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  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175272  05-28-2004
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  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163552  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230666  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  78979  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43202  10-31-2008
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07-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1626
Post ID: 25002
Reply to: 25000
Last will and testament
Romy, I prefer you think us idiots than reveal the secret sauce to a man that wants to publish it to the world. 
But I have decided not to take it with me and a detailed technical explanation is safe with my executor and I bequeath it to you.
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1627
Post ID: 25004
Reply to: 25000
PurePower -never change!
 Romy the Cat wrote:
This is why I am a bit skeptical and with big worry hear news that PP did some improvement. 


Since (at least comparing PP2000 and PP3000+) PurePower is still effective, the one thing we can say is that PurePower has NOT changed the part of the circuit topology - so far - that gives their units the ability to access Good Sound. 
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1628
Post ID: 25005
Reply to: 24998
Bybee: do you like it?
Paul,

As always, it is a big question if there is benefit in the home audio application. If you or anyone has used the Bybee devices, I'd be interested in hearing your results.

Adrian
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1629
Post ID: 25006
Reply to: 24996
Approaching the best "untreated" electricity
 Paul S wrote:
I hope they make a 10 cent fix that works across the board!  They'll sell dozens of them!

xD Yes Paul, that will make a very successful company!

With electricity, it's like the water, in my view. Untreated electricity is like a vast ocean. When I was on the Greek island Naxos many years ago, the ocean was so clear and calm on a windless day, I could stand waist deep, and if I waited a few moments, I could clearly watch as small fish began to swim around my ankles. But on some days, there are tons of tourists splashing around and the water is murky and turbulent with no hope of such clarity.

Our treatments try to recreate the still, clear ocean, but always are limited by scale. It's not the same with a tiny children's wading pool.

Adrian
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1630
Post ID: 25007
Reply to: 24984
Another approach to PurePower problems
 OracleAV wrote:
I really didn't get a chance to really audition the unit for its effect on sound quality.


As we already know well that PurePower affects the electricity even when not directly plugged into the audio system, it is reasonable to simply try plugging in the PurePower unit in another room where the buzzing cannot be heard, and see the effect on the audio quality.

For example, perhaps using PurePower with the solar array system may improve the overall quality of the electricity the stereo is fed, and it will still improve things!
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1631
Post ID: 25008
Reply to: 25002
Please do not stop old purepower models production
 PurePower wrote:
Romy, I prefer you think us idiots than reveal the secret sauce to a man that wants to publish it to the world. 
But I have decided not to take it with me and a detailed technical explanation is safe with my executor and I bequeath it to you.

Richard , i think romy think right about even a minor changes change the sound to toilet level , my trial and error proved me about that even minor changes could kill the sound , please do not discontinue old purepower production.
All of my friends also prefer old models because they are good looking designs.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1632
Post ID: 25009
Reply to: 25004
Have you heard new models?
 drdna wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
This is why I am a bit skeptical and with big worry hear news that PP did some improvement. 


Since (at least comparing PP2000 and PP3000+) PurePower is still effective, the one thing we can say is that PurePower has NOT changed the part of the circuit topology - so far - that gives their units the ability to access Good Sound. 

Have you heard new pp models? I mean new gold series.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1633
Post ID: 25010
Reply to: 25008
Updated casework and options
You can rest assured we did not make electronic design changes.  We added new casework and a set of feature options from customer wish lists. 
One of the more significant is the availability of LiFePo4  batteries. They do provide higher discharge rates, which improves, not detracts from performance.They also last pretty much the life of the product and allow those customers who strongly prefer to listen "off grid" as often as they wish.  
07-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1634
Post ID: 25011
Reply to: 24977
Does input ac affect output of PurePower regen?
We still maintain that the output is totally isolated from the input  AC - which after all is the reason for a battery pack - to make sure the DC bus is always stable.  We have done tests again and again in which we switch from battery to utility and back while challenging listeners to identify when the switch occurs.
They don't succeed. (Of course Romy may be an exception - we haven't tried it with him.)
There is another exception. If we pull the plug literally - instead of switching the AC line breaker on and off - the difference is sometimes noticeable.  The explanation is straightforward. When the plug is pulled the ground is interrupted. Grounding can be a very significant factor is system sound. And we must admit PurePower is not in the ground line conditioning business. We try to make sure our ground schemes don't contribute any ground problems - but our responsibility is the quality of the AC sine wave and the current sine wave on the line and neutral wires. Each audio installation needs equal care in maintaining good grounding practices. We know because we have been unfairly blamed for many ground loop problems - and every time without fail when the ground loops are found and eliminated the noise goes with them.
So sometimes grounding imperfections have more subtle sound consequences - and may explain apparent differences that are attributed to incoming AC affects. It is instructive to draw a circuit diagram of an audio system separated into the audio signal path, the AC power path and the ground wiring. The ground is by far the most complex.
p.s. If you have ground loop,issues we can point you to some excellent papers on ground loops and audio system ground problem diagnostics.
08-28-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 1635
Post ID: 25067
Reply to: 25011
Turbulent.
Romy, IIRC when you posted photos of your current home it has a river or something like that in there. You may be interested on Turbulent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?20=&v=f98unRjtQXI

Cheers!


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
08-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1636
Post ID: 25068
Reply to: 25011
There is a big difference for me
Well, with my unit, you are right under one condition. It does not matter if I am on the battery or the ac line as long as the unit is connected, it sounds the same but it does not perform good. However if I am on the battery and I disconnect the regen from the ac, either by physically taking the plug off the wall, or switching the interrupter switch off, then there is a great lowering off the noise floor. The unit performs great from just the battery disconnected from the wall. I emailed you about this but we could not find a solution. You thought, it was a fault off either ac or my system components. I checked and rechecked everything about my other gear, they have been checked by technicians too. For ac, I have direct dedicated line from the pole as well. Everything works silently without purepower connected. The ground has been checked by technicians and there was no fault... 

In the end, for the last two months I took the unit out of my system and now it is a lot more silent. I can not have same sound everyday which is bad but the noise is really lower and this has become my preference. I wish the unit performed as if it disconnected from the mains all the time. I even thought about adding lots of batteries and listen through battery only. I can add 8 more batteries on top of 4 in my battery pack (each battery pack has 4 batteries) and my charger in the regen can still take care of it. It would mean about an hour of listening to music which is not so long as I listen to at least 2 hours and generally longer... 

ps. I checked stromtank but it is too costly! and I do not have the chance to audition one at home...
08-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1637
Post ID: 25069
Reply to: 25068
Isolation not really
 kodomo wrote:
Well, with my unit, you are right under one condition. It does not matter if I am on the battery or the ac line as long as the unit is connected, it sounds the same but it does not perform good. However if I am on the battery and I disconnect the regen from the ac, either by physically taking the plug off the wall, or switching the interrupter switch off, then there is a great lowering off the noise floor. The unit performs great from just the battery disconnected from the wall.

This has been an on-going controversy. I too hear differences at different times of day and sometimes randomly. In my case the differences are reduced from just using wall AC. But the PP was only somewhat better for me than using PS Audio Ultimate Outlets (baluns) on each component. The isolation does not seem complete but the extent of the non isolation may be due to QC issues with the unit or the wall AC at the site or interactions with other components etc. You do seem to be suffering from a more extreme condition of isolation breach than I am. But I am hearing it as well so it is a question of degree. All you can do is try different outlets  or try it in different rooms if you can. Also you might check your residence wiring. Best of luck.
08-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1638
Post ID: 25070
Reply to: 25069
Dedicated line
I have direct dedicated line from the pole (electrical company) just for my sound system. This comes to a silent wire sound fuse fusebox (https://www.silent-wire.de/en/installationen/sound-fuse.html) and then directly to furutech rhodium plated non magnetic wall socket (http://www.furutech.com/2013/02/02/1866/). There is nothing else on this line. Technicians checked the grounding from the outlets too. 
Everything is silent when connected directly to the wall. 
08-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1639
Post ID: 25071
Reply to: 25070
Nice setup
So there doesn't seem to be much else left than the PP unit itself producing the noise or more unlikely some weird interaction between components.
08-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1640
Post ID: 25072
Reply to: 25070
It very much might be on your side.
 kodomo wrote:
In the end, for the last two months I took the unit out of my system and now it is a lot more silent. I can not have same sound everyday which is bad but the noise is really lower and this has become my preference. I wish the unit performed as if it disconnected from the mains all the time.

It is interesting as it is not my observation. In practical sense I do not see any big difference between PP connected or disconnected from mains. There are “some” but it is certainly not at the “noise” level. Are you talking about any auditable noise or rather about the foggy lost of expressivity at lower levels that we frequently call in audio “noise”? Do you acknowledge this noise when music is not playing? If yeas then you most likely have a faulty PP or something is leaking in your grounds. If the later then I might help you to debug it.
 kodomo wrote:
I even thought about adding lots of batteries and listen through battery only. I can add 8 more batteries on top of 4 in my battery pack (each battery pack has 4 batteries) and my charger in the regen can still take care of it. It would mean about an hour of listening to music which is not so long as I listen to at least 2 hours and generally longer... 
I would not do it. If you are wiling to invest more space and money into more batteries then get rig AC part from your amplification and go fully disconnected DC power.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1641
Post ID: 25073
Reply to: 25072
Noise is present
It is the second Romy, the noise is always present. There was always a little noise but when I had a soundsmith strain gauge system arrive, I was expecting not to have any noise. It is a hum free device. When I installed it thought, there was a buzz. I tried changing its adapters, but it was still there. After trying everything I dcided to take the pp out for the first time since I got it. The noise was gone. I started wondering if the hum from my old pre was related. I installed it back and that was very silent too. Then I noticed the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble is also completely gone. It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes, it made the phono pre hum more too. It does not matter if music is playing or not and the faint buzz does not change with the volume. The mc phono pre hum does change with volume though. Still, the same mc phono pre does not have any audible hum at the same level without pp.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1642
Post ID: 25074
Reply to: 25073
Noise and disconnected DC battery supply
 kodomo wrote:
the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble ... It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes...

Yes, that describes it. This is THE characteristic noise when there is a defect in the Pure Power unit. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly what electromechanical manufacturing flaw causes this. As you remember, i also had this issue. Then, my Pure Power failed completely. Then after a lot of effort and time, I got my replacement, which has been completely silent. It's a bit of a roll of the dice until Damien and Richard figure out what is causing this.
 Romy The Cat wrote:
If you are wiling to invest more space and money into more batteries then get rig AC part from your amplification and go fully disconnected DC power.

This would be fun. I often have fantasized about this, but it would be a lot of work modifying all the circuits around the rectifiers, etc. After all that, it will certainly affect the sound, but will it be a positive or negative change?
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1643
Post ID: 25075
Reply to: 25073
OK different issue than a failure to entirely isolate
I experience as do some others a variation in the effectiveness of the PP at certain times of the day/night cycle. Since it seems correlated at least partially to probable power co usage it seems reasonable to ascribe the variation to an isolation failure somewhere in the system. You are describing a defective PP unit. I regret to say you are in trouble because PP repair is almost oxymoronic.  As drdna found it took years before getting another unit. You might try taking it to a local audio repair shop if you have a good one nearby to see if they can figure it out. Otherwise you have years of correspondence ahead of you in all likelihood.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1644
Post ID: 25076
Reply to: 25073
Some debugging tips with PP noise
 kodomo wrote:
It is the second Romy, the noise is always present. There was always a little noise but when I had a soundsmith strain gauge system arrive, I was expecting not to have any noise. It is a hum free device. When I installed it thought, there was a buzz. I tried changing its adapters, but it was still there. After trying everything I dcided to take the pp out for the first time since I got it. The noise was gone. I started wondering if the hum from my old pre was related. I installed it back and that was very silent too. Then I noticed the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble is also completely gone. It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes, it made the phono pre hum more too. It does not matter if music is playing or not and the faint buzz does not change with the volume. The mc phono pre hum does change with volume though. Still, the same mc phono pre does not have any audible hum at the same level without pp.
Kodomo, well. I can testify that I do not have any of it. I do not think that I am deaf or that my playback is not efficient. If I had it then then I would never stop to harass Damien and Richard, presuming that PP is not operational yet or I would never use the PP. The fact that a unit in my playback introduces a known to me major auditable problem would bother me tremendously. 
 
Let clear the first perspective on the problem: it is possible that some kind unknown ether to us or to the PP manufactures problem exist in PP implementation that cause the problem. I do not mean the principle design of the unit as I do not have the problem but rather some kind of small deviation of assembly of the units that might cause the problem. This can be resolved only by PP as they need to analyses the assembling differences between my unit and the group of people who do not have the problem (I have witnessed in other people’s systems with PP a complete silence) vs the group that do have the problem. No one will be able to answer it but the PP as no one know what is the minute differences between the units. If it exists it literally might have to do with the name of the PP employee who build the unit or production run of some components of the boards.
The first perspective is most likely: I think you guys describing a normal ground loop. The ground loop is not only 60 or 120Hz even it very much might be at upper frequency and I have seen a lot of it. The good part is that it very much might be tested. I do not know the composition of you playback in elements and hos it is connected, so I will be talking about generics. 
 
Unplug every power of your playback and assemble the following: 
 
Main ->PP-> Digital Source-> Power Amplifier->Speaker 
 
In case you multi-amp use juts one upper mid channel. Place PP no closer than 6-10 feet from the playback 
 
Everything else MUST go and should not be connected nether over the power cords or over RCAs of the chain above. 
 
The PP must go to the main with ground but each single power unit you plug into PP MUST have a ground lifting cheater plug. 
 
Observe the noise you report. If it is there than unplug the Digital Source and see if the noise still there. If it is then short the power amp input RCA. If you use balance connectors then short the inputs accordingly. If you still have noise then touch your amplifier ground with you home external ground. Your amp’s ground is floating now and you might have as much as 120V between amp’s ground and earth but it should not be current in there, so it should be save to short it. Still, use a common sense and the best if you do not know what you do to short the amp’s ground and earth for the first time with a non-LED lighting bulb: if the bulb goes off then you have current. 
 
Switch the PP in buttery mode and unplug the mains. Observe what happens with the noise. 
 
Please provide a feedback of the noise is gone.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1645
Post ID: 25080
Reply to: 25076
I think I already did that
Thank you for your support on debugging Romy. When I had the soundsmith and encountered the problem, Mr. Lederman tried to help me and we did something along your lines. Rather than digital, we did it with his sg200. 

mains-->PP-->sg200 (input shorted)-->power amp-->speaker (The faint noise was there. When the input was not shorted for the sg200, there was more noise)

The noise is only absent when the unit is on battery mode and the pp is unplugged

I did not try lifting the ground of the amp when connecting to pp. So I will do that as well.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1646
Post ID: 25081
Reply to: 25080
Never use the mains (or PP) ground, ever!
 kodomo wrote:
I did not try lifting the ground of the amp when connecting to pp. So I will do that as well.

 
Well, what we ere are talking about then? If you are not lifting the ground on each component that connected to PP then you open yourself to huge ground look problem. I have learned it back in 90s with my very first PP, do not forget that you connect the component over RCA grounds and the second ground over power line is fundamentally bad idea. I for over 20 years have been running none of my components use main’s grounds of PP ground for this matter. In the today world the main ground that you do not control is not only bad for sound but electrically disagrees.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-01-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1647
Post ID: 25082
Reply to: 25081
Just unplug
The noise problem in pp is not related to audio system ground and lifting ground will not make it silent.The only way you could get silent pp is to unplug it from the wall.I have heard (in this topic before page 44) the battery charger in pp is cause of noise.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1648
Post ID: 25083
Reply to: 25080
Hummm Dinger
It's hard to give prescriptions for ground problems, since they may be both myriad and complex.  I can offer that my own current system performs best with all 3rd wire grounds disconnected from the wall socket at the component.  For all I know, this may also apply to the PP unit.  In my present case I also need a dedicated ground rod and line for my phono, and to this I connect ground "bleeder" wires from my cartridge, tone arm, phono IC shields, SUT, TT, and phono stage.  In the case of the PP, it must surely load the house ground with noise, and I suppose it also broadcasts noise to any "antenna" that is near enough, as well.  The low level gain on a phono stage is certainly apt to pick up and amplify any signal on its its gain path, no matter how it gets there.

By now, every GSC member who buys a PP must know that their QC is a crap shoot, also their satisfactory implementation may require some work, even when they are in prefect working order.  And close GSC readers know that "expensive" phono cartridges are also prone to QC and general integration problems, so that can't be ruled out until it's ruled out, either.

Good luck!


Best regards,
Paul S
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1649
Post ID: 25084
Reply to: 25083
Plug Polarity
This trick of disconnecting all the grounds works, depending. . . I am not a happy or unhappy, as the case may be, PP owner, but I know this to be the case anyway.

Now, is everyone aware that which way the plug is mounted in the socket make a difference as well? (I could supply references on this for the uninitiated.) The deal is, each unit in the system must be tested to determine which way is correct for the overall configuration. If ground loops and such seem to affect performance of the PP, then perhaps this effect should be taken into consideration as well.

The test is simple, a DVM will swing it.
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1650
Post ID: 25085
Reply to: 25084
The Wood Effect
It's always good to hear from Clark. 
Here is the reference to his article:
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm
Page 66 of 77 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 64 65 66 67 68 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175272  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112368  07-10-2005
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