GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - That all about the residual difference.

08-23-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	1676
Post ID:	25561
Reply to:	25558

Voodoo and other things of interest

Thank you Clark for your comment.
Unfortunately, I think that you missed the point. It is possible that a power cord can change things. The description „better“ is a moving target however. Let us take for example a „full range“ driver in a backloaded horn speaker. Most will have deficient midbass and a cutoff of around 50 Hz. Can we talk about „better bass“ in this context? What extension and or qualities do we need to talk about better anything? What reference points allow us to determine if something is „better“ or just „different“. What is the difference between an opinion formed superficially and a fact?

In this case, a claim is made. No reference points were discussed (what WAS the change, in what context, are we talking about ULF/LF/midbass/upper bass or just their overtones). What changed in Amir after the new experience?

As far as short term comparisons go, I am a professional trumpeter and have been playing at a fairly high level for well over 40 years. One would think that I could pick up a new instrument and immediately declare its „qualities“. Reviewers actually often do this. It simply does not work. Sure, there is something that you notice, but after a couple of weeks or months, that „opinion“ changes because the context changes as you get into the instrument. Why? The same reason as I call this particular instance voodoo. What happens when we learn to listen is very complex. The information provided by only two speakers (or a trumpet)is „deficient“ in many ways and we learn to fill in the blanks through experience (well, some learn to fill in the blanks, others keep changing gear and NEVER develop any reference points). If we change something, we have to spend time to overcome the listening habits first. Even then, a „rating“ is often a very stupid thing because there is no free lunch. Even if we would fully understand all of the physics applied to a new trumpet or power cord, we still are not closer to a better experience until we learn to leverage whatever something does. That takes time and a serious approach.

In the case of a trumpet, the same instrument changes its playing quality dramatically depending on the environment. Playing outdoors makes the instrument play in a stuffy way. A nice concert hall gives me better feedback - everything is easier to play. For outdoors I pick a lighter weight instrument that gives me more feedback.

In the case of a power cord there are many things that COULD cause a „change“. Is that change bias confirmation? Is it initially more work for the brain because we have changed something? Should we have noticed the deficiency before? Have we given due attention to phase, plug quality, environmental issues (a certain length of wire can also be an antenna...). Are we noticing a crappy power supply? There are many further questions that must be asked - and even after this we still ONLY have a difference - not a qualitative measure.

I disagree with Amir that better ears hear faster. In my world, the more that I know, the more that I realize what I do not know. Good/better/best NEVER come up. Changes can show up and I can evaluate them and describe the differences and the context. Without the reference points, „better“ is just audiophool jargon. There is no credibility to those without process. They flap in the wind and tomorrow they find something else „magical“ but offer no value add because the experience is never qualified.

For the most part, I keep Analog cables and interconnects as short as possible to limit capacitive, inductive and reactive behavior. Shields are well earthed and I am anal retentive about checking for proper orientation of the power plug in the socket (in Germany we have no power line phase protection. The Schuko plug can be inserted at 0° and 180°).

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-23-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1677
Post ID:	25562
Reply to:	25561

The quantum audio righteousness.

Rowuk, ironically I am in agreement with your high horse approach and Amir’s “acknowledge and be happy” point of view. Almost in continuation to my thread from last week “Destination vs ceremony” I would like to ask a question. Not that it requests an answer, it is rather a “Cheshire Cat” type of the question. What we do it high-end, is it a ceremony to accomplish some kind of practical or abstract results, would it be the result with music or with us? Or what we do in high-end rather a ceremony to get a satisfaction to our objectives, whatever they are? If you are in camp with second ansver then you can easy see how you and Amir might be both right, sort of my version of quantum audio righteousness.

If we post slightly different question: what righteousness is more important: your of Amir’s then we have a very different game to play but we all agree that the answer to THAT question is not in the domain of audio at all and we need to switch the conversation from cable elevators to Thomas Mann’s level of soliloquy.

PS: To the rest of guys, including myself. This thread is about the mad... electricity. Let not to contaminate the mad electricity with human madness. :-)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-25-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1680
Post ID:	25565
Reply to:	25564

I wish it was simple....

Rowuk, I wish it would be as simple and as linear as you described it.

Let me to take it step by step.

The better AC even mean that variable characteristics of electricity result various consuming experiences of perceive sound. I do not name those characteristics and not sure that I ever know the final list of the characteristics but let all agree that the different electricity result different auditable experiences.

I do not think the designers of great equipment would rethink power supply architecture, they hardly acknowledge the problem and the few of them who do to go to the depth of the problem just enough to satisfy corporate quarter revenue. So, I would not expect a solution from there. It is snot even 80/20 type of problem but rather 99/1 problem….

To illustrate the complexity let look at your own statement that “weather plays a bigger part than the electricity”. Although I do not disagree with your feeling that humidity plays great role, I think to priority weather/humidity over electricity is mistake. Let look deeper.

There are right on surface well understood reasons why humidity lead to the results you described. More space and denser tone might come from the fact that higher humidity “soften” the deriver suspension, the cantilever’s suspension and results more low order harmonics and dropping resonance frequencies. Taking about Wagner tuning… The less noise from LP is very expendable as well as moisture act as lubricant over the LP tension. It is not to mention that some topologies, like yellow delivers for instance, are very much subjected to humidity change.

Ok, let to make the things more complicated as we are approaching the magic triangle. As the humidity rises and the sound become better than we left with the 3, almost philosophical, questions:

1)    Does higher humidity physically impact the playback process, including the simple reasons I described above?
2)    Does higher humidity impact sonic conductively of air?
3)    Does higher humidity impact our listening awareness?

It is not about the complexity of the question but rather the absence of a common methodological approach to observe each of the reasons in isolation. It is like a person who have a tendency to anxiety suddenly begin to feel lack of harmony between itself and surrounding. Does this lack of harmony come from the person perception of tit comes from the surrounding expression?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-25-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	1681
Post ID:	25566
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I think that it is simple

To answer the philosophical questions first - at least from my view:All apply, are measurable, BUT we have no correlation of the measurement to the brain of the listener(s).

We are all ultimately responsible for our own behavior, so I believe that the personal perception is the issue to target. My experience with continuous musical training constantly shows me how much "control" we have over our perception. We have syllabuses to train musicians but not listeners of music. This pretty much means that all results for "audiophiles" are more chance than plan.

As far as power supplies go, I am not aware of any serious attempt to even locate the electricity "problems". We have audiophile drivel about noise, impedance, even the quality of the wiring/outlets. All of this with no correlation to anything. Are the switched power supplies the source of all evil?

My testing has been to take a battery driven source, plug it directly into the multi channel amplifier and listen for an extended time in this configuration with music that I am familiar with. Then I add the preamp/buffer which is plugged in to AC and listen with the same source - now only with the buffer in between. Not having "bad days" with either set up (or a "better/worse" result), makes me lucky I guess. i know that Paul S went through quite a bit. I have not read everything that he probably wrote however.

I have some first hand experience with UPS regeneration but generally in Germany do not seem to have the problems with electricity that are often reported here.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-25-2019

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	1682
Post ID:	25567
Reply to:	25563

What Is Audible, and What Is Better

Robin, it has been interesting over the years that Europeans seem to express fewer frustrations with their AC power than Americans do. And I know from reading and some personal communications that many hi-fi nuts who live in SE Asia consider UPS a necessity. For me, although I am happy to talk about it, it is a simple matter of fact that "The sound quality varies like a ghoulish accordion", or something to that effect, which I wrote near the beginning of this thread, many years ago. And these variations are often (usually) in perfect accord with AC quality (or, lack thereof). When it comes to deep listening to serious Music, we are well into aspects of specific pitch, timbre, timing, and dynamics that distinguish one instrument or instrumentalist or vocalist from another, and how the voices interact, and how the performers and the audience interact, and the venue, on and on. Although "consistent" AC might be something equipment designers could allow for, I think the problems we are dealing with are both myriad and systemic, and we are probably stuck with these problems, or some other systemic issues, until we develop some other energy source, or at least another way to deliver it. Whatever we do with AC, "better" means a clearer perspective that provides us better insight, and for me this includes the opportunity to continue listening and re-listening to venerable works in my collection. As I have said before, absent this, I'm out of this game.

Best regards,Paul S

08-25-2019

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1683
Post ID:	25568
Reply to:	25567

Electricity is important in the entire playback chain

Paul S wrote:
Although "consistent" AC might be something equipment designers could allow for, I think the problems we are dealing with are both myriad and systemic, and we are probably stuck with these problems or some other systemic issues, until we develop some other energy source, or at least another way to deliver it.

The issue that will continue to be a problem is that the entire playback chain is not accounted for. We go to great lengths with PurePower and other devices to make the AC as stable possible, to reduce the variability, spikes, noise, etc. in the AC supply. Doing this makes the stereo equipment run in a possibly more stable state, which seems to be associated with better sound playback. Could we make it "perfect?" What about a completely isolated DC power supply for every device? Yes and no.

Even with all this, we do not account for the variability of the AC used in the recording process to make the records. It is unlikely to have been a "perfect" electricity day in the recording studio, the mastering sessions, the cutting lathe, etc. NOW, perhaps if we had a control signal, like a pure sine wave or square wave, recorded along with the audio tracks, we could introduce into our playback system a device to adjust the output to match this control signal, and this might reduce the variability and bring us closer to the reproduction of the sound waves of the actual recording event. However, it is unlikely to ever happen. Still, it is a thought, and maybe this can help us have insight into what we can do to combat bad electricity days.

08-26-2019

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Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #:	1685
Post ID:	25570
Reply to:	25564

Try Pure Power

rowuk wrote:
Do we simply not want a non-changing target? As regeneration does not seem to be „the“ solution (especially if the AC cord behind the regenerator changes bass), what does better AC even mean?
Perhaps the designers of great equipment need to rethink power supply architecture. Our power source will not get better over time. The drive to eliminate coal and atomic reactors does not leave us with a whole lot of options. Regenerative power, especially solar is not consistent and we do not have really good methods to store excess power.
For my own system, the weather plays a bigger part than the electricity. Certain nice things happen when the humidity goes over 60% (more space, denser tone, less noise from LPs).

Rowuk

do you have Pure Power ?
did you used pure power in your system?
I think pure power is a big step for better sound. I think pure power is very very effective tool for better sound.
there is no need to ask designers to design better PSU for bad electricity because more filtering will not give us better sound.Audio note is more sensitive to AC and i guess better PSU is more sensitive to AC quality.Audiopax do not use even regulator in the psu.
I have listened to some solutions like shynuta ac filter , isolation transformer , CAD GC3 ground and ... all were crap and i think the Pure Power 3000+ is the best solution i have tried. it just need a better texture in my system .

if you have a good system then two thing is recommended by me forever to have good sound, first is finding good speaker place , second is pure power, without them you will not have better sound.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

08-26-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1686
Post ID:	25571
Reply to:	25566

Read it again. It said them then it appears it does.

rowuk wrote:
To answer the philosophical questions first - at least from my view:

Rowuk, I very much not in agreement with your choosing the answer the first philosophical questions. I just think it is not accurately describing reality. I have written about it many times before. Juts a simple illustration to remind you if you miss it before. When our electricity is not good then with very focus targeting listening, we can identify some very specific and unique characteristic of sound that is very direct derivatives of the bad electricity. So, the very same very specific and unique characteristic of sound ae very distinctly auditable not only at my main system but in my car, battery powered Walkman, any other completely isolated devise or irrelevant topology. Furthermore, if you have some audio friends why are very intelligent listeners and who you trust and who are in your aria but have different power municipality then you very frequently corelate you negative listening experience with them. Warn you the same goes with good electricity days, what it is good then it is good across a wide aria and across all sound producing devises, including completely isolated. I experimented with it a lot 10-15 year back and I am very far from claiming the I have a definitive my take upon any of the 3 philosophical questions I have posted, If you want you can read my post with the 3 philosophical questions again.

rowuk wrote:
All apply, are measurable, BUT we have no correlation of the measurement to the brain of the listener(s).

Of cause not. If your measurable thing has no direct relation to your perception then you measure irrelevant thing in context of you experiment.

rowuk wrote:
We are all ultimately responsible for our own behavior, so I believe that the personal perception is the issue to target. My experience with continuous musical training constantly shows me how much "control" we have over our perception. We have syllabuses to train musicians but not listeners of music. This pretty much means that all results for "audiophiles" are more chance than plan.

Thee is a difference between "control" and condition. Also, do not problem even with control. I do insist that listeners perception is very much controlled and conditioned.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-26-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1687
Post ID:	25572
Reply to:	25569

No need to reply. I would not....

ArmAlex wrote:
Quality of electricity in recording studio is irrelevant, we hear what it is, as it is.

Unfortunately you are very wrong about that. Put in this way: I would not use the word “irrelevant”. It is very much relevant but it is rather not manageable for the people who deal with audio recordings that already took place.
Here is a “complicated” question to you, do not be harry with a answer, in fact there is no need to post the answer. You have a recording that was made at bad electricity day. Now you play the recording during very good electricity day. The question is how much of the original sonic nastiness hat come during recording will be inherited in the sonic result during the playback at good electricity day?

I know that if some stranger would read all of it he will feel that we are studying a hurricane in a glass of water but the reality is that they are incredibly complex and confusing things that no one is looking at more or less sensible level of methodological honesty.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-26-2019

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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 106
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #:	1688
Post ID:	25573
Reply to:	25572

Not an answer but clarification

Romy the Cat wrote:
ArmAlex wrote:
Quality of electricity in recording studio is irrelevant, we hear what it is, as it is.
Unfortunately you are very wrong about that. Put in this way: I would not use the word “irrelevant”. It is very much relevant but it is rather not manageable for the people who deal with audio recordings that already took place.

Maybe I abbreviated my sentence too much. I meant, or I should had wrote, It's irrelevant to bring in a factor which we have zero influence in it.

08-26-2019

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JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015

Post #:	1689
Post ID:	25574
Reply to:	25571

Common mode noise

One of the things that I picked up in this thread is the fact that if you use 2 PSUs in series, the sound degrades.This is typical of one unit generating common mode noise and this adds to that produced by the second unit.Even if you run them in parallel and driving different parts of the system, the cumulative effect will remain.Common mode noise passes through all electronic systems unless properly treated.
Let me explain common mode noise first.When diodes are used to convert a.c. to d.c. they generate this type of noise.The self capacitance of the device is charged and discharged with each waveform transition. This creates a tiny current pulse in series with the output voltage.This pulse has no energy and appears on the two output rails as a pulse having the same polarity on each rail. Therefore, each rail goes up and down together thus the voltage does not change. An oscilloscope does not show this pulse. A capacitor does not respond to this pulse either since the voltage on each terminal goes up and down at same time.
The only way to filter this noise is to use a current compensated choke; aka a common mode choke. This device will absorb the pulse appearing on each winding therefore self cancels.If you take any commercial product you will only find one of these on the a.c. input. You will rarely find any on the d.c. side of a circuit.What you will also find is that the choke that is used meets a very rudimentary specification and is less that useful in keeping noise out of other circuits in a system. This explains why switched mode systems have a bad name, they corrupt everything else.
I will continue this in a follow on email.RegardsJohn

08-26-2019

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	1690
Post ID:	25575
Reply to:	25574

Ps audio ultimate outlet

This product was discontinued but I still use several with my PP units. It was a balun to reduce common mode noise without limiting current. It does seem to help. One of the perplexing aspects of the double conversion devices is that they reduce but don't seem to eliminate all AC variability effects as seemingly confimed by different users here.
Also has anyone tried the Goal Zero Yeti devices? They are a battery conversion device marketed as a power backup device. The biggest one though is a 1250 W device. They apparently have several different battery types including lithium.

08-26-2019

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1691
Post ID:	25576
Reply to:	25573

Studying bad electricity

[quote user=“ArmAlex”] I should had wrote, It's irrelevant to bring in a factor which we have zero influence in it.

It is reasonable for musicians to remember about the aspects of the recording chain when they make a recording, and my experience was that the results from a studio using “audiophile” recording equipment was much more satisfactory to reproduce a “live” sound that a studio while did not — this cost a lot of money as we had to take everything to a new studio and completely re-do an album when the original result was quite horrible.

Further, for all of us as listeners, while we cannot control this “bad electricity” now, we may be able to do so in the future.

In the same way that we use a different needle for 33 or 78, stereo or mono, etc. when we understand the problem, we can better deal with it. it may be that “bad electricity is a stable and non-random repeatable phenomenon that we can address. Perhaps if we understand it better, we could have a “tone control” to adjust for the electricity of the day or of the day of the recording.

I would be very much interested in the accumulated data of what changes there are to the electrical AC power signal on “good days” versus “bad days.”

08-27-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	1692
Post ID:	25577
Reply to:	25574

Common Mode is a static event

JOHNR wrote:
One of the things that I picked up in this thread is the fact that if you use 2 PSUs in series, the sound degrades.This is typical of one unit generating common mode noise and this adds to that produced by the second unit.Even if you run them in parallel and driving different parts of the system, the cumulative effect will remain.Common mode noise passes through all electronic systems unless properly treated.
Let me explain common mode noise first.When diodes are used to convert a.c. to d.c. they generate this type of noise.The self capacitance of the device is charged and discharged with each waveform transition. This creates a tiny current pulse in series with the output voltage.This pulse has no energy and appears on the two output rails as a pulse having the same polarity on each rail. Therefore, each rail goes up and down together thus the voltage does not change. An oscilloscope does not show this pulse. A capacitor does not respond to this pulse either since the voltage on each terminal goes up and down at same time.
The only way to filter this noise is to use a current compensated choke; aka a common mode choke. This device will absorb the pulse appearing on each winding therefore self cancels.If you take any commercial product you will only find one of these on the a.c. input. You will rarely find any on the d.c. side of a circuit.What you will also find is that the choke that is used meets a very rudimentary specification and is less that useful in keeping noise out of other circuits in a system. This explains why switched mode systems have a bad name, they corrupt everything else.
I will continue this in a follow on email.RegardsJohn

As you describe it, common mode noise is specific to architecture and would always be present. The phenomena described in this thread comes and goes. It is as if the power companies change the supply - which they do to meet demand during different parts of the day. During those times, we also have heavier use of devices that require more power. So does the problem come from operating generators with heavier load or is the problem the devices using power? Is the problem garbage being induced to the grid by RF or other means? Is the problem described in detail by Romy (East Coast)and Paul (West Coast)the same as that mentioned by Alex (Iran). How do we explain less mention of these issues by western European audio practitioners?

Alex, I have a APC RT UPS which is a regenerator and UPS in one. I use it for on site recording as you never know what you get from the wall socket. Dimmed lights, PA and all sorts of other devices like air conditioning and refrigeration are plugged in randomly at those venues. For especially bad situations, the device has enough charge for operation of the recording devices and mix board for about 11 hours. In the last 15 years, I have only needed the DC operation once. The APC RT successfully „fixes“ these problems - at least in the context of a mixing board, multi channel ADC/DAC, PC for recording and kilometers of microphone cable. Perhaps the problems in the recordings are not as prevalent because power amplifiers are affected not small signal devices? I do not know.

This thread is many years old and it seems that no one that has the problem gets universal relief from the „PurePower“ or other device. Seeing how Alex introduced the idea that power cords between the PurePower and mains change bass shows me that this is not a „solution“ but a deficiency in the PurePower device.

If I did have this problem of dramatic variable sound quality due to grid influences, I probably would make notes of when it is not so bad and move my listening to those times.

In any case, my personal opinion remains. This phenomena should be solvable by „better“ power supply design. Until we know what causes the problem, there is no way to define better. As we leave coal and atomic energy, I suspect that things will get worse - maybe so bad that some smart people will do something ingenious.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-27-2019

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	1693
Post ID:	25578
Reply to:	25574

Common Mode is a static event

JOHNR wrote:
One of the things that I picked up in this thread is the fact that if you use 2 PSUs in series, the sound degrades.This is typical of one unit generating common mode noise and this adds to that produced by the second unit.Even if you run them in parallel and driving different parts of the system, the cumulative effect will remain.Common mode noise passes through all electronic systems unless properly treated.
Let me explain common mode noise first.When diodes are used to convert a.c. to d.c. they generate this type of noise.The self capacitance of the device is charged and discharged with each waveform transition. This creates a tiny current pulse in series with the output voltage.This pulse has no energy and appears on the two output rails as a pulse having the same polarity on each rail. Therefore, each rail goes up and down together thus the voltage does not change. An oscilloscope does not show this pulse. A capacitor does not respond to this pulse either since the voltage on each terminal goes up and down at same time.
The only way to filter this noise is to use a current compensated choke; aka a common mode choke. This device will absorb the pulse appearing on each winding therefore self cancels.If you take any commercial product you will only find one of these on the a.c. input. You will rarely find any on the d.c. side of a circuit.What you will also find is that the choke that is used meets a very rudimentary specification and is less that useful in keeping noise out of other circuits in a system. This explains why switched mode systems have a bad name, they corrupt everything else.
I will continue this in a follow on email.RegardsJohn

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

08-27-2019

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Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #:	1694
Post ID:	25579
Reply to:	25578

Pure Power Solution is over 90% effective

rowuk wrote:

Alex, I have a APC RT UPS which is a regenerator and UPS in one. I use it for on site recording as you never know what you get from the wall socket. Dimmed lights, PA and all sorts of other devices like air conditioning and refrigeration are plugged in randomly at those venues. For especially bad situations, the device has enough charge for operation of the recording devices and mix board for about 11 hours. In the last 15 years, I have only needed the DC operation once. The APC RT successfully „fixes“ these problems - at least in the context of a mixing board, multi channel ADC/DAC, PC for recording and kilometers of microphone cable. Perhaps the problems in the recordings are not as prevalent because power amplifiers are affected not small signal devices? I do not know.

This thread is many years old and it seems that no one that has the problem gets universal relief from the „PurePower“ or other device. Seeing how Alex introduced the idea that power cords between the PurePower and mains change bass shows me that this is not a „solution“ but a deficiency in the PurePower device.

If I did have this problem of dramatic variable sound quality due to grid influences, I probably would make notes of when it is not so bad and move my listening to those times.

In any case, my personal opinion remains. This phenomena should be solvable by „better“ power supply design. Until we know what causes the problem, there is no way to define better. As we leave coal and atomic energy, I suspect that things will get worse - maybe so bad that some smart people will do something ingenious.

Rowuk My name is not Alex , My Name is Amir from Iran :-)
I have used an UPS (Made in Iran) but it was not good, It was very very bad. My UPS refined the sound but it killed dynamics. I have no idea about other UPS in the market but i think the UPS should be optimized for Audio. the biggest problem in audio designers is most of their products just give you more refine sound but they kill dynamics.
I don't say the Pure Power is ultimate solution but i think it is the best solution i have tested. it is over 90% effective for my system and i can not live without it.
if i wrote the bass change it is not deficiency of Pure Power because home AC with long cables also change the bass. i remember in past when i had not pure power i changed the AC cable (delicated AC cable from AC panel outdoor directly to my room) and the bass improved.i think making better PSU is not the right way because it is similar to say we should design better DAC when we have not ideal Transport.when you have not good transport then you will not be able to correct it in DAC side.if AC is not good no PSU will correct it.I think we should have good AC not going for different PSU.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir

08-27-2019

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1695
Post ID:	25580
Reply to:	25579

There is no direct relation between PP’s sound and electricity.

Amir wrote:
Pure Power Solution is over 90% effective

Hm, Amir, I am sure that I am completely comfortable with the statement that Pure Power Solution is over 90% effective. It is not that I am not agreeable jerk and need to be in opposition to everything but I do think that attributing the success PP to only to the presumption that PP deal with electric problem is to be short sided. I have written about it before in multiple instances. Here is a very brief synapsis.

The sound after PP is unsustainably better but there is no evidence that it is because it “fix” the electricity problems, partially because we do not know what certainty what constitute “electricity problems” and how sound related to the thing that we do know about electricity. Any person who experience a great electricity day while measuring high harmonic distortions would know what I mean. PP does inject very positive qualities to sound and it is in part might be because it addresses some of intricate electric problems but we, or at least I, do not know it with certainly. The claims that PP manufacturers make is irrelevant to reality.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-27-2019

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	1696
Post ID:	25581
Reply to:	25580

The scientific method

Romy the Cat wrote:
PP does inject very positive qualities to sound and it is in part might be because it addresses some of intricate electric problems but we, or at least I, do not know it with certainly. The claims that PP manufacturers make is irrelevant to reality.

Quite correct. The subjective observation is the STARTING POINT. Just as Isaac Newton observed temperature changes on the sides of the area of the light separated by a prism, and he deduced that therefore there must be light outside the visible spectrum; it's the same way for us in audio.

We are confident that the PurePower is a positive change. Now we can only observe the changes in the AC output. Is anything reduced? Is anything added? Harmonic distortion? Even? Odd? Beat-to-beat variability? Amplitude modulation? When we understand and can detect the changes objectively, we are one step closer to understanding how we perceive sound and making a better stereo.

I am interested, in this thread on electricity, to hear a summary of the objective observations made on the AC signal output with the PurePower and other devices, and subjective improvements in sound.

Adrian

08-27-2019

Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree

Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #:	1697
Post ID:	25582
Reply to:	25580

I like it

Romy the Cat wrote:

partially because we do not know what certainty what constitute “electricity problems” and how sound related to the thing that we do know about electricity.

I also do not know.

I think Pure Power 3000 is not just a "wall AC problem fixer" and i think Pure Power has his own sound.it's sound is different to good AC days (I mean good AC days without Pure Power) and i like it's sound .I have some minor critiques but overally I like sound of Pure Power.
pp3000 injects life to music with opening a new world to listener , you maybe think it's sound is not real but i Like it.for example we have some photoshop filters that you can change the photo , the result may not be very very real but you will prefer it. do not mistake , pp3000 is not just a filter , it really improve the sound but some aspect of it's sound is like a new sound.

I just worry for my bad english writing.

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