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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2926131  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2145609  07-26-2009
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 276
Post ID: 24780
Reply to: 24777
There are many options
 steverino wrote:
Why are you trying to get sub 20Hz in your room in order to play Bruckner's symphonies or anyone else's? The orchestral bass goes down to the mid 30s Hz limit nearly an octave above 20Hz. The only exception would be large pipe organ where the lowest note is 16Hz. Bruckner's crescendos are weighty not only because of the massed forces but also the relatively low frequency range of the trumpets he used (in F not C) and the way he orchestrated the brass and strings. The lower range instruments have more overtones in the audible range and therefore fill up the soundfield. The slow tempos also help increase coherent reverberations. Mahler and Richard Strauss use the brass and horns in more varied fashion and are more contrapuntal in the scoring. 

Steverino, I feel that this rational that “orchestral bass goes down to the mid 30s Hz” is completely faulty. Indeed, if you sit with a microphone and measure sound is reasonably large whole then you might not see a lot of frequency response at -3dB in sub 20Hz. Let leave aside the fact that most of the microphones and sound possessing devised do not run or even cannot be calibrated under 20Hz. The question I ask: if you measure 10-15Hz at let say -40dB then what reasoning you have that it has no impact to listening experience? The ULF are very different rans and has own way to impact listening awareness and there is absolutely no reasoning to look for frequency evenness at infra sound. The fact that infra bass has a huge benefit to listening experience is not a subject of argument for me, I am converted long time ago. The question that I ask myself now is what kind infra bass should it be? There are many options available….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 277
Post ID: 24781
Reply to: 24779
I want it...
 steverino wrote:
If the aim is not to hear the music accurately but instead to be overwhelmed by it then some kind of sensory overload is the goal.

Steverino, I think that your question contained the answers. If you get “overwhelmed” by sensory overload then it might not be a good thing, still it has absolutely nothing to do with what is being played. Live sound is played in concert halls that has reverberation time much longer then most of our listening rooms. The ULF response if large halls is quite high and to a great degree moderates many aspects of sound in halls including perception of tempos. If you bring a large olestra in a small room and play then you have understandably bad sound but with introduction of delay channels you can get fake longer reverberation time and to make the things feel good. The small room will help to build up higher ULF amplitude but it will not be natural ULF as it will be decaying differently then your auditable range. To fix the think you would need own fake ULF decay channels. It is understandable that to make all of it practically to work virtually impossible and I am bring it up purely for illustration point. 
 
If you do not believe or not familiar with in universal benefits of ULF presence during playback then make your experiments. Even in context of a regular string quartet it is well auditable. With proper training you should be able to detect ULF context with a recording of a flute, not to mention such as a spectacular ULF beneficiary as harpsichord or triangle. So not listen the sound itself but the space where the sound presented. Let me to give you an association: if any difference if you dive into your 15x40x8 pool vs you give into Atlantis ocean? 
 
Answering your question before: it has nothing to do with Bruckner, it was juts what I like to listen, what give me a lot of philosophical context and what I know how my inner me should response. Bruckner has in my view a “kink” - it hugely benefited from being plagued in a very large hall with very long reverberation time that might (or might not) has anything to do with ULF. The connection between ULF and reverberation time is a very complex subject, I can argue both sides and I have my believes but not convictions.    
Anyhow, I need my infra bass back to me room. I am not sure it is because I accustom to it or because it is a universal rule of a proper sound reproduction. I am not in business of writing a book about proper sound reproduction I am in business to satisfy myself. I do feel that I need to get more ULF into the room, would it be ULF heroin sir chemotherapy I do not know and frankly speaking do not care too much.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 278
Post ID: 24784
Reply to: 24779
Music vs, Sound Effects
Steve, it certainly gets down to what one listens to/for, as well as system capabilities.  My own current experiments have to do with "presentation", broadly speaking, of big works including Bruckner, Brahms and "similar" music that - to my ears - relies  heavily on "space and time" to come across, the sorts of cues that go missing in smaller venues and from "reproduced music", generally speaking.  One of the "ambiance" cues seems to be "ULF".  Savvy composers and conductors are able to put such "effects" to good use, and - speaking for myself - I miss these effects in "reproduced music".



Best regards,
Paul S
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 279
Post ID: 24785
Reply to: 24781
Clarity in the murk
Romy,

OK this is getting clearer I think. Any object that receives a force will vibrate. So even before the music starts but there are hundreds of people in the seats, their feet moving around are vibrating the floor slightly. Similarly the orchestra players just sitting in their seats and moving slightly are vibrating the stage. When the music starts the soundwaves in a well designed hall echo in accordance with the calibrated reflectivity of the hall. But larger heavier objects like the floor or ceiling or internal wall structures also vibrate but at very low frequencies. The difference is that the floor is vibrating much more to the contact pressure of tens of thousands of pounds of people moving in their seats than the very slight force of an airborne vibration from the music or people talking. So unlike the regular hall delay, these low frequency vibrations have a far higher proportion of non musical generation. Since their vibratory rate in the concert hall is so low and the Db level is also low  they have not been worried about. Similarly even the best recording studios can be vibrated by low frequency waves passing through the ground.

So OK when you are at a concert you can slightly sense some low frequency vibration specific to the venue.  For some reason your previous residence had a low frequency presence which pleased you more than your current room does. But this is no different than the changes that occur between concert venues. I think other than major construction, you have a tough problem if you have become sensitive to this low frequency venue vibration to the point that it bothers you if not to your taste.

Off hand I think you would have to set up a separate audio system with a CD containing low frequency sounds going to a subwoofer that can go very low and experiment with that.
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 280
Post ID: 24786
Reply to: 24785
The gentle exit
Well, in my formers listening room I had music ran by horns and I had two line array with 12 driver driven by SS aps to pump room with 20Hz low pass filter. Do not forgets that the filter was sitting on transition slope and it was 0dB at 20Hz and + 6dB at 10Hz. I was able to run my ULF channels with plus/minus good 6-10db and it did not impact sound too much. It changed the softness of sound, warmth of sound, comfort of sound, along with a few other things but it did not change bass itself. Well, it did change bass but it was not the bass itself but rather some it made the very bottom of bass to become softer and larger, making it to dissipate more natural in space of my room. I think I have OK bass now but as bass notes are over there is nothing left in the room. I feel that ULF gives to bass more gentle exit, making it more meaningful, like in real life.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 281
Post ID: 24787
Reply to: 24784
I understand
Paul,

Romy's follow on posts made it clear that he was not talking about low frequency musical notes but rather low frequency ambient noise specific to the venue. As noted above, a large proportion of this noise is extra musical and some of it is generated outside the concert hall from cars, construction or other sources of low frequency waves traveling through the ground. Yes you can sense the difference in how a large structure vibrates at low frequency compared to a small structure like the average home.

There are so many issues with reproduced sound that I have not worried about this aspect although I understand how it can impart a sense of place. But since it is extramusical it doesn't interest me that much. I do understand how it might subjectively be a pleasing adjunct to certain kinds of music. The normal reflectivity of a large concert hall and the impossibility of recreating it exactly at home bothers me more. Often I sit in the nearfield to try to mitigate that sensation, but it is omnipresent even with surround sound set ups.
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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 282
Post ID: 24788
Reply to: 24786
Low frequency dithering
Yes I can understand that in your current room the music seems clearer to you but you prefer some slight  additional low frequency reverberation from the room to mix with the musical decay of bass notes. But this gets into the whole question of how tight or clear we want the bass to sound. Different speakers are praised or dissed depending on the taste of the reviewer for exactly this issue. Again, you have the room you have so this could get tricky to adjust only bass note decay curves without affecting everything else noticeably.
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 283
Post ID: 24789
Reply to: 24787
Nearfield Listening vs. Performance Weight and "Space"
I also listen nearfield in order to embed myself in the sound/music, and it's not just a matter of SPL.  I think I get what Romy is saying, but I am saying I think we have to correct reproduced sound deficiencies at/below LF if we want a "realistic" sense of time/space/scale.  Drivers/speakers have rising response, X/Os and stacking drivers notwithstanding.  Also, artifacts/noise at higher frequencies adds disproportionately to the sound we get from hi-fi.  We can certainly "listen through" or "listen past" distortion and/or omissions.  Part of the hobby for me is milking content by hearing "more" from recorded music, including some war horses that are much-loved for good reason.


Paul S
10-03-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 284
Post ID: 25124
Reply to: 22459
Eventually!
Yesterday was a truly wonderfully day. I spent the whole day to play with playback, had a LOT of fun with it found some unexpectedly good solutions that made me very excited.  
 
The project with IB is over, the result is surprisingly good. There are some very minors things that I would like to work on but it is good enough to leave it as is. I use the horns stack + a dedicated midbass channel with Vitavox 15 driver as a direct radiator with IB sections at the bottom. I do not use the woofers tower at all. This is kind of strange configuration but it does produce a very interesting result in my view. The proper question would be how the overall sound I go got in this listening room with direct radiator midbass and Infinite Baffle might compare to the overall sound I go in my former listening room with Midbass horn and ULF section. I will be posting my commentary on this subject when I am ready to comment on it but as a preliminary view I might say that IB topology VERY positively surpassed me. 
 
Another very interesting move I made is to setup a pilot or TV playback. The projector TV playback integration with my main listening system is always a bitch. From one point of view we watch crappy movies, kids watch cartoons, Amy’s father watch his sports. I am not willing to run Milq and the rest of playback to make YouTube cartoons to sound better. From another hand we watch concerts and operas on the large screen and I would like the quality to be good. The on-demands integration did not work out well and always was a compromise, so I did an interesting move that pays off very well. 
 
Amy insisted to keep the woofer towers in the room, the woman likes how it looks. So, I decided to convert the woofer towers into the TV playback. I took a small mini monitor I build years back around the sensational Focal Utopia TN51 tweeter. It a small 2 way monitor with passive radiator that sound very respectably. I complimented it at the bottom with the whole Woofer Line Array crossed at 70Hz with first order and powered the whole thing from another Yamaha B-2. This threw a spectacular HUGE sound, exactly I needed for TV programs. The TN51 take a compression of sound like no tomorrow and I very like like hos the whole thing sound. 
 
So, I have an independent Audio and Video playbacks that happen to be in the same location and that do not talk to each other: very easy and elegant. The Video playback is a fully SS and cold running… the ultimate audio “pilot” system…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 12 of 12 (284 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 8 9 10 11 12
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2926131  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2145609  07-26-2009
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