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  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  148943  07-26-2004
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  46686  03-17-2010
02-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 51
Post ID: 12972
Reply to: 12970
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).
fiogf49gjkf0d
The above quotation from the New Testament, according to the most common interpretation which is of interest to me here, says we should  distinguish between temporal and spiritual authority. I am not religious but it just came to mind.

We seem to be back where it all started.

There is a fine line between having a righteous cause and being so intent on attacking an individual that it becomes a torrent of abuse and invectives from which no sensible discussion can emerge. There are many such lines of morality which are crossed in our everyday dealings with people for which we have no redress and to use your faculties, your website, and your readers, even if only in part for that purpose demeans yourself, your website and your readers, in my humble unsolicited opinion. That is all I have to say on this subject and may it die a well-deserved death.

If someone wants to discuss the hype that accompanies some products and the point where it ceases to be legitimate marketing practice and becomes a purposeful and reprehensible attempt at misrepresenting one's products and deceiving the customer, please start another thread. The subject of the Shroder tonearm clearly will never be productively scrutinised on this site, so leave it be, I would suggest, and do not use one lame pretext after another to restart it.
 

Regards
Rakesh
02-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 12973
Reply to: 12972
The truth about the Schroeder tonearms
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
If someone wants to discuss the hype that accompanies some products and the point where it ceases to be legitimate marketing practice and becomes a purposeful and reprehensible attempt at misrepresenting one's products and deceiving the customer, please start another thread. The subject of the Shroder tonearm clearly will never be productively scrutinised on this site, so leave it be, I would suggest, and do not use one lame pretext after another to restart it.

I think that everything that need to be know about the Schroeder tonearms does exist in this thread, I am not kidding.  Oxric, what kind scrutiny you expected? Do you expect somebody to install the arm on TT and report on it’s sound?  The very first question I would ask who was the person what was in his head (his sonic and cultural references). Let agree – you will not allow a blind driver to drive your daughter to ballet class.  (Here I am again with my associations!) You would demand some credential to the people who serve your, write? You for instance would not hire a contractor to fix your pluming if you know that the contractor associated with criminals who burglarize houses. Why in such case you feel that I am not a position to discard a company juts because they associated with audio-criminals and use filthy methods to propel own interests? Let me give you a clue – the answer is: they (Schroeder) most likely  have a need for this type product distribution. Think about it and then decide for yourself how much ”irrelevant” this thread to the Schroeder tonearms.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 53
Post ID: 12974
Reply to: 12972
Emotional involvement
fiogf49gjkf0d
It's amazing how so many intelligent people are unable refrain their emotions towards certain objects (and industry players in general, like manufacturers and reviewers), in the very "loving" attitude that prevents them from approaching and discussing the tool rationally.

But what puzzles me the most is why many of these hifi/camera/watch/car/gear "infatuated" people invest so much in defending "their" brand and so little in learning about the objects and putting them to judicious and creative use.

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
02-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 12975
Reply to: 12974
It has absolutely nothing to do with emotional involvement.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuga wrote:
It's amazing how so many intelligent people are unable refrain their emotions towards certain objects (and industry players in general, like manufacturers and reviewers), in the very "loving" attitude that prevents them from approaching and discussing the tool rationally.

But what puzzles me the most is why many of these hifi/camera/watch/car/gear "infatuated" people invest so much in defending "their" brand and so little in learning about the objects and putting them to judicious and creative use.

I think it has absolutely nothing to do with emotional involvement but it rather comes from sense of action. A person who knows what he or she does perfectly welcomes critiques and looks forward to use collaborate with critiques. Any creative person would love to see the result of his/her efforts seriously analyzed and seriously assessed. The seriousness of analyses is the key and what is done properly it is very valuable for anybody. In contrary, the people who are idiots and who have no sense of action or idea of what they do, they do not understand the critique’s objective and the analyses’ motives. In case of Jonathan Weiss and the majority of the similar to him empty-headed marketing idiots there is no slightest understanding what and why they do the things and what they are trying to accomplish. All that those people have is just repeating somebody else’s phases without even understanding what they are saying. This is why when they exposed to any besides slaverush ass-kissing they god scared as they need to spend 10 month of internet browsing to learn what the hell they were told. I am not kidding - this is how this work with people who are clueless.

BTW, this is not only in audio, this how the things works everywhere. With some of my former clients where I was in position to interview and to higher developers I never torched them a barrage of technically different questions. I usually asked a “loaded” question with a conditional (this is the key) answer, was given a single answer and informed the candidate that the answer was incorrect. Then I observed the reaction. Among all people the only people who truly knew what they know/do were able to rise protest defending own answer. What is always important to me was not the rightness of the answer but the LEVEL at which a candidate was able to defend his/her view and the depth of own horizons into which s/he able to dig defending own position. I am very proud by the fact the any single person I even hired was phenomenal, in many case better then myself.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-04-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
wjam


The French Alps
Posts 7
Joined on 01-04-2011

Post #: 55
Post ID: 15375
Reply to: 12975
Idiot by association
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,

The thing is.. Mr Schroeder is making a living and as such (being someone who needs to make a living in order to pay for stuff), he may from time to time have to associate himself with people that will facilitate this ability to help him pay for stuff in his everyday life.

If no-one made audio stuff for a living then you wouldn't be making a lot of music on your stereo.

So it has to be accepted that in business (cos the bills need paying) we use who we can to get our stuff about.   I  don't  make audio, (yet). I do make my own amps (And TT partially) & I'd like to sell my phono corrector but I think I might have to become associated with some one you'd disapprove of.  But I'd sure as hell prefer to sell my home brewed amps and be relatively enthusiastic than go sell stuff I don't care about at all.

By the way i like 6C45 PI and passive CR in between  I have a tx in and TVC out.  Works fine.  i also use VR tubes and current sources for each stage.  i like it.

I also have a shelter 501 and it sounded pure crap last week...  Like your 901, It was full of dust.

sorry slipped off topic there

ciao

WJAM
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 15673
Reply to: 12482
How much radical it gets?
fiogf49gjkf0d
If you feel that Schroder Tonearms are a bit radical from a perspective of the single point suspension then get this:

Tonarm_hanging_2.jpg

Tonarm_hanging_1.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 18905
Reply to: 15673
Schroeder Express
fiogf49gjkf0d
For those too impatient or too poor to wait for a bespoke Schroeder arm there is now a +/- ready-made "Schroeder" arm available:

http://dagogo.com/artemis-labs-ta-1-tonearm-review   Art Dudley also just reviewed a "regular" one for Stereophile (qv)...

After a quick perusal, I would like to add to it a threaded, quickly repeatable VTA adjustment; better, faster azimuth adjustment; and viable adjustable damping.  Add these features and optimized mfg processes/purchasing and - IMO - it might profitably sell (like hotcakes) at 2k (the new RB-300).

Paul S
03-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 58
Post ID: 19085
Reply to: 12970
Oswald Mills Audio & others
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The only valuable foe myself history lesson I took after Jonathan Weiss visit was Jonathan’s quote. It was where we were sitting in his listening rooms and I was making one of few very fruitless attempts to explain to him why his speaker to sound in the why they are.  Jonathan was listening but I saw that he did not understand what I was saying to him. I asked him and he discerned what I was talking about. He replied: “People out there might be very surprised to learn that I have absolutely no clue about audio and have very little understanding how the things work”. This was actually his quote and it is not taking out of context. Listening what he was saying about audio, listening about his interests in music and sound reproduction it was very self-evident that he is very accidental and very primitive participant of audio. If Mr. Schroeder feels that this level of people are a proper re-presentation of his views then anathema to Mr. Schroeder and he can stick his arms in own ass.

Romy the Cat


Some time ago I had a conversation with Jonathan Weiss from OMA, he promoted the Schroeder and Schick Arms as the two finest Arms in the world....I asked him why....I am wondering, that someone who manufacturers so expensive stuff, has absolutely no, and I mean no, nada, nothing, even below zero, knowledge about items he sells or promotes. Normally nothing shocks me, I survived the Schroeder BS and his DIY idiots and others in his dust, but Mr. Weiss is a class on its own. I gently asked, do you know, why this or that is/was done and what it is good for? He never replied or gave a kind of answer which was filled with a hair of information. Is he a member of a kind of religious group? Or are there really so many wealthy morons out there that he can sell and survive from his crap?
The next one, Mike Lavigne
When you read his promotion site (he is linked with Jonathan Tinn and supports him) you will remember that he owned a Rockport Sirius III Turntable and it was the holy grail. Also for his countless visitors who fell onto their knees too.
Anyway, he sold the table and the owner invited me for adjustment and for listening.
First, the table never worked the way it should. And it never did at Mike's Place, simply impossible. The reason is a design problem, the leads from the Arm are wrapped in a rubber hose, this rubber hose is stiff and creates so much resistance, that only the first three tracks were playable, then it stopped. No way to move the arm closer to the middle, it always moved to the outside based on that.
Maybe the rubber hose was soft when Payor built the table, but after all those years it became stiff (or was always stiff and Payor simply used high VTF cartridges...).
The only way to go on, was to increase the VTF to a very high level (min. 2.5 gr or much more) to force the cartridge to move on. This worked but it will kill the cantilever in very short time.
I was so astonished about that that I asked a few visitors from ML how much they did listen to the Rockport, did Mike ever played a full record or only the first 2 tracks?  ALL confirmed, ML never played a full side, he acted always as a DJ, a track here, a CD there, a Turntable here, another track there, changing the record....
I asked ML what he thinks about that defect sale and he swore he never realized that and at his place the Rockport was working without any problem....the new owner also bought the cartridge from ML he mainly used with the Rockport....it came back freshly from manufacturer rebuilt, with new suspension and cantilever .... :-) 
And honestly, even the first two tracks showed clearly that this Rockport is a thin, uninvolving, ultra boring reproduction unit, the new owner had an old Seiki too and even he (!) said after two tracks he will sell the Rockport asap ..... total waste of time....
So, I ask myself, what kind of guys are these visitors from ML when they aren't able to detect such a technical and sonically fact????Year in, year out they raved that turntable as an analog Altar and Mike never got tired to write that, too....
The more I read Romy's comments about audio people the more I have to agree with him. Even when he uses very drastic comments, from what I was able to check, he is always spot on.
Copulare Racks
that is a Manufacturer in Germany for ultra expensive stands. Steel frames with a piece of wood onto. Sometimes the wood is pure or filled with lead shot. I had a discussion with him because I was looking for a rack and without any reasons he explained me his design ideas...the the amp has to breathe...Electron flow into his super filled Board---rigid stand against amp shaking....and that his coral units (that is a kind of foam which gets hard after a while and can be painted, a platform which is sold for 1.5k$ each and which broke at my home) have a load capacity from 100kg but only when they are above a complete frame. After one broke, I knew why....
it is a foam which gets hard, a few cent per tube and 1.5k$ in sale..anyway, his explanations where so out of ANY knowledge that I asked him multiple times : Do you really believe this nonsense you are telling me for 20 minutes now???A stone somewhere in a desert has more knowledge about vibration control and material mix....
What kind of ultra idiot. I was so mad about that bullshit, I took his items, drove to the junk yard and threw all out.There is a lot of Bullshit in Audio... and Master BS...and then there are such guys....

Systems.jpg




Kind Regards
Stitch
03-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 440
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 59
Post ID: 19087
Reply to: 19085
North/South
fiogf49gjkf0d
Considering the minute amount of energy "created" (transformed) in a phono cartridge, perhaps some systems would truly benefit from geophysical orientation. Heck, in the days of expensive picture tube computer monitors there was a different tube for the northern and southern hemisphere. Maybe there IS an audio Mekka?
My system does not seem to have the resolution to tell, but that could have to do with the german steel embedded concrete used for building - or the orientation of the moon during test periods........


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 60
Post ID: 19097
Reply to: 19085
BetterAudioClub
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:

The only valuable foe myself history lesson I took after Jonathan Weiss visit was Jonathan’s quote. ...He replied: “People out there might be very surprised to learn that I have absolutely no clue about audio and have very little understanding how the things work”. 

That is the Forum from Oswald Mills Audio

Seems, he studied GoodSoundClub carefully and thought carefully about the name of his forum .... :-)


Kind Regards
Stitch
03-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 19098
Reply to: 19097
Well, he can die with his little secret.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
Seems, he studied GoodSoundClub carefully and thought carefully about the name of his forum .... :-)
 Yes, he did studied GoodSoundClub VERY carefully and for number of years but it not important. What is important is that whatever the given character says, does or thinks is not the subject of his mind, awareness or even alertness but a bunch of brainless plagiarisms. They are not even plagiarisms as he does not just say whatever he heard before and attribute it to itself. That would be kind of OK. What that sick fuck does is even uglier.  What he does is some kind assessment of his surrounding and pitching to the crowd stolen concepts, ideas or juts phrasings that he not truly understands himself. It is spectacularly funny how he can take a notion that he absolutely no idea what it is all about and butter it to the circle of his followers. The notion put the roots in there and then he try to capitalize on it by openly prostituting on the subject. I have seen it many time in that character and had many reports from his circles. To me this behavior is disgusting. When you actually restrict him with a subject that he has no ability to still from anybody else and to resale it as his own “wisdom”  then you witness something absolutely retarget. I remember what I visited him I brought a recording of the Pathétique symphony. He did not hear it before, which is fine and I ask him what impression the symphony left in him after we listen it together. The guy was one to one with his pathetic inner-himself and there was no “call to a friend”. So, do you know what the idiot answer me? He said “They have to many violins in the symphony”. That level of stupidity he posses what he does not sell the subject that was coverer for him by others.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-18-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 62
Post ID: 19100
Reply to: 19098
"Too many notes, Mozart"
fiogf49gjkf0d
 “They have to many violins in the symphony”

...at least he is in a good company Wink



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
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  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  148943  07-26-2004
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  46686  03-17-2010
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