GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	17146
Reply to:	17144

Now we are taking!

mem916 wrote:
I never tried the Onyx. I had an Urushi, then a Jade, and now a Coralstone. No I didn't buy any of them in the US so I paid a lot less than the crazy retail prices people throw around. I only know one person personally who did try an Onyx and he didn't like it either. Not sure what the deal is with that one but I have enjoyed every Koetsu I have owned and am very happy with the Coral. I haven't tried the diamond cantilever option but I would like to.

Anyway, here is a sample recording made I just uploaded if you guys would care to listen and give me feedback.

Details are as follows:

This is a sample from about 8:37 in on the second side of a re-issue of Mercury Living Presence SR90226 (Stravinsky's Firebird). I can't remember if it is Classic or Speakers Corner.

Koetsu Coralstone Platinum
Versa Dynamics 1.2 running 75psi at the arm and 25" of vacuum.
Aesthetix IO Signature
Tascam DV-RA1000HD (recorded at 24/192 and then cut down to 24/96 for posting)

Cables used were Purist Audio Dominus XLR between the TT and the IO and then straight into the balanced inputs on the Tascam. The inputs on the Tascam were set to -6.0 dB.

This is a FLAC file. (Lossless compression.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?n31sdy07wwrgi4v

Mark

Mark,

thank you very much for your post. I did listen the file and I do like it – quite wonderfully sound. Unfortunately those uploaded, even they give a some impression about the capacity of the entire analog setup but they do not let to make a judgment about cartridge independently. For woatver it worth I can only assure you that my Onyx did not give me even close to the sound that you are getting from your Koetsu.

If you would like I can A/D the same Firebird fragment from the same LP playing at my analog setup. At my playback it sounds slightly different and it might be mutually educational, at least it was for me.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

PS: BTW, I have a side note. What you did is very seldom illustration of how the internet communication on the subject shall be. There are a lot of idiots out there who juts run ignorant mouths with superficial opinions. You position was different. You witnessed opinion that you are apparently disagree and you presented your case. Not the BS literature as usually but demonstrate the actual result. I wish all internet audio people embrace the same practice.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	27
Post ID:	17147
Reply to:	17146

Koetsu coral

Hi Romy,

Yes I would love to hear the same segment from your analog setup for comparison.   I think it would be very interesting even though there are so many variables that it probably doesn't tell me much in an absolute sense.

I don't really disagree with your opinion (and others opinions) about the Onyx. And honestly I don't have enough experience with competing cartridges to even disagree with people who say "all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". I have never had the resources or inclination to spend the time comparing cartridges. This summer I did try to compare the Jade to the Coralstone but A) the Coral wasn't broken in and B) by the time I could get the Jade set up and adjusted right I had started to forget what the Coral sounded like. To me the Coral was already sounding better but that could have been my "wishful thinking". I only have one tonearm on the Versa so its a real pain to compare cartridges.

So now after the Coral has broken in I can say that the sound I am getting is much much better than it was when I had the Jade in the system. But this doesn't mean anything in reality since I have changed other things too!   I have since sold the Jade so I can't go back and compare now.

The odd thing about Koetsu is that they claim there is no other difference between the Jade and the Coralstone besides the body itself.   It is hard to believe that the sound could be so different but it seems to be! Perhaps Onyx is just the "wrong" material to use?

Thanks for your time. I agree there is a lot of stuff thrown around without any really productive results. People get their pride and egos involved and get upset too easily, I think. Here I had a simple way to show that at least one Koetsu doesn't sound terrible.

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	17149
Reply to:	17147

Let see how it goes.

mem916 wrote:
Hi Romy,

Yes I would love to hear the same segment from your analog setup for comparison.   I think it would be very interesting even though there are so many variables that it probably doesn't tell me much in an absolute sense.

I don't really disagree with your opinion (and others opinions) about the Onyx. And honestly I don't have enough experience with competing cartridges to even disagree with people who say "all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". I have never had the resources or inclination to spend the time comparing cartridges. This summer I did try to compare the Jade to the Coralstone but A) the Coral wasn't broken in and B) by the time I could get the Jade set up and adjusted right I had started to forget what the Coral sounded like. To me the Coral was already sounding better but that could have been my "wishful thinking". I only have one tonearm on the Versa so its a real pain to compare cartridges.

So now after the Coral has broken in I can say that the sound I am getting is much much better than it was when I had the Jade in the system. But this doesn't mean anything in reality since I have changed other things too!   I have since sold the Jade so I can't go back and compare now.

The odd thing about Koetsu is that they claim there is no other difference between the Jade and the Coralstone besides the body itself.   It is hard to believe that the sound could be so different but it seems to be! Perhaps Onyx is just the "wrong" material to use?

Thanks for your time. I agree there is a lot of stuff thrown around without any really productive results. People get their pride and egos involved and get upset too easily, I think. Here I had a simple way to show that at least one Koetsu doesn't sound terrible.

Mark

Sure, I will record a fragment but I need to find out how to do it as I do not A/D records usually and my A/D converters are not equipped to deal with very high output voltage of my phonostage. In a past I A/D only “soft” sounding records, with the Firebird I am sure it will be 4-5dB over 0dB and I need to figure out how to eat this gain. I think it would worth to match the recording levels of my file to your file. I do not know how to do it but I will come up with something…

You might understand how people come with statements that “all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". If you pay $5K for a needle that does sound like garbage then you do not need more prove, do you? Nevertheless, the example you posted sound nothing like a playback has any problems with cartridges. In fact it was very nice. I am very interested to hear how my file would sound from the same LP and I would be very interested to compare the notes after I record the file.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	29
Post ID:	17150
Reply to:	17149

Sounds like fun!

Yes you don't want to go over 0 "dBFS" for sure. In fact it is not good to even hit 0 dB from what I have read in an AES paper. Something odd happens when you play it back (I can't remember the details). I shoot for peaks at -2 or -3 dBFS when I record digitally. The sample I sent you peaks at -1.8.
Some people do post processing to "normalize" up but I am skeptical of any post processing so I take the time to adjust the input level. The Tascam
has built-in attenuators to allow this. However I got to thinking that perhaps they are not very high quality so I did another pass at the Stravinsky this morning with the Tascam's inputs bypassed. Instead I used the Callisto to attenuate the signal from the IO down to roughly the same input level. Later I will post a link to the new file. The connection between the Callisto and the Tascam is an un-balanced (RCA) Dominus cable. Everything else was the same so if they sound different it should be informative.

For your recording don't worry about getting the same exact level as my file. What I can do is analyze it with a program that will tell me what to do with my volume controls to match within a dB or so when I play it back. I playback through an Audio Aero Capitole MK II which has analog volume controls an is pretty accurate in it's display of "dB's of attenuation" and does half dB steps.

Certainly I understand why people would be upset if they paid good money for a cartridge and then didn't like it. I think I was lucky that I didn't try the Onyx first. I think if I was running Koetsu I would discontinue that model. However some people must actually like it.

I'm not saying this was the case for you but perhaps others have not adjusted the azimuth and VTF properly on their Koetsus. I had a hell of a time for a while with my Jade. It was distorting on various recordings that I was *sure* had not sounded that way before. I finally tracked it down to my crappy digital stylus force gauge that was reading half a gram heavy! I got rid of that thing and bought a Sure balance beam type stylus force gauge. I noticed with the Coral that getting the azimuth set very close to perfect helped a lot too. I'm not one of those guys who obsesses over VTA but occasionally I will play with it too if I hear something "not quite right".

I'm interested to hear your file and compare notes too. And naturally if you are ever in my area let me know, I could play the LP for you on my system. (I live in San Diego).

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	30
Post ID:	17152
Reply to:	17150

Second pass at Firebird

OK here is another take of the same section. This time with the Aesthetix Callisto. I set the Tascam's inputs to "bypass" and used the volume controls on the Callisto to attenuate the signal to about the same level as the previous recording. The peaks are different by about 1 dB. So when you play the old file against this new you my want to adjust accordingly.

first sample file peak: -1.80 dB
This file peak: -0.96 dB

I will let you tell me which one you like better. Smile

http://www.mediafire.com/?qaao4t9rg6aitoq

Cables between the Callisto and the Tascam were Purist Dominus RCA.

No post processing. Originally recorded at 24/192 and then re-sampled to 24/96.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	31
Post ID:	17154
Reply to:	17152

24/96 vs. lp

So I gave a serious listen to the vinyl source vs. the digital playback to try to get some idea of how much damage the AtoD -> DtoA does. I matched the volume levels as well as I could using my ancient radio shack SPL meter. To me it seems that the conversion in and out of digital decreases the sense you get from the vinyl of the hall reverberant "cues" that fool you into thinking you are listening to the live event. It doesn't eliminate these cues completely but decreases them. Also the vinyl seems to have a better "grip" on the sound, like it's more in control, more confident and assertive if that makes sense. It's not that the digital copy sounds horrible, just that in direct comparison it sounds not quite as real and lively. Its fine for playing around with like we are using it for to send samples to others, but there is no way I would ever archive my entire vinyl collection to digital and sell my records, turntable, etc. Not with the Tascam anyway.

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	32
Post ID:	17155
Reply to:	17152

Kitty is chasing the firebird.

Below is the very same fragment from the very same LP (also not original but re-issue). The file is 88/24, FLAC compression.

http://www.mediafire.com/?bpgxdbru87fkx8x

The sequence of signal is following:

Ortofone Jubelee in SME 3012R on Micro Seiki 8000
Dominus B
“End of the life phonostage” (http://www.goodsoundclub.com/EndOfLifePhonostage.aspx)
Dominus B
Placette Active line state, “tape out” output
No Name experimental cable (have no extra RCA-RCA good cable)
RCA to XLR adapter from Radio Shake
4db attenuator
Pacific Microsonic Model 2
The sound of my and your files is VERY different in any aspect: tonal, dynamic, imaging, articulation etc… In fact the sound that you have is what more or less I was promised I will be getting from Koetsu but my Onyx was not near close to it.

BTW, how wonderful it would be if someone host a site what would be 100s be of uploads of the same work with all imaginary cartridges. I wrote about it but I can’t find it now at my site.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	33
Post ID:	17156
Reply to:	17155

Downloading now

Excellent! Looking forward to hearing it. I have been curious about Micro Seiki's but have never even seen one, let alone heard one.

A site like you describe would be very useful if it was done in a controlled fashion. The system to make the recordings would have to remain the same except for the cartridge and the poor guy running it would have to be very meticulous in setting up each cartridge, playing the same record over and over, cleaning it between cartridges, etc. Definitely not a job I would volunteer for!

There are a few sites where people post "needle drops" but naturally it's all different music, all different systems, some "de-click", some don't etc. pretty much useless for comparing different cartridges.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	35
Post ID:	17158
Reply to:	17157

Hmm.. hate to ask, but

Can you re-do yours in 24/96 kHz? I would like to make sure the difference I am hearing are not do to sample rate conversion issues.

I am playing both files from the Tascam via coax digital output to my Audio Aero. BUT the Audio-Aero upsamples everything fed to it to 24/192 kHz and 96 to 192 is a much simpler (2x) conversion than 88.2 to 192.

By the way I am glad you shipped me the file in 88.2 since it forced me to play my file back from the tascam instead of from my laptop. It seems that the laptop's toslink output is not nearly as good as the coax from the tascam. Now I have to re-evaluate the tascam vs Vinyl comparison I just did. After I do a direct comparison to make sure. Very interesting stuff! Unfortunately I have to take a break to bake a pie for a party I am going to later tonight.

Thanks for going to the trouble to record your copy and sending it to me!

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	37
Post ID:	17160
Reply to:	17159

Nah it's ok - you're not being a jerk!

I figured you had a good reason for going with 88.2. I have already re-assembled everything for playback. Tomorrow I will put it back for recording and do a 24/88 recording the same way I did the previous one. It will be interesting for me anyway to compare playing back my two files (24/88 and 24/96) through the Audio Aero to see if I notice any ill effects from the upsampling to 192 of the 88 file. I cannot turn off the upsampling that the Audio Aero does but I can play the same format of file, which seems to make it a reasonable comparison.

By the way you got your levels set well... almost exactly the same as my file. (-0.79 dB vs -0.96 dB)

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	38
Post ID:	17161
Reply to:	17160

Listening the files. Brief comments.

The whole presentation of sound is very different with your and my file. Your file is very lush sounding. It is very pleasant but a bit too euphoric for THIS music. My file is much more dynamic (if comes from my transformer) and in the way this dynamic range literally tear apart imaging. The speakers need to be positioned different to handle this dynamics. My file has more colors and the colors are a bit more aggressive. This is from my cartridge in my view that has some sort of swift colors, something that I get accustomed. I do like the pastel nobility of your cartridge, to get that pastel, lash and luxury nobility was the reason I was buying my Onyx but it did not sound even remotely useful. At my file you will see a lot of very finer micro-dynamic, all that strings bite and so on. The articulation of individual instruments and groups is much more expressive at my file, I do not know what is responsible for it. My file a bit zippier and I do not like it. I know where it come from and I could easily get read of it during play (demagnetize the cartridge) but I did not do it. Your file has better special presentation; it comes with some compression territory I presume.

Generally I feel that your file is more organically balanced then my, more musical. My file makes sound a bit too barbaric. My problem is that I kind of like Stravinsky this way. Ironically, playing the more moderate and more conservative music I feel that “barbarism” doe not manifest its, in fact it always good to have some of it to spare.

The result I observe are pretty much what I expected and it was what I meant saying that my analog setup shall sound different. I do have Ortofon SPU Classic that I play when I would like to have the type of sound that your playback demonstrated. Unfortunately I feel that Ortofon SPU Classic is a bit too week needle. I think Koetsu a bit rehabilitated in my eyes. I still among all Koetsu I would like to hear the Vintage Rosewood that a friend of my told and somebody had mention in this thread before. I think that Rosewood made name for Koetsu and then they just keep produce average cartridges and milk the Koetsu Rosewood success. Well, what make them different from anybody else?

I wish somebody with Koetsu Rosewood would do own vision of the file. It is not that I am looking for cartridges but it would be interesting for educational purpose.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	39
Post ID:	17162
Reply to:	17161

Interesting analysis

I'm taking a break from baking. I didn't listen nearly as long to the files as you have so I will not give any analysis yet. It did occur to me that I better send you my 24/88 file once I record it since you are having to do sample rate conversion somewhere to play my 24/96 file on your system. Unless you have no problems with the 48/96 clock on playback?

I am glad that you like some things about my file. Of course all of this is very interesting and educational but everyone has different things they look for in a system and different preferences. It is a very fun hobby! And yes perhaps some more people will jump in and post versions from their systems if they happen to have this record. I chose it because it seems to be popular, I love the music, and it is very well recorded. So presumably quite a few in this hobby will also have copies.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	40
Post ID:	17163
Reply to:	17162

Koetsu theories

I have a different theory about Koetsu. I think they did make a name for themselves with the Rosewood like you say, but and then kept fiddling and experimenting with different materials. The lacquer coating on the Urushi, for example, then the platinum magnets. And then they decided to play with stone bodies. I think they started with Onyx and then moved on to other stones. Some were hits (like the Coral and the Jade, and I suspect the platinum magnets), others were disasters. It would be interesting to hear them all, of course. But the thought of all that cartridge setup and meticulous serious listening gives me the shudders.

Mark

10-16-2011

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	41
Post ID:	17166
Reply to:	17161

My order of preference...

1) Romy's file
2) Mark's 2nd file
3) Marks' 1st file

I agree with Romy's comments. Especially that his file sounds a lot more resolving - the "very fine micro-dynamics" that Romy talked about. I strongy suspect this is down to his ADC (having owned the same machine myself until very recently). Good as the Tascam might be, it doesn't sound like it can match the Model Two.

Comparing your 2nd file with your 1st Mark, it seems pretty obvious that the Tascam's attenuators, when used, are having some sort of HF filtering effect on the sound. Not at all unpleasant, but the sound becomes a bit more 'samey' with less differentiation between textures. Transients seem to suffer also, becoming more 'rounded' in the process. The pre helps, but maybe you're then coming up to the limits of the Tascam's capabilites...?

But all three files are very, very listenable... and a testament to how good vinyl can sound when done well. And to me, Romy's file doesn't sound at all 'barbaric'. Ever so slightly 'edgy' maybe, but not barbaric. In any event, I like it a lot and would be quite happy if I could get my very modest vinyl rig up to this calibre.

One thing I'd like to know from Romy though. Mark mentions that his recordings do not quite match the original vinyl. How do your 24/88.2 recordings sound vs. the original vinyl? I'm asking because I'd like to know how closely I'm hearing your vinyl rig.

Mani.

10-16-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	42
Post ID:	17167
Reply to:	17166

A few comments about Mani post.

manisandher wrote:
I strongy suspect this is down to his ADC (having owned the same machine myself until very recently). Good as the Tascam might be, it doesn't sound like it can match the Model Two.

This is the subject that I was thinking about to but I have no realistic answer to it. Pacific is very good A/D converter but I have no point of reference how it different from Tascam. If I knew the sound of Tascam then I would be able to extrapolate the sonic differences. I had Tascam machine a few years back but at that time I was trying to engage it as CD transport. The unit if I remember correctly had D/A and A/D on-board but I did not try to use them. So, the contribution of A/D is a absolutely not know. Pacific might be very good and much better then Tascam in numerous aspects but those aspect might not be the specific aspects that make the differences between those specific files. I am very sure that the difference between the converters is there – how to factor-in the difference I have no knowledge.

manisandher wrote:
And to me, Romy's file doesn't sound at all 'barbaric'. Ever so slightly 'edgy' maybe, but not barbaric.

Well, my definition of 'barbaric' might not be your definition of 'barbaric'. I am know to attribute to worlds the meaning that I would like them to be and according to my current intention or even mood. You Brits will not understand it as to understand it you need to hear a lot of Yiddish in childhood. Anyhow, when I said 'barbaric' in this case I mend the wild and unpredictable character. In the Mark’s file the instruments and the instrumental groups sounded to my ears very luxury but subdued. In my file the each note was presented as it was showing off and the difference between the individual notes, would it be dynamic of tonal was much more highlighted.

manisandher wrote:
One thing I'd like to know from Romy though. Mark mentions that his recordings do not quite match the original vinyl. How do your 24/88.2 recordings sound vs. the original vinyl?

I was not able to make a digital transfer the sound identical to LP playing direct. The file that made is technically compromised as it used the cable before A/D that I do not approve but I have no spare cables.

manisandher wrote:
I'm asking because I'd like to know how closely I'm hearing your vinyl rig.

Do you have Macondo and Milqs? :-)

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-16-2011

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	43
Post ID:	17169
Reply to:	17167

Very far from Macondo and Milqs

Romy the Cat wrote:

manisandher wrote:
I'm asking because I'd like to know how closely I'm hearing your vinyl rig.
Do you have Macondo and Milqs? :-)

Not yet!

But I'm wondering how close the sound I'm currently getting from your digital file would be to the sound I'd get, were you to fly your whole vinyl rig (from cartridge to phono stage) over to my place. Of course, my electrostatics and transistor amp would sound totally different from your Macondo and Milqs... though my Berning SET and AKG headphones might sound closer. (Incidentally, I have 'One Hundred Years of Solitude' sitting right in front of me on my desk - really ought to make the effort to read it. It's my wife's favourite book ever also.)

I suppose what I'm really wondering is how far the sound of my current very, very modest vinyl setup is to your vinyl setup. I mean, I can just about live with my current vinyl setup... but yours, I'd be very, very happy with, I think... based on the file you posted. I just wondered if I could use your digital file as a benchmark were I to audition a few new vinyl rigs.

Mani.

10-16-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	44
Post ID:	17171
Reply to:	17155

In response to request for more my transfers.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Below is the very same fragment from the very same LP (also not original but re-issue). The file is 88/24, FLAC compression.

http://www.mediafire.com/?bpgxdbru87fkx8x

This morning I received requests to upload the entire Firebird and to follow it up with more of my LP transfers. Well, I do not have a whole Firebird as it is not the work that I care too much. I made this digital read specifically for the Koetsu incident.

However, I might make it available a transfer of enter movements of the music that I like. Hey, how about everyone would make a digital transfer of a piece that they like and make it available?

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-16-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	47
Post ID:	17174
Reply to:	17172

Firebird sample at 24/88.2

OK, I finally have my sample re-recorded in a format matching your file. Details are the same as before. (I set the Tascam inputs to "bypass" and used the Callisto to attenuate the signal. Levels are the same.) The only change is as I was swapping cables around I noticed how disgusting the connectors on the Dominus RCA looked and decided to clean them. The Tascam recorded at 176.4 and I cut it down to 88.2.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3yf335okxc88san

I will use this file to compare directly to your 88.2 file on my tascam after my headache goes away and give a report on what differences I hear.

Enjoy!

Mark

10-16-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	48
Post ID:	17175
Reply to:	17174

What is the purpose of this exercise?

mem916 wrote:

OK, I finally have my sample re-recorded in a format matching your file. Details are the same as before. (I set the Tascam inputs to "bypass" and used the Callisto to attenuate the signal. Levels are the same.) The only change is as I was swapping cables around I noticed how disgusting the connectors on the Dominus RCA looked and decided to clean them. The Tascam recorded at 176.4 and I cut it down to 88.2.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3yf335okxc88san

I will use this file to compare directly to your 88.2 file on my tascam after my headache goes away and give a report on what differences I hear.

Enjoy!

Mark

Mark, I do not think it is really necessary to continue this exercise in context of Koetsu thread. We are not perusing any abstract “better” digital transfer and the whole purpose of your initial file was to demonstrate that Koetsu might deliver fine sound. Your very first file did demonstrate it. I do not see any purpose trying to detect difference between 88K and 96K file. When I play you file I did it in natural 96K, so for my purpose it was sufficient. BTW, I would like to note that you still posted not the raw file buy the result of down-conversion from 175 to 88 – wish is a big “no-no” in my books… I am not looking to buy Koetsu but your original file allready did show that Koetsu might do fine job.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-16-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	49
Post ID:	17176
Reply to:	17175

Ahh. your part is done then

Hi Romy,

I miss-understood. I did not realize you were able to play my file in "natural 96K". Since I am not able to play your file in "natural 88.2" I needed to make another recording before I can really compare yours to mine since my CD player upsamples at 4x48K and I am concerned about artifacts possibly introduced when going from 88.2 to 192. I cannot turn this upsampling off with my CD player.

As for downsampling from 176.4 to 88.2 it is a very simple operation (throw away every other sample). I do not see why this should be a problem. downsampling from 196 to 88.2 is not a simple operation so I would not do that (for the same reason I cannot be confident of playing your 88.2 on my upsampling CD player.

There is no need for you to download my latest file as I don't see any reason to compare 88.2 to 96 either.

I am not looking to buy an Ortophon or a Micro Seiki either but am still curious to know for sure how your file compares to mine. I want to be sure the differences I hear are not due to my cd player introducing issues in your file that it does not introduce in my file. Also out of curiosity I want to see if my hunch is correct about it introducing any differences (which I can do by comparing my 88.2 file to my 96 file).

Best Regards,

Mark

Romy the Cat wrote:
mem916 wrote:

OK, I finally have my sample re-recorded in a format matching your file. Details are the same as before. (I set the Tascam inputs to "bypass" and used the Callisto to attenuate the signal. Levels are the same.) The only change is as I was swapping cables around I noticed how disgusting the connectors on the Dominus RCA looked and decided to clean them. The Tascam recorded at 176.4 and I cut it down to 88.2.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3yf335okxc88san

I will use this file to compare directly to your 88.2 file on my tascam after my headache goes away and give a report on what differences I hear.

Enjoy!

Mark

Mark, I do not think it is really necessary to continue this exercise in context of Koetsu thread. We are not perusing any abstract “better” digital transfer and the whole purpose of your initial file was to demonstrate that Koetsu might deliver fine sound. Your very first file did demonstrate it. I do not see any purpose trying to detect difference between 88K and 96K file. When I play you file I did it in natural 96K, so for my purpose it was sufficient. BTW, I would like to note that you still posted not the raw file buy the result of down-conversion from 175 to 88 – wish is a big “no-no” in my books… I am not looking to buy Koetsu but your original file allready did show that Koetsu might do fine job.

10-16-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	50
Post ID:	17177
Reply to:	17176

Digital is good up a point, at least in my hands.

mem916 wrote:
I miss-understood. I did not realize you were able to play my file in "natural 96K". Since I am not able to play your file in "natural 88.2" I needed to make another recording before I can really compare yours to mine since my CD player upsamples at 4x48K and I am concerned about artifacts possibly introduced when going from 88.2 to 192. I cannot turn this upsampling off with my CD player.

Yes, I can play and can record everything. However, I do not have in my A/D that I used the 48X recording modes configured in the way how I would like them to be. It is not difficult to do but I would like do not do it as I against the 48K clock and with no one use it. So, naturally I would like do not breed the 48X file.

mem916 wrote:
As for downsampling from 176.4 to 88.2 it is a very simple operation (throw away every other sample).

It is correct only theoretically. In practice I never was able to change sample rate twice with destroying Sound, remind you that Pacific is the best rate converter the I ever see and it still does not it trouble-free. If you read my site more thenj you will learn that I advocate digital hygiene: is a file was ever DSP touched after conversion then it is not the file but a digital surrogate.

manisandher wrote:
Mark mentions that his recordings do not quite match the original vinyl. How do your 24/88.2 recordings sound vs. the original vinyl?

Mani, not I can answer your question more accurately. I just spend 2 hours trying to record “my file”, or the fragment of LP that I very much like. I made 4 different transfers and not of them, even remotely sounded like playing the LP direct. In fact it hurt my ego a bit as I thought that it shall be closer. Nope it was not. Interesting that I use not very good LP and digital still was not able to handle it. Perhaps I need better converter, or better interface card or better recording program… I do not know. Thankfully I record mostly FM where my level digital can do very fine job. With LP it looks like it does not. T was the very same finding the I had before when I was trying to do tape and LP transfer. Perhaps I need to go 4X but I do not think that it will make deference.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche