You discerned a great deal in 2 secondsl Try harder and you may reach Romy's level of discernemnt where you no longer even have to hear the product to know what it sounds like, OL which speakers do you use? This Hi-End you must stay a little longer and introduce yourself!

To explain what I mean when I say "cold and sterile" it may help you when I tell you what other systems I perceived that way (assumed you have listened to them): One was the KEF system in the ground floor with Mark Levinson electronics (that was not only cold and sterile, but also had strong electronic colorations to my ears).  An other one was Linn.

Merlin wrote:

And you listened to these for two seconds too?

el`Ol wrote:

....and so I didn´t take a seat in these rooms, too.

On the subject, as I understood from your comments the Cessaro installation (whatever mode it was, those I would care only about Gamma) during the last German show was very badly performing. So what?  There are zillion reasons why systems at the trade show sounds like crap. Uselessly at the show conditions it is necessary to pay attention at the positive aspects of performance and juts discard the negative. Not the last factor is that the folks who run the rooms are ether do not care, or do not know, of just target the results for the consumption of morons….

I have no idea who he is but I thought that this might be interesting in context of this thread. It is a Hong Kong guy who replaces his looks like Avalon Eidolon with some kind of 3-way Cessaro. It looks as he uses 833 amp. I do not know a lot about that speaker and I did not read the blog. It looks like LF driver is some kind of HF extended low Fs driver. Then it is most likely the standard TAD MF horn-loaded and a plasma tweeter.

http://www.audioexotics.hk/forum.php?id=3463

http://www.audioexotics.hk/forum.php?cat=4&show=0&id=3350

It looks like Cessaro has developed some Hong Kong/China presents – that is good.

I am not a big fun of plasma tweeters but all together this type of configuration as on the picture above is all depends how good the woofer is made. It is very tricky to make this type of woofer to work all the way up to 500Hz and to give any more or less interesting bass. I do not know if the enclose is ported and I have no idea what driver the use. The box is good size thought…

The Eidolons were $20K loudspeakers, although I would NEVER drive them with a production 833 amp. Let presume that new Cessaro is with the same $20K range. I might be interesting for some folks. For extra $5.99 people can buy in Home Depot the spray-paint and to paint that moronicly-white horn on the dark-colored loudspeaker. The $5.99 is not a big investment…

Anyhow, I never heard the thing and have no idea how it sounds. Accapela do the same idea with not good result. I hope Cessaro do something better then.

Markus wrote:

There's no plasma tweeter on the Cessaro. The tweeter is the TAD ET-703. The HK owner has a gold-coloured horn for the tweeter, but there's no plasma driver. I'm pretty sure the horn on the Lansche plasma tweeter is a good bit larger than the horn on the Cessaro, too.

Thanks, Markus for clarification. I saw the gold horn and was under assumption the it was the German plasma tweeter that comes with a gold horn.

Markus wrote:

From discussions on other fora, it appears the bass enclosure is a back-loaded horn. I'll be interested to listen to this creation. Maybe this one will be the first BLH that I hear working properly; so far, I have some pretty deep reservations about the BLH principle.

If it is BLH enclosure then it would be less fun as I have already know how it should sound. I would love it to be some kind sealed box of “sophisticatedly ported” box (like Eidolon was) with very special bass driver. Then it might be very interesting to hear in context of the right installation. How this thin will sound above 500Hz we allergy kind of know… (if Cessaro does nothing with those TAD drivers)

coops wrote:

Romy Hi, Ralph installs every pair of speakers ,I know that it can take a week or more to install and optimise the larger systems. There are plans for amplifcation , he is  working closely with Mr Park of Allnic Audio. Mr Park has some interesting designs, which are 'properly' executed , http://www.allnicaudio.com/E/e_pdt_pna.html  I have one of his 1500 phono stages, it uses the LCR eq, valve regulated power supply it is very fine. I believe Ralph has very firm ideas on what constitutes a good sound, but is aware that every listener has his/her preferences. Yours sincerely,Keith.

Oliver,

It might be anything including electricity. Generally compression drivers are very much vulnerable to the electricity problems, muck more than convectional drivers. Let pretend that distortions in powers lines are responsible for worsening of sound (it would not be completely correct). They the amplitude of distortions of 5% would be a little above 5V and amplitude of .5% will be at sub 1V. Let presume that somehow those distortions (there the ground for instance) make to our loudspeakers at the level of .0000001% of signal. Now we have to take a compliance of the drivers under consideration. 

A regular direct radiation driver has relatively high cone mass, relatively high exertion, relatively high inertia and consequentially a relatively stiff suspension to control that mass. So, the direct radiation drivers have relatively high Minimum Current that those drivers need. The Minimum Current is the minimum amount of current that the driver need in order the defeat the stiffness of suspension. It means that if the driver is fed by less current then the Minimum Current then the changes in the current will be eaten by the driver suspension and the driver will be immune to comply and to convert those micro currants into the micro moves of the cone.

Then we have compression drivers. The cone mass is very little, the suspension is super stiff but not within the operational exertion. With exertion the suspension is virtually free and therefore compression drivers have way lower Minimum Current (ribbons have even lower). Now those .0000001% electrical distortion of signal that penetrated to speakers level are way more affective and impactful.

Cessaro if I am not mistake used TAD driver with beryllium diaphragm and neodymium mangers that push 2.4T in gap. With the tremendous force and ultra low mass of the beryllium cones the Minimum Current of the driver should be very-very low, so it is no surprise that Cessaro is very  subjected to the quality of electricity.

Anyhow, as I understand Cessaro showed at the show their small model. I do not particularly care about the sampler Cessaro – the model that I feel should be interesting is Gamma. The Cessaro Gamma is not without tribulations by design but it is the only Cessaro that in my view is worth efforts to listen.

coops wrote:

you should have said hello Oliver.

coops wrote:

Cessaro will be playing ….  the full Gamma system at next years Munich show….

Since I promoted the Cessaro Gamma to be a contender for the most promising commercial loudspeaker I would like to pass a few critical comments about the Cessaro flagman model - the Gamma. Any loudspeaker is a set of compromises where very frequently money is what we invest into minimizing the compromises. However, Cessaro Gamma, I feel suffers from the Lamm ML3’s syndrome – the syndrome what the cost of dealing with compromised defeat the topological purpose and rational of the design.

I have written before that in case of the Lamm ML3 might be OK amp but the price tag of ML3 makes is very inadequate solution. It is not the fact that it is expensive but rather the fact that the purpose/benefits per dollar ratio is way inflated. Lamm usually come up with price multiplying the self-cost by 10 time. So wit the list price of $136,000 the cost of ML3 is $13.6K. That is reasonable cost price, if you built the amp similar to ML3 you would most like end up with the same amount. However at the same place it proposed that any SET, as soon the investment to make it exceed $5.000 shell go DSET – you have incontestably better result and the purpose/benefits per investment become way more balanced and rational. Did I mention the better Sound per better invesment?

The Cessaro Gamma is in the VERY SAME boat. The list price for this speaker it looks like 150K Euros that make it $230K US. It is a lot of money but what is more important would be the answer: what set of residual compromises will people get for Cessaro Gamma’s ¼ million dollars? Well, liking what Cessaro I feel that Gamma is not a reasonable price/compromised solution and it still stay in the realm of $20K-$70K loudspeakers competing with Edgars++, Avantgardes Trio ++ and the similar.

Sure the Gamma’s lower MF horn should not be angled but I think it would be easy to fix. The Gamma’s upperbass horn is too short. I make a conclusion is that the upperbass use too large throat perhaps 7”-8”/ This loading would be great for $15K acoustic system but not for $230K. The 100Hz might be loaded lower; I feel 3” is a critical throat diameter for 100Hz Tractrix and 4” for exponential. Then the use of TAD driver throughout… I have to admit that I am not a huge fun of TAD drivers. They have a good bacterially clean sound but truly nothing really special. Do you see yourself shopping for more interesting vintage driver for your loudspeakers AFTER your spend million dollars for your acoustic system? Then, the amplification…. At the level of $230K any acoustic system should come with own amplification, add price if you wish but the thinking about acoustic system at this level of seriousness must include the amp-driver interface. In the end - the bass. The Gamma’s bass solution is great for $50K but not for $230K. The objectionable bass must include open bottom bass solution. For ¼ million dollars you need to have separated lower and mid bass. The Gamma’s midbass might be OK (I do not know how good they made their W-bins) but as soon the array of those W-bins will be asked to push octaves lover then the moth rate then sound will turn to shit. It is not the Cessaro’s bad implementation – it is the topology’s limitation. It might be a solution for Cessaro to divide 2 of this 4 LF section for horn load midbass and 2 for sealed lower bass but it looks like they all horn loaded. If so, then it is not the $230K-worth solution but a comprise that might be used in the acoustic systems of $10K-$50K level…Macondo has the similar comprise letting the lover bass section to care the midbass. However, Macondo is a loudspeaker of $25K, thought Macondo does honest $25K. If Macondo were ¼ million dollars acoustic system then it would be very different set of solutions. Cessaro Gamma does cost Gamma ¼ million but does not offers for this money any design substance.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I have to admit that I am not a huge fun of TAD drivers. They have a good bacterially clean sound but truly nothing really special. Rgs, Romy the Cat

Merlin wrote:

... I often note that you describe TAD compression drivers as being not to your taste. Could you tell us which of their range of drive units you have direct experience of and on what horns?

When I experimented with TADs I used 330Hz Tratrix. This subject was discussed somewhere below the following post….

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=6501

It is not that TADs are not to my taste. I am looking for the presents of specific things in the drivers and for an absence of other things. If you read my Macondo notes then you might understand where I am coming from:

http://www.romythecat.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx

It has to be mentioned that when I experimented with drivers, including the TAD, I did not “worked” with most of them and was trying to get from them sound “as is”. Although I do not feel that the things that I am looking in the drivers might be obtained by the driver modification but you never know….  The reason I mention it because somewhere Cessaro said that they used drivers that cost 5000 Euros – TADs cost retail 1/3 of it and 1/6 of it wholesale. So, Cessaro nigh invested into custom TAD drivers, I see no reasons why they should not do it is they are willing to tag this speakers for $230K. If Cessaro use custom TAD drivers then it might means absolutely anything as it not necessary be an assurance then they more advanced then the stock TADs.

What also I have to note in context of the “absence of other things”. I noticed belong myself that I have very bad repulsive memory for drivers’ signature. If I listen a driver and was able to sniff of a specific idiosyncrasy of it’s sound that I feel should not there then in my mind that magnifies that idiosyncrasy and this characteristic screams on me from each recordings. So in many instances I look in the drivers the lack of recognizable announce….

el`Ol wrote:

If everything in a recording / playback chain was clean in the sense of not polluting at all what comes out would be the original (not in terms of soundfield reconstruction, of course) and since reality isn´t clean the result won´t be clean either. If something in the chain takes something away that we need to believe it´s real, then the result will be clean. And if a following component manages to substitute it more or less, then the result will be no longer original, but the non-cleanness makes us believe. Romy, what kind of cleanness does the TAD have in your eyes?

Romy the Cat wrote:

It does act “clean” but it a bug or a fly to enter that “clean” environment then it dies as there is nothing in there to support life. The problem also is that some bugs do not fly well in the fumes of penicillin… Rgs, Romy the Cat