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04-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 151
Post ID: 23180
Reply to: 23144
Is there any good digital designer?
it seems digital design is harder than analog design.

good Q&A Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/draft#Jwd0w77ZLMYORVJa.97
http://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p#HKAQvHqIkeqmVDhM.97

Charlie Hansen: "All of this can be boiled down to a simple phrase. “All of the problems with digital are analog problems.”

This is the primary reason that digital audio has taken so many decades to come close to the sound of analog.

The thing to remember is that digital systems are not immune to degradation due to noise. They tend to be much more highly resistant to noise than analog systems, but noise in any system will cause performance degradations."


Gordon Rankin: "But since digital audio is a streaming system, the timing of the bits is critical. If the bit changes to the correct state but at the wrong time, this is equivalent to changing to the wrong level at the correct time.

Another area to tackle is what is referred to as signal integrity. The signal leaves a transistor or IC chip and it has to make its way across the PC board, component-by-component so that the signal is degraded as little as possible. When you are talking about what makes one transport a “good sounding” one, again we are talking about treating so-called “digital” products as very high speed analog circuits. The clock frequencies in these units are typically between 10 and 100 MHz. When considering a square wave, a convenient rule of thumb is that the bandwidth must extend in both direction (higher and lower frequencies) by a factor of at least 10x to preserve the waveform fidelity.
So designing a high performance digital circuit means that you are essentially designing high performance analog circuits that have a bandwidth extending up to at least 100 MHz, and in some cases all the way to 1 GHz. The traditional rules of PCB layout connectors, signal routing, ground planes, solder joints, PCB materials, and even PCB coatings break down at these high frequencies."







www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
04-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 152
Post ID: 23181
Reply to: 23180
More moronic blah blah?
It seems that brainlessness knows no limits. Both Mr. Hansen and Mr. Rankin speak nonsense. Wasting time on text like this is like reading the brochures from extreme audio equipment. All the things that "audiophiles" expect someone to say, get said with absolutely no indication that they understand what they are talking about.

 Amir wrote:
it seems digital design is harder than analog design.

good Q&A Charles Hansen, Gordon Rankin:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/draft#Jwd0w77ZLMYORVJa.97
http://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p#HKAQvHqIkeqmVDhM.97

Charlie Hansen: "All of this can be boiled down to a simple phrase. “All of the problems with digital are analog problems.”

This is the primary reason that digital audio has taken so many decades to come close to the sound of analog.

The thing to remember is that digital systems are not immune to degradation due to noise. They tend to be much more highly resistant to noise than analog systems, but noise in any system will cause performance degradations."


Gordon Rankin: "But since digital audio is a streaming system, the timing of the bits is critical. If the bit changes to the correct state but at the wrong time, this is equivalent to changing to the wrong level at the correct time.

Another area to tackle is what is referred to as signal integrity. The signal leaves a transistor or IC chip and it has to make its way across the PC board, component-by-component so that the signal is degraded as little as possible. When you are talking about what makes one transport a “good sounding” one, again we are talking about treating so-called “digital” products as very high speed analog circuits. The clock frequencies in these units are typically between 10 and 100 MHz. When considering a square wave, a convenient rule of thumb is that the bandwidth must extend in both direction (higher and lower frequencies) by a factor of at least 10x to preserve the waveform fidelity.
So designing a high performance digital circuit means that you are essentially designing high performance analog circuits that have a bandwidth extending up to at least 100 MHz, and in some cases all the way to 1 GHz. The traditional rules of PCB layout connectors, signal routing, ground planes, solder joints, PCB materials, and even PCB coatings break down at these high frequencies."







Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 153
Post ID: 23184
Reply to: 23181
Haha :-)))
 rowuk wrote:
It seems that brainlessness knows no limits. Both Mr. Hansen and Mr. Rankin speak nonsense. Wasting time on text like this is like reading the brochures from extreme audio equipment. All the things that "audiophiles" expect someone to say, get said with absolutely no indication that they understand what they are talking about.



I 100% agree there is no useful information in the text but this Q&A is telling me  "digital design is not easy".

both Gordon and Charles are good designers in comparison by others. gordon rankin was the first man who converted PC to a good transport.

I know this forum is not a place to writing and expanding moronic ideas but i should say non of audiophiles in this forum do not know "whats the secret of transport design?".
which of you knows why CEC TL0-X sounds completely different to other transports?




www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
04-27-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 154
Post ID: 23197
Reply to: 23184
Looking for a good external Power Supply
I am looking for a good external power supply for ATX motherboard and Sotm pci to usb card.
i need 12v, 3.3v , 5v, -12v , 9v


sometimes i think if i use CEC TL0-X power supply it may help but i did not measured it's output voltage.
CEC TL0-X has 4 transformer with 7-pin dc output.

some battery power supply are in the market like acoustic revive and red wine audio but i think battery is a little dead at lower frequency harmonics.
very few companies sell external power supply in the market.

is there any idea?



www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
04-27-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 155
Post ID: 23198
Reply to: 23197
Simple and cheap
hi Amir
Ive been experimenting for long with this till i discovered it can be so easy and cheap. 
Just get a isolation transformator and an HF blocker. In this order respectively, for the pc only. Available for small money from industrial purpose, 2nd hand. 
Got plenty of DC and scam in my industry city as well as routers and chinese switching supplies at home. Running the worst and the most sensitive devices isolated like above, its 100% clean (in relevant dimensions). 
CheersJosh 
04-27-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 156
Post ID: 23199
Reply to: 23198
Purepower 3000 is on the way
 martinshorn wrote:
hi Amir
Ive been experimenting for long with this till i discovered it can be so easy and cheap. 
Just get a isolation transformator and an HF blocker. In this order respectively, for the pc only. Available for small money from industrial purpose, 2nd hand. 
Got plenty of DC and scam in my industry city as well as routers and chinese switching supplies at home. Running the worst and the most sensitive devices isolated like above, its 100% clean (in relevant dimensions). 
CheersJosh 


Armen my friend in iran is importing PurePower 3000. i will use PP3000 and i guess it will sound good.
about isolation i should test some stuff but now my problem is finding a good PSU for my PC .



www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
04-27-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 157
Post ID: 23200
Reply to: 23199
Isolation is everything
There is no problem if you isolate it. Theyre all crap so take any, isolate the AC, go out via Toslink or Usb transformator to cut it off galvanic. 
04-10-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 158
Post ID: 24797
Reply to: 23200
PC Audio
I spend my time/effort/money to get a good sound from computer or MacBook.my trial and error proved me that I could not attack CEC TL0-X by Computer Audio.I also lost my money 4500$ in ordering external PSU to Paul Hynes. Paul is not trusted and do not pay him if you need external psu.
check computer audio forums like "computeraudiophile" and you will find every day news to get better sound but I think it is hype.the money you pay for PC Audio (motherboard/external clock/pcie to usb cards/cables/external psu/shield/chassis/ram/cpu/ground/network/software/dual setup/optimise codes/usb purifier/network streamer) maybe even more than a good transport.
after those trial and errors you will find CEC TL0-X sounds better than PC Audio at lower price :-))
I also paid for CAD GC3 Ground Control. GC3 is designed by Computer audio design from UK. GC3 claims to remove noise of ground line but in my system Audio Note/2way Living Voice the GC3 was not good in my system. it kills micro dynamics and I do not know why it's sound is bad.
CAD_GC3-GC1.jpg
I think Computer Audio will bother you if you think you can beat CEC TL0-X. 
my orders:macbook pro 1500$USB Cable 2000$Roon software 500$audirvana 140$Paul PSU 4500$GC3 Ground 3200$motherboard cpu ram 1500$berkeley alpha usb 2000$chassis 300$external psu 1500$optimise code and play 200$shipments 1000$




www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
05-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Max Shatsky
Posts 19
Joined on 01-03-2005

Post #: 159
Post ID: 24828
Reply to: 24797
Toslink might help
Amir,
You can try to connect Toslink cable to your MacBook headphone jack, if your model supports this. In my case, it made a huge difference vs the USB interface. And then you can compare it to Toslink output from your CEC. Unfortunately, different software players sound different. 
Max.
05-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 160
Post ID: 24829
Reply to: 24828
I dont think about it
 Max Shatsky wrote:
Amir,
You can try to connect Toslink cable to your MacBook headphone jack, if your model supports this. In my case, it made a huge difference vs the USB interface. And then you can compare it to Toslink output from your CEC. Unfortunately, different software players sound different. 
Max.

Max I have paid for all types of pc audio like dual PC setup , Single PC setup, linux on alix boards, old macbook , new macbook , optical , usb ,high speed cpu , low power cpu , jplay, windows , mac ,roon , async adaptive , all you find in computer audio have been tested.You can get decent sound from computer even better than many transports but it is impossible to attack CEC TL0-X.If you would like to have best sound i recommend you Do not waste your money and go for CEC TL0-X.CEC TL0-X is also very different to other transports and you get so much low level dynamics information from it .Don’t forget your system should be very transparent and linear bass response to compare CEC to your pc audio.
If your system is not so transparent then you could not get full potential of CEC.We could not stop computer audio and CDs will be replaced By files but i will not pay more on pc audio.


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
06-07-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 161
Post ID: 24922
Reply to: 24829
AES67
Hi.

Anyone in here have experience with AES67 (aka RAVENNA) interfaces? This kind of networked interface are getting a lot of traction on the pro-market.

I am particulary interested on the Merging HAPI.


Thanks!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 164
Post ID: 25094
Reply to: 25024
Dbpoweramp Ripping vary by different reading passes
my experience in ripping audio CD with dbpoweramp shows even in ultra Secure mode we get different result with different number of passes.



the result in 3 different passes :the CD was in good condition but it has little scratch .
=========================================================================================










dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:06 10:02:07
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 2,  Max Passes: 4,  Finish After Clean Passes: 2Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 3
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 12:01. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 22:32. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: 31855818
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 23:08. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: 21C90611
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 18:41. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2, Re-Rip 3 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000). Insecure  (c2 dropped 2) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013). Insecure  (c2 dropped 3) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222806 (00:10:27.520) matched 10 / 11
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 30:55. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/05  - Track 5.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 2]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 4 Secure, 1 Inaccurate

=========================================================================================










dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 09:44:44
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 3,  Max Passes: 5,  Finish After Clean Passes: 3Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 3
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------



dBpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 09:46:35
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 3,  Max Passes: 5,  Finish After Clean Passes: 3Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 4
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 5:21. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 6:57. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: 31855818
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 7:02. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3]  CRC32: 21C90611
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 6:20. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3, Re-Rip 8 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 185719 (00:02:13.026) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 214884 (00:08:41.893). Insecure  (c2 dropped 8) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 221942 (00:10:16.000) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 2)    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000). Insecure  (c2 dropped 4) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013). Insecure  (c2 dropped 7) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 222581 (00:10:24.520) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 222713 (00:10:26.280). Insecure  (c2 dropped 1) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 223484 (00:10:36.560). Insecure  (c2 dropped 9) [c2 best match]
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 10:08. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD/05  - Track 5.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 3, Re-Rip 4 Frames]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.    Re-rip Frame: 224709 (00:00:15.493). Insecure  (c2 dropped 2) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 224710 (00:00:15.506). Insecure  (c2 dropped 3) [c2 best match]    Re-rip Frame: 225729 (00:00:29.093) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 225730 (00:00:29.106) matched 10 / 11
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 3 Secure, 2 Inaccurate

=========================================================================================










Bpoweramp  Digital Audio Extraction Log from 2018-09:08 10:35:32
Drive & Settings----------------
Ripping with drive 'disk3   [HL-DT-ST - DVDRW  GX50N]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: YesAccurateRip: Off,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: NoPass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: MaxUltra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 8,  Max Passes: 10,  Finish After Clean Passes: 8Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 15
Encoder: AIFF 
Extraction Log--------------
Track 1:  Ripped LBA 0 to 48997 (10:53) in 11:54. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/01  - Track 1.aiff  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8]  CRC32: F808C94F
Track 2:  Ripped LBA 48997 to 112629 (14:08) in 15:45. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/02  - Track 2.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 1 Frames]  CRC32: 31855818    Re-rip Frame: 84665 (00:07:55.573) matched 10 / 11
Track 3:  Ripped LBA 112629 to 175742 (14:01) in 54:43. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/03  - Track 3.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 2 Frames]  CRC32: 21C90611    Re-rip Frame: 117101 (00:00:59.626) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 122074 (00:02:05.933) matched 10 / 11
Track 4:  Ripped LBA 175742 to 223547 (10:37) in 54:59. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/04  - Track 4.aiff  Insecure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 5 Frames]  CRC32: 1E1D012A    Re-rip Frame: 214884 (00:08:41.893) matched 10 / 12  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 222167 (00:10:19.000) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 3)    Re-rip Frame: 222168 (00:10:19.013) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 222713 (00:10:26.280) matched 10 / 11  (c2 dropped 1)    Re-rip Frame: 223484 (00:10:36.560). Insecure  (c2 dropped 9) [c2 best match]
Track 5:  Ripped LBA 223547 to 308527 (18:53) in 1:35:04. Filename: /Drive D Windows/AIFF/AIFF 16-44 Rip/Homayoun Khorram 1 Taknavazi Violon Navaye Homayoun OLD Bad Ripped/05  - Track 5.aiff  Secure (Warning)  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 8, Re-Rip 2 Frames]  CRC32: FA47C164  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.  ** Drive is unable to read into lead out, uncheck over-read option.    Re-rip Frame: 226203 (00:00:35.413) matched 10 / 11    Re-rip Frame: 242576 (00:04:13.720) matched 10 / 11
--------------
5 Tracks Ripped: 1 Secure, 3 Secure (Warning), 1 Inaccurate



www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 165
Post ID: 25095
Reply to: 25094
Accuracy
my experience in ripping by dbpoweramp and apple super drive:
if the disc be 100% OK (100% healthy production in press factory ) with no scratch then the ripped data will not vary by more "reading passes" or "slower reading".
It seems healthy disc could be ripped OK .
if production quality of disc in factory be bad or you find some scratches on the disk then the ripping data vary by reading speed or by number of reading passes.


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dedobot
Posts 8
Joined on 08-25-2018

Post #: 166
Post ID: 25097
Reply to: 25095
EAC, CD/DVD drive
Try EAC, it have more detailed setting/logs.Also the CD/DVD drive is very important - I had a chance to test/choose from 20+ drives from my work. Completely different results . Picked one with less errors on scratched discs .
05-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 167
Post ID: 26779
Reply to: 25097
Computer audio does not sound good
it seems the computer audio problem is not bit errors and even correct bit-perfect digital data (from computer) does not give us good sound.
the wadax new server (computer) does not use digital processing and it only change the digital wave shape. changing the wave shape change the sound.


The Wadax Reference Server I review in this  issue raises some fascinating questions about the fundamental nature of digital audio. Unique for a server, the Wadax has three front-panel controls that allow the user to adjust the amplitude and shape of the digital waveform that represents the music. These controls don’t change the digital ones and zeros, but rather introduce an analog-like variability to the digital bitstream—a radical concept.

Digital audio was supposed to work perfectly or not at all; removing analog-like variability was its raison d’être. Yet early on in digital audio it became apparent that identical bitstreams could sound different if the digital samples were put back together with even the most miniscule timing errors—jitter. Although 30 years later this mechanism is fully understood, it came as a shock to a mindset that viewed digital-audio data as just another form of digital information that could be transmitted or copied endlessly without error. However, unlike other forms of digitally represented data, the end of a digital-audio system is an analog signal that is analyzed by our exquisitely sensitive hearing mechanism. 

Yet for all we’ve learned about digital audio, there’s much that remains a mystery. One such mystery is precisely how adjusting the waveshape’s steepness with the Wadax server’s “Speed” control changes the music’s sense of pace and rhythm. 

The analog-like variability of digital signals has long fascinated me. When I was working in a CD mastering lab in the late 1980s, one of my jobs was investigating technical problems with mastertapes that could lead to issues with replicated discs. One day I learned that a customer, a small, independent music label, was unhappy with the sound of the replicated discs we had made. I spoke with someone in the band, who described how the replicated disc sounded different from the mastertape. This was the first time a customer had complained about the sound quality of a replicated disc.

The sonic differences he described could not be the result of data errors on the disc. For starters, our QC department would have rejected any discs that had uncorrectable errors. CD error correction is extremely robust; it can completely and perfectly correct—not conceal through interpolation—up to 4000 consecutive missing or corrupted bits. Second, such errors would show up as audible glitches, not as, for example, a reduction in soundstage dimensionality.

The first thing I did was compare the data on the customer’s ¾” U-Matic CD mastertape with the data on the replicated disc, using a CD-ROM pre-mastering system. As expected, the data on the mastertape and the data on the replicated CD were identical.  

To the engineers I worked with, that was the end of the story. “Bits is bits,” they said, dismissing the musician’s claims. Because the replicated discs contained data identical to the mastertape, they reasoned, our company had done its job, and any sonic differences were figments of someone’s imagination. These guys were brilliant engineers. They had designed and built, from scratch, the two custom CD mastering machines in our factory—no mean feat. Yet, the audiophile in me was compelled to explore the question, so I cut a new glass master from the customer’s CD mastertape on our second, newly designed mastering machine and had discs replicated. This would enable me to listen to the two discs through the same CD player, something I couldn’t do with the CD mastertape and the replicated disc (the mastertape could be decoded only by a Sony PCM-1630 processor). After verifying that the second disc contained the same data as the mastertape and the first disc, I listened to both discs on my home system. The two discs did, indeed, sound different—the second disc sounded smoother and more dimensional. Without telling the customer what I heard (or about the different mastering machine), he reported that the second disc sounded like what he created in the studio. 

Now, I was really curious. I rented an analyzer that would measure the time periods of the pit and land structures on the CD. The analyzer graphically plotted the precise period of each of the nine discrete pit and land lengths that encode information. The first disc that sounded inferior had a much wider frequency distribution of the signals generated by the pits. The second, better-sounding disc, had a much narrower frequency distribution, indicating that the pit and land lengths were more precise. Moreover, looking at the raw signal from the CD player’s photodetector revealed that the pit-to-land and land-to-pit transitions were cleaner and sharper on the second disc. In essence, jitter was embedded in the disc itself in the physical pit and land structures. It wasn’t surprising that the second CD mastering machine produced less timing variation; its turntable was controlled by a vastly more sophisticated and precise rotational-servo system.

Although this exercise was illuminating, it still didn’t answer the question of how those timing variations on the disc made their way through an enormous amount of complex signal processing (the error-correction decoding alone is mind-boggling) to somehow affect the CD player’s analog output signal. 

That question remains unanswered to this day. Although our knowledge of digital audio has advanced enormously in the last 35 years, there’s still much to be discovered. The conundrum presented by the Wadax Reference Server is simply the latest example. It shows us the limits of our understanding by raising more questions than it answers.


Robert Harley




www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
05-23-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 168
Post ID: 26780
Reply to: 26779
"Correcting" Audio Problems
Interesting that problems Harley isolated in this case (pits and lands; turntable) were physical/mechanical, utimately "analog", in that sense. I'm glad someone has stayed after it, but not sure how to put this revelation to work to get better Music in my home. Meanwhile, recordists all up and down the audio chain are using a plethora of digital methods to process the sound, including mixing and shaping it to taste, at every stage, up to and including playback. It would be nice if there was some sort of digital umami that could rescue dead or freakish digital renderings for home playback. I've not heard it yet, myself, nor have I heard anything that unequivocally points to more expensive digital playback equipment fairing consistently better than my own, modestly priced transport and DAC. Not to say this is Great, just not worse than else I've heard. I hope to be paying attention if streaming digital I can use at home ever becomes available, including - of course - a signficant Music library that I have access to at home.


Paul S
05-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 169
Post ID: 26781
Reply to: 26780
Digital recording/mixing/mastering
 Paul S wrote:
Interesting that problems Harley isolated in this case (pits and lands; turntable) were physical/mechanical, utimately "analog", in that sense. I'm glad someone has stayed after it, but not sure how to put this revelation to work to get better Music in my home. Meanwhile, recordists all up and down the audio chain are using a plethora of digital methods to process the sound, including mixing and shaping it to taste, at every stage, up to and including playback. It would be nice if there was some sort of digital umami that could rescue dead or freakish digital renderings for home playback. I've not heard it yet, myself, nor have I heard anything that unequivocally points to more expensive digital playback equipment fairing consistently better than my own, modestly priced transport and DAC. Not to say this is Great, just not worse than else I've heard. I hope to be paying attention if streaming digital I can use at home ever becomes available, including - of course - a signficant Music library that I have access to at home.


Paul S

Paul These articles are more about market advertise and The only thing in harley article was interesting to me was effect of the shape of digital square wave on sound , i remember CEC tl0 square wave was different to other transports . Believe it or not but i see Many audiophiles in the world think the sound of all transports are equal and computer audio is the best way to go. I do not say expensive server/dac will solve the problem.If better transport/server/dac could improve the sound by x% then good AAD records (file/cd) will improve the sound by 10x% .It means the main problem is the quality of digital (file/CD) records and there is no escape from it.Now most recording studios use powerful softwares and most records are DDD. 





www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
05-24-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 26782
Reply to: 26781
At What Point Does Corruption Occur?
I admit, if Harley was selling something, I was not reading for that, and I missed it. If the question is how to shape digital square waves, we are still left to solve that problem, as any other, with an identifiable and repeatable solution. I am all ready to jump on digital solutions I can replicate, as long as there is Music I want to hear waiting there for that solution. Of course digital files do not all sound the same through a given playback, but what are we supposed to do with that, apart from stick to the solutions that we prefer? Hats off to anyone who can actually, consistently make more satisfying Music through propritary means, whether digital or analog. I will say again, I have no interest in most of the music that is played by reps to demonstrate so-called audio "solutions".


Best regards,
Paul S
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