drdna wrote:

I have found the next obvious glaring problem, which is contributing to the muddy sound I described earlier.  There is a mismatch between the two channels.  The right channel is very slightly softer than the left with a very slight change in the sound like it is vaguely from an old-fashioned radio, but very subtle.  I tested this by listening with a mono signal to each channel one at a time.  I can tell this from anywhere I stand, far away or with my ear right next to the speakers (so I do not think this is a room acoustics effect). I found that the same signal from the same RCA output on the preamplifier through the same wire would make this different sound going to the right amplifier and speaker than going to the left amplifier and speaker. So I switched the amplifiers and there was no difference. Then I switched the speaker cable and there was no difference. Then I switched the speakers and there was still no difference. Then I became very confused and decided to see if you have any sugestions?

The line level devised usesly more or less stable and mostly likely the deviation of gain in power amplifier usesly the problems. Another common problem is that the crossovers in right and the left channel are not bult identically…. Still you clamed that you switched speakers and amplifiers and did not detect any differents… Well, if I would knot how exactly the problem of “softness” manifest itself perhaps I might suggest something. Meanwhile, I have seen before how the specific magnetic fields might quite adhesively after what speakers do. I do not know the EdgarHorns crossover. I do not think they should be “serious” and I doubt that he tune then individually for each driver type. Still in his upper bass horn he most likely used a coil to low pass the channel. Most likely he use a second order with tweeter, which would demand coils. The make the EdgarHorns having 4 coils (+ MF and HF voice coils). During the operation of the drivers, and particularly of the air core coils were use in crossovers and if the speaker sit in a magnetic filed, the inductance of the drivers, coils talks to each other and produce quite auditable results…. Do not forget that you are in high sensitively work and with 110dB you have why should be able to pick your local AM station on your coils if you position them properly….

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive…

Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence…

Rgs,
The caT

Romy the Cat wrote:

A few years ago I use 3 and something Henrys air-core coil made up with… 8ga wire. It was a barrel of cupper that acted like a sponge for any airborne dirt. I have in one side of my room (what right speaker lives) something that I called “Area 51”. At tie location (approximately 3’x3’) any coil suck in EMI from air with a force of a mid size back hole. If I positioned the coil in there then by changing the angle of the coil I was able to change sound quite tangibly. I did not measure the Gausses in there but I know what was going on and I ended up building sarcophagus for the right speakers crossover. I used CO-NETIC alloys for that reportedly has magnetic shielding 800 times stronger then steal of the same thickens. It worked very nice with exception that all of those Magnetic Shield Corporation’s products are quite expansive… Well, something suggests me that you might have the very same problem. In fact may people with high sensitively drivers have then but not a lot of them have ability to understand or detect it as thier noisy and dirtily electronics mask out the effect of environmental magnetic influence… Rgs, The caT

I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.  I read some reviews from the DEQX website and sent them an email but still waiting for more information.  Will the DEQX help or is soundstage and imaging an inherrent problem with horn speakers?
I recently listened to Magnepan's 1.7's and the soundstage and imaging were quite apparent compared to the Edgarhorns.  You are surrounded by the music whereas with the horn speakers this effect is somewhat achieved only with near-field listening.
The current model DEQX HD Express and Reference Calibration Kit is nearly $3k plus it is my understanding that if you want the DEQX to do the crossovers I would need separate amps for each driver.  This will complicate the setup with way too much equipment.
Are there any mods (for the speakers) that I should look into before going the DEQX route?
Thanks,
Marc 

Thanks, Scooter.
I am glad to hear from someone so quickly.
I've been an "audiophile" for only 10 years or so.  With the Edgarhorns, I am currently using a Cyrus Brenneman integrated amp (KT100).  I also have a Yamamoto custom 2A3 (single plates) which I also like.
As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.
Marc

slack key wrote:

As for audio problems, you are correct, I really have to sit back and think about what to do.  Sure I want to improve what is now lacking.... soundstage, imaging and depth.  As for the sound, of course, I like the sound of horns but I have to sit in a precise spot (i.e not move my head) to get decent soundstage and imaging. Can I afford to spend more time and money to experiment with crossovers, digital EQ and other voodoo components (Z sleeves, ionizer, crystals, sound traps, super tweeters, Be diaphragms, Bybee filters, silver fuses, etc.... I have these) or have I reached the point where I should move back to solid state and Magnepan 3.7's.  I want to keep things simple.  I will search this site for more information (about digital EQ and other avenues related to horn speakers) and hope to gain some insight as to how far I want to take this.

You will not find any useful information about digital EQ at this site. If you would like to play stupid games with DSP phase faking in order to get “more stereo” than you can bit it has nothing to do with digital EQ. BTW, digital EQ is not “other avenues related to horn speakers” but rather the refuge of horn speaker’s bottom eaters.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=775#775

slack key wrote:

I am interested to find out more information about how DEQX will help solve my issues with getting better soundstage, imaging and depth with the Edgarhorn Titans.

It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise.
I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup). 
I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

Bud wrote:

You need to find an individual who can design series crossovers. Both JBL and Altec used these, because they sounded best. You will need to look for an individual near where you live because they will have to test the drivers as the design progresses. You can of course utilize a parallel crossover, but a significant improvement in all categories will only come from a full series design. If you lived near Seattle I could put you in touch with a master.

slack key wrote:

It is wonderful how these forums work and how it's members provide the feedback and comments from their experiences and expertise. I am 90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound that I am looking for with the Edgarhorns.  If it does to some degree it will probably degrade or even kill the "horn" sound (that disappeared in Jorge's DEQX setup).  I think it's about time that I check the crossovers in my speakers... to make sure they are correct.  They sound ok to me but may be confusing to someone with keen hearing.  I remember I was told to disconnect a capacitor to the tweeter when I changed from the Fane to JBL 075's.  Does anyone know of a stereo engineer that can propose a schematic crossover design for the drivers that is being used?  Am I making any sense?

Sorry, slack but your commentaries sound not like “lesson learned”. Why are your suddenly “90% convinced that the DEQX will not provide the magic spatial sound”? Because somebody in polite manner told you about their own negative experience with this specific brand of digital EQ. What do you know about those people, their playback and cultural objectives, their reference points? Did you asked any questions that would give you indication where they are coming from? Do you understand the reasons why they do not like it? I did not ask you if you rent DEQX for a day in your local pro shop and try it yourself – it would be too much to ask I guess… So, there were two random people who said to you “no-no” and you turned away.  I can give you another 23407 random people from the same internet who adore digital crossover and this playback systems are way more expensive and much “positively reviewed” then what Jorge or Adrian have. The point that I am trying to make is that so far your interest on the subject is so shallow and so artificial that the “lessons you learned” are not the lessons but the empty words that you just heard with your side hearing and for whatever reasons you decided to declare them as your “90% convictions”. I very much do not attack you personally as most of the idiots on internet would think. I just try to separate politeness to a person and a respect to the subject of the person’s interest. I do not defense or assault digital crossovers for you. But I do try to maintain the context at this site at certain level of reasons, the level that I do not see in your inquiry.

slack key wrote:

I know that speaker position and room acoustics are important.  I use a laser to align the speakers, room treatments, hallographs, crystals, ionizer, Z-sleeves, bybee filters, etc.  I also have power conditioners, installed dedicated electric panel with thick gauge copper wires.  I use high end cables throughout from power to interconnects to speakers.

“Gravity, is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass”. Try to fuck with it!

Kerry Brown wrote:

Marc, please surf the web for more information, there are many sophisticated systems that use DEQX processors.

There is none that I have seen. Each single “sophisticated system” that use digital crossovers that I have seen on Web was in fact stupidly designed system.

Kerry Brown wrote:

In my opinion conventional passive crossovers are not very good, multi-amping with line level passive filters is much better and multi-amping with a DEQX processor is better still. The new generation of processors is much better than earlier models.

Kerry, and what problems are with “conventional passive crossovers” and why they are not good? Topologically digital can’t attenuate (it means to filter) and analog can’t delay.  This is the fundamental rule of the game, like gravity. BTW, it is not my discovery but something that was taught by the guy who design the most celebrated digital in the today world. So, I wonder how the "new generation of processors" defines the law of gravity?

Why DEQX is good

http://goldenagemusic.mamutweb.com/Shop/Product/DEQX-HDP-Express-Black-front-panel/6301012

Why active crossovers are good

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

Acoustic Zen Micro

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/ma16.htm 

Tikandi Speaker System

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/two-channel-speakers/695-legend-acoustics-tikandi-loudspeaker-system-with-deqx-hdp-3-processing.html

SonicWeld PulseRod

http://www.sonicweld.com/pulserod.html

Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/overkill/encore.html

My system

Wasatch Acoustics MUSINA system

http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=36436

Tikandi System with HDP3 review

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/deqx.htm

Similar processors are used in other systems including the Linkwitz open baffle speakers

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

Lotus Group Granada ( maybe the best show sound I have heard and why I changed my mind about "full range" speakers)

http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Granada.htm

Emerald Physics

http://www.6moons.com/showcase/underwoodhifi/underwoodhifi.html

Kerry Brown wrote:

I don't understand when you say active crossovers don't attenuate. Mine does. Very well too, I can trim channels to match each other perfectly. And DEQX volume control is 'analog' = step ladder resistors.

Kerry Brown wrote:

I am not qualified to defend active and or digital crossovers on technical grounds...

Kerry Brown wrote:

Thanks for your kind remarks but the proof of the cook is in the pudding, if you are ever on the west coast you should drop by and have a taste.

Kerry Brown wrote:

Besides that, I must ask... is there one speaker system you've heard that you like very much ? Besides yours ?

Kerry Brown wrote:

Is there one audio reviewer, manufacturer or expert opinion that you completely agree with?

Kerry Brown wrote:

Adrian, as I recall you live in San Francisco. You are still welcome to visit and listen to my horns, I'd like to hear your setup as well. I am curious how your Edgarhorn system compares to mine. Anyone else who would like to hear a well implemented Edgarhorn system is also welcome to visit.