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02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1226
Post ID: 20527
Reply to: 20421
Dedicated line shielding
fiogf49gjkf0d
Guys, do you shield your dedicated powe lines?
I'd have around 9m of a cable unning in the air from the apartment's power distibution box to the
rack. For me it looks like a nice antena for picking EMI/RFI trash
from the air. Such shielding indirectly suggest e.g. some pictures in R. Morrison's
"Grounding and shielding techniques..." (e.g. fig. 6.14 in the 3rd edition).

Cheers,
N-set


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1227
Post ID: 20528
Reply to: 20527
Shielding of dedicated power lines.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I feel that shielding of dedicated power lines is kind of arguable subject. First of it I do not know if it is necessary. What will you shield from?  The main point is what kind shielding and how it affects sound.  It might be shielding that is implemented in cable and it might the dedicated power line all together running in metal pipe. I did not try to shield my dedicated power line but I did experiment with power cord for audio components. My observation was that any shielded power cable made sound more challenging in imaging and slightly more flat. I have no idea why and it might be was the problem of specific shielded cable that I happened to have. I still have in basement perhaps 3-4 “expensive” shielded power cords that I do not use. Now if I have a superstition (perhaps I am wrong) that shielded cable adversely affect sound then how easy would be to do the same taste with let 150” dedicated power cable. A dedicated power line is an expensive and demanding project and I would applaud to somebody who would have 3-4 different examples of cables and chose among them. I would also applaud to somebody who would run 200” of steal pipe across house and then evaluate of this shielding have any sonic difference.  I wish I had this experience and I am frankly speaking I am glad that I did not.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miso
Posts 1
Joined on 02-04-2014
Post #: 1228
Post ID: 20529
Reply to: 20528
Shielding side-effects
fiogf49gjkf0d
Years ago i was testing various signal and speaker cables and wire configurations (as many did). Various gauges, shielded co-axials as well as single and multiple strands in various shapes/relations between signal and ground. My conclusion was that a full shielding, or even tight twist considerably flatted the sound. The sound didn't appear wrong by itself, but in direct comparison the flattening was very evident. The final winner was a never crossing 2 strand spiral of thin enameled wire around a cotton core (rope of 1cm diameter). From that time i never tightly bundled s/g wires together anywhere. I can't imagine what phenomena contribute to this (capacitance?) that are common with power cables as well, but it's always interesting to read about the effects of power cables from people who don't actually sell them.   
02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1229
Post ID: 20530
Reply to: 20529
Shielding.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, miso, I had exactly the very same experience. I did not experimented with high voltage wires and my high voltage were a few premade power cords that I got from different manufactures. Interesting that shielded cable BEFORE PP3000 aloe impact sound negatively.  I did however experimented a lot with signal wires during Milq contraction. There is a critical wire that goes to the 6C33C’s grid and I had perhaps 20 different wires in there, including some shielded. Anything shielded was not very good and a regular copper wire, twisted but not too widely, was the best solution. Is it universal rule? I do not know…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1230
Post ID: 20531
Reply to: 20529
Antennas
fiogf49gjkf0d
We do have a cable thread somewhere on this site that might be better for cable-specific posts. As far as purely electrical "issues", in the end, better sound is still the main consideration. Shielding power lines is not only very difficult to do, in practical terms, but it is not in any case a perfect solution, since any reduction in noise by shielding comes at the cost of reduced quality of "remaining" sound in the end. God only knows why this is so. My own experiments show that crossing (braiding) power cable wires also introduces sonic "issues" even as it serves as an imperfect RFI/EMI "shield", probably by reducing inductance. I presently use braided 12 gauge magnet wires for power cords to my amps, where each of 3 wires is sleeved with soft polyethylene tubing, and the ground wire "floats" only on the component end, serving as a "drain" to ground for parasitic noise. These power cords "work" better in aggregate terms than other expensive cords I have tried, but they don't address surges or other on-line noise issues at all. Sadly, the "high quality" surge guards I've tried have been bad for sound, so I just take my chances. I have to confess that where I live, lightening is rare; but there is a LOT of noise "in the air" and on the power lines, which are, after all, perfect "antennas".

Back to lightening, it takes many forms, another study, in itself.

Paul S
02-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1231
Post ID: 20532
Reply to: 20531
Risky business
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks all for the replies! Looks like a very risky business.
Given the work involved and highly unsure effect, I'll happily skip
the shielding. Your comments suggest that the high capacitance line to ground (which the shield would happily provide) is undesireable.
I can speculate that this capacitance together with the input RCA-to-case capacitance may povide a path
for the line garbage into the amps input, but that's just my fantassies...
As for the implementation of the hypothetical shield,
instead of the steel tubbing, I was thinking of putting the power cable into a  copper mesh of a large enough diameter.

Cheers,
N-set

PS Paul, very clever idea with a floating on one end drain wire in the AC cord!


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1232
Post ID: 20543
Reply to: 20532
Risky Business and Pure Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
HI all, my first post, although have been reading for a long long time and have contact with some members. Great site.
Wanted to share with you my experience with a PurePower order. and my huge problem... I have read terrible things here before but I do not think anything as bad as mine. 
I ordered a PP3000+ on the 2nd of October 2013. Did it through an official distributor in Europe. I was given a 2 to 3 weeks delivery time after consulting with the factory. ON the 24th the distributor informs me of a delay. I had not been asked for any payment at the time so was not really concerned. 4th of November, a month after placing the order, I get a confirmation of availability for the 15th of November and was asked for full payment, which I did. Given the delay since the order was placed, I asked the distributor to boucle check and get another time confirmation on delivery date the 15th of November, I got this confirmation so I did the payment of the full amount on the 6th of November.... well guess what...
The 13th of November I get a mail saying they will ship next week. ON the 20th of November after asking I get a mail saying they are testing some "new" units with a change in design and that they will ship asap but can not give a date. ON the 27th I ask again. No news from Purepower on when they will ship.
ON the 28th of November they promise to give me a shipping date next day. the 3rd of December I am told Purepower will ship soon but no date given.
By then it was 2 months since ordering so I decided to give it up and ask for a refund. I ask for a refund by mail the 6th of December. I get a mail telling me they had to make some design changes. I insist to get my money back given they were not able to send anything is over 2 months. They say the would do the refund soon.
No news from them in many days. The 17th of December the distributor tries to reach them again. Richard from Purepower sends me a mail saying he will refund the distributor directly. That on the 17th of December. ON the 20th I get a mail saying the refund will be made 2nd week of January...!!! Don't ask me for the reason. 14th of January after I ask again I get a mail saying they could not do the transfer due to the storms...!!!! and that it would be done next week. 18th of January the say they will pay next week... And so it goes. 
To resume it, as of today I do not still have the money, have not been given any reason why they do not refund and they just have my money for over 2 months which in my continent, that  has a name. I could been given many excuses why a unit is not sent. But I can not see any reason why they do not refund money they have for over 2 months. Money is money. Don't think they have production issues with that...
This is terrible. I had heard about delays in products. But keeping someone's money for over 2 months just because is terrible and dishonest. No communication from pure power in all this time since I told them I wanted a refund 2 months ago. 
I do have all the mails with prove of all I just said and dates. As you can imagine, they are many, but thankfully I kept them all.
Many here has a lot of experience with this company. Any advice or help someone could provide to me would be very appreciated. I really do not want and will not kiss good bye the almost 5000 Euro I gave this guys. Will do whatever I need to do.
Please help from anyone would be very much appreciated. This is a lot of money.
Thanks in advanceEli
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 353
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1233
Post ID: 20544
Reply to: 20543
Cruel to be kind
fiogf49gjkf0d
We did do what we could to help you in advance. If you read the thread then you would not be surprised at what you are going through. There apparently is a hierarchy as to who gets what when. You need to elevate yourself on the hierarchy.
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1234
Post ID: 20545
Reply to: 20544
This is no delay. is taking your money
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes I know. But I read about endless delays in production and delivery. But nothing in not willing to give the money back for months to a person who has cancelled an order. One thing is to have production problems which is clear they have. Another is to be dishonest which is what you are when you take the money of another person and run. There are no excuses there about production problems or whatever. Keeping your money just because is a total different thing frankly I was not expecting.
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 1235
Post ID: 20546
Reply to: 20545
Chain of liability
fiogf49gjkf0d
If you bought it through a third party, then they are liable for your refund, not the manufacturer. How they get their money back is their own problem. 
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1236
Post ID: 20547
Reply to: 20546
My situation
fiogf49gjkf0d
The 3rd party, who is an official distributor of the product for Europe is telling me he will prepay me as soon as pure power send them the money they paid back. This was agreed with PurePower and the distributor.
The scheme si I paid the distributor. The distributor paid Pure power. I cancelled the order and asked for my money back. The distributor did not had it anymore since it had paid PUrepwoer. Asked pure power for the money. Never got it so neither did I. If I have to go after them I will go after both of them. Just hope I do not have to get to that extreme. But is looking bad. 
It is very dishonest. What I can not understand from the distributor is ho they keep representing a company like this. 
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 353
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1237
Post ID: 20548
Reply to: 20545
Lambs to the ....
fiogf49gjkf0d
So when you "read about endless delays in production and delivery", the first thing you do is order an expensive piece of equipment no questions asked or precautions taken??
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1238
Post ID: 20549
Reply to: 20548
Delay is not the same or so I thought
fiogf49gjkf0d
I read about delays. But thought if I decided to cancel they would return the money. Did not read anything about they taking your money and running.... Guess was wrong. The dealer seemed honest. They did not want to take my money until they got a firm delivery date from Pupre peer which took a month almost, so thought they had it solved out. But the has nothing to do with delay in production or supply problems or redesign of products. Is taking your money and running which also has other names.
But yes, what can I say. You do have a point.... 
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1239
Post ID: 20550
Reply to: 20549
Mark Up/Profit?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I can't remember if you've pre-paid the entire cost of a unit, or if you've just paid a fraction as a deposit. In any case, did your distributor actually pay all the money you've paid so far to Pure Power, or did the distributor already keep some of your money for himself? If the latter...


Good Luck,
Paul
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1240
Post ID: 20551
Reply to: 20543
I think you will be fine.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Eli, I do not think that it is PurePower objective to grab your money and to run.  They are notorious with delays and it certainly might be unpleasant. With all due respect: 2 month delay is kind of nothing and if the unit does work as it expected then it well worth it. As it happened many time before I wish PurePower would give more realistic and exact expectations to customers. It is not a big deal and not uncommon to have 2-3 month lag period and it would be nice if PurePower was clean about it. If you still want you will have your unit eventually and if you do not want it then I am sure they they will return your money.

I have a friend of mine ordered PP3000+ in October I believe. He is an industry person and they promised to him “expedited” service. We, he was calling me again and again bitching that PurePower keep dealing it. He got this unit in December eventually. Paradoxically or not but this is how it works with them. PurePower is not Amazon and if you adjust your expectation then you will be less frustrated.
Two things that bother me in your post.

First is your distributor. Sorry but he is an asshole. A distributor is not the person who moves the boxes and takes large percentage in his pocket but it is a person who embraces liability. Sine you bought from official distributor in Europe you have no business even to talk with PurePower. Your distributor is your men and even if PurePower close operation and emigrate to Mars your distributor is the one who responsible for the deal.
Second is that I and not wild that they “are testing some "new" units with a change in design”.  Frankly those changes in design without official announcement of the changes is not something that I feel comfortable.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 353
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1241
Post ID: 20552
Reply to: 20549
Alive and well on audiogon ???!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Posted on Feb 4 2014

PurePower+ 3000 AC Power Regenerator - 2700 Watt Capacity; World's Best Technology; Battery Back-Up; 20% Off Special; Back in Stock !

Caveat emptor.

FWIW I should note that these units are being sold by some Canadian vendor called the Parts Connexion. I don't know if it is a front for PP, an authorized dealer or gray market. Pure Power is in Ayr Ontario and the Parts Connexion is less than an hour away in Burlington Ontario.
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1242
Post ID: 20553
Reply to: 20543
Good money after bad!
fiogf49gjkf0d
As some here may remember, I purchased a number of years ago, before the debacle and attempted coup at PurePower, a nice Pure Power 2000. It always suffered from a slight buzzing when plugged in, which I feel was due an internal grounding issue. This culminated in the failure of the unit, which was sent back uneventfully for repairs.

And then it never came back.

I had got many excuses for this over the years. First, there were delays, testing problems, a new circuit being designed.  Then it was simply lost somewhere, then it was the trouble with the Chinese manufacturing, having to re-establish everything in Canada, limited production, wanting to get units out for reviews.... and so on. 

For a while they were re-investing the money from sales directly into production costs. I was given assurances and re-assurances, upgraded eventually to the PP3000+ to compensate me for the delays.

But... never did a unit show up.

They are quite convincing, I admit. The last time, several months ago, they assured me that my unit was being built. They would even be willing to upgrade the wiring and AC outlets for cost. I was fooled again (shame on me) and sent them a check for another several hundred dollars. The check was cashed quickly enough, but AGAIN the unit never arrived.

Now they refuse to even respond to my calls or e-mails!

To reiterate, IT HAS BEEN YEARS not months that I have been waiting. And I have NEVER received my unit, the unit which I paid for and then stupidly sent them even more money.

I hate to say it, because bad press will make things more difficult for them and it is a wonderful product, but at this point, NO ONE SHOULD EVER BUY FROM PUREPOWER. They cannot be trusted. If my story is any lesson, they will take your money and leave you hanging!

Adrian
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1243
Post ID: 20554
Reply to: 20552
Pure Power is not to be trusted!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Do not buy from this company. They took my money with no intention to ever deliver a unit to me. If you find a unit on the shelf in a store and it is functioning, buy that unit and take it home. Don't give Purepower your money up front. You will just be throwing your money away. 

Adrian
02-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 353
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1244
Post ID: 20555
Reply to: 20554
Repair
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
Do not buy from this company. They took my money with no intention to ever deliver a unit to me. If you find a unit on the shelf in a store and it is functioning, buy that unit and take it home. Don't give Purepower your money up front. You will just be throwing your money away. 

Adrian


What if it needed repair after you took it home??

I stated my doubts at the time of their return to Canada, based on job experiences in production and config management, that they could suddenly produce the PP units in Canada at the same price as in the Orient. The apparent constant design tinkering probably stems from that. Quite frankly I would have felt less technical concern if the price had doubled. 
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 1245
Post ID: 20557
Reply to: 20547
Distributor or retailer?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 eli8888 wrote:
The 3rd party, who is an official distributor of the product for Europe is telling me he will prepay me as soon as pure power send them the money they paid back. This was agreed with PurePower and the distributor.
The scheme si I paid the distributor. The distributor paid Pure power. I cancelled the order and asked for my money back. The distributor did not had it anymore since it had paid PUrepwoer.
Eli, did you buy from a distributor or from a retailer? Did you try to bypass a retailer to get a better deal, or is it the case that you simply don't have a PP retailer in your country?

In any event, who is the distributor? Give us a name. If there are PP retailers in your country then the distributor should not have sold a unit directly to you. The distributor should refund you, no questions asked. What happens between the distributor and PP should be none of your concern.

FWIW, I ordered a PP3000+ from Audio Emotion (PP retailer in the UK) just over a year ago. When the unit arrived, it malfunctioned - the battery was leaking. I returned it to Audio Emotion, who on receiving it told me that there must have been a catastrophic event during its shipping to me, as there was a hole in the base of the box and battery, by something penetrating through both. Interestingly, I noticed no such hole in either the box or battery when the unit was here. Not impressed, I asked for a full refund. They tried to assure me that it was a one-off incident, and that they would send me another unit asap. But I insisted on a full refund. In any event, that's exactly what I got. A full refund. I can't remember if I paid by credit card or debit card. I suspect it was the latter for a 5% discount on the RRP.

If you've paid by credit card, there is no question that you will get your money back. Contact your cc company and let them know your situation. If you paid the distributor by bank transfer... things might be more difficult for you. But start by naming them here - I'm sure anyone thinking of buying a PP would do their homework and end up looking at this thread beforehand.

IMO, your distributor should pay you back. It's as simple as that.

Good luck.Mani.
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1246
Post ID: 20559
Reply to: 20557
This how it shall work.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 manisandher wrote:
. The distributor should refund you, no questions asked. What happens between the distributor and PP should be none of your concern.
Mani is very much right. A distributor or a dealer who propagate to you whatever problems he has with manufactures shall be fired by you. I am very sure that if you buy directly from PP then they will not make you to pay until you get the unit. I very much do not advocate buying from PP or from any other manufacture. All that I am saying is that distributor or a dealer is in a way shall be proxy advocate of consumer. If you have any issues or any warranty claim then you shell bring it to you dealer, dump it to the floor and it will be the dealer problem. The larger and better dealers operate exactly like this. This is what they mark up from 25% to 80% over the original manufacture price.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1247
Post ID: 20561
Reply to: 20559
Avoid direct dealing with Pure Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I am very sure that if you buy directly from PP then they will not make you to pay until you get the unit. I very much do not advocate buying from PP or from any other manufacture.

Not correct. However, I am glad you say then the caveat not to buy from any manufacturer. I purchased directly from PurePower. I paid up front. This is the standard of retail business transactions, although not for service transactions. My problem is that I never received a unit back, even after I paid them more money. Unbelievable that it has been years since I sent my unit for repair, and even though they have corresponded with me and given me every excuse in the book for delays, I have never yet seen a physical unit to be delivered to me!
With PurePower and any company, if you deal with credit cards and with larger distributors, that can absorb the loss, this is the only hope the consumer has to get his money back.
Adrian
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1248
Post ID: 20562
Reply to: 20561
Erotic dreams
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, just for you. In order you do not feel lonely I need to tell you that I personally wired to Micro Seiki somewhere around $14.000 for a new 8000II system that they promised to deliver in 2 month. I still have the contract and invoice and it was in 1999. It has been 15 years and I still have sometimes the erotic dream about me wake up another day and a big box sitting on my porch. Yes, you right….

Regarding your issues with PurePower, I still do think that they will respect own obligations and will make good for you. I do think that your case is not my Micro’s case you will wake up one day and will see that smiley UPS mad with large Canadian box


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1249
Post ID: 20563
Reply to: 20551
Rommy you are partially right
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Eli, I do not think that it is PurePower objective to grab your money and to run.  They are notorious with delays and it certainly might be unpleasant. With all due respect: 2 month delay is kind of nothing and if the unit does work as it expected then it well worth it. As it happened many time before I wish PurePower would give more realistic and exact expectations to customers. It is not a big deal and not uncommon to have 2-3 month lag period and it would be nice if PurePower was clean about it. If you still want you will have your unit eventually and if you do not want it then I am sure they they will return your money.

I have a friend of mine ordered PP3000+ in October I believe. He is an industry person and they promised to him “expedited” service. We, he was calling me again and again bitching that PurePower keep dealing it. He got this unit in December eventually. Paradoxically or not but this is how it works with them. PurePower is not Amazon and if you adjust your expectation then you will be less frustrated.
Two things that bother me in your post.

First is your distributor. Sorry but he is an asshole. A distributor is not the person who moves the boxes and takes large percentage in his pocket but it is a person who embraces liability. Sine you bought from official distributor in Europe you have no business even to talk with PurePower. Your distributor is your men and even if PurePower close operation and emigrate to Mars your distributor is the one who responsible for the deal.
Second is that I and not wild that they “are testing some "new" units with a change in design”.  Frankly those changes in design without official announcement of the changes is not something that I feel comfortable.

The Cat

Hi Rommy,
This is different. I do not want the unit. I cancelled the order 2 months ago and just want t refund. I do not care if they make the best sounding unit that will transform my system into a new dimension. I just do not want to do business with them and want my money back, And so I made it explicit over 2 months ago. I do not see a reason why a 2 month delay on a cash refund is acceptable. I am not waiting for a unit, or for a certain part improved or whatever. It is just my money back. Not giving it in so much time leaves me with very little alternatives besides the one of taking the money and running away. I can but the idea of a 2 month delivery time: many excuses for that. delay in supply, overbooking etc etc. But delay in a refund?? Is just doing a wire transfer of cash....
Your friend wants the unit and decided to wait I want my money. I would not take the unit even if it was for free now. nd so I tiold them long long ago. NO justification for not doing a refund of a cancelled order long ago.
Regarding your concerns: 
You do have appoint with the distributor. I will go after both of them for sure. I think both are liable for mails that I have form both of them. PUrepower contacted me to explain me delays and changes in design once I asked for refund. They also agreed to do the refund. So that is why they are also involved.
Regarding the changes in design I have a long mail from PP explaining them. By the time I did not care anymore and did not pay much attention since I decided to ask for a refund already, but certainly there were some changes they made. 
02-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014
Post #: 1250
Post ID: 20564
Reply to: 20552
Alive and kicking at Gon
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is looking worse and worse... Like a Madof ponzy scheme at is best. Maybe they will get some money out of a few candids form that add. 
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