowthers' whizzers and it occurred to me that with the specific gain from the neutered Reps I could also lose the notch filters and Zobel networks and just bring up the LF with more efficient drivers.

This means that the neutered Reps would be on top, then the Audaphon JP2 naked ribbons, then the Lowther DX4s, with more efficient LF drivers in the bins below.  the Reps and Lowther would share a 2nd order 200 Hz high-pass.  The LF would have a 2nd order low-pass.  The JP2s would still use a 2nd order 10k Hz high-pass.

This should bump efficiency to better than 100 dB.

Then I thought that the baffle should be taller, and I might have to change the BR boxes...

Then I thought, maybe I should sell the BassZillas to a sane person before I ruin them, recoup some of my time to finance this latest madness.

My head is spinning!

A splash of cold water, please!

Paul S
Page 2 of 3 (63 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Do not pursue full-range without being ready...  ...observing the better and worst in upper bass......  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     8  82454  01-02-2005
  »  New  It is possible to eliminate some forms of gross side ba..  Re: EnABL Pattern and Ribbed Cones...  Audio Discussions  Forum     22  160982  07-08-2005
  »  New  Truth stretched out via Feastrex prism...  Goodbye Chris Witmer...  Audio Discussions  Forum     26  307607  01-21-2006
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  819184  10-19-2006
  »  New  EnABL: Just a note to awaken all of you peaceful sleepe..  I think "the Russian" is simply trying to con...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  118133  04-14-2007
  »  New  Maxonic drivers from Japan..  Large midwoofers...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  87795  06-14-2007
  »  New  A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..  A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  343841  02-27-2011
  »  New  Fostex tweeters, Lowther broadbanders on a limited rang..  How Much Best?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  24775  04-12-2011
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