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09-12-2015

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	76
Post ID:	21974
Reply to:	21971

Drivers and horns

Hi Murataltuev,
I have two horn based systems but the system that is similar to yours or Romy's is the one I am currently building. The drivers and horns are as follows.

38hz - 160hz - Tad 1601b - Bass Array (4)

160hz - 600hz - Supravox 285-2000 hornfabrik edition - 110hz round tractrix horn

600hz - 4800hz - Radian 850pb - 200hz round tractrix horn

4800 - 12khz - Radian 475be-pb - 1000hz round JMLC horn

12khz - 45khz - Fostex t500amkII

Basically this is the current system I am building but the crossover points may change. I am in the process of deciding the crossover points via digital active crossover. When I am satisfied, I will be building the crossover (with a help of very experienced crossover designer)

09-12-2015

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mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #:	77
Post ID:	21976
Reply to:	21974

1601b implementation

Hi Kodomo-
You have made an ambitious undertaking. Congratulations to a brave decision.
Can you please elaborate a little on your TAD implementation. I have used one on each side ,
in 3 cuft sealed cabinets, first order from 60 to 150Hz, blending gently into a reversed
JBL 2482 mounted on an Oris 150 with a 4" throat that extension John Sheerin kindly made for me.
These are aligned in the vertical plane. Biamping has of course been necessary.
What are your layout plans? Will you have two sealed towers with 4 TAD's in each?
Do you have any concerns about the lateral misalignments at these frequencies?
I'm also curious on your thoughts behind the decision to use Supravox 285's over 215's.
Best regards,
Mats

09-13-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	78
Post ID:	21977
Reply to:	21974

20% done

For now I'm quite sure about one very important channel - 1200Hz+. JBL2453 in 550Hz LeClech horn works perfectly for me! For the lower channel 500-1200Hz I've tried the same driver JBL2453 in 350Hz Tractrix and result is not bad, but not perfect. So, my challenge now is to find right configuration for this channel. During next few weeks I plan following experiments: 1. JBL2450 and JBL2451 in the same 350Hz Tractrix to see if they are better than 2453 in this range. 2. JBL2490 in JBL's own 1x1m mouth horn. 3. 12" Supravox 285-2000 EXC in 200Hz LeCleach horn with 6" throat (I've ordered http://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-200/) 4. I'm going to 3D-print adapter 6" to 3" and try JBL 2490 in the same horn. 5. Print 3" to 2" adapter and try JBL2450 and JBL2451/52 with another 2" to 1.5" adapter. If not happy after all this, then I need help to guide me futher Smile

09-13-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	79
Post ID:	21978
Reply to:	21977

42Hz upper bass horn

Quite ugly, ah ? Smile

09-13-2015

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	80
Post ID:	21979
Reply to:	21978

Plastic suspension

I tend to like drivers with plastic suspension. Radian makes retrofit diaphragms for JBL with plastic suspension, maybe they will help you achieve the tone you are looking for.
Extensions are easy to machine out of aluminum, even wood and they can change the tone of your driver drastically.

09-14-2015

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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015

Post #:	81
Post ID:	21980
Reply to:	21976

Tad 1601b

Hi Mats,

I am not using 4 on each side. I will be using two on each side. Until now I always liked sealed enclosures. However Tad drivers are more suited to ported configurations. If you do not push them to go too low and have a reasonable fs point, the port won't be audible. This is what has been told to em by a very experienced speaker designer. I am giving that a try. I will have 4 cabs with ports, each having an 1601b. They will be around 180liters each and will have an fs about 38hz.

Supravox 285 is more suited for my horns as far as I can see from the simulations. I also did find a special edition of this driver made by Hornfabrik. They use it on their top end horn systems upperbass horn, which is roughly the same with mine. I have throat compression. You can find the simulations and how I implemented the throat compression in my own topic. (http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=21722)

09-14-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	82
Post ID:	21983
Reply to:	21979

Other drivers: TAD or Vitavox

Jorge wrote:
I tend to like drivers with plastic suspension. Radian makes retrofit diaphragms for JBL with plastic suspension, maybe they will help you achieve the tone you are looking for.
Extensions are easy to machine out of aluminum, even wood and they can change the tone of your driver drastically.

I think, that after experimenting with drivers as is, I can go for upgrades of best of them.May be I need to try TAD4003. I had TAD2001 and didn't like it in compare with JBLs, but 4003 is another story.Vitavox S2 has 3" diaphragm and I can't believe that it can work well at 500Hz. I'm still not sure about 4" (JBL24XX, TAD400X) also.That is why I'm going to try 12" Supravox instead of compression drivers at 400-1200 range.May be later when I feel that I need something better than JBL2453, I'll give a try to Vitavox S2 in 1000Hz+ range.

09-14-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	83
Post ID:	21988
Reply to:	21965

500-1200Hz range

Murataltuev wrote:
So, driver for 1200hz down is under consideration.I'm going to try 2453, 2451, 2490 and Supravox 12" for this range.I've ordered 200hz LeCleach from AutoTech with 6" throat to try 12" Supravox for the 300-1200hz range.And compare with JBL 2490 in its own JBL horn.I'll share my impressions soon...

Well, it is for sure possible to order zillion drivers and horns and try for 500-1200Hz range, or that I call Fundamental Channel. As the person who did it I would like to pass some recommendations. Do not do anything with what I call Fundamental Channel until you do not have properly setup and calibrated your upperbass and MF. With your upperbass and MF you should be able to get perfectly agreeable sound and the Fundamentals shall juts add some icing on the case making the sound slightly richer, slower and kind of “unpleasantly midrangy”. The Fundamentals is in a way a mad that juts fill the gaps and make the whole sound presentation a bit more monumental and solid. The Fundamentals should not be showing off and in way shall sound quite ugly in isolation. So, it is not that you shall find the “best Fundamental” but rather you need to find the best complement to your current upperbass and MF.

I would not go for a recommendation of a driver but whoever driver you chose I would very much encourage you to idle it as much as you can. You for sure will have partials with any amp you use to drive it a lot of excessive power, so burn any excessive power in the loading and let the output tube to run as relax and possible, practically do not let it to “see” the load. As you will go deeper and more aggressive into it the driver’s cone will be sort of “transients ringing” for a full range but in context of 500-1200Hz range it will be sonically reasonable, at least at my view. Try it and you might discover that you might eventually prefer not “belter driver” but rather the driver that has more ringing. Read my thread about the “Resonating Oops” witch is context of a single lower MF octave might be very beneficial. Get yourself as good recording of let say Dvorak 8 or 9 and idle the Fundamentals until your ears experience their little intellectual orgasm.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-14-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	84
Post ID:	21993
Reply to:	21988

Upper bass or lower mids ?

I understand your recommendation and agree. I need to have upper bass and MF and than see how to merge fundamental channel in between.So, I better postpone experiments with compression drivers and only compare 12" Supravox in two horns: 42Hz 2m long and 200Hz LeCleac'h.
Why I still think that experiments with 200Hz LeCleac'h is interesting, because HornResp model shows somethings from 120Hz like it is 110Hz Tractrix.Kodomo posted here his curve and this is what I have:

I don't trust much to HornResp, I prefer to model with another much more advanced software, but for now I have only this and it is very very promising.If it works well for me, than I'll need only one channel down from 100hz and no need for 42Hz horn.I hope to finally get my 42Hz end of this week and 200Hz LeCleach coming before the end of this month.

10-06-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	85
Post ID:	22025
Reply to:	21993

RAAL Lazy Ribbon 9

I've just got it and successfully integrated to system:

Blue - original SPL
Green - with single capacitor
Red - together with JBL 2453

They match perfectly and sound amazing. Finally violins are very real. I'm completely satisfied with the result!

10-07-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	86
Post ID:	22026
Reply to:	22025

Try the 3rd order.

You do not have a single capacitor on that ribbon as your cap acts as a second order filter along with the ribbon built in transformer. You might want to push the ribbon further then 12per octave that you have. I might not do it if you are “satisfied with the result” but I think that for this ribbon there is more with a shaper filter. Do not forget to time align it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-07-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	87
Post ID:	22027
Reply to:	22026

Merge or separate ?

I think I like what it adds to 8-14k range also, so If I use higher order may be I'll miss it...but I'll try if you suggest.
I would like to ask a question regarding 400-1200 range (fundamental channel). You are using Vitavox S2 for this range. Is it really can go so low with 3" diaphragm ? I'm experimenting with JBL2490 and it can go down to 200, but I'm not very happy with tone...Supravox sounds better in this range, but I'm missing speed and dynamic in compare with JBL2490. Will you suggest to go for new Vitavox S2 ? Or may be LM clone of WE555 ?

10-08-2015

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mats
Chicago
Posts 85
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #:	88
Post ID:	22037
Reply to:	22027

Titanium

My humble guess is that the titanium diaphragm won't ever give you the feeling you seek.
JBL 2482 with its phenolic diaphragm may not be the quickest or most detailed,
but has a truly wonderful tone that I never tire of.

10-09-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	89
Post ID:	22039
Reply to:	22037

Speed and details are 1st priority

mats wrote:
My humble guess is that the titanium diaphragm won't ever give you the feeling you seek.
JBL 2482 with its phenolic diaphragm may not be the quickest or most detailed,
but has a truly wonderful tone that I never tire of.

I had K-55 with phenolic diaphragm and used to like it. But speed and details are the things to make sound more real.I don't have any concept regarding materal to use, I'm just listening and choosing the best driver for my taste.And also I believe in progress, so having different JBLs I end up with latest one: 2453.
BTW, I was impressed with the fact, that JBL also has 5 way concept:
http://www.jblpro.com/press/Sept11/JBL_Marquis.jpg
And they use CMCD for mid-range together with 2453, so I've just ordered one to try in 270Hz LeCleach and compare with 8" Supravox which is now my favorite!

10-09-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	90
Post ID:	22040
Reply to:	22039

4 way ?

I think, I have an opportunity with the range of drivers I have to end up with 4 channels, because 15" Supravox can go very low and merge with 8" Supravox quite effectively. Here is model in Leap:

10-09-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	91
Post ID:	22041
Reply to:	22040

First trial

Well, I'm still waiting for 2m 40Hz horn, 200Hz and 270Hz LeCleach. But can't wait to try something!But I'm very eager to experiment with drivers I have, so this is what I got today!If someone has expirience in judging recorded sound, welcome to comment Smile

https://youtu.be/pDFnsJb_mM8

15" Supravox is in big 1x1m JBL horn.
8" Supravox is in custom made 1m long horn.
JBL2453 in 550Hz LeCleach.
RAAL is under it Smile

And TappedHorn is in corner.

10-11-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	92
Post ID:	22052
Reply to:	22041

3-way under 1khz

Modelling for 3 way under 1khz is done!

10-11-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	93
Post ID:	22053
Reply to:	22052

42Hz horn arriving tomorrow!

Finally...it is almost done.

10-14-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	94
Post ID:	22073
Reply to:	22053

42Hz horn arrived

Impressive sound! Impressive measured response:

10-14-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	95
Post ID:	22074
Reply to:	22073

Intermediate summary

So, with this horn I got the sound I was dreaming for!
Currently system consists of 4 channels:
1. RAAL Lazy Ribbon (14k+)
2. JBL 2453 in 550Hz LeCleach (1200 - 14k)
3. JBL 2490 in first part of own JBL horn (300-1200)
4. 12" Supravox in 42Hz 2m long horn (70-300Hz)

All 4 channels are around 110db connected to a single SET amp 18Watt based on GM-70 tube.

Not expected for me, that I feel enough bass...I don't feel that I need another channel down to 20Hz. All instruments sounds very real without any lack of bass. Looks like 50Hz+ range is so colorfull, that 50Hz- become not so important!I'm very impressed with the result and really hapy to be where I'm now with my system!

I'm still waiting for 200Hz LeCleach and 270LeCleach, so I'll try them with JBL2490.The only alternative to JBL2490 I can see is WE555 clone from Line Magnetics and I already ordered it.It is only 1" throat, but can go down to 200Hz, so comparision will be interesting.Unfortunately, I'm failed to order Vitavox S2 for now...Mike can't send it to private address in Moscow...may be it is VAT issue between EU and Russia - I don't know. But before I look for other ways to get it, I have very important question.
Is Vitavox S2 capable to go down to 300Hz ?
Because now it is obvious, that my 42hz upper bass horn can't go higher than 300Hz, so I really need driver capable of doing 300Hz.
For now, as I can see, it is only JBL2490 and may be WE555.
Any other suggestions ?

10-14-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	96
Post ID:	22075
Reply to:	22074

Forgot to post photo :)

In garage before getting to the room.

I don't know why, but photo in room is turned during upload.

10-14-2015

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	97
Post ID:	22077
Reply to:	22074

Problem with driver, or???

Mura, it sure seems like a good 12" driver would be OK above 300 Hz. So, what's up?

Best regards,
Paul S

10-15-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	98
Post ID:	22078
Reply to:	22077

Horn equalization

Paul S wrote:
Mura, it sure seems like a good 12" driver would be OK above 300 Hz. So, what's up?

Best regards,
Paul S

I'm not sure that it is driver issue. May be 42hz horn equalization is effective only in 70-300 range.Real measurements are completely matched with the model!

10-15-2015

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	99
Post ID:	22079
Reply to:	22078

Three octaves only

Murataltuev wrote:
Paul S wrote:
Mura, it sure seems like a good 12" driver would be OK above 300 Hz. So, what's up?

Best regards,
Paul S
I'm not sure that it is driver issue. May be 42hz horn equalization is effective only in 70-300 range.Real measurements are completely matched with the model!

You get three octaves of horn loading and then the horn attenuates the signal at 24db/octave below the lower knee and 6dB/octave above the upper knee. So a horn with a lower knee of 42Hz will have an upper knee of about 336Hz regardless of the driver, and will attenuate higher frequencies at 6dB/octave.

EDIT: Have you figured out why 42Hz is about 15dB down?

10-15-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	100
Post ID:	22080
Reply to:	22079

46Hz, not 42

anthony wrote:

You get three octaves of horn loading and then the horn attenuates the signal at 24db/octave below the lower knee and 6dB/octave above the upper knee. So a horn with a lower knee of 42Hz will have an upper knee of about 336Hz regardless of the driver, and will attenuate higher frequencies at 6dB/octave.

EDIT: Have you figured out why 42Hz is about 15dB down?

My mistake...it is 46Hz, not 42Hz.And it is with opened back chamber for now.I'll measure accurately again to check what is going on in 300Hz+ region!

Page 4 of 8 (190 items)

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	5-ways from Speedysteve7..	Hehe - no invite for you...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	23	206302	05-20-2011
»	New	Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..	Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	8	151072	10-29-2005
»	New	Macondo’s lowest channel...	What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	150	1397527	09-15-2010
»	New	Plugin for drawing segmented petal horns i Sketchup..	Thanks...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	1	15980	08-15-2015
»	New	Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..	The "old" servo......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	73	343906	06-20-2015
»	New	Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..	Clever DIY going on where?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	97	1197675	11-19-2007
»	New	Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...	It is simple, but......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	87	319263	01-20-2016
»	New	The Kato-san's Goto system..	Brilliant...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	10	51572	05-23-2017