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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  307611  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  84998  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  281423  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1516253  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2797896  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1135975  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2073716  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1352496  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  73385  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17429  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  188134  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  16716  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  123878  06-13-2011
09-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 326
Post ID: 14591
Reply to: 14589
The invisible Cheshire horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 guy sergeant wrote:
Is there no way to smooth out the visible steps in the latter part of the horn's expansion or would you prefer not to?

This is very interesting one. Yes, there is a way to smooth out the visible horizontal steps. The hors seen is very thick behind the steps and a running belt sander with coarse surface will get rid of the steps. My estimate is that it will take 3-4 hours per horn, including the finishing of the jointing chords between the vertical wall and top/bottom of the horn.  That was my initial intend and I did not do it juts because I did not have before the horn lifting. I just smoothed then a bit but I did not get rid of them. I figured that there is an access to the steps from a stepladder and I thought that if I would like to do it then I will do it with the horns installed.

After the horn got hoisted I frankly do NOT feel any inducement to deal with the steps. Under normal circumstances the steps are hardly visible with normal lights in my room. The picture above is made with strong fluorescent lights installed on the SIDE ridges of the cathedral ceiling. This side lighting emphasizes the steps but I hardly ever use this lighting in my room as it is too bright – 32x40W elements, I use it only for room cleaning.  Now, the funny part is that I kind of turn to like the steps as I do like how the light divide itself on the shaded on each step. So, I am willing to keep the steps as it for now and see how it goes.

One thing that I would mention is that in this thread we pay attention to the horn but if you in my room you would hardly notice them. I have the former house owner stop by another day we maintain a good relationship and she visit me occasionally.  She lived in here for over 25 years or so, she built the cathedral ceiling from scratch and standing in the room she did not recognize that the wall have horn in it. She saw that I do some construction in the room but until I pointed her attention to the horns she did not acknowledge them. The room is interesting – all attention is kind of “forced” to the opposite side of the room and there is truly not need to look back at the triangular wall. The triangular wall is truly a dream location for my horns and again – I am very glad that I did not finish them in any more attention-grabbing manner.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 327
Post ID: 14599
Reply to: 14591
Under normal light. Some religious aspects.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Below is how my midbass horns feel in my listening room user normal lighting if evening listening. The horn look a bit too dart but they are the same density as the walls in the room. The horns feel darker because the Triangular wall is all white, from join compound. We still will repaint the horn 4 front section with 50% liter density then they are now to match the color of the ceiling. According to my schedule tomorrow shall be the last day of the project. I quest we did blow it up for 2-3 days as the plaster dries longer than we thought.

Midbass_progress_158.JPG

Anyhow, it looks like this weekend it will be a ceremonial removing of the horn's plugs. I spoke with a guy who is a divinity specialist and he proposed to christen the horns. I guess we need to get drunk and to the smash a bottle of champagne of the horns mouth, I think the choice of the horns, left or right will be upon the priest’s political inclinations…. I thought to bring a rabbi or kohanim to do the job but I afraid that they will circumcise the horns and then I will lose some bass response. With priest I see problem as well as he is accustom  to launching boats at Mariners and he insisted that after christening I need to refer to my horns and “she”. Sorry, I refuse to assume that my midbass horns will have no bolls… Also, the priest insisted to name the horns but it will be not birth but marriage Midbass horns with Macondo. The priest insisted that a marriage might be only between a man and women and not between two pieces of wood.  I am glad that he did not mention that Macondo is black and the midbass horns are white. I think he is clueless. I need to find somebody among Muslims… on the other head the rabbi told me that for 3 easy payments of 29.95 he will perform a ritual in any religious tradition. I told him that then I would prefer a cheetah’s ceremonial dance after she kills an antelope.  The rabbi told that I am a godless Moron… Hey, but I am a Moron with my 42Hz horn in time-alighned position….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 328
Post ID: 14604
Reply to: 14599
A second minor screw up: the horno-lights
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today I realized that light windows in my horns are before the throat plugs and I can ease to setup the light in the horns. I bough very nice 7W defused light, cold running light sources and mounted them to the light windows of the horns. I can’t say that I like the result. The horn looks stupidly and the room filled with very ugly and very uncomfortable light.  Perhaps I need to play with density, diffusion and the most important color of the light. Anyhow, the first result with horno-light is not too thrilling.

Midbass_progress_159.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 329
Post ID: 14605
Reply to: 14604
Another "Mood Enhancer"?
fiogf49gjkf0d
My first thought on looking at your photo: "Night On Bald Mountain"!  This particular set-up might work especially well for Halloween Hi-jinks!

You might even install a remote-actuated "turntable" with different filters... 


Best regards,
Paul S
09-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 330
Post ID: 14606
Reply to: 14605
I would not do the horno-lights if I knew.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As now I feel that the whole idea with light was a bit corny. I actually like the horn feeling the room without lights, or with the lights that I have in the room - I have a lot very good light solutions in the room that I do like. Thankfully the turn lights off take just a switch. I still think the horno-lights might serve some sustaining service (like cleaning dust from horn or to search for signs of moisture) but I do not think that I will use it as light source. I think it was a mistake.  There is no damage from the  horno-lights windows, just some wasted time to make them….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 331
Post ID: 14612
Reply to: 14605
Remote controlled LED
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
My first thought on looking at your photo: "Night On Bald Mountain"!  This particular set-up might work especially well for Halloween Hi-jinks!

You might even install a remote-actuated "turntable" with different filters... 


Best regards,
Paul S


I once used RGB LED lights, which even came with a remote control to change colors and different light-changing programms,
to lit my concrete library shelves.
Got a nice effect. Maybe you can use several RGB hi-power led bulbs, pointing them more toward the mounth?
Best,
jk



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 332
Post ID: 14615
Reply to: 14612
Giant robot halloween lights
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy - forget pulling the throat protectors out... just blast them out with a cheesy 1812 and have the canon shots modulate the lights... Solves the issue of the ceremonial initiation too in secular fashion...

Seriously though, I can't wait to hear (vicariously) how this all turns out...

cheers
cv
10-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 333
Post ID: 14617
Reply to: 13597
The horns are officially opened.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The paint has dried and the plugs from throats are removed. The horns are officially opened. BTW, they sound like shit.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 334
Post ID: 14618
Reply to: 14617
School is in session
fiogf49gjkf0d
So they will need some "teaching".

The most difficult students are often the most promising.

Are you able to say whether the problem is due to the horn position relative to the room, or to throat diameter relative to the driver diameter?

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 335
Post ID: 14619
Reply to: 14618
The Completion. Sad for far.
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, my carpenter has finished today his part, go his final check and the project is officially over for him. Some minor things I will ask him to correct next week. Also I will ask him to put a narrow slightly darker border between horn and the wall, to make it as but more distinctive. We will try next week a few version and I am sure will come with something sensible. Generally I do like how the horns look like, well, it will be better.   I would need to find better looking air vents, not the temp crap that we put it. The sound is a different story….

What we removed the plugs and heard the horns for a first time I did expected as triumph. Instead it was a disaster. It is was not bad sound but the sound that clearly indicated that something is very wrong: supper compressed, complete absent of LF, huge HF extension. The whole horn sounds like a bad MD driver. I took a meter and measured the resonance frequency- it was like I never seen before - it has no resonance. I mean the driver from 14Hz to 150HZ gas absolutely linear impedance as it has no active load. I look at all of it and felt so tiered and I walked out if it. I think in the new room the horn is shooting into the wide open sealing and see no reflection  and all my back chamber calculation and testing the worked so great for horns in basemen is absolutely not applicable now. I need to redo my entire tests with the horns shooting preaty much in open air… Now today however…

Midbass_progress_160.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 336
Post ID: 14621
Reply to: 14619
Horn trauma
fiogf49gjkf0d
That's horribly disappointing for now but I think Jessie is right.

Firstly, as you essentially said, I wonder if the horns are coupling into the room such that you actually have much bigger devices than you thought... you are actually sitting inside the horn, in other words. Do they sound any different with the door open, or standing way out in the garden?

2) What happens if you try and introduce a discontinuity across the mouth, say with a large blanket or two stretched across?

3) Obviously it will be interesting to see what happens with the back chamber open and foam removed...

Take hope; the impedance plot could imply you've managed to create some 10Hz horns by accident, and if they can be tamed... but, finally, I do wonder:

4) They're not playing out of phase by any chance?

Even if not, just look at the damned things - they can't fundamentally sound as bizarre as you've described without something being quite wrong in the setup!

Fingers crossed that a new day brings something quite different...




10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 337
Post ID: 14622
Reply to: 14621
About the foam
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I think you have neither a system with back chamber now (because the foam is closed pore), nor a "true compression driver" (because the foam is not rigid). Probably you mainly have a second vibrating system coupled to the cone that enhances mechanical daming.
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 338
Post ID: 14623
Reply to: 14622
“Give me back my broken night, my mirrored room, my secret life. It's lonely here, there's no one left to torture.”
fiogf49gjkf0d
I woke up and thinking about the horn problem with fresh head I am thinking what did wrong. I did not measure the frequency response of the horn – I did not see a need for it – the sound of the thing is way beyond where it needs to be measured.

I discard the CV’s proposals that it might be somehow room coupling related – room coupling might impact sound dramatically but not this way. This thing sound much-much worse it sounds literally broken. The very main question is what is the difference between this state of the horns now and when they were in basemen. In basemen it was glorious, in the listening room is very bad – what went wrong? The most important is what happen with my impedance? What it is so flat and see not reactance. I called to Bruce Edgar last night and he told me that such a flat impedance is a very seldom positive indication and it suggests that the horn see no reflections. Still, I do not see a lot of positivity in it- I never seen it, I do not like it and in a way afraid it. If a driver’s impedance behaves like static resistor then something is very wrong.

I have a few leading proposals that I will test today:

1)      The foams from back chamber pushed itself through the window of basket and touched the driver cone. Sonically it is very likely but knowing HOW I did the thing I think (hope) it did not happen.  Also, both horns have identical impedance behavior – does it means that foam hold both diaphragms in same way?
 
2)       The refractive behavior of the horn in basement and in my room is so hugely different that it screwed up my primary resonance measurements. The perfect 42 Hz resonance that I was able to get in basement was not my imagination, it was a fact but how about it is as just a reactance of the horn to the wall it was shooting at? If so then I might made the back chamber too small and over tight the cone with pressure behind it. It is possible but also not likely as if this case the primary resonance shall go all the way up but I did not see it even at 140Hz.
 
3)      Burning in the drivers with plugs in the throat had damns them somehow…
 
Anyhow, I have no idea what it is and I need to provoke the horn to tell me what went wrong.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 339
Post ID: 14624
Reply to: 14623
Cone-foam coupling
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


1)      The foams from back chamber pushed itself through the window of basket and touched the driver cone. Sonically it is very likely but knowing HOW I did the thing I think (hope) it did not happen.  Also, both horns have identical impedance behavior – does it means that foam hold both diaphragms in same way?
 


I think the foam vibrates with the cone even if it is not directly touching it. And even if the damping of the foam is not the reason for the flat impedance curve there will still be non-linearities. Was the horn fully assembled when you tested it in the basement?
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 340
Post ID: 14625
Reply to: 14623
Misbehaving horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I woke up and thinking about the horn problem with fresh head I am thinking what did wrong. I did not measure the frequency response of the horn – I did not see a need for it – the sound of the thing is way beyond where it needs to be measured.


I have a few leading proposals that I will test today: 


3)      Burning in the drivers with plugs in the throat had damns them somehow…
 
Anyhow, I have no idea what it is and I need to provoke the horn to tell me what went wrong.

The Cat


Hi Romy:

I doubt that this is the answer to your horn problems but if you recall, when we talked about the possibility of high temperatures affecting performance, maybe you might investigate whether the drivers still perform as they should given that 'burning in' with the throats 'plugged' might have resulted in very high temperatures building up with the drivers effectively sealed back and front, even with relatively low power requirements.

Just a thought.

Clearly the first thing to do in my mind is check state of the drivers, then take out foam and see what happens. You may also want to check the wiring you have used, given the extensive lengths involved and take some measurements there, possibly use some shorter lengths by moving some amps closer to drivers.

I hope it all works out as I love the idea so much I would like to copy it!!

All the best
Rakesh
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 341
Post ID: 14626
Reply to: 14625
Wired
fiogf49gjkf0d

Rakesh reminds us of the decision to "go long".  Romy, how much wire has been involved with the testing so far?  Very long runs often present their own problems, including similar to what you have described.  I would schlep the B2 over to the horns and at least try them with short runs before I tore anything else apart.  Feed it with a laptop if you have to.

Best regards,
Paul S

10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 342
Post ID: 14627
Reply to: 14619
How to localize the problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is was not bad sound but the sound that clearly indicated that something is very wrong: supper compressed, complete absent of LF, huge HF extension. The whole horn sounds like a bad MD driver.

Open the back panels of you compression chambers, remove all of the foam behind the cones and run the drivers without any acoustic resistance behind them.



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
deemon
Posts 24
Joined on 05-25-2004

Post #: 343
Post ID: 14628
Reply to: 14619
The possible cause
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I mean the driver from 14Hz to 150HZ gas absolutely linear impedance as it has no active load. I look at all of it and felt so tiered and I walked out if it. I think in the new room the horn is shooting into the wide open sealing and see no reflection  and all my back chamber calculation and testing the worked so great for horns in basemen is absolutely not applicable now.
Romy , if your driver behaves like resistor - it seems like something stopping it . If the motor cannot move , we'll see only active resistance of the coil - exactly what you see . Maybe your foam in the back chamber expanded in some way , and blocked the speaker cone .
10-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 74
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 344
Post ID: 14629
Reply to: 14383
Impedance test the way you done it
fiogf49gjkf0d
 unicon wrote:
Roman, 

I suggest that you do add the mass in driver like coins in driver cone(and measure the coin weight too) and do added mass free air impedance test then you can see where it can bring another low resonance .then when it reaches 20% lower the free air you are getting the most out of your driver  .so in loaded horn you can be sure how much foam to add and having the goal impedance you can be almost sure everything is right.
and i suggest not to try more than 20% 


I really dont like the way you try it.
the sound can be heard accidentally so good and when missed cant be implemented again.

I dont wanna disappoint you but the logic used to get the resonances you wanted to hear was basically based on what you liked to hear naw you switched to testing it .
just
Try the free air test and add mass on cone and do another test and then in horn loaded then you have the clue whats happening ...
do the basic testing from start and dw what it guna sound laterz
then we can discuss the room coupling...

best regards
        unicon




10-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 345
Post ID: 14630
Reply to: 14629
The another day of midbass.
fiogf49gjkf0d

OK, this morning I tuned the playback and did some listing, trying to understand what was the problem. Sound was not just bad but it was very strange, it was almost as a mechanical replica of sound. I took my phase meter trying to set horns in phase with the rest of the system and I was shocked how the horns reacted to the 2+1 phase pulses. Any speakers do it like claps but my horns presented it almost as VC was rubbing the gap. Also, the midbass horn did not react to crossover properly- it output pretty much the same horribly-compressed MF sound aka a telephone from 30s….. This was no what I was signed for.

I decided to poke a small whole in back chamber on one of the horns and to see if it would impact resonance frequency. I disagree with el`Ol that the foam I use is too soft. It tested many time – this type of foam for the purpose of filling back chamber is as good as solid brick. I made a small 1-2mm hole from the driver window to outside and measured the resonance – there was no fucking resonance. I decided that foam glued the cone and the game is over- I started to cut the foam to replace the driver.

When I reached the level of fabric cover the window I realized that the fabric was not perpetrated by foam and the driver’s diaphragm was in absolutely intact virgin state. What the hell – I was asking myself. I opened one whole basket‘s window and measured the resonance frequency.  To my huge surprise I did see the resonance now. It was 54.6Hz. I need to mention that the resonance was nothing even remotely close to what I had in basement. In basement it was almost 50%, very sharp impedance dive, her in the room,  it was more like 5-10% and very smooth dive. I took foams from one more window - 52Hz. Eventually I took all non-compressible foams out of the chamber. The resonance drooped to 50Hz, or to the resonance of the driver in open air. Then I opened the back chamber lid wide open. The resonance dropped to 43.7Hz. That was already something but I needed a few more Hz, and I would like to keep the primary resonance just under 42Hz. I decided to fill the back chamber with compressible foam (furniture foam) that shall virtually expend the chamber volume. Laying the chamber with furniture foam made the resonance to rise to 47Hz. I deseeded to keep the back chamber wide open for now with 43.7Hz of primary resonance.

I reset the playback to run from generator to preamp and give it a try to play music. Here it was – the bass was as it had to be in its shine. OK, what does it all means?

The events I describe are hugely educational.  As now I understand I did wrong the size of the back chamber - it had to be as I initially thought - the 3 sizes of the driver total volume. However, disagree with the criticism that I did anything wrong. What I did was the only methods I trust in loudspeakers design -following my own empirical results.  In the middle of the thread I did tell that the reflective condition in the listening room will be different then reflective condition of the basement and the horns will “read” the walls differently.  That is why I thought to make the adjustable back chamber – to fine-tune the chamber after the horns will be installed. What I did not know and did anticipated was that the amplitude of the differences between room and basement will be so huge. The super small size of the back chamber was absolutely right for the basement location but absolutely incorrect for the room where horns see no reflections of any kind. A 50Hz driver shooting toward to wall via a horn like mine experience throat reactance that made resonance drop to 24Hz. In open air however it the drop goes to 43.7Hz. This is indication that throat reactance is not only derivative of the air mass in the belly of the horn but also hugely moderated by the reflective characteristics of the room profile.  I generally know about but I have no idea that the degree of this moderation might be near 100%.

This experience of mine give a huge room of thoughts, explanations and doubts. Generally people do not talk, do not think, and do not question it. What you can see on-line is a person make a picture of his shiny horn but no one question how the horn sound and what ingredients made it’s sound. I question everything and I expose everything in this thread. One might by $40K Goto bass driver, or some exotic bass electromagnet and feel that hell all set but did you ever see those people ever question or publish own resonance frequency of  their horns.  Without know the bass horn resonance frequency and ability to moderate it for a give location a bass horn in pretty much unturned instrument that produces absolutely accidental result. I wish that this conclusion would be a legacy of my projects.

Anyhow, it turned out the in my horn, shooting in non-reflective room pushed the Vitavox driver to it’s limit.  The 43.7Hz is a bit short but the driver has no cone mass to go lower. I would like to find a way to drop it for 3-4 Hz lower but I am hesitant to glue anything to the driver. The back chamber is open and I need to devise some kind of thermal solution to unclose the driver that would not impact the resonance.

At this point the midbass channel is more or less operate properly. It sounds fine and here is the frequency response of left Midbass after a 70Hz low pass 6dB filter.

Midbass_progress_161.jpg

I might start to work on the midbass sound and on the midbass integration with Macondo. I need to mention that Macondo since I moved to the new room did not have any proper setup done. Now I need to review the enter Macondo in context of the Midbass channels and the ULF channel. Midbass now a lot of louder then Macondo, 7R resistor set it equal but I am not sure how I will reduce the Midbass volume. I would like to do it by dropping loading of the Midbass out transformer. I think it is too early to think about it, I need to revise many other things. For whatever it worth he is the Macondo’s left channel raw initial sweep, for each channel but without the Injection Channel. It sure will be see a lot of work and will be a lot of better.

 Midbass_progress_162.jpg

Now it will be interesting time – a lot of listening and a lot of thinking, No more wood cutting and dust.  That will be in way very interesting time – to make Melquiades, Macondo and the Room to sound properly. Even as now, listening what they do, I do see a lot of potential but it for sure need to have a lot of fine polishing of sound. As my carpenter do some minor cosmetics modification this well I will put the room treatment in the game and for now I am beginning to work on new crossovers.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 74
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 346
Post ID: 14631
Reply to: 14630
Closed box mass is agaisnt the horn load mass
fiogf49gjkf0d
what you did in your horn :

 you coupled your horn and you added mass on cone. then imagine when the cone tried to make an impulse it moves forward and then in back chamber something stops it from moving(air pressure+-) your driver had been stopped from moving from back and horn chamber.

I suggest make you back chamber as large as you can or just make it infinite chamber like or isolate the back roof side areas.
in my idea in infinite chamber you can avoid some unwanted resonances like that  125 315 hz( if its not due to your horn mouthing sizes )

and be patients =]

regards
10-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 347
Post ID: 14632
Reply to: 14631
Let get some practical perspective.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 unicon wrote:
what you did in your horn :

 you coupled your horn and you added mass on cone. then imagine when the cone tried to make an impulse it moves forward and then in back chamber something stops it from moving(air pressure+-) your driver had been stopped from moving from back and horn chamber.

Yes, I did, it is a normal practice in my view how to tune back chamber. I did nothing more then follows my own guidance how it need to be done:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2991

 unicon wrote:
I suggest make you back chamber as large as you can or just make it infinite chamber like or isolate the back roof side areas.

Come on unicon, get some practical perspective on the subject. The measurement of the horns in semi-assembled state in the basemen was an attempt to get an APPROXIMATE back chamber size, in order to guess what to build. Of cause it would be great to make the back chamber “a large as you can or just make it infinite chamber” but when you have a carpenter who ask you what the demotion of the specific surface shall be then we need to stop operate by imaginary concepts and be very practical. The whole idea to make a test chamber that I have built and to find it’s size when the resonance frequency would be too high and too low. It is what I did and from that I intimated the back chamber size. Who knew that the reflections in the basement were so effective? I would refer you to my old post I made 3 days before we started the project:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=13990   

I very much questioned how the resonance frequency will change at floor level where I could make experiments to the cathedral ceiling level. I thought it would be 5Hz difference, but it turned out to be 22Hz difference. Well, now I know, now even you know….

 unicon wrote:
in my idea in infinite chamber you can avoid some unwanted resonances like that  125 315 hz( if its not due to your horn mouthing sizes )

Hmmmm, I do not think so. With open back I do have infinite chamber, you can’t make bigger chamber then open air. I do not think that there are any correlations between the unwanted peaks you see on horn response and anything in back chamber. The peaks are most likely are room related and has nothing to do with horns and impedance on those frequencies is dead stable (I tested it). Sure I would need to find a way to deal with the peaks and most certainly with the 100Hz suck out but it will be a very different subject and it will hardly had anything with the back chamber. BTW, my carpenter did propose me last night to add a few feet of the back chamber; the way how the back chamber was designed we did have a provision to let it to grow. I declined the offer foe now. Let see how it goes…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 348
Post ID: 14633
Reply to: 13597
In search of Midbass crossover.
fiogf49gjkf0d
How lucky was I that I bough that digital crossover! I am think now how can I search for my crossover slope and find that this digital toy would make it very so much easy.  My major concern is to make sure that some frequency anomalies that I have for now shall not override my crossover point and crossover slope. With this digital toy I have run corrected response, compare it with uncorrected one and see how the channel will behave with different slope and at different crossover point.  I feel that I will end up with second order somewhere between 120 and 180 Hz but the future will show. Meanwhile I need to unpack that Velodine digital crossover, learn not to use it and find a good mono recording to test it; I have some recordings  in my mind….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 349
Post ID: 14634
Reply to: 14633
Good signs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Excellent news regarding this morning's discoveries.

jd wrote:

"...Are you able to say whether the problem is due to the horn position relative to the room, or to throat diameter relative to the driver diameter?..."

Yes, a stupidly phrased question, but the original requirement for such a small rear chamber (non-existent rear chamber) had me concerned that the driver-to-throat ratio was resulting in excessive throat reactance; the new large rear chamber requirement is an indication that this is not at all the case, which I take as a good sign.

Romy wrote:

"...Now I need to review the entire Macondo in context of the Midbass channels and the ULF channel. Midbass is now a lot louder then Macondo, 7R resistor set it equal but I am not sure how I will reduce the Midbass volume. I would like to do it by dropping loading of the Midbass out transformer..."

Is this because of the way you are driving them?

When testing my one completed mid-bass horn (AK151 into 40Hz Exponential with 8" throat), and powering it from an amp that drives everything from upper bass to HF, the output was not noticeably louder than the rest of the horns. You have DSET amps and I am guessing that you ran the new horns form the outputs that once ran your direct radiating line arrays; is this the reason for the "excess" volume?

"...Meanwhile I need to unpack that Velodine digital crossover, learn how to use it and find a good mono recording to test it; I have some recordings  in my mind…"

The Velodyne SMS 1 will allow you to do just about anything, up to 200Hz.

You will need some sort of video monitor to see what's going on and to configure the device (an old computer monitor works well).

You are right to be using only mono recording to evaluate the results when using the SMS 1 (stereo operation requires a second SMS 1). Sending a stereo signal to a single SMS 1 is no problem; the resulting mono output signal can then be sent to left and right channels (left and right power amps). Obviously, if listening to stereo recordings in this mode, the output of the mid-bass horns would have greater amplitude than when fed a proper stereo signal.

Be aware that the operator's manual for the SMS 1 is not clearly written. If using amps that potentially exceed the rated power handling capacity of the AK drivers, familiarize yourself with the SMS 1  for a day while using junk drivers; the SMS 1 used in conjunction with the low-excursion, sensitive AK drivers and enough power is a potential recipe for immediate voice coil meltdown.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
10-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 350
Post ID: 14635
Reply to: 14634
The problems with Velodyne SMS.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:

The Velodyne SMS 1 will allow you to do just about anything, up to 200Hz. 

I was the Velodyne crossover into the game yesterday. To my surprise it not as convenient as I thought. The high pass filter is not defeatable as it was promised in sales brochure’s technical description – it only could be set to 1Hz. The setting of crossover is not a real time thing but the calibration that require to save seating and then to rebut the unit sort of speaking. This makes to use this crossover as bit cumbersome. I am sure they mint it to be used in automated mode with microphone but if I do not use auto-calibration then it is a bit inconvenient. The out to menu to external TV is also I found a bit Moronic. There is not a lot of data presented in menu and I see why they did not use the internal display – it has 3 lines that do virtually nothing. All together, even I think it will allow me to do what I want but I would prefer an old fashion real time crossover with knobs. I have a local guy who has Pioneer D23, I might borrow it from his and combine it with Velodyne parametric EQ functionality.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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