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02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1276
Post ID: 20592
Reply to: 20583
Listening to tune the system
fiogf49gjkf0d
 eli8888 wrote:
And end up with a bunch of useless gear as most I know do little to solve the problem. They just tune the sound not always for the good. 
The key is to find the deficiencies in your system by listening to it and to correct the deficient components.

 eli8888 wrote:
even if electricity is great, does transmit a small portion of what is going on, specially emotions. If electricity is great great great, you may get the 25% illusion and feelings of the real thing. If it is ok maybe 20%. if it is terrible well who know but that is not that common. Is it worth it to go through all the pian and expense just to gain that small 5%?
If it is so small a gain, maybe you are looking in the wrong place. True that if many things are deficient in a system, adding PP3000 will not magically cure everything. I recommend PP3000 only if electricity is the main issue you deal with. Focus on the most obvious weaknesses to get the most benefit.

 eli8888 wrote:
I guess that is what a professional music feels when they listen to our systems. They enjoy them because of the music. They know what to expect and listen to it regardless of deviations and they enjoy it very much.
I have said it before in another thread, but the musicians hear as we do, but they are more concerned about the flaws in the performance than the flaws in the reproduction of the sound. Both things are critical to conveying The Sound however.

Adrian
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 1277
Post ID: 20593
Reply to: 20589
Why is this technology not built IN to every piece of equipment?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I find the discussions about "mad" electricity interesting because:
We don't know what is causing the problem
We don't know what is fixing the problem but that PP seems to have something that gives at least a predictable result.

I mean, we are not talking about $20 phono preamps here. If electricity is the problem, then technology belongs in EVERY power supply to insure SOUND. Instead, I get the impression that many just want a tweakable solution to endlessly discuss.

It has been documented here that a "pure" sine wave does not mean instant better tone. It has not been documented what is "in" the powerline when it sounds like shit. Oscilloscopes could at least give us a view if there was something "significant". How many factors can be involved here? Voltage, Current, Impedance, frequencies other than the 50/60Hz. All very measurable and if I read the posts correctly, things that PP seem to compensate for or correct.

Regeneration is not rocket science - or even that expensive. Why should decent gear not have it built in? Multiple 3 KW regenerators just for listening to a record or CD through headphones sounds pretty ridiculous to me............

The world is SCREAMING for a Melq RT!

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1278
Post ID: 20594
Reply to: 20593
Very valid point.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
Regeneration is not rocket science - or even that expensive. Why should decent gear not have it built in?

This is a very valid point.  I told before that if PP were “smart” about stabilizing own future, or if for instance it was my company, then I would released PP’s own power amplifier with regeneration build in and the regenerator optimized for the need of a given amp. I pitched it to PP a few times and even proposed them to employ Dima’s Zarathustra II idea. It would be very interesting amp but it had no traction.
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1279
Post ID: 20595
Reply to: 20594
"Buffers" and Bespoke Regenerators
fiogf49gjkf0d
Effective per-unit power conditioning/regeneration is a nice dream, and it does make some sense in limited practical terms. There would have to be a way to effectively isolate treated system components, however, since the switching power supplies are toxic to other devices operating anywhere near them, typically including anything that shares a power line with them. Bill Gaw has talked generally about using multiple PPs in his large, complicated system, which is at least an indication that it can be done. In any case, creating "stackable" treated components might be another matter. I would think amps would be the place to start, since their higher current requirements raise the size and the cost of effective regeneration considerably, especially when multiple amps are used in a system. A "hidden" benefit of the unit approach is that the regeneration could be specifically tailored to a particular amp's power requirements.

Paul S
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1280
Post ID: 20596
Reply to: 20590
Quick research
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did some research about non audio marketed AC regenerators. The terminology used commercially is either "online" or "double conversion" UPS. They all have expandable battery packs. There is another topology called "line interactive" which is equivalent to the audio power filters/conditioners without double conversion. Any double conversion unit running on a 15A circuit retails from about $400 - 900. At the lower price end you get a double conversion unit between 700 and 1000W capacity. At the upper 900-1500W. For 20A circuits these units cost between $1000 - $1500. There are also 30A circuit models up to 8000W. These latter models cost about $4000. There are 6-8 companies that are very visible in the market and there seem to be dozens more both in the US and internationally.  The 15A models all have conventional outlets but 20A and 30A models are more variable. Some have conventional 20A outlets, some are meant to be hardwired etc.

The issue with most of the commercial units is the fan. Their fans seem to be way overbuilt for home use. They are built for commercial-industrial use so they may be put in utility closets or near hot equipment. Digging around I found several people who either disabled the fan or replaced it with a smaller quieter fan with no ill effects in home settings.

Some folks have used the commercial units described above to power home theater systems and have given them a thumbs up. I'm sure some models are quieter than others and as noted sometimes the fan has just been replaced with a quieter model. My guess is that the audio marketed units just optimize the fan since they know it will be restricted to home use.

Obviously there was no systematic sonic analysis of all these various units. FWIW a few users did say they heard no sonic difference between the commercial units  and the audio specific units.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1281
Post ID: 20597
Reply to: 20596
Now *that* is useful research
fiogf49gjkf0d
Next let's you acquire a few and tell us the results.  ;-)
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1282
Post ID: 20598
Reply to: 20596
It was said before.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steverino,

I spoke about it a few years back when I was just introduces to the idea of double-conversion class D regenerators. There are ton of them out there. I did tried two of them they were not good but it does not mean that other will not be good. The question is: how many of them you will be trying in order to find the one that works? Be advised that commercial companies (like APC and others) do not have a concept of trial and return – you need to actually buy the unit to try it. I am pretty sure that how that PP cop any was started- they discovered a class D double-conversion regenerator that worked well and then they just optimized it for audio use. It is even possible that they feel that they know why their unit sound good and they over the time are trying to capitalize and improve on it. This is controversial subject and I do not know how accurate would it be but I am sure if you ask them then they would tell you that they constantly and intentionally improve their units. I personally feel that if the very same PP would be design from scratch to be audio unit (with block compartments, shielding, isolation of and separation of duties and etc) then it would be much more interesting performing unit but it is what it is.

So, not is the question: how many random double-conversion class D regenerators you will try in order to find the one that work out for you?  I think that whole point to pay to PP, and I have to note that to pay twice more than it would be for a commercial unit with identical electrical characteristics, is that PP assure you that their unit WILL work with audio well. I think it is a legitimate trade of price for quality and assurance of a custom accommodation.

I have one of my client was disposing a fully operational large double-conversion class D regenerator. It was in vicinity of 30kW and was size of large refrigerator and own separate blower. I was able to get it from them for vertically nothing but then I reflected and thought again. Why do I need to do it and buy a pig in a poke with knowing what would be the result if with PP is might have more or less guarantied or at least predictable result? So I desired to do go there.

For sure it would be fun if somebody would do many experiments and try different devises and then publish own reports. I wish it would be somebody else not me. I have made enough of own experiments and spent time and money on the search for better power treatment solution. I find PP is good solution and a comfortable package deal. What I mend by “package deal” is that the company assures the compliance of the devise with audio tasks, presume that user will use audio evaluation methods on their devise, permit in house free trail. I do not if they do all of it now but they did when I bought my first into in whatever year it was. I just picked up the phone, called to their dealer (at that time it was Bob Rapoport, the undeniable douchebag) and get my 1st unit in a few days. That ability to try it at home and the promise of 30 days money back was something that I would never get from any non-audio company.

Do I want more audio companies make units similar to PP? Of cause, that would be great and that would make PP pull the hands out of own ass to compete. Years back I told to PS Audio guy that he need to stop make his badly sounding unit and switch to double-conversion class D regenerators. Unfortunately he did not go for that.
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1283
Post ID: 20599
Reply to: 20597
Planning the plan
fiogf49gjkf0d
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
Next let's you acquire a few and tell us the results.  ;-)


Ha Ha. Actually I was intending to do that. However, I was going to try things out at the lower end of the price range (under 1kW) on my computer based system since fan noise is less of an issue there. The transferability of the results might be more limited since there are only two computers (w/ soundcard), a tube headphone amp and a DAC. I can test it out on the bedroom system as well but it might be more stressed on the other two systems compared to my PP1050. I would think that test would at least allow some comparison of the tonal effects between the different models more than the dynamic effects. And it is also true that the vast majority of ordinary home stereos can be run off a 1kw model.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1284
Post ID: 20600
Reply to: 20598
Moving on
fiogf49gjkf0d
These fly by night audio companies go bye bye when you aren't looking leaving you with orphaned products. Most of my components through the years other than Sony ES SACD players were made by companies that disappeared suddenly. So it makes sense to consider alternatives. I can potentially get most of the smaller units on the used market for not much money. And to your point, yes some of them have 30 day return conditions. I don't need the 8kw version like some folks I know.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
thegooddoctor
Posts 3
Joined on 02-10-2014
Post #: 1285
Post ID: 20601
Reply to: 20600
TG Lee Audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have owned a PurePower 2000i (prior to the company moving its production back to Canada) and while it had a positive effect on the playback it created more issues than it solved with its noisy switching recharging circuit and the internal fans. The internal construction was also extremely poor.
A more interesting option comes from TG Lee Audio in China.
This looks to be extremely well made with the recharging, battery, and regeneration portions separated into three discrete chassis with industrial-type umbilicals/connectors between each. I have seen such a configuration in operation in an associate's system and while I do not have enough familiarity to comment on the effect it has on the playback I can report that it was dead silent in operation and very well built.
Worth looking into for those with the patience to deal directly with a Chinese manufacturer which clearly has its roots in the industrial world rather than the audiophile snake oil world. Please note that I am not affiliated with the company in any way.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1286
Post ID: 20602
Reply to: 20601
Shameless self promotion?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 thegooddoctor wrote:
This looks to be extremely well made with the recharging, battery, and regeneration portions separated into three discrete chassis with industrial-type umbilicals/connectors between each. I have seen such a configuration in operation in an associate's system and while I do not have enough familiarity to comment on the effect it has on the playback I can report that it was dead silent in operation and very well built.
This is pathognomonic of audiophile marketing today. There is no attempt made to describe sound - the buyers may well have tin ears anyway - no talk about the topology or electricity; just reliance on impressively sexy looking equipment. If indeed you used PP2000, then you could comment on the similar effect or not on your friend's system. It is obvious when you listen.
 thegooddoctor wrote:
Please note that I am not affiliated with the company in any way.
Sorry to say I am dubious of this when you promote a specific unit over another in a forum many have looked to for reference.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1287
Post ID: 20603
Reply to: 20602
Trolls are alive and well
fiogf49gjkf0d
the gooddoctor says "while I do not have enough familiarity to comment on the effect it has on the playback ...."

.....It won't stop me from recommending it above all others????

 Such is the state of the review in the 21st century.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
thegooddoctor
Posts 3
Joined on 02-10-2014
Post #: 1288
Post ID: 20604
Reply to: 20603
Grumpy old men
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh, FFS! I was merely pointing out the existence of an alternate product which many would not be familiar with. Maybe someone who has experience with it could chime in with their thoughts to the potential benefit of all. Maybe others could do their own research into the product to see if it might be worth trying for themselves.
Audio really does attract more than its fair share of grumpy old men with borderline personality disorder.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
thegooddoctor
Posts 3
Joined on 02-10-2014
Post #: 1289
Post ID: 20607
Reply to: 20602
Comparing apples to oranges
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
 thegooddoctor wrote:
This looks to be extremely well made with the recharging, battery, and regeneration portions separated into three discrete chassis with industrial-type umbilicals/connectors between each. I have seen such a configuration in operation in an associate's system and while I do not have enough familiarity to comment on the effect it has on the playback I can report that it was dead silent in operation and very well built.
This is pathognomonic of audiophile marketing today. There is no attempt made to describe sound - the buyers may well have tin ears anyway - no talk about the topology or electricity; just reliance on impressively sexy looking equipment. If indeed you used PP2000, then you could comment on the similar effect or not on your friend's system. It is obvious when you listen.
 thegooddoctor wrote:
Please note that I am not affiliated with the company in any way.
Sorry to say I am dubious of this when you promote a specific unit over another in a forum many have looked to for reference.

So I should describe the sonic differences between two completely different power regeneration units when they were used in completely different rooms, systems, and with different music. That would be incredibly helpful and valid now wouldn't it?!
For what it's worth, I place very little importance on the external aesthetics of a piece of audio equipment and if I had my way none of it would be on display. What does concern me is poorly laid out internals which show either a lack of understanding, laziness, or both. Why PurePower would use a recharging circuit which produces high frequency switching noise, audible from across the room with no music playing, is beyond comprehension. Maybe this is not a problem for the typical audiophile who cannot hear anything beyond 10 kHz.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1290
Post ID: 20608
Reply to: 20607
TG Lee Audio devises.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hey, people chill out. The guy provide just information, I do not think he makes any adjudication comments and if he would then why not. For sure the TG Lee Audio generator does look interesting. The separation of the chasses on 3 sections is very right approach; it might be done by proper shielding. The fact that PP has a lot of unnecessary stray digital noise all across the circuitry was mentioned me many times. I do not say that it has impact on sound however, I just do not know but it presume that it has.

Anyhow, looking at the pictures of the TG Lee Audio’s devises I see some interesting things, The PIR5000S unit is 5kW, has no hit radiators and one small box. PR2000SPH is 3 serrate boxes and the last image has the picture of output stage with no lid. This is kind of strange. It has too much heat radiators to be class D output stage, It is rated for 1200W but to despite hear at this power then would need 1/8 of the heat sinks. So, I wonder if it is a class A/B output stage? For sure if I got for 3 chassis power devise then I would like to have at least 5K power and many receptacles. Anyhow, it would be interesting to hear about it. Thegooddoctor, care to bring the guy you use the unit to the site?

BTW, Thegooddoctor, if you had recharging circuit which produced high frequency switching noise, audible from across your room then you just had a defective unit as it was never a problem in my experience. I had at this time probably over 10 deferent PP units and have seen probably 6-7 more and never heard any high frequency switching noise. The units do have high frequency switching noise via the pulse transformers (that I wish were shielded and potted anyhow) but this HF noise is confined in the box of the unit. And, yes feel that I do hear very well into HF. I do admit that some people do have hypersensitivity to HF, perhaps it is not me. Anyhow, the HF mechanical noise from the unit that you report I never experienced. The only noise I hear was when the buttery is completely discharged then for a first few minutes the charger sound very loud but it never during the normal operation.

Anyhow, someone needs to bring those units in US that we could try them. Does anyone want to have an import business with China?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1291
Post ID: 20609
Reply to: 20594
Very interesting
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I told before that if PP were “smart” about stabilizing own future, or if for instance it was my company, then I would released PP’s own power amplifier with regeneration build in and the regenerator optimized for the need of a given amp.
 


Hasn't Wavac done something like that with their SH-833 amp?...at a stratospheric cost of course.

TG Lee--looks very-very good inside indeed! Discrete amps, R-core output transformers...phew!
By the looks the amp indeed resembles a linear one, albeit for 1.2kW the radiators look smalish IMHO.
The amp is also symmetric: perhaps 2 independent 600W amps, each for 2 sockets?
I'm constructing something similar for my TT motor (although without the battery for now):
a uC-controlled 3 phase double converter with 3 linear amps based on LM4780.
Might be good for a low-power front end too...we'll see.

Cheers,
N-set


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1292
Post ID: 20610
Reply to: 20608
Please do not send the $14000 check
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

 My apologies to the good doctor if he is not a troll. However, when he started with off-the-wall critiques of the PP units operation (as you noted) and then proceeded to talk about number of boxes and did not discuss sonic comparisons, it was not an auspicious beginning. The whole Chinese situation at the moment is not very stable. Even promising gear like the Doge suddenly gets whipped around because of apparent internal politics and the export business. (also cf Jolida). Anyway please be careful with your checkbook just yet.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1293
Post ID: 20611
Reply to: 20610
Here is how I think.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steverino, it is not about check, trusting to Chinese or any geopolitical issuers. The biggest problem is that they market it for Hi-Fi but no one has any idea what the definition of Hi-Fi they have in their minds.  My experience that any wide-public  commercial devise that meant to be use foe audio placation in the best targeted to work with SONY 5ch receivers that people get in Best Buy. The application that we use in so called high-end audio is absolutely minuscule segment of market and I very much presume that those Chinese folks might not even know that we exist.  So, in context of all said above the fact the PP regenerators exist and they are tested for out very narrowly specific application is a very seldom luck.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1294
Post ID: 20612
Reply to: 20611
Yes but
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand the point. Unfortunately the vast proportion of those firms have poor business practices of one kind or another and don't survive and their products go with them. But you took a weight off my mind that the checkbook is under lock and key. Thanks.
02-10-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1295
Post ID: 20613
Reply to: 20611
Chinese High End?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
My experience that any wide-public  commercial devise that meant to be use foe audio placation in the best targeted to work with SONY 5ch receivers that people get in Best Buy. The application that we use in so called high-end audio is absolutely minuscule segment of market and I very much presume that those Chinese folks might not even know that we exist.  So, in context of all said above the fact the PP regenerators exist and they are tested for out very narrowly specific application is a very seldom luck.
Possibly, but it is best not to presume. There is a significant vacuum tube culture coming up in Hong Kong with their nouveau riche, so it is quite possible. For example, the GZ34 tubes I use are Chinese. I tried many new and vintage tubes and the Chinese ones had the most true sound in my application, so it is best not to prejudge, but simply to listen to the product. On the other hand, this company went out of business like many small audiophile companies, so it is a caveat.

Adrian
02-11-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1296
Post ID: 20614
Reply to: 20613
A relevant electricity?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, I do not make presumption about Chinese absolute level of audio but I rather am saying that their level of reference points is unknown. Yes, it is possible that a company would make intentionally of accidently a wonderful product. After all, all audio products that we use today are in one way or another are made in China. What I mean that to evaluate the performance of power generator requires an infrastructure. The infrastructure would include a demanding playback, presence of the relevant electricity in the wall (I am pretty sure that Chinese electricity and US electricity for instance have different problems) and yes, the presence of certain listening objectives that might or not might exist in the people that you do not know. So, to me if a person that I do not know, listening a playback the I do not know and who has listening aims that I am not informed would inform me that that his regenerator is make with audio purpose in mind I would not know how to relate to the said. I admit I do have a tendency to presume worst in audio but it is purely for self-defense – it helps me to be right most of the time and prevents me to suffer from disappointments.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1297
Post ID: 20615
Reply to: 20614
So it is back and I was wrong
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is of justice to mention it. I just got today my money back into my account. So much for this history on mine. It is of justice to post it and not only to leave the posts of delays, so the history is complete and people have the complete history from beginning to end.
As per trying PP, maybe in the future once some time passes and things settle we will see. 
BestEli
04-27-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1298
Post ID: 20737
Reply to: 20615
Grateful
fiogf49gjkf0d
Despite I have always paid my electricity bill on time for almost 50 years, yet I am glad and even grateful for days like yesterday and today: just me and the dogs in the house, and truly wonderful electricity. I am also grateful for my record collection on days like these, and I can remember why I got into the [stupid] hi-fi in the first place.

Paul S
05-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1299
Post ID: 20773
Reply to: 2931
Not a Filter, a "Field Generator"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have no idea what it is but it is what it is.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/nordost_qk1.htm

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Goetz


Hamburg/GER and Gdansk/PL
Posts 11
Joined on 01-14-2013
Post #: 1300
Post ID: 20794
Reply to: 20773
QK1 or better integrate LCR directly into your grid to audio link
fiogf49gjkf0d
What I assumed initially is written on the Nordost page.
"The QKOIL QK1 is a load resonating coil (LRC) which generates a passive electronic field that has a beneficial sonic effect on the AC current."

... as we should do in loudspeaker crossovers (when needed to cure a speakers unpleasant spikes and other "behaviours")

Between your grid and your audio gear you should install RF filter with (adjustable)separation transformer, any kind of LCR, or LR or LC combination to cure ( a little bit) the AC sinus which is getting nowadays worse and worse.
Ideal solution would be like a Schaffner Eco Sine active module but for 230/115V.....

Greetings form OTC Houston.
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