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  »  New  The crossovering Messiah is coming...air capacitors..  The air-transformers from Santa...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  64376  11-22-2004
  »  New  The Edgarhorn RTA response...  Poor quality crossover components?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  83311  08-29-2007
12-10-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 1859
Reply to: 1858
Environmental magnetic influence to high sensitively?
 drdna wrote:
I have found the next obvious glaring problem, which is contributing to the muddy sound I described earlier.  There is a mismatch between the two channels.  The right channel is very slightly softer than the left with a very slight change in the sound like it is vaguely from an old-fashioned radio, but very subtle.  I tested this by listening with a mono signal to each channel one at a time.  I can tell this from anywhere I stand, far away or with my ear right next to the speakers (so I do not think this is a room acoustics effect).

I found that the same signal from the same RCA output on the preamplifier through the same wire would make this different sound going to the right amplifier and speaker than going to the left amplifier and speaker.

So I switched the amplifiers and there was no difference.
Then I switched the speaker cable and there was no difference.
Then I switched the speakers and there was still no difference.

Then I became very confused and decided to see if you have any sugestions?

I do not understand what you describe. One of the channels is softer. You mean the softer tonally or “softer” as having les db output? Take an AC voltmeter or a DB meter with a line input and measure the out voltage from you power amp feeding it by a reference not of stable amplitude. You right and left channels should have an identical voltage. The distance from the listing position to each MF driver should be also identical. You have to completely disregard the acoustics asymmetry of your room for right and left channels. The acoustics asymmetry is not an enemy but actually is very helpful tool…

The line level devised usesly more or less stable and mostly likely the deviation of gain in power amplifier usesly the problems. Another common problem is that the crossovers in right and the left channel are not bult identically…. Still you clamed that you switched speakers and amplifiers and did not detect any differents… Well, if I would knot how exactly the problem of “softness” manifest itself perhaps I might suggest something. Meanwhile, I have seen before how the specific magnetic fields might quite adhesively after what speakers do. I do not know the EdgarHorns crossover. I do not think they should be “serious” and I doubt that he tune then individually for each driver type. Still in his upper bass horn he most likely used a coil to low pass the channel. Most likely he use a second order with tweeter, which would demand coils. The make the EdgarHorns having 4 coils (+ MF and HF voice coils). During the operation of the drivers, and particularly of the air core coils were use in crossovers and if the speaker sit in a magnetic filed, the inductance of the drivers, coils talks to each other and produce quite auditable results…. Do not forget that you are in high sensitively work and with 110dB you have why should be able to pick your local AM station on your coils if you position them properly….

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive…

Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence…

Rgs,
The caT




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
CO
Posts 37
Joined on 11-18-2005

Post #: 27
Post ID: 1863
Reply to: 1859
Re: Environmental magnetic influence to high sensitively?

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 Romy the Cat wrote:

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive…

Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence…

Rgs,
The caT



Hi romy,

Was the coil shorted to be effective?

You did not see the need to do the other channel as well or the cost would not justify it?
If you only had that problem in one corner then te cause must have come from your own equipment or wiring? So what you mean is the EMI is directly sent out through the driver and not from being amplified bij the amp first ?
I have noticed a slight improvement by placing a ferrite on the speaker wires at the amp.


I have always wondered if its bad to use the energy efficiant lamps etc. Although alot of equipment also has swiching power supplies. And how about the neighbors.....

You have mentioned numerously that you notice the quality of power supply change. What kind of actions have you taken that dont harm the sound?

Maybe this last part should go in a new thread.

Regards, Collin


12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slack key
Hawaii
Posts 5
Joined on 12-28-2011

Post #: 28
Post ID: 17599
Reply to: 1822
Edgarhorns imaging and soundstage correction with DEQX
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.  I read some reviews from the DEQX website and sent them an email but still waiting for more information.  Will the DEQX help or is soundstage and imaging an inherrent problem with horn speakers?
I recently listened to Magnepan's 1.7's and the soundstage and imaging were quite apparent compared to the Edgarhorns.  You are surrounded by the music whereas with the horn speakers this effect is somewhat achieved only with near-field listening.
The current model DEQX HD Express and Reference Calibration Kit is nearly $3k plus it is my understanding that if you want the DEQX to do the crossovers I would need separate amps for each driver.  This will complicate the setup with way too much equipment.
Are there any mods (for the speakers) that I should look into before going the DEQX route?
Thanks,
Marc 

12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 29
Post ID: 17609
Reply to: 17599
Wrong questions
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't want to hurt your feelings but this is a confusing set of questions; maybe you might spend some quality time thinking what your audio problems and end goals are. Some useful examples (and their evolution) are scattered throughout this site. None are perfect but the thought process and methodology is helpful.

Incidentally, digital EQ is a great way to kill sound. This site and others explain why; you can try it on your own of course if you aren't convinced. However, it is really helpful tool for calibration and testing purposes. 
12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slack key
Hawaii
Posts 5
Joined on 12-28-2011

Post #: 30
Post ID: 17610
Reply to: 17609
Edgarhorns - audio problems and end goals
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks, Scooter.
I am glad to hear from someone so quickly.
I've been an "audiophile" for only 10 years or so.  With the Edgarhorns, I am currently using a Cyrus Brenneman integrated amp (KT100).  I also have a Yamamoto custom 2A3 (single plates) which I also like.
As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.
Marc

12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 17612
Reply to: 17610
Lost in space?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 slack key wrote:
As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.
Move your Edgarhorns further from the back wall and treat the back wall - it will give you the depth of imaging. To “sit in a precise spot” – that it absolutely normal – this is how all audio works, Are you planning to play golf while you are listening your Bruckner? While do you care about imaging if you are playing golf? If you care about imaging then be where the imaging shal be…

You will not find any useful information about digital EQ at this site. If you would like to play stupid games with DSP phase faking in order to get “more stereo” than you can bit it has nothing to do with digital EQ. BTW, digital EQ is not “other avenues related to horn speakers” but rather the refuge of horn speaker’s bottom eaters.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=775#775

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 32
Post ID: 17617
Reply to: 17599
Edgarhorn, EQ, Soundstage
fiogf49gjkf0d
 slack key wrote:
I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.
Marc, finally I have something to say. I also have the Edgarhorn speakers and use a 2A3 SET.  I have tried the DEQ in the past, and some people love this. I did not. I think it very much depends on what you want. The DEQ gave a very balanced and neutral frequency balance to the music, but for me it sucked out the soul of the music. In fact even without any so-called EQ, just having the DEQ in the system caused the sound to deteriorate. For me it is all about the connection to the Living Presence of the Sound, so it was not an acceptable solution. 

Now other people have used the DEQ and Edgarhorns for their satisfaction. They do get a very nice soundstage and tonal balance this way, even though to me the music becomes uninvolving and energy-sucking. If you are interested mostly in soundstage and microdetails, yes then this may be a good option for you. But that is not my interest, and with DEQX, the prana has left the prasad, so to speak. I could never imagine giving up the benefits of horn speakers for Maggies, as much as I loved them 20 years ago, but if you enjoy them then sell the horns and go with that because all speakers have different weaknesses and strengths. Audio is a fascinating exercise in design compromise. Don't waste your time thinking that you can make a speaker do something it is not good at with little tweaks; just get a different speaker.

That said, I bet you have your speakers set up in a traditional position in your room. The way you describe the narrow listening zone, etc. is a giveaway. Well, there is another sweet spot and how to find it is described on this website in detail. This other sweet spot is not where you expect it to be and you will spend a good deal of time with toe in and toe out, and moving the speakers just a tiny few mm, until it will snap into focus. Also, you must work on the midrange/tweeter, which can be moved separately. For me, I had to adjust them slightly asymmetrically. Now, it is all worth it and I have tape marks on the floor to mark the spots exactly. The soundstage opens up and I can move quite freely and still enjoy excellent three dimensionality. Again the DPOLS is essential for the appreciation of the horn speaker but you will have to experiment to find it.

Adrian
12-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slack key
Hawaii
Posts 5
Joined on 12-28-2011

Post #: 33
Post ID: 17622
Reply to: 17617
Edgarhorns - Spaced out
fiogf49gjkf0d
Lost in Space?  More like Spaced out.
Taking Tramadol and Soma for a cervical problem.  I listened to Art of the Portuguese Fado Guitar and everything was 3D.
Kidding aside, I did some reading yesterday.  Some online articles on the DEQX makes me want to buy one.  Then there are many postings against digital correction devices.  I am glad to hear from Adrian that he tried the DEQX and found it wasn't to his liking.  I too like the horn sound so onwards to educate myself on speaker design and setup and other factors that contribute to what I want to hear. 
For Adrian, have you tried other amps with the Edgarhorns?
I prefer the Cyrus Brenneman KT100's over the Yamamoto 2A3 singles.
Did you do any modifications or redesign on the crossovers?
I had those big military caps replaced with Hovland Musicaps, added bybees, silver wiring.
For the tweeter, I replaced the Fane with JBL 075's.
Midrange is JBL 2441.
Mid-bass is JBL D-131
Seismic Sub is JBL 2241.
 
12-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 34
Post ID: 17624
Reply to: 17622
DEQX on horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
I tried a highly modded DEQX on my horns for some time, we did all the time alignment with it, we used 1st order and 4th order xovers and everything in between, we used LeCleach adjustment for bass and all the other drivers we had it sounding for some time untill we got the best sound we could get out of it, mainly following some of the LeCleach setting with different xover points, according to our system,  it sounded fine but something was not right.
One day we had a lot of audipophile friends over and one of them said, I liked it better with the ugly xover: a series xover arragned in a rat nest fashion with battery loaded caps that was gathering dust nearby,  It was quite simple to hook it up:  
Life came back to the system!  Instuments were breathing again, more detail, more dynamics more everything...
Just my experience:
Modded DEQX for sale, balanced to rca cables available!
12-29-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slack key
Hawaii
Posts 5
Joined on 12-28-2011

Post #: 35
Post ID: 17626
Reply to: 17624
Lesson learned
fiogf49gjkf0d

It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise.
I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup). 
I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

12-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 36
Post ID: 17627
Reply to: 17626
Crossover crossover rover
fiogf49gjkf0d
You need to find an individual who can design series crossovers. Both JBL and Altec used these, because they sounded best. You will need to look for an individual near where you live because they will have to test the drivers as the design progresses. You can of course utilize a parallel crossover, but a significant improvement in all categories will only come from a full series design. If you lived near Seattle I could put you in touch with a master.

Bud
12-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 17628
Reply to: 17626
Lesson learned? What Lesson?! Learned what?!
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Bud wrote:
You need to find an individual who can design series crossovers. Both JBL and Altec used these, because they sounded best. You will need to look for an individual near where you live because they will have to test the drivers as the design progresses. You can of course utilize a parallel crossover, but a significant improvement in all categories will only come from a full series design. If you lived near Seattle I could put you in touch with a master.
Bud, be careful with unequivocal advocating of series crossovers. JBL used some series and series/parallel ideas but only in inexpensive and non-ambition speakers. Not to mention that the fact the JBL and Altec used them means nothing.  It is not to say that some of JBL small monitors sound bad but it might or might not have anything to do with series crossovers. The series crossover is a controversial project, it works with one driver and does not work with others and it never was tested with horns. The biggest problem is the “slack key” mind-set to deal with all these subject. You know well that by implanting into his mind the empty phrase “series crossovers” you will open another round of slack’s internet milking. You can implant in his mind with the very same success the phrase “cold nuclear fusion” or “non-proliferation of Asian cypress beetles”

 slack key wrote:
It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise.
I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup). 
I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

Sorry, slack but your commentaries sound not like “lesson learned”. Why are your suddenly “90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound”? Because somebody in polite manner told you about their own negative experience with this specific brand of digital EQ. What do you know about those people, their playback and cultural objectives, their reference points? Did you asked any questions that would give you indication where they are coming from? Do you understand the reasons why they do not like it? I did not ask you if you rent DEQX for a day in your local pro shop and try it yourself – it would be too much to ask I guess… So, there were two random people who said to you “no-no” and you turned away.  I can give you another 23407 random people from the same internet who adore digital crossover and this playback systems are way more expensive and much “positively reviewed” then what Jorge or Adrian have. The point that I am trying to make is that so far your interest on the subject is so shallow and so artificial that the “lessons you learned” are not the lessons but the empty words that you just heard with your side hearing and for whatever reasons you decided to declare them as your “90% convictions”. I very much do not attack you personally as most of the idiots on internet would think. I just try to separate politeness to a person and a respect to the subject of the person’s interest. I do not defense or assault digital crossovers for you. But I do try to maintain the context at this site at certain level of reasons, the level that I do not see in your inquiry.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 38
Post ID: 17630
Reply to: 17628
Xovers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well a DEQX will cost you less than a set of good caps!  you can buy one and play around with it for a couple of months and see for yourself,  you will have fun anyway and thats what tis all about!  You will need and extra preamp and 3 different amps at least.

I said Series Xover because that is what we were using at the time, we later run more tests with parallel xover with the same xover points and same parts and same system, same drivers same horns and the differences between series and parrallel were small. IMHO.  It would all depend really how you want to run your amps, if your want just one amp for all your system and the impedance is droping too much for that amp, series will help, if you want to run maybe a couple of amps per side, parallel offers much more flexibility.

Designing a xover depends a lot on what drivers you are using, if it is inside a horn, the size and freq. cut off of the horn, what drivers are you crossing to, and ideally what amps will you be using, among a lot of other things, like your taste in music, how thick you like your sound or how detailed, you will find out on the way.  No dont get me wrong or make it personal, but asking somebody to design a xover for your specific system would be like asking somebody to fuck your wife in order to make you a beautiful baby!  And anyway he might just be in it for the fun and never reallly  take your needs in account....
When you buy a whole system, most of the design work has gone onto deciding what drivers to use with what xover points and what parts go into the xover, etc.  And finally it is designed to the designer taste, you might like what he likes or not, a close firend loves the sound of Avalon speakers but he goes for the original designer models only....  pick your poison!
12-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slack key
Hawaii
Posts 5
Joined on 12-28-2011

Post #: 39
Post ID: 17631
Reply to: 17628
Clairvoyance and the psyche
fiogf49gjkf0d
Let's see "series crossovers"... hmmm, very interesting.  Something to look into?  Where can I get more information?  Should I contact an audio tech to design one?  Can I send the current crossovers somewhere for evaluation or do I also have send the speakers and drivers?

Amazing!

Nail on the head.  My mind-set... yes, true what you say and predictable what I do.

I do jump the gun often.  It did cross my mind as to why several professional reviewers liked the DEQX... and for others, it didn't work out.  I tried a Copland TACT when it was offered through Divergent nearly two years ago.  There was better soundstage but the vocals and low level detail (e.g. the resonance of a sax, the lingering decay of the piano, the raspiness of Norah Jones or Cleo Lane) was minimized.    Anyway, the comments that I read in this forum swayed my mind and my conscience to say "90% convinced"... plus the fact that I never received any reply or acknowledgement after sending three emails to DEQX (I also read that others had difficulty getting information from them).... plus the fact that I would feel guilty spending $3k for the DEQX HD Express and software especially when Adrian with the same Edgarhorns, 2A3 amps and DEQX did some extensive trials over many months and concluded that it was not meant to be.  If DEQX offered a 30-day trial, one of the questions that I asked them, I would give it a try and find out for myself it it works for me or not.

Going back to my original inquiry about soundstage and imaging with horn speakers.
I know that speaker position and room acoustics are important.  I use a laser to align the speakers, room treatments, hallographs, crystals, ionizer, Z-sleeves, bybee filters, etc.  I also have power conditioners, installed dedicated electric panel with thick gauge copper wires.  I use high end cables throughout from power to interconnects to speakers.  
I still cannot get the soundstage and imaging that I admire with some systems that I heard at CES and Rocky Mountain. 
At the same time, I don't want to lose the "horn" sound.
Are there some hardware tweaks that I should try?
Simple ones first.
Or is position and acoustic treatment the only way with horn speakers?

 
12-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 40
Post ID: 17634
Reply to: 17631
EdgarHorn, 2A3, cables, wire, DEQX
fiogf49gjkf0d
 slack key wrote:
I know that speaker position and room acoustics are important.  I use a laser to align the speakers, room treatments, hallographs, crystals, ionizer, Z-sleeves, bybee filters, etc.  I also have power conditioners, installed dedicated electric panel with thick gauge copper wires.  I use high end cables throughout from power to interconnects to speakers.

Marc, I make everything myself, amplifiers, preamp, cables, etc. not because I especially enjoy it, but because what I want is not available. Stop using the laser to align your speakers. Use your ears.

Listening is the only way, because that is the final important result anyway isn't it. Everything else is a tool to help, but the bottom line is the Sound. Don't take what anyone says for gospel, including me, because listening is different for everyone. I have written about this topic a bit in the past if you dig up my old entries.

The simplest changes are sometimes the most profound. I make all my own cables and different cables for the different individual speakers. Here I mean different metal alloys and different gauge widths for each driver became necessary for the EdgarHorn. My experience changing the crossover was that it caused deterioration in the Sound, so I left it alone ultimately. 

The most important thing that will make the biggest difference will be to find DPOLS for your horns. And to do this you must abandon the laser and the measuring tape and trust your self.

Adrian
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 41
Post ID: 17636
Reply to: 17626
Edgarhorns and DEQX
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Jorge, Marc, Adrian, Romy et al,
First off, Jorge what's your asking price on the modified DEQX ? Which model is it ? Who did the mods and what are they ? I am very interested.
Adrian, as I recall you live in San Francisco. You are still welcome to visit and listen to my horns, I'd like to hear your setup as well. I am curious how your Edgarhorn system compares to mine. Anyone else who would like to hear a well implemented Edgarhorn system is also welcome to visit.
Marc, please surf the web for more information, there are many sophisticated systems that use DEQX processors. In my opinion conventional passive crossovers are not very good, multi-amping with line level passive filters is much better and multi-amping with a DEQX processor is better still. The new generation of processors is much better than earlier models. 
In my opinion compression super tweeters are not good. I use planar magnetic drivers ( but would love to own a pair of Raals like Romy's ). If you like you may email me privately for more info on mods etc..
Romy, you or another forum member may be interested in my S-2s ( one is in the mahogany box ) and K15-40s, I have 2 of each for sale in excellent original condition ( plus horns and crossovers, all from a pair of Canadian Vitavox Khorns ).
Happy New Year,
Kerry
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 42
Post ID: 17637
Reply to: 17631
Tweaks for horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
First and most important is time aligning the drivers, this will help a lot.
When you are finally done, realign again... ijijiijii

I would think you already have everything perfectly simmetrical to your listening position etc.
Toe in and all of that. pulling them from the back wall etc.

For imaging Horns like a big space, The best imaging I ever listened to was with horns.. not in my room sadly.

After that things become more difficult,  If you are multiamping, micro adjusting the volume level of each driver will do amazing things, really a powerful tool.
If you are not multiamping this will become  almost impossible,  you can say, adjust with an L-pad,   but my first reccomendation would be to get rid of all Lpads...
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 43
Post ID: 17638
Reply to: 17637
DCX not DEQX
fiogf49gjkf0d
My most humble apologies to DEQX and its users, what we tested was the Behringer DCX unit,  my mistake.
I never used a DEQX and have no current opinion on its performance.
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 17640
Reply to: 17636
A gravity defining illusion.
fiogf49gjkf0d

“Gravity, is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass”. Try to fuck with it!

 Kerry Brown wrote:
Marc, please surf the web for more information, there are many sophisticated systems that use DEQX processors.

There is none that I have seen. Each single “sophisticated system” that use digital crossovers that I have seen on Web was in fact stupidly designed system.

 Kerry Brown wrote:
In my opinion conventional passive crossovers are not very good, multi-amping with line level passive filters is much better and multi-amping with a DEQX processor is better still. The new generation of processors is much better than earlier models.

Kerry, and what problems are with “conventional passive crossovers” and why they are not good? Topologically digital can’t attenuate (it means to filter) and analog can’t delay.  This is the fundamental rule of the game, like gravity. BTW, it is not my discovery but something that was taught by the guy who design the most celebrated digital in the today world. So, I wonder how the "new generation of processors" defines the law of gravity?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 45
Post ID: 17642
Reply to: 17640
Romy don't get so worked up dude
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,
Always nice to correspond with you, thanks for your comments.
I used the term 'sophisticated' literally: so - phis - ti - cat - ed Adjective: 1. ( of a machine, system, or technique ) Developed to a high degree of complexity.
As do you, I prefer multi-way horns so most DEQX based systems are not interesting to me but most of them are definitely sophisticated.
Passive speakers level crossovers are not as good as line level passive... I think you explained why rather well in previous posts. 
We disagree, obviously on active crossovers but I am not alone in my thinking - and you know the theoretical ( at least ) advantages of active filtering very well.
Attenuate: at - ten - u - ate; Verb; Reduce the amplitude of ( a signal, electric current or other oscillation ). 
I don't understand when you say active crossovers don't attenuate. Mine does. Very well too, I can trim channels to match each other perfectly. And DEQX volume control is 'analog' = step ladder resistors. 
I am not qualified to defend active and or digital crossovers on technical grounds... but they work. Well. Very well.
Here are some links for you:

Why DEQX is good


http://goldenagemusic.mamutweb.com/Shop/Product/DEQX-HDP-Express-Black-front-panel/6301012


Why active crossovers are good


http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm


Acoustic Zen Micro


http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/ma16.htm 


Tikandi Speaker System


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/two-channel-speakers/695-legend-acoustics-tikandi-loudspeaker-system-with-deqx-hdp-3-processing.html


SonicWeld PulseRod


http://www.sonicweld.com/pulserod.html


Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System


http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/overkill/encore.html


My system


Wasatch Acoustics MUSINA system


http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=36436


Tikandi System with HDP3 review


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/deqx.htm


Similar processors are used in other systems including the Linkwitz open baffle speakers


http://www.linkwitzlab.com/


Lotus Group Granada ( maybe the best show sound I have heard and why I changed my mind about "full range" speakers)


http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Granada.htm


Emerald Physics


http://www.6moons.com/showcase/underwoodhifi/underwoodhifi.html




12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 17643
Reply to: 17642
I think you are confided.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Kerry Brown wrote:
I don't understand when you say active crossovers don't attenuate. Mine does. Very well too, I can trim channels to match each other perfectly. And DEQX volume control is 'analog' = step ladder resistors. 
  
I am not sure why you are talking about active crossovers. There was no conversion about active crossovers. We were talking about digital crossovers not just analog crossover with active stages.

 Kerry Brown wrote:
I am not qualified to defend active and or digital crossovers on technical grounds...
  
I am qualified, ether in technical or in auditable aspects. Do not listen me. Take any digital file that juts went from A/D and than with any DIGITAL tool in your deposal reduce volume of the file for 1dB. Listen the result. If you do not hear the difference then you do not know what you are listening, there is nothing wrong with it, you are blessed, enjoy your life. After all there are people who do not recognize differences between speedcook ovens and conventional ovens, between infrared saunas and Finnish saunas, between fresh dill and dill mead from fructose sucrose glucose and gasoline. Be advised that filtration is just frequency-desponding attenuation…
 
Thanks for the links. I have interests to into them. They are undoubtedly written by idiots who trade digital toys and for idiots who have ass between ears.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 47
Post ID: 17644
Reply to: 17643
Whatever
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
Thanks for your kind remarks but the proof of the cook is in the pudding, if you are ever on the west coast  you should drop by and have a taste. 
I doubt whether I will ever get to Boston, don't travel much, but I'd be interested in listening to your speakers, I'm sure they sound great. Especially after you ditched the EV T-350s.
Besides that, I must ask... is there one speaker system you've heard that you like very much ? Besides yours ?
Is there one audio reviewer, manufacturer or expert opinion that you completely agree with ?
Hope you have a bitchin' 2012 bro.
K
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 17645
Reply to: 17644
Yes, the LA is the country of horns…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Kerry Brown wrote:
Thanks for your kind remarks but the proof of the cook is in the pudding, if you are ever on the west coast you should drop by and have a taste.

Sure, if I go to SF then I might visit you, in fact there are quite a few places in SF that I might go. Do not expect however that any proof might be in any pudding with it and not only because I know how your inhalation sounds.  The proof of inferiority of D-crossovers is in fact that people with diminished reference points do sport them. The completely idiotic articles and completely barbaric acoustic systems that you brought up as “evidences” most likely just prove of it and I do know who what kind people has a needs to patronize the DSP crossovers. Kerry, do not take my reply as attack against you personally as many online idiots would consider. I do attack your standing on the subject and your judgments; I still live room that you are a good TV viewer, fine eater, good voter and considerate pedestrian….
 Kerry Brown wrote:
Besides that, I must ask... is there one speaker system you've heard that you like very much ? Besides yours ?

I am not convinced that you understand how complicated the question you ask. Probably the next question will be with the same level of seriousness about the color of my underwear.
 Kerry Brown wrote:
Is there one audio reviewer, manufacturer or expert opinion that you completely agree with?

Yes, the next question WAS about the color of my underwear. Well, I am passed the level of my audio development when I need to agree with anybody or even answer those questions. Let keep the thread focus on the crossover, regardless not much superficial it became, and let keep the pop media interviews out of picture.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kerry Brown
Posts 23
Joined on 03-22-2005

Post #: 49
Post ID: 17646
Reply to: 17645
Hardy har har
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yup, that's me alright, a "confided" ( whatever that means ) fine eater, good TV viewer, good voter and considerate pedestrian with his butt between his ears. 
Hilarious material from the Don Rickles of the Audio world.
I dub thee Romy The Bad Dog... cats are relaxed, mellow, bad dogs are aggressively defensive.
Peace Out Homes,
KB


12-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 50
Post ID: 17647
Reply to: 17636
EdgarHorn system
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Kerry Brown wrote:
Adrian, as I recall you live in San Francisco. You are still welcome to visit and listen to my horns, I'd like to hear your setup as well. I am curious how your Edgarhorn system compares to mine. Anyone else who would like to hear a well implemented Edgarhorn system is also welcome to visit.
Kerry, I would love to come by when it is convenient for you and listen to your horn set-up, and if you do not mind I would probably report about it here for the benefit of those who live further away. Please contact me and we can set up a time.

I suspect that if I listen to your system or if you listen to mine, we may find we both still prefer our own systems. I have said many times before that I believe all people truly hear differently, just all everyone has different shaped faces and different sensitivity to  hot chili peppers and some people are even color blind but there is probably more subtle variation we never have examined. You and I surely listen for different things in stereo and we must adjust different parameters to make the stereo sound more like what YOU or I hear as live sound -- and it is different for each of us. 

Is it true that the words "neutral" and "dynamic" and "inner detail" have importance for you? My experience with digital equalization and alignment makes me think they might, as this seems to be its strength?

In any regard, I look forward to hearing from you.

Adrian
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