manisandher wrote:

…. the PP2000s battery output is clearly superior to its regenerator output…

And if it is true then the PurePower people did already fuck up their own product.  The battery output and output from AC SHALL BE IDENTICAL or near identical, it is how it was before. If not then retun the unit as it does not do what it shall be doing.

I will investigate this moment thought, making it methodologically-clean and none ambiguous. The none-ambiguous part is impairs as I have 3 units and I need to runs everything from one with no odd connections.  I did heard last night very clear very bad difference in sound between battery output and AC powers output but there were many other variables in play. I will get rid of all variables and will let the true PP2000 to show what the newest version does nowadays.

Many of the expensive power cleaners and regenerators claim that they do not limit current.  None the less, many of these devices do seem to go into a swoon as current demands increase.  We all remember the days when these devices were widely considered suitable for front ends only.

Running 3 of these things off the same neutral/ground matrix could well make for blow-back noise, and it may be that more system power goes to noise as the load increases, or specific load variations may particularly stress these units.  I am aware that typical AC/DC "chargers" and DC/AC converters themselves are notoriously noisy, and I have wondered since the beginning if APS "success" involved some freakish twist on self-noise somehow winding up as "dither" that somehow "ameliorates" the most annoying noise "in the end".  Without knowing whether APS, themselves know why their own product "works" for hi-fi, I suppose we have to allow for the possibility that whatever used to "work" may yet have been "upgraded", so the things no longer "work" like they used to, if you get my drift.

Reading relevant posts, PP self problems seem to come to the sonic fore at about 60% load.  But we have heard little about what strong transients may draw or how load affects end use sound as the 60% load threshhold is approached.  Also, these are the first and ONLY posts I am aware of that deal specifically with rigorous analyses of the SOUND vs measured performance of single and/or multiple units in installations, so it's not like we can turn to The APS Archives for explication.

Of course we don't know APS "New Era" QA methods or emphases; but if units are yet transparent to wall power quality and if they make different sound from wall vs. battery power, then...

At least it happened within 30 days...  right?

Best regards,
Paul S

Paul S wrote:

Many of the expensive power cleaners and regenerators claim that they do not limit current.  None the less, many of these devices do seem to go into a swoon as current demands increase.  We all remember the days when these devices were widely considered suitable for front ends only.

Paul, I think it has absolutely nothing to do with current limiting.

Paul S wrote:

At least it happened within 30 days...  right?

Again, your attitude is highly bogus from my perspective. What is the difference if it 30 days or not 30 days. It is not about to get money back but about to make it to sound right. The PP2000 does very Sound running from butteries – it means the whole regeneration and filtration algorithm are perfectly fine. When I say perfectly fine I mean that it produces the sound that you have once in 5 year in your mains.

There is something presumably wrong in AC accepting stage that impact sound negatively. I do not know what it is, I did not talk with PurePower people and I do not even know if it is the case as it might some other factors of my connections that I do not know yet. It might be PurePower load the AC side with caps and that killed bass. Warn you that not a lot of people would know it or be able to understand/detect it. I do not think that PurePower does anything intentionally evil as you, Paul, wiling to present it. They are perfectly able to commit design blinders as much you are and I am sure that you did a lot of them. The point is that sonic impact of the design decision to sound is not so simple thing and I trust to myself more then I trust to PurePower people or to anybody else at this matter. I will look deeper this weekend into what new PP2000 does with lover bass. As I said in my post in the ULF thread – it might be the PP2000 to blame that I am not able to get lower bass from my bass towers as I use to.

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=15048 

it might be the PP2000 to blame or it might be not. The proof in the duding and it would be very simple to say: if the PP2000 demonstrate the differences in sound between running from buttery and running from AC then no one would need to convince anybody as the PurePower people would know themselves that they screwed up.

Paul, I think cooperation is much more effective attitude then ignorant denial. Trust me if you once heard the Sound from PP2000 what it does fine (like now from buttery) then you would for good lose your groundless skepticism and unwarranted cynicism.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Today turned the playback and I was surprise with gray and unexpressive bass. “What the hell?”-  I asked myself. There was absolutely nothing done to playback but I look like I lost bass. My initials sentiment was that at cold temperature my drivers in midbass horn in attic got too stiff. I check with my radio transmitter that I left in back chambers and it looks like both temperature and humidity were fine. Then I stick a scope in power line. The AC was pretty bad, not the worst I have seen here in West Woburn but bad, with a nice horizontal square atop of the wave. The wave after the PP2000 was fine of cause. So, what is the problem I wondered?  After some thinking I made a conclusion that the problem is most likely that PP2000 is semi-transparent to the AC problem of externals line, despite that it outputs a fine wave shape. The only experiments that I was able to do is to run PP2000 from buttery and compare it to what PP2000 does what it runs from AC. This time it was very sorry unfortunate test. As soon I shot down at all 3 PP2000 AC input and the PP2000 switch to own battery I immediately got my bass back. It was so obvious and so apparent that it count not be even second thought what was the problem. I was listed a few opening bars of Tchaikovsky’s Second Movement of the 5th symphony (guess by who?). The opining cellos and basses has a lot of texture, transients and “strings bite” when playback runs from PP2000 buttery. As soon the PP2000 is switched to run from AC all bass colors are gone, the values of transients are filled with gray noise and the distinctions between the bass notes are virtually gone, Sound become boring like hell… So, something is certainly is very wrong.  The very first PP1500 unit that I got 3 years back had absolutely no difference in sound between running from butteries and running from AC. My unit #7 that was very nicely working in my home foe over a year had very minor between butteries and AC, practically negligible difference. Those 3 new units had huge between butteries and AC. I am afraid that PurePower peoples loaded capacious into the units to suppress the HF residual spikes that they had from buttery charger and accidently they killed the Sound of the things. I mention it because you will have the absolutely the same effect if you add capacitors to the primary of your PS transformer – shunting caps on AC lines kill bass… Anyhow, I am not convinces that it is the PP2000 fault – I have 3 units and I need to make the same test running everything from one units as 3 units give some ambiguity. However, there are very strong evidences that the last PP2000 has issuers. I might not detect it when my AC will be in better shape but today ether my AC or the PP2000 running not from butteries are truly horrible. It is sad as I did not sign for THAT.

The news are mostly bad. Sonically the new regenerators are dead. In facts the open power lines do sound better than new PP2000.  The two new units are the worst – they are hardly usable sonically, my old unit that PurePower update to the newest version is a bit better then the brand new PP2000 but it also is very far from what my old PurePower unit did.  Ironically all the PP2000 measures way better than the previous units…

Let me to explain what the new generation of the PP2000 does to sound. Pretend that sound is a stormy ocean with ocean waves are the tones of different colors and different amplitude. So, what the new PP2000 does is injects into the each valley between the wave some kind of white noise that make the tones-waves less animated and less considerable. It is not juts bass is none-existing with new PP2000 – it is the whole sound become less expressive and very boring.

Now, here is the interesting twist. When the new PP2000 runs from buttery then the above-mentioned effect is not there and sound is very fine – exactly how my old PP2000 sounded from AC lines.

So, what does it mean? It means that PurePower change something in the input side and did not tested sonically what they do. PP2000 has in input blocking filters, rectifiers, most likely DC-DC converter that drops voltage to buttery level and some logic around it. Something they changed that killed sound, I am sure that know what they did.

One mode ugly thing. My old updated PP2000 is much better than the other 2 new units, so I use the only one PP2000 to drive all my system. My old PP2000 was able to drive my old system from buttery for 20-30 minutes. The same unit “updated”, having the same 60% load shuts itself down after 2 minutes and 86% of buttery discharge, indicating that buttery is too low. So, ether the PurePower replaced buttery in my unit and put in a dead one (I very much doubt) of the new butch/version of PP2000 has faulty logic for buttery operation. BTW, the buttery operation logic is located on the same “input side” that is most likely responsible for major sound screw up.

manisandher wrote:

This is very disappointing to hear. But in a way, it makes little difference to me. I had decided that I would only use the PP2000 from battery power when listening to music (or making vinyl transfers to digital). I've been playing the system this morning and the battery was showing 45% after an hour or so. This was without the Berning connected to the PP2000. However, I don't think the battery usage meter (or indeed the I/O voltage meter) is particularly accurate. In any event, in battery mode, the PP2000 makes a worthwhile improvement to the sound of my system. Mani.

The PP2000 might sound from AC as good as from butteries. I assure you it can, if it were not then I would give up on PurePower long time ago.

I did not talk with PurePower yet and did not open the PP2000. Actually, I do not want to open. I have wasted too time on experimenting with PP2000, I do not want to waste more for debugging it.

Conceptually speaking. The sound of PP2000 from butteries is fine it means that PurePower did not change anything wrong in regeneration stage or post generation filters – that is the most important part. The PP2000 has no transformer but DC-DC converter with typical EMI filters. This is a good article that describes the setting:

http://www.mdipower.com/content/applicationnotes/html/dcpower06.htm

This is very typical, used everywhere and cost nothing nowadays. So, it is most likely that PurePower changed ether the DC-DC converter or the filters or even used other caps in the filters that might give the effect. I truly do not know what is responsible for it but. Generally as I said about the capacitance on primary AC side does it. I am sure if the PurePower review the list of the changed they did then the list of the suspect reason will be very small.

I wish the PurePower did sonic QA of their units after their modifications. For sure the new run of PP2000 is much better from any single perspective but it sound like shit when it runs from AC. I wish that PurePower get that people but it “for sound” and “sound “ it what was accidently killed by some recent changes.

Still, I am very sure that it was done by ignorance or negligence and most like the fix will be as simple as to bite off a wrong cap they put somewhere or something like this. The core of the PP2000 sound, the regenerator looks like was no affected and this is very good. I say “looks like” because I can’t not test the PP2000 ruining from buttery for prolong time as the damn unit runs from buttery for 2-3 minutes only. Mani, you said that your showing 45% after an hour. Mine shows 86% and then shuts itself down…  Mystery….

AOK_Farmer wrote:

I think what they did was to put filters, maybe just a simple capacitor on the AC side to try and reduce the noise that the units inject back into the ac mains. Perhaps they were getting complaints that the units worsened the electricity noise in the rest of the buildings they were installed in. I think it is probably a simple fix and you shouldn't get too worried.

• If I bought a case of a good wine and loved it and so then bought 3 cases of the next vintage because I was assured it was better year and the wine arrived and I tasted the wine and it was horrible I'd be upset also. 

• If I then found out that the winemaker had installed the filters into his winemaking because he got lazy or had complaints about a particle in the wine or he wanted his money back from the grapes faster I'd be more upset. 

• If the filter were imposed upon MY winemaking because a hose I bought had been *improved* with the insertion of filtering media into the hose structure and my entire vintage went through that hose before I realized it then it would be world shattering... Beyond that I think. The loss of a year. The time is more important that the money. The precious time we have. OK OK I understand.

Bud wrote:

Sounds like they have a problem with current capability of their chopper circuit, the one that takes the AC voltage and cuts it into very tiny slivers before rectifying it to DC. Obviously the AC reconstitution circuit has adequate current capability. Their filtration capacitors may not be large enough and the dielectric may not be fast enough.

I would like to shade light about what is doing on with PurePower PP2000. I know that the readers of my site have own brain, at least some of them, and they do not need me or anybody else to “shade light” on anything. Still, since I was the initiator of the resent PP2000 commotions I feel that my analyses of the situation would be warranted.

I know that there are people out there who feel disappointed about my report that my new PP2000 sounds wrong. Trust me, I feel more that disappointed. Still on the scale of larger picture I feel that what is going on now is one of the best things that happen to PurePower and even for the entire industry. I hope that the brainless idiots who visit my site to looks at the picture and pick some “buy” recommendations will stop to read right here. I hope that the idiot PurePower marketing director – Bob Rapoport will not read further as what will be further would require cognitive intellect – something that he does not have.

Ok, what is coming nest? I would like to offer you to think. I have noted the problem with sound when I detected that sound quality was very drastically change in my room from day to day and during the day. It did not happen before. Now I have 3 different power feeds in my house and they all sound different. When I connect PP2000 to any of those feeds then PP2000 sound bad but bad differently at each of my feeds. At the very same time my PP2000 sound fine from own battery.  Now remember Dima’s Avicenna regenerator? The Avicenna outputs a perfect power wave with ultra low distortion, still the Avicenna has no sonic impact to sound – playback with Avicenna and with Avicenna in bypass sound identical.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=9623#9623

Now many of you have many different regenerators and power treatment devices. You know that some of them work sometimes, in fact some of them work very well. But another day the main have different electricity as the devices is absolutely not effective.  You know for instance that PS Audio Power Plant does out MUCH better wave and my lower distortion abut has no good sound and very transparent to the bad problem that comes from mains.  Now, put all of what I described together. If you do then it would not be difficult to conclude that the problems with my new PP2000 regenerators have are not just that they “sound bad from AC” but that they suddenly stopped to be immune to the problems of electricity in mains. Anybody who played with electricity and sound does know that a perfect wave and low distortions  is not assurance of good sound, that there is “something else” in it. This “something else” got accidently broken in the new PP2000 and this broken “something else” made the new PP2000 do not disengage itself sonically to the bad electricity in main (Despite all DC flatting and regeneration is going on). Essentially the new PP2000 sound remarkably similar to the way how PS Audio Power Plant sounds…

Sure, it is desperately desirable to have someone to blame. Sure it is the bad and mean PurePower fuck up own regenerator. The reality is much more complicated. This “something else” is not known criteria and no one know what will affect that “something else”. In fact as now, the PurePower folks are working in emergency mode, making experiments and are trying to figure out what the problem might be. I guess that it might be tricky as the regenerator that they have in their test might inherent only quality of electricity that they currently have. We do not know what make sound to sound bad; we do not know that makes PP2000 to tune itself from that that “make sound to sound bad” – I am sure that it is not too pleasurable research. However, there is a fantastic catch in all of it. The key to the good electricity sound are in those few changes that PurePower accidently made recently.

So, why I feel that the things that are going on are best things that happen to PurePower and even for the entire industry? Have some imagination. Let pretend that reversing some changes PurePower discovered the reason why their PP2000 suddenly stopped to sound properly. This reason will be a “primer” for good electricity sound. Furthermore it very much might be the case that neither regeneration nor perfect wave even necessary for electricity to be good for audio and all that necessary is to have the “primer” injected in regular main. At least, if the PurePower will discover the primer then it will be assurance that their regenerators will be fine sounding in future. So, even I pissed and my playback is down, I am superbly enthusiastic about the result that it might lead to.  I do feel that what is might lead to is larger than PurePower and larger than me to fix my PP2000. Let hope that it all current situation will lead to some kind of true breakthrough discovery.

Bud wrote:

Yes. Their is a direct correlation between surge current and dielectric materials dielectric constant. The voltages in question are high enough to use a thick dielectric material and just as with the effective resistance of the capacitor, there is a time constant to energy release from a dielectric material. This would never be an issue in normal terms. I realize that you consider SET's to have a constant current draw and this is mostly true, but peak current draw may be quite a different thing with power hungry mid bass signals.

Bud wrote:

That the PP2000 cannot draw enough power to satisfy the system needs from the power line and it's essentially infinite reserve but can draw it from the battery pack says to me that there is a current limiting device in the AC to AC to DC supply circuit., before the battery float point which is at that DC point. Maybe a CLC filter would solve the problem.

Paul S wrote:

Yes, Bud, I agree that the most common problem for the full-tilt regenerators is that they begin to exhibit various problems in direct proportion to current demands.  And this seems to be true even when they are used "below capacity" as stated by mfg.  Is it mere coincidence that a good battery has very excellent curent delivery?  The PP that relies only on its battery is not "asking" anything from its "up" circuits; and I have wondered all along about how the PP switches from line operation to battery-only operation, and if there is any difference in the circuit, per se between "battery in circuit" use and "battery back-up" use.  There must be...

Paul S wrote:

Clearly, something is different when these PPs run off the wall power vs. when they run off their batteries.  Quite a few users have said the PP passes line noises when it is running from the wall, yet it is "quiet" when it is unplugged from the wall.  And now we hear that LF tansients are stronger/better when it's unplugged from the wall?  On the one hand, this "makes no sense".  On the other hand, sense must ultimately be made from this very situatuion.