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07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 1401
Post ID: 21810
Reply to: 21808
The space of alternatives
fiogf49gjkf0d
I doubt PP evaluate their products with anything like your playback, or even mine. Their success is likely accidental, but how rare an accident is not something we can conclude on without wider testing. In the EU it is easy, for anything bought online is covered by a 30 day return clause: rather than complaining about PP, more of us on this side of the Atlantic could be testing the alternatives.
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 1402
Post ID: 21811
Reply to: 21809
Noise level
fiogf49gjkf0d
The fan is given as <15dB at one meter, which is about right on my estimation, though I have not measured it in my unit.
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1403
Post ID: 21812
Reply to: 21810
Speculations....
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
In the EU it is easy…
 
Well, I would like to pitch one more complication that you EU folks might experience. I have a suspicion that to swing 220V is more complicated using the class D generation then 110V. I mean it is not “complicated” but requires more “actions”. The 220V would suck twice less current but for class D current is not a problems, the voltage is. I would not be surprise if PP use extra amplification stage for 220V units. The units still have 8X12V batteries. So, with 96V input they more likely use different actions in the units to produce 120V and 220V. This is just my speculations and it is not based on anything that I know.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1404
Post ID: 21813
Reply to: 21809
An outsider observation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy would seem to have the right full summary here.
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1405
Post ID: 21814
Reply to: 21813
230V
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy is correct regarding "extra actions" for a Can/Am standard PP to accomodate not only the 1/2 current/2X voltage, but also 50 vs 60Hz, I think. I don't know about the PP, but the QC of the "commercial" generation of electricity is all about the tightest possible control of both the frequency and the wave form (not to mention maintaining the overall "balance" of The Grid).

Of course the PP is on the level of performance a "happy accident", like most of the gear we wind up settling for, and notwithstanding the "Proud Parents". I think it would not take so very much (in "commercial" terms) to reverse engineer the PP results, but - no doubt - the cost/benefit in this is literally plotted against the "alternatives" as far as "investment options" by any person or group that could reasonably undertake such a thing, in the first place. I think if this really "penciled", we would already see competition. Despite I always bitch about their "QA" and "Customer Service" I have been amazed that the PP was (when it "worked" at all) a very-rare-for-hi-fi, plug-and-play solution.



Paul S
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bonzo75
London
Posts 4
Joined on 09-25-2014
Post #: 1406
Post ID: 21815
Reply to: 21811
Offtopic
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
The fan is given as <15dB at one meter, which is about right on my estimation, though I have not measured it in my unit.

Hi decoud, I think you live near Kensington. So do I. Not sure how I can email on this site, but do drop me a note on kedarkd@gmail.com - I am interested in listening to the Danleys. 
Thanks
07-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1407
Post ID: 21816
Reply to: 21814
Fan Noise from "Alternatives"
fiogf49gjkf0d
May I ass-u-me that any real alternative to the PP is also Class D, with "dashed" 'scope traces? In that case, regarding fan noise from alternatve regeneration devices, shouldn't any switching devices (including the PP) be kept away - or even shielded - from hi-fi equipment, anyway, due to toxic EMI waste they broadcast? If the alternative unit is otherwise worthy, go for it (and share results, please...).


Paul S
09-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bonzo75
London
Posts 4
Joined on 09-25-2014
Post #: 1408
Post ID: 22013
Reply to: 21816
Changing PP 2000 sockets
fiogf49gjkf0d
Does anyone know how I can change my PP 2000's EU sockets to US style sockets without having to send it back?
09-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1409
Post ID: 22014
Reply to: 22013
But that is me.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I hope you understand that US style socket means 220V, not only the sockets style. If it is what you want to do then it should not be a problem, I am sure they use standard sockets style. Do the US style sockets and US style socket have the same layout of the mounting holes? I do not know the answer. Honestly, if it was up to me then I would not change the sockets but rather I would have a good quality US style power strip where I would convert the male side to US style to accommodate the PP and then I would leave the PP alone. One last advise, if you do go for change the sockets then after you disconnect the butteries do discharge the control unit with the residual electricity it will have…>>



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1410
Post ID: 22015
Reply to: 22014
US Style backs
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Hubble NEMA 5-15R duplex receptacles do not fit in the modular Schuko mounting space.  You can either purchase a new back assembly already pre-wired with US style receptacles or we can supply much more cost effectively a modular Nema 5-15R receptacles that does fit in the Schuko mounting holes. That will result in 7 outlets. 
09-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bonzo75
London
Posts 4
Joined on 09-25-2014
Post #: 1411
Post ID: 22016
Reply to: 22015
Changing PP sockets
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi thanks - can you please let me know if I can fit in a modular Nema 5-15R receptacle easily myself, without much diy?
Also, will this keep the sonic qualities the same?
09-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1412
Post ID: 22017
Reply to: 22016
US Modular receptacles
fiogf49gjkf0d
The electrical performance should be identical to the Schuko.  Email me at richard@purepoweraps.com for details.
10-12-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015
Post #: 1413
Post ID: 22055
Reply to: 6428
REGENERATION in general
fiogf49gjkf0d
Look at the solution in a different manner.
Regeneration will typically not be able to service large power transients thus, they are best suited to SET, i.e. constant current systems.  Similarly any control loop cycling will usually be heard since they typically operate roughly in the voice band.

A change of view is to use a 220/48 volt SMPS as the core voltage source for a complete system. These will overcome all of the problems of erratic and noisy commercial power supplies.  The commercial units are noisy though on their outputs typically, 150millivolts 5 to 8 meg in scope so you have to add a back end filter for this.  As with all SMPS, the front end filters are quite inadequate simply because the regulatory standards are so poor thus will interfere with other units hooked up on the same power feed.

48 volt to 6.3, 2.5 and 5 volts converters are easy to make or buy so in the end an amplifier will have fully regulated supplies for every power supply.

The surprise is the totally different sonic result when all of these converters are in place.  A DHT tube will no longer be slowed down by the associated power capacitors.  The key reason is the holdover time of a 100uF cap on a 60 Hz supply i.e  2-3 milliseconds whilst a 100uF cap supported by a 300 kilohertz supply is typically 1 microsecond.

The future lies in using SMPS because the Regulators (globally) want to see the back of iron bases supplies that are very resource wasteful.

Hope this helps.
John R
10-12-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1414
Post ID: 22056
Reply to: 22055
Cat: Bell; Genius!
fiogf49gjkf0d
John, the problem so far has been finding reliable, working examples of available solutions that actually get the job done for high-demands hi-fi, not to mention finding something like this that works for big amps and phono stages (or DACs) simultaneously.

Do you have an example or examples?


Best regards,
Paul S
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015
Post #: 1415
Post ID: 22083
Reply to: 22056
Converters within amps etc
fiogf49gjkf0d
To answer the question WRT reliability.
 I have built wholly switched mode amps with 2A3, 300B and now a 45.

 I also have a DAC 44 K only, no over sampling, no attenuation and 1 clock cycle switching into 1704 chips.  The design focus on the DAC has been the absolute removal of all high frequency noise thus, it is quiet!!  It removes the low level shadowy noise that lays behind all signal processing and the DCS owner spotted that immediately.  It was A-Bd with a DCS system using their master-clock and it came out quieter.  


Reliability - one system using the DAC, an associated Line Amplifier driving a pair of 2A3 amps working into a small horn system has been running  for 6 years and to be noted, it has only been powered down once by the owner for a house move.  The EML power tubes have now run for more than 20,000 hours.

 With regard to the DAC power, I use a series/shunt supply that I use for all tubes.  It is small, 4 by 2 inch and I fitted a trim-pot to make it universal.  Otherwise, a fixed resistor is used for reduced drift and improved reliability.
This package is aimed at the DIY guy who can experiment with different tubes.  It has seen service on 10Y, 801, 6C45, 45, 6N1 and a number of DACs.

 I am not a manufacturer however, I would like to see this particular unit in  wider use because it really does make a difference to even the humblest tube, DHT and IDHT.. It is NOT cheap even when you build it yourself

In relation to phono stages, I have not built one.  I should point out that the shunt section of the circuit is limited to 6.5 volts and 3 amps as it is a commercial product. 

Hope this helps.
John
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 60
Joined on 10-18-2010
Post #: 1416
Post ID: 22085
Reply to: 22083
Intrigued
fiogf49gjkf0d
John,
What you are saying is intriguing but ultimately frustrating.
Would yo be willing to go into further detail of your powering scheme?
Are these schematics available to view?  No question what you describe is very different from the norm.  I do not have a fear of switchers!
In the process of planning a power supply for a DAC and would like to try what you are suggesting.
Take care,
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1417
Post ID: 22086
Reply to: 22083
Circuits?
fiogf49gjkf0d
John, thanks for answering, but I am still a long way from understanding exactly what you are suggesting. I understand if you want to keep something proprietary, but even then I would need to have a clearer "picture" of it. This may be at least partly due to my own "experience" with switch-mode PS, which has been far less satisfactory for me than yours has been for you, at least with respect to amplifiers. At this point, up to now, my interest in switching PS has been limited to trying to wrap my head around the Pure-Power-type "dashed traces" sine waves on the "incoming AC". And even here I have had questions about rampant EMF. Sure, all these things might be "dealt with", as they (apparently) have been with my own DAC. But you are the first person so far who is claiming widespread success based on "theoretical advantages" with switching PS here at GSC. As for the low voltage/current limitations, once we take care of that, why not go DC? For example, for whatever reason, my own (switch-mode) DAC sounds better from a big battery, not to mention that Pure Power users say they can still hear differences in ever-changing upstream AC quality. I guess I still want to know just how switching PS "improves" the sound, apart from "faster caps". Don't get me wrong; if I figure out something "works", I go with it first and "answer questions" later.


Best regards,
Paul S
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015
Post #: 1418
Post ID: 22090
Reply to: 22086
Smps ramblings
fiogf49gjkf0d
I will address the low voltage DAC power supply first since it has multiple applications.

The front end comprises a commercial 48/12 volt 20 watt dc/dc converter.  This basically is used to provide 1000 volt isolation input to output otherwise you cannot hook it up to a DHT.
I fit a number of common mode chokes plus high performance tantalum SMD capacitors to control the noise and deliver this to a POST shunt regulator chipset.  The output of this package  is also passed through 3 more common mode chokes plus more SMD caps.  The footprint is 120 by 30 mm and with a height of 20mm.  The output is floating.

Since I use a 48 volt bulk supply, feeding  total of 3 regulators plus the B+ system, I rather obviously uses a 48/12 converter and , this particular package operates from 32 to 72 volts.  However, in this footprint, there are a dozen or more combinations of inputs.  A 12 volt to 12 volt combination is available if you want to use batteries.and the supplier is Meanwell out of Taiwan and supported by element12 aka Farnell.  The supply code is jck2048s12 and the Farnell code is 173-8261.

for experimental purposes, I can supply you FOC and no obligation, one unit minus the converter because of its cost and weight.  The front end is equipped with a capacitor generally 50 or 63 volts and yet another Cm-choke.  Choose your input voltage, fit and go.


To cover the issue of the advantages of SMPS when optimized for low common mode noise, is that the source impedance is very low indeed.  The operating frequency means that 1 uF caps are used for the holdover requirements.  In this particular design, the shunt regulator operates with a forward mode inductor, just a few microhenries and it is turned on and off using high speed DMos typically at 500 kilohertz.  When used for general purpose supplies, it does not require output filtering.  In the case of a DAC or small signal tube, there is some common mode noise which needs to be controlled.

From a deeper technical standpoint, go and open any modern day SMPS and look for a CM-choke.  You will find one on the ac supply side because the Regulators globally want to see one to keep the mosfet switching crud out of the public supply.  Regrettably, the global specifications are based upon cheapness and not noise control.  In simpler terms everybody fits the minimalist choke and nothing more. 

With regards to the output side, you will not find such a choke because designers do not understand the subject and/or do not see the need.
To meet the regulations for EMC, the "high" side of the circuit is linked via a pair of "Y" capacitors to the zero volt rail of the output.  Thus such noise is dumped without any attenuation whatsoever onto the ground rail of the following equipment.  If you are confident enough, open up your DAC and locate the Y capacitors and cut them off.  Surprise, your system is now much quieter and cleaner.  These caps are typically Blue, marked "Y", rated at 2000 volt, 33 picofarad. The circuit board is always equipped with a broad white silk screen track that passes under the ferrite transformer.  This is the high and low demarcation barrier and it sometimes has cutouts along the line to improve the isolation.  The "Y" cap(s) will be seen to straddle this demarcation line.

Enough for now.  I will share my solutions but please note the B+ supply is complex and requires technical skills to build.  Anyway, we will wait and see if there is enough interest.

Regards
John
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015
Post #: 1419
Post ID: 22092
Reply to: 22085
Smps powering
fiogf49gjkf0d
The system starts as a commercial multi voltage smps unit, 48 volt output from Meanwell.
I place this in a box because I have to equip the unit with a multiple pole filter card.
The output is fixed, 300 watts and connected to a dc filter board equipped with 4 outputs namely amp1, amp2, line amp, DAC.
They are in turn rated at 2amps, 2 amps 1amp and 1 amp and the CMchokes are sized to suit.
I hard wire each of these in turn with a 4 way power cord equipped with a special 4 way plug on the end.

The significance of the 4 way power cord is that I build all of the system with a Power Ground (PE) and an RF ground and of course the main power feeds  +24 and -24.  Over the years of development I have identified common mode noise sources and have designed solutions to control this noise.
The PE connections are brought into the box and are connected to the power plug socket to comply with safety regulations.
the RFG connections are terminated on a dedicated single socket on the back of the box;actually an Eichmann binding post.  This is connected in turn to a plug for insertion into a power strip.  Anally retentive audiophiles can of course connect this directly to a ground post hammered into the soil.  I live on the 23rd floor so I connect it to the power strip.  The plug location does make a difference so it is to be tried out in each location for best results.

Each amplifier and line amplifier is fitted with a socket and a central filter unit that serves to isolate each of the converters from each other.
The outputs are respectively: tube 1, tube 2, DHT filament and the B+ generator board.  Nowadays I use a common filament supply for ease of build and it happens to out perform the other types that I have built over the years.

I have covered the filament supply in a similar post today and in the case of  DAC supply, the same applies.
If by chance your DAC needs 15 volts for example, I cannot help there.  But, as an advisory,if you use the bulk supply smps, obtain the same converter module from Element 14, choose a lower rated version, equip the output with at least 2 different types of common mode chokes caps on the front, center and end to bring the nose levels down and hook it up. The components all fit on Vero board centers otherwise hard wire using hookup wire.

Depending upon general interest, I will make available to the individual whatever he requires to move forward with this.

I should point out that I live in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia so unless anyone lives locally, listening will not be possible.  Tourists though will be most welcome.

Sharing is GO.
Regards
John

Schematics -- can be made available however, we need to determine file types and so forth for readability.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JOHNR
Posts 24
Joined on 10-12-2015
Post #: 1420
Post ID: 22114
Reply to: 22092
2 filament boards
fiogf49gjkf0d
Pictures:P1010132.JPGP1010132.JPG
10-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 60
Joined on 10-18-2010
Post #: 1421
Post ID: 22145
Reply to: 22114
Good introduction
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for your generosity with your work.
I have been interested in smps since John Camille mentioned he was working on a filament supply using smps.  Unfortuntely he died before this was finished.  This was twenty years ago when mentioning smps around the typical SET enthusiast would have you escorted out of the club.
There has to be a way to make it work and it does seem one should be able to make less affected by the line.
I look forward, with Mr. Besnow's patience, to reading more about your power supplies.
Take care,
10-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 1422
Post ID: 22146
Reply to: 22092
I find this fascinating
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you for sharing this. I have been experimenting with commercial switching supplies and various filtering schemes, but have not found a winning combination yet. I am very interested in trying this. Please make more info available.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-24-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Don C
Posts 2
Joined on 10-24-2015
Post #: 1423
Post ID: 22148
Reply to: 4571
The original PurePower designer is back!
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.audiocominternational.com/latest-news/2015/08/propower-regeneratorsperfect-power-for-hi-fi/

They look the same as the 1050 and 3000 PurePower units!

Only available in Europe however.

Probably due to the crooks in Canada (PurePower Canada)  owning the North American rights to the design. 
10-24-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1424
Post ID: 22149
Reply to: 22148
ProPower available is USA
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think these are also available in the USA....

http://www.ppowerus.com/audio/distributors/


Adrian
10-24-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1425
Post ID: 22150
Reply to: 22149
We Really Care
fiogf49gjkf0d
Try clicking the "Customer Care" tab...

Plus ca change...


Paul S
Page 57 of 77 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 55 56 57 58 59 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175272  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112365  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  924734  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264807  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108287  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163551  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230665  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  78978  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43202  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  83953  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29353  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16690  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9947451  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154711  10-24-2010
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