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06-17-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	26
Post ID:	18303
Reply to:	18301

Sorry for your allergy

Ok, Andrew, this is allergy something. I would highly advise you in future before you post any discrete updates, questions, and ideas about what you to inform about the holistic objective of your project, sort of a view from 50.000 feet. That what I meant when I asked "what you do?"

Sorry…I had trouble understanding the expression. I trust your allergy gets better…perhaps too much pollen in the air.

About your project. I would encourage you to look for different location for your playback. The 6 feet is not the width where you will be able to host your inhalation of this topology as it will be underperform. Sure we all restricted by space but if you can find different location in your room them you might want to consider it.

I want to inhale the best audio possible…so I’ll look at what I can do in the house. Unfortunately, the family room is the largest I have….plus, it opens to the dining area…and I like to have playback in an open space, not a closed in room with one door. (I think you said you like this also on a post I read on your site). My only other possible option is the lounge room, which is a closed off room with one door, approx 14 x 16 feet (with tallish ceiling of 10.5 foot.)

So, the midbass rectangular horns are 100 to 500Hz. The lower MF horn from 500 to 5000 and the small horn cover from 5000 and up - let call it HF channel. The idea looks OK but the positioning of it very bad. If you have MF run to 5K and HF start in 5K then you shall not introduce any horizontal offset as it such high frequency you'll have a! lot of imaging smearing. I would very much advise to use the MF and HF horns in strictly vertical configuration. It might be a bit tricky in your case. You can drop you MF horn all the way down to upperbass and put HF above or you can locate the HF under the MF. In your configuration both will work but it would require some sensibility to do it in order to maintain the center image in right spot. I need more information to estimate HOW it might be done. The rate of the horns or the diameter of the mouths, the type of the drivers, the listening distance, the type of the crossovers, the high of midbass horn, the music you will be playing, the proximity to the back wall, the space behind your listening chair and etc.

To your questions/points:

Vertical alignment. No problem…I just drew that drawing quickly…with no specific layout in mind. I’m OK with placing the MF horn on top of the Mid Bass. This will make the MF horn approx ear level….not that I go by that rule…preferring a ‘taller’ presentation of sound.

As previously posted -

MF Horns: The diameter of the mouth is 45cm, horn length 40cm (spheric wave tractrix) from Stereolabs Germany.
http://www.stereo-lab.de/EN/spheric-wave-tractrix-horns/cut-off-frequency/cf250hz/sl250-20-cf250hz-spherical-wave-tractrix-horn.html

HF Horn is 1000Hz Stereolabs, 12cm diameter, 6cm length.
http://www.stereo-lab.de/EN/spheric-wave-tractrix-horns/cut-off-frequency/1000hz/sl1000-10-cf1000hz-spheric-wave-tractrix-horn.html

MF Drivers: Selenium 2-inch D405
http://www.critesspeakers.com/D405.pdf

HF driver is Selenium D220Ti
http://www.critesspeakers.com/D220Ti.pdf

Listening distance: 19.5 foot.

Crossover: Essentially to be decided. I have two temporary approached. Bob Crites has prepared a three-way crossover based on the two Selenium drivers (which he uses for his Klipsch re-builds). Once I get the new three-pairs of amps (two SET, one push-pull for the Mid Bass), I will experiment with electronic (eg mini DSP - yes, I know your views on this!) to guage the best cross-over points, time delay etc. Then I will invest in a quality analogue xover. Note – the new three amps will all have separate volume control, with one of the amps driving a master volume control. I am yet to decide on amp for the sub bass for the two 30Hz tapped horns.

Why 500/5000 cross over points? I selected this range for a couple of reasons. As I outlined in an earlier post, I had enjoyed the Bob Crites two-way (Klipsch) Corsncala horns. These crossed over at 500Hz. I knew that I wanted compression drivers for the critical 500+ listening range…so I stayed with that x-over point. I then thought of adding the HF horn to provider a better high end frequency…even though the two-way I was listening to with 1.4 inch Faital Pro drivers extended quite well to 16,000/17,000Hz. However, I knew that they were not operating as intended. The other reason for this xover mix is to take advantage of a DIY approach to the mid bass horns. I did not have the funds to buy a large sub bass horn…so I needed to build something with moderate size that would easily cover the 100 to 500 range OK. Also, because of costs and ‘simplicity,’ I opted for two round horns only to cater for the MF and HF. Of course, if money was no object, and I had engineering skills to build complex xovers, I would probably have opted for more horns. However, there’s also an argument to try and keep things relatively simple…and remember, this is my first front loaded horn system.

Midbass horn: The height is per the width, 23 inches.

Music: I enjoy a range of music…mostly I enjoy jazz, blues, funk, with mid-range rock (Clapton etc). I enjoy female vocals, eg Eva Cassidy. I don’t like heavy metal, rap etc. I enjoy classical, but I don’t have many recordings.

Proximity to back wall: my listening position is about 1 meter from the back wall.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards.

Andrew

06-18-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	27
Post ID:	18305
Reply to:	18303

Too early...

atilsley169 wrote:
Sorry…I had trouble understanding the expression. I trust your allergy gets better…perhaps too much pollen in the air.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

atilsley169 wrote:
Vertical alignment. No problem…I just drew that drawing quickly…with no specific layout in mind. I’m OK with placing the MF horn on top of the Mid Bass….

I am a bit disappointed that your ask me question investing “no specific layout in mind” or with spending time to do your own home work. Andrew, I am not a first echelon of thinkers about playback. Form your own ideas, test them, improve upon them, develop own references and own tailored objective in acoustic system. Then if you have questions you might ask then but I assure you that they will be in very different format and with much more settled fashion. At this point you do not know what you asking and you do not know what you feel you understand in the answers. Your comment ” I’m OK with placing the MF horn on top of the Mid Bass” is kind of indication that you do not know what it means and what it will result. Please, do not feel to be offended, it is NOT my intention. Still, I do feel that it is a bit too early for you to talk with me about Sound.

atilsley169 wrote:
I enjoy a range of music…mostly I enjoy jazz, blues, funk, with mid-range rock (Clapton etc). I enjoy female vocals, eg Eva Cassidy. I don’t like heavy metal, rap etc. I enjoy classical, but I don’t have many recordings.

Yes, it is too early for you to talk with me about Sound or perhaps I am not qualified to talk with you about Sound. The music you play in my view require no advanced audio affords.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-18-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	28
Post ID:	18306
Reply to:	18305

I'm sorry I can't meet your loft standard

Romy

I'm sorry my humble project doesn't meet your lofty standards. I'm reminded of the model who was famous for saying, "I don't get out of bed for under $10,000 a day."

I would have though that this 'from-scratch' multi horn project would have been a great opportunity for you to engage...and to help in its creation. I fully accept I am the student....but you are positioning yourself as rairiefied deity who will only engage if/when he chooses.

That's a pity.

You highlighted my comment re placement of tweeter above/below the MF horn. Yet, I see a number of commercial horn projects around the globe that have different configurations in this regard. So, it's little use saying I need to research this...when there are so many different options. I was asking YOU and your forum buddies (hopefully there are some who've achieved the right standard to be accepted by you) for general advice.

And at the end of the day...it's about enjoyment of the build and engaging...offering ideas here and there.

Are you genuinely saying your web site is not set up to offer this type of help....?

Kind regards.

Andrew

06-19-2012

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	29
Post ID:	18307
Reply to:	18306

Forum buddies?

Andrew you got to read the site, get into it, there is a lot of useful information regarding excactly the project you are going into, is there any difference if the threads are addressed to you or someone else? Most of them are Romys own learning experience and how and why he did it this way, you can agree on them or not but most things do have a clear explanation.
The Knowledge Tree is perfectly organized by themes: you need to go to the Acoustic system and listening room (speakers are really tied to the room they are sounding in, dont you think?) Horn Loaded and voila: Once you read it and experiment a little with your own horns, it would be great to hear your impressions on it... The most important opinions are the ones coming from your own listening impressions in your room, and really the most important for you.

Now about your last question, IMHO there are a lot of horn projects which are just a bunch of horns put toghether with no intention, just piled up really in the simplest manner enough to cover the listenable range and that is it, no furhter thought on it, some are even commercial configurations: There has been a lot of discussion here about Time alignement for example, which proposes that all sound waves should start at the same distance from the listening spot, so if you want a time aligned system a lot of things change and piled up horns wont work anymore... But instead of talking about time alignment, it is good to listen to a system that is or try to arrange your system like that, maybe it is already time aligned, so what differences do you hear? Watching a picture of the setup one can tell if it is time aligned, but how it will sound, one cannot. So your impressions on what you are trying to achieve and the intention on your setup is important. Avantgarde trios are not time aligned for example, they also got big plastic horns that can resonate and polute the sound, I dont know the Stereolab horns you plan to use, are they plastic? Usually round is better than square, but square is better than 15 inch woofers in a box doing 500hz!
Again there is a very long post on Upper bass horns you can read, full of explanations, you might agree or not, but the explanations are there, a few friends who read it got insulted in the first few lines because their own system was depicted, I was laughing like crazy! After you read this you will notice grammar is not so important. I think what Romy meant instead of allergy was already BTW. I hate autocorrectors anyway!

Gday mate!

06-19-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	30
Post ID:	18308
Reply to:	18307

Thanks Jorge...I fee the love

Jorge wrote:
Andrew you got to read the site, get into it, there is a lot of useful information regarding excactly the project you are going into, is there any difference if the threads are addressed to you or someone else? Most of them are Romys own learning experience and how and why he did it this way, you can agree on them or not but most things do have a clear explanation.
The Knowledge Tree is perfectly organized by themes: you need to go to the Acoustic system and listening room (speakers are really tied to the room they are sounding in, dont you think?) Horn Loaded and voila: Once you read it and experiment a little with your own horns, it would be great to hear your impressions on it... The most important opinions are the ones coming from your own listening impressions in your room, and really the most important for you.

Now about your last question, IMHO there are a lot of horn projects which are just a bunch of horns put toghether with no intention, just piled up really in the simplest manner enough to cover the listenable range and that is it, no furhter thought on it, some are even commercial configurations: There has been a lot of discussion here about Time alignement for example, which proposes that all sound waves should start at the same distance from the listening spot, so if you want a time aligned system a lot of things change and piled up horns wont work anymore... But instead of talking about time alignment, it is good to listen to a system that is or try to arrange your system like that, maybe it is already time aligned, so what differences do you hear? Watching a picture of the setup one can tell if it is time aligned, but how it will sound, one cannot. So your impressions on what you are trying to achieve and the intention on your setup is important. Avantgarde trios are not time aligned for example, they also got big plastic horns that can resonate and polute the sound, I dont know the Stereolab horns you plan to use, are they plastic? Usually round is better than square, but square is better than 15 inch woofers in a box doing 500hz!
Again there is a very long post on Upper bass horns you can read, full of explanations, you might agree or not, but the explanations are there, a few friends who read it got insulted in the first few lines because their own system was depicted, I was laughing like crazy! After you read this you will notice grammar is not so important. I think what Romy meant instead of allergy was already BTW. I hate autocorrectors anyway!

Gday mate!

G'day Jorge

Thanks for your post. I 'sort of' understand.

If the site is just a repository fine.....I just thought these types of forum are where people ENGAGE. There's dozens of online libraries out there about time alignment, room size, bass traps etc. Does Romy not acknowledge that people have different learning approaches? If young Karate Kid is getting lessons from the Grand Master...does the Master just yell at the kid and tell him to traing/learn himself...and come back in 2 years with an update...then the Master waves some special 'hi end' magic dust over his learning/playback to fix everything?

The thing I that I (foolishly) thought, was that I'm building a new system....and given the drawings, horns, drivers etc....COLLECTIVELY, how could people coach me through the build. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Then, Romy makes some dumb ass comment re music choice...suggesting that Eric Clapton etc isn't really needed to be listened to through horns...so he wouldn't bother to engage. Really. I listen to all sorts of music....so I want a really good play-back system. What I listen to today, will be different in 6 months time....and I also like to listen to the a good playback system with DVD for the occassional live music concert/DVD. If I prattled on about O Fortuna from Carmina Burana, by Carl Orff, or Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in C-sharp minor, by Franz Liszt, or Sous le dôme épais (Flower Duet) from Lakme, by Delibes etc, Romy probably would have got aroused.

As to the Stereolabs horns, these are made of composite stone. I was very close to wood turning my own horns using layers of MDF...similar to Romy's bass horn....but opted for a ready built product. I may still build a large round horn one day....we'll see.

Kind regards.

The Andrew

06-19-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	18309
Reply to:	18306

My constitutional rights?

Yes, it was not “allergy” but already, the benefit of the automated check speller but it is not the point.

It is not about lofty standards. This web site is not about offering help or imposing help. I do not mind to help people and I do it extensively if I recognize that there is a potential in the system’s owner or the installation to be sensible. Anything, absolutely anything you do in audio will produce Sound, so why you are building something special? I do not think you have answer to this question for yourself and placement of tweeters above or below the MF horns will not rectify it. That was all that I got from your questions. There are plenty site out there who would be happy to offer you advise about cutting wood, screwing in drivers and turning horns. It is not that I am footballing you to another forum but I do feel that at this time other sites might be more effective to you, I do not know it will be more useful but it will be for sure address what you are looking to get from on-line interaction. Andrew, please, do not take it personally, I am sure you are a great guy and if we meet I would buy you bear. However, your interest/understanding of audio, as they are now, do not attract me to much. You for sure might post whatever you wish but unless you express/ask anything that I feel “interesting” I would prefer do not engage it. I hope I am in my constitutional rights to do so.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-19-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	32
Post ID:	18311
Reply to:	18309

Your rights are maintained

Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, it was not “allergy” but already, the benefit of the automated check speller but it is not the point.

It is not about lofty standards. This web site is not about offering help or imposing help. I do not mind to help people and I do it extensively if I recognize that there is a potential in the system’s owner or the installation to be sensible. Anything, absolutely anything you do in audio will produce Sound, so why you are building something special? I do not think you have answer to this question for yourself and placement of tweeters above or below the MF horns will not rectify it. That was all that I got from your questions. There are plenty site out there who would be happy to offer you advise about cutting wood, screwing in drivers and turning horns. It is not that I am footballing you to another forum but I do feel that at this time other sites might be more effective to you, I do not know it will be more useful but it will be for sure address what you are looking to get from on-line interaction. Andrew, please, do not take it personally, I am sure you are a great guy and if we meet I would buy you bear. However, your interest/understanding of audio, as they are now, do not attract me to much. You for sure might post whatever you wish but unless you express/ask anything that I feel “interesting” I would prefer do not engage it. I hope I am in my constitutional rights to do so.

Thanks Roman...don't worry about your rights...they're protected...after all, it's your web site!!!
I'll defer further posts from now...as I now understand your site is more geared to finished or more high end systems.
I'll try again to articulate why I'm doing what I'm doing....as you have asked.
I've had lots of speakers over a 20 year or so period. I like changing things around. I also like building things. With that as a back drop, I though I'd like to have a pplayback system that offered a lot more than what standard woofers and tweeters and boxes could provide. The various horn systems I have listened to offered 'big' sound stage, excellent dynamics, attack, scale, capacity to excel at micro detail. I found the music sounded more like live music. This is the PRIMARY reason for my quest. My SECONDARY reasons are two fold. 1. I like DIY to some extent. and 2. I like the look of the horns in my large room.
So, that's all I can say. I'm sorry if I do not have the right technical words to say to you.
I have good ears for music, as I am a piano player and singer....so when I hear a good system, I say, yes...that sounds clear and good...I want that.
The system I have outlined in this thread is a VERY economical approach to achieving a 'basic' introduction to a multiple horn playback system. All up, probably US$4,000. For me to get anything like the sound of this out of a standard 2 or 3 way driver/box system would not be possible. So, I am happy with the path I am on. Also, the path is very scalable...as I would like to consider alternate drivers as funds allow, eg S2's, GOTO or even field-coil. For me, the journey is equal/better/fun than the end point.
I trust this makes sense to you.
Kind regards and thanks for your understanding.
PS (I would also buy you a drink if you visited lovely Sydney...but I'd buy you a beer, not a bear.....maybe a Koala Bear...!?) Do you ever travel this way...?
Andrew

06-19-2012

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	33
Post ID:	18312
Reply to:	18311

Drivers

Andrew,
Dont buy all the drivers at once, I would get only the upper bass horn drivers and maybe the mid drivers, you will have to play around with these for a while before things start clicking toghether, by then who knows, maybe you will think to get better midrange drivers instead of going for the tweeters, maybe you saved up a bt and can afford better tweeters. Putting them all toghether at once will mask evident problems you may run into.

kind rgds

06-20-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	34
Post ID:	18313
Reply to:	18312

Thanks Jorge - drivers are already sourced

Jorge wrote:
Andrew,
Dont buy all the drivers at once, I would get only the upper bass horn drivers and maybe the mid drivers, you will have to play around with these for a while before things start clicking toghether, by then who knows, maybe you will think to get better midrange drivers instead of going for the tweeters, maybe you saved up a bt and can afford better tweeters. Putting them all toghether at once will mask evident problems you may run into.

kind rgds

Thanks Jorge...but I have all the drivers already. The mid and HF have been very well assessed via years of work on the Klipsch projects with Bob Crites and others...I have confidence in that.

06-28-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	35
Post ID:	18339
Reply to:	18313

Pics of new blue horns

Here are the horns painted...soon to leave Germany for Oz.

07-08-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	36
Post ID:	18369
Reply to:	18339

Pic of mid bass horns laying on side

Here's how I will initially position the mid bass horns. The imaging is excellent....though I give a little away in dynamics. The 12-inch B&C drivers kill the puny 8-inch Fane drivers for this application. Well done John Inlow for this design. I can see this design walking all over the Avant Garde Trio's. Andrew

07-19-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	37
Post ID:	18416
Reply to:	18369

Pics of new stone blue horns...sound and look FANTASTIC.

the blue horns arrived today....and they're all hooked up and sounding..............FANTASTIC.......!!!!!!

In 10 years of DIY audio, there's a few moments of sheer joy....tonight was one.

Will muck around with placement of horns....and I have to build a frame...and possibly redirect the mid bass units to fire directly into the room. Integration of mid-bass is already very good.

But first impressions are wonderful....the sound is BIG...detailed, nuanced...no colouration. I'm totally stoked. My friend's $45,000 AG Trio's sound no better....and I haven;t even hooked up the bass horns.

I'm also very lucky that the Bob Crites 500/5,000 xover has worked out to perfection. The balance is very good indeed.

Now, I'll start my tapped horns.

I also love the colour and finish of the horns...sort of industrial looking...with a textured, satin finish.

The Selenium drivers rock...wonderful detail and attack. Not sure if they need run-in though.

More to follow.
Andrwe

07-19-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	38
Post ID:	18417
Reply to:	18416

More pics of stone blue horns

More pics

07-19-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	39
Post ID:	18418
Reply to:	18417

More pics of blue stone horns

more pics
(How do I add multiple pics...?)

07-20-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	40
Post ID:	18429
Reply to:	18418

Why this system is better than Avantgarde Trio

Running in drivers...and the sound is getting better and better...just lovely.
This weekend, I'll relocate my mid bass horns to fire directly out to the room. The angled baffles work very well for integration of sound with the mid horns...but I'll get more attack with the different placement.
I need to start the 30Hz tapped horns soon. These are based on the Volvotreter design.
ALso, need to get onto the stands...most likely these will be custom steel units, with mottled satin black paintwork.
My mate's $45,000 Trio's sound no better, and cost 8 times more.

07-21-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	41
Post ID:	18430
Reply to:	18429

Pics of mid-bass now firing into room, with stone blue horns on top

Getting there...

07-28-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	42
Post ID:	18453
Reply to:	18430

Pic of new 30Hz tapped horn

Sitting here enjoying a Miller Genuine Draft (with slice of lemon!).
Today, spent a lazy 2 hours building the new 30Hz Tapped Horn sub. Oh so easy. All panels pre-cut by supplier...just drew them up, glued and clamped. Tomorrow I'll seal all inner joins, then glue final side panel. Driver is 6.5 inch (yes, 6.5 inches), Tangbang.

Design is Volvotreter.
http://www.volvotreter.de/th.htm

I'll run a 100-watt plate amp, for 30Hz to 95Hz to cross over to the mids.

Down the track, I'll probably add another sub the same.
Earlier, I built the massive 18Hz TH sub...but not sure if I need to do that again for this 4-way horn rig...then again!
Andrew

07-29-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	43
Post ID:	18459
Reply to:	18453

30Hz sub horn now up and running - excellent

Finished, and very impressed with the output of this small tapped horn.

Running simple RCA piggy backs from valve amp output to plate amp, which is Digitech (JayCar), 100-watt. simple enough, nothing fancy. Would like to integrate the volume of the plate amp with the main amp though.

I'll lay the sub flat under the left mid-bass horn, and fire it into the corner. I'll build up the right mid-bass horn to the same height...or build another bass sub.
Once all tested, then I'll paint up the cabinets to match room decor.

07-29-2012

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atilsley169
Sydney
Posts 41
Joined on 06-07-2012

Post #:	44
Post ID:	18461
Reply to:	18459

Pic of tapped horn now placed under mid bass horns

Bass horn sub now fitted underneath, with false shelf added for the righ hand side mid bass horn.
The extra height is good....90cm to floor for tweeter, 110cm for the mid horn.
Just a nice BIG wall of sound...with excellent integration.
Andrew

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