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10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 226
Post ID: 22110
Reply to: 22108
About 41Hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
 xandcg wrote:
Romy,

In general thinking, I mean in average, a horn to be used with ALE P160 or GOTO SG-146LD with a mouth of 2.8m x 2m (5.6m²) or 110" x ~79", is appropriated to going down to how many cycle, considering full mouth? What should be the length?

Thanks!

Full mouth at 5.6m3 is about 41Hz.  Quarter wavelength of 40Hz is 2.15m so you would need a horn longer than that.

10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 227
Post ID: 22111
Reply to: 22110
Thanks.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Many thanks!

How do I calculate horn mouth, cycles and length?



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 228
Post ID: 22112
Reply to: 22111
It is not difficult
fiogf49gjkf0d
 xandcg wrote:
Many thanks!

How do I calculate horn mouth, cycles and length?

The required full-mouth radius of a circular horn is given when the circumference of the mouth equals the full wavelength of the frequency in question.  So given that 40Hz has a wavelength of 860cm, the Radius = 860/pi/2 = 136.9cm.  Calculate the area of a circle (Area = pi.rad.rad) and then you have the full mouth area (in this case 58855cm2).  From there you can divide that area any way you like (within reason) to get the square or rectangular or other dimensions of a full mouth horn. 

To horn load you need a horn with a length that is at least as long as a quarter of a wavelength of the lowest frequency you want to load.  So, 40Hz = 860cm wavelength, so the horn needs to be at least 215cm (860/4) long.  From the perspective of sensitivity gain a longer horn is better and maximum efficiency is gained when the horn is one wavelength long.

Regarding full-mouth vs half-mouth vs quarter-mouth horns, they can all be used in different circumstances.  Full-mouth when radiating into open space; half mouth when radiating into 2pi space (i.e. along a ceiling or a floor); quarter-mouth when radiating into 1pi space (i.e. when radiating along two surfaces such as a wall and a floor).

Hope this makes sense.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 229
Post ID: 22113
Reply to: 22112
Just right now!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Anthony,

I was figured it out just right now. Your reply was a very good confirmation. Big Smile

But now a few more questions come to my mind, if you don't mind:

1 - in a room around 15m x 9m x 5m (675m³) with the horn placed on the back wall or in the corner, a half-mouth would be more appropriated than full-mouth or would be the minimum requirement?

2 - how the decision about mouth size (half or quarter) affect the length? A half-mouth horn was a half length requirement?

3 - What would be the difference between using 2 identical half-mouth horns and a full-mouth?

4 - How do the use of two or more drivers directly affect the length of a horn?

Many thanks!




Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 230
Post ID: 22115
Reply to: 22113
I might not be the best person to ask...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...because I have never built a big horn such as this.  My knowledge is theoretical only.  But the way that I understand it is as follows...

 xandcg wrote:


1 - in a room around 15m x 9m x 5m (675m³) with the horn placed on the back wall or in the corner, a half-mouth would be more appropriated than full-mouth or would be the minimum requirement?


People build them all kinds of fractions of full mouth and get decent or perhaps even good results.  The basic rule is that the smaller the mouth the more SPL ripple you can expect on the output.  If you are careful, you can probably build a quarter-mouth horn in that situation and get a good result.  A well built smaller horn will probably give better results than a poorer construction on a larger horn.  Note that it is the location of the mouth of the horn that determines if it is free-radiating/1pi/2pi et cetera...the throat or back or any other part of the horn has no bearing on its radiation pattern...just how the mouth is aligned to large things that effectively become extensions of the horn such as walls/floor/ceilings/cupboards and so on.

 xandcg wrote:


2 - how the decision about mouth size (half or quarter) affect the length? A half-mouth horn was a half length requirement?


The length of the horn is primarily determined by three things:  the size of the throat; the size of the mouth; the expansion profile in between the throat and mouth.  Tractrix is one of the shorter profiles, but perhaps is less useful in lower frequency horns because of it length.  The longer exponential profiles and derivatives may be more useful if you really want to get a decent sound at the lower knee of the horn.
 xandcg wrote:

3 - What would be the difference between using 2 identical half-mouth horns and a full-mouth?


Assuming construction is equal, the full-mouth would give higher gain and a more linear (less ripple) SPL.  It is also likely to scare small children if you paint it black.

 xandcg wrote:


4 - How do the use of two or more drivers directly affect the length of a horn?


Well, I don't really see the point of two drivers in a horn.  But setting that aside two drivers will not affect the length of the horn unless the driver causes the horn to use a larger throat.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 231
Post ID: 22119
Reply to: 22115
Got it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank Anthony, I got the general idea. Big Smile



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 232
Post ID: 22395
Reply to: 22119
5" and 6"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well I don't know a better place to post it, and I do not feel it is enough information to justify a new topic.

IIRC the ALE 160 driver is reported here (goodsoundclub) as having a 4" throat diameter but I found out it may be indeed 5" but with a "SUPER Extra" version with 6".

Source: http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/diy-og-utvikling-ha-yttalere-forsterkere-etc/77077-det-aller-beste-basselementet-6.html


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 233
Post ID: 22396
Reply to: 22395
These bass compression drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Xandcg, these bass compression drivers is a controversial subject. T think there are 3 of them ALE 160 and P1260 and GOTO SG-146LD. I think they all 4”, it would be very nice if they were 6”. However, 6” exit might be a bit too wide for compression type diaphragms.  Anyhow, as I said it is those drivers are debatable. We kind of accustomed that in compression drivers the intrinsic sonic quality of compression drivers is very much observable. However, with midbass channel it is more complicated. If with MF channel you make a proper horn then good 50-60% of sound is the sound of compression driver itself. With midbass the total sound of channel is about 20% come from the driver and the rest comes from the horn design, channels integration methods, room integration methods and a few other factors. So, in my view the bass compression drivers mostly a cause of problem then a solution and I would be very watchful to employ them.>>




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 234
Post ID: 22397
Reply to: 22396
Now I got.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks Romy,
With midbass the total sound of channel is about 20% come from the driver and the rest comes from the horn design, channels integration methods, room integration methods and a few other factors.

Now I got why exactly midbass horns are reported to be so complicated to be properly made.

In regards to the drivers, just to clarify based on my finds of what seems to be the manufacture proposal (I may be wrong of course):

ALE 1260 (now 126) (4") - upperbass-midbass
ALE 160 (5") - midbass-subbass
ALE 160 (6") - subbass-infrasonic (15 Hz) - this one seems to have a bigger magnet, 160 Kg in total.
SG-146LD (4") - upperbass-subbass (whole package)

Those drivers are "problematic" because is near impossible to find one to make some tests without buying them, unless if luckily happens to know someone whom own them. Also there are no website, I managed to find a e-mail of a supposed "International Commercial" person from ALE but I never got an answer.

PS. the website seems not to be respecting the text formatting. Everything become a "single phrase" when I post or ever on the preview. I use Opera or Firefox. I am using Gentoo Linux here.
PS.2  I had to leave one empty line per paragraph in order to have them respected, and two to have a actual empty line between the paragraphs.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 235
Post ID: 22398
Reply to: 22397
Specs.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Those are the specs I managed to find from ALE, but certainly incomplete (or outdated) because those new versions (like 160 Super Extra) are missing. I am leaving here just in case.

Another species High
Horn Model 1710 / 1750DE / 1750DEP / 17002
Play frequency band 6000Hz or more
Play sound pressure level 105db / 110db / 115db / 115db
Rated input 10W
Nominal impedance 8 / 16Ω
Magnetic flux density 2.35T / 2.40T / 2.40T / 2.40T
Magnetic circuit Ring · P / ring · P / All · P / ring · P
External dimensions φ125 × 130 / φ160 × 150 / φ160 × 180 / φ195 × 260
Weight 7kg / 22kg / 25kg / 45kg
Price (pair) excluding tax ¥ 338. / ¥ 640 / ¥ 1.500 / ¥ 1.560 (units of thousand yen)




Another species Mid-High
Horn Model 4550D / 4550DE / 4550DEP / 45002
Play frequency band 500 to 20.000
Play sound pressure level 105db / 110db / 115db / 115db
Rated input 25W
Nominal impedance 8 / 16Ω
Magnetic flux density 2.35T / 2.40T / 2.40T / 2.40T
Magnetic circuit Ring · P / ring · P / All · P / ring · P
External dimensions φ125 × 150 / φ160 × 170 / φ160 × 200 / φ195 × 270
Weight 7kg / 22kg / 25kg / 45kg
Price (pair) excluding tax ¥ 330. / ¥ 640 / ¥ 1.500 / ¥ 1.560 (units of thousand yen)




Another species MID
Horn Model 7550DE / 7550DEP / 75002
Play frequency band 100 to 10.000
Play sound pressure level 110db / 115db / 115db
Rated input 35W
Nominal impedance 8 / 16Ω
Magnetic flux density 2.40T
Magnetic circuit Ring · P / All · P / ring · P
External dimensions φ160 × 170 / φ160 × 200 / φ195 × 280
Weight 23kg / 26kg / 45kg
Price (pair) excluding tax ¥ 680.000- / ¥ 1.500.000- / ¥ 1.600.000-




Another species MID-BASS
Horn Model 126 / 126D
Play frequency band 20 to 1.000
Play sound pressure level 105db
Rated input 50W
Nominal impedance 8 / 16Ω
Magnetic flux density 2.20T / 2.30T
Magnetic circuit Ring · P
External dimensions φ250 × 330 / φ259 × 400
Weight 50kg / 98kg
Price (pair) excluding tax ¥ 1.640. / ¥ 2.660




Another species BASS
Horn Model 160 / 160D
Play frequency band 15 to 1.000
Play sound pressure level 105db
Rated input 70W
Nominal impedance 8 / 16Ω
Magnetic flux density 2.15T / 2.30T
Magnetic circuit Ring · P
External dimensions φ250 × 350 / φ250 × 420
Weight 65kg / 100kg
Price (pair) excluding tax ¥ 1.640 /2.600 (units of thousand yen)



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-12-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 236
Post ID: 22399
Reply to: 22398
Those bass drivers ....
fiogf49gjkf0d

 
 xandcg wrote:
Now I got why exactly midbass horns are reported to be so complicated to be properly made.

   
Well, I do not think you did as I promise your that the complexity is much more then you know, or at least then what I have said. I was started to talk about it in the thread of that Moscow guy who bought recently Goto bass drivers and popped up at my site trying to build something with them but he is not the person who is capable to make anything worth attention ad any conversation with him are worthless.
   
The specification of those drivers is truly irrelevant as the drivers are not made by the people who know what they do.  All those bass drivers, YL, Goto, ALE are derivatives of Yoshimur’s ideas wish is not bad itself but deny any common sense on a great scale. Kind of similar to the La-profile ideas: not a bad concept but advanced by the people who have no ears and no practical experiences.  
   
Those drivers are "problematic" not because is near impossible to find one to make some tests without buying them. To properly “try” them is a huge endeavor and it will cost you more to try them then to buy them. If I have them for free I would put them in storage and do not use them. Not because they are bad divers but because it is too hard to do it properly.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 237
Post ID: 22400
Reply to: 22399
I am not willing to make them myself.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Many thanks for your attention.
I will not try to make the horns myself since I do not have the necessary abilities for that. I am too far, educational/professional-wise, from a related field to acquire the enough information to properly make anything worthiness in a reasonable time.
What I am trying to do is to absorb the maximum (worthiness) information I can in order to have how to proper commit it to someone, maybe Cessaro, to make then. I do not believe there are advantages in commit anything custom made if I do not have a minimum reasonable knowledge - let me call it tactical knowledge - of what will/is going on, including not knowing what is worthless in the standard configuration, because in reality I would do not know why/what I want to be custom - if it make any sense.
I hope you do not mind I am your site.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-21-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 238
Post ID: 22404
Reply to: 22400
"Cost"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Alexandre, perhaps you are missing Romy's point that the "cost" of this is very high, whether in dollars or in time and effort, and it is usually an insurmountable combination of these things, not to mention that I have not mentioned the all-important "right capabilities and direction" that must "be there in the first place". It's not like it's impossible; it's rather highly unlikely that all conditions will be soon met by someone who simply takes it in his mind to do it. Adding others to do custom work may speed up part of the process, but it will certainly add considerably to monetary costs, and turn-around times for this work can be very long between trials, and there will in any case be many (very expensive) trials, given one has the ears to make it worthwhile in the first place.

Not to simply rain on the parade, starting out with an "acceptable" "bought" system is not only honorable, it will likely save you time and money, overall, and you can actually listen to Music while you learn about Sound and Hi-Fi.

Best regards,
Paul S
01-23-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 239
Post ID: 22414
Reply to: 22404
I had got it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, Thanks!

Yes, I had got the Romy point. I am just too obstinate to get that thing done but indeed I am still considerate a standard system as start point too. My problem with that, buy a standard one before, were I always try to avoid to have to buy the same thing two times. I usually prefer to wait a bit more and then buy what I want one time and right. But indeed I do not know if this way will work well here.

Also, based on some information their dealers spread around, what maybe correct or no, Cessaro usually like to serious try every driver on the market, then my hope is they already find a way to make a proper horn for those drivers, or at least one of them.

Due to some personal/professional issues (I am to moving on to another country but without a schedule to it) I need to keep delaying  the time where I will begin to serious looking on it. My plan anyway is to start with a nice headphone/amp, maybe a more low/medium level Lampizator, to have something to play with then start dealing with those loudspeakers problems. The electronics to be used with I already have them more or less negotiated with the manufacturer in advance.

IIRC there is a Cessaro dealer here, would be nice if he/she could tell us what experience Cessaro has with those drivers (GOTO, ALE), if any.
EDIT: G.I.P drivers also come to mind, but I do not know yet.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
01-24-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 240
Post ID: 22421
Reply to: 22414
Hearsay
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is the usual situation for most people, I think, And only you can decide which "club" to join, based on who likes what, for which reasons. First is appreciation of real Music, then is appreciation of the Sound of Music, then it's playing with the hi-fi, then it is using hi-fi to shape the Sound. If there is a way to cut corners here, I don't know about it. Be sure to find something you actually "like" the sound of to start, something that makes you involved with the Music of your own choosing, and don't put too much store in what others say.


Best regards,
Paul S
11-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 241
Post ID: 22839
Reply to: 22421
Does anyone know about this German company that offers Compression driver that can do 80-5000Hz?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Does anyone know anything about this German company called hornsolutions.de that advertsies on ebay and offers a driver that promises to reach 80Hz?

See link below for ebay page:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kompressionstreiber-Compressiondriver-80Hz-bis-5000Hz-Mitteltontreiber-Referenz-/332027662543?hash=item4d4e6410cf:g:CaQAAOSwPgxVM58V
"Kompressionstreiber von Hornsolutions. Einsetzbar von 80Hz bis max 5.000Hz. In Verbindung mit unseren Hörnern ein unvergessliches Erlebnis. Sowohl auf die untere als auch auf die obere Grenzfrequenz kann kundenspezifisch eingegangen werden. "
Translated to:
Compression Drivers from Hornsolutions. Can be used from 80Hz to max. In connection with our horns an unforgettable experience. Both the lower and the upper limit frequency can be dealt with by the customer.
11-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 242
Post ID: 22840
Reply to: 22839
Using Exotic LF CDs for Bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oxric, I can't imagine a CD making good sound so low.  In my experience, paper cone drivers simply sound better than CDs below a certain point, let's say 250 Hz (usually higher).  Of course there are always exceptions to every generalization, and I haven't heard every CD, most especially the exotic LF CDs, but after wasting too much time and $$$ looking at exotic solutions, I came to the conclusion that for me, most of the times, a more conventional approach, implemented with fanatical attention to detail, usually leads to happiness more often than pushing the envelop with exotica.
Having said that, I would be happy to be proven wrong.
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 243
Post ID: 22841
Reply to: 22840
80Hz compression driver.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nope, I never heard about those drivers. For sure a compression driver that goes down to 80Hz might be interesting. A few concerns I would have however.
 
The people who make such a driver would not come from nowhere but they rather would be the people who advocate let say 90-100Hz horns. Well, I would like to see the installation, or at least the idea installation of installation with 90-100Hz horn? Seeing what they propose would make possible to evaluate how serious they are. 
 
From what I see on the picture the driver has no adjustable back plate. So it has to be some way to tune the driver resonance frequency, probably taping the pressure release whole would work…
I am bit concern with the throat. They made it look like 2”. At 80Hz and 2” entrance we end up with probably 15-20 feet horn, are they kidding? Also, the driver is kind of small and could not have large (4-5”) diaphragm. If it has 3” diaphragm and need to develop 80Hz then the diaphragm shall run too much in the driver, I do not like it. 
 
They might find some kind of compression transition where unique phase plug that creates a “bubble” within throat that then resonates just above 80Hz in horn. That it would not be too pretty as well, even though it will push the RTA to right SPL numbers.
Anyhow, I do not know anything about the driver and would like to hear from somebody who tried it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 244
Post ID: 22843
Reply to: 22841
Compression drivers are copies of western Electric 555 using original membranes
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spoke to the owner of the company. The drivers are copies of Western Electric 555 (but the owner insists that they use genuine NOS WE diaphragms membranes) but they can be custom made to fit in with one's requirements. I didn't know such a thing was possible or commercially viable but so i am told...

Well, they have a website:

http://www.hornsolutions.de

But most of their work is customised to individual's requirements and so he feels his Facebook page is more helpful:

https://m.facebook.com/hornsolutions.de

I am not convinced by any of these installations but then again the company itself can't be blamed for the application that their drivers or horns are put to.
Difficult to know what to make of it all...

Rakesh
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 245
Post ID: 22845
Reply to: 22843
I do not think so.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, the exit look like WE 555 exit and if they use the original type of diaphragms then good luck to get 80Hz from it. You need to go with very long slow opening neck to raise more EQ. I do not like this approach. From Western Electric 15A and a single drive people get 125Hz but only with a very lucky room location. Good luck with those 80Hz. Well, hypothetically if to run a full profile to 80Hz and get 15-20” horn then it might work at 80Hz but who the hell will be able to do it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 246
Post ID: 22847
Reply to: 22845
Could be interesting though...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I cannot say that i have much interest in the installations on his Facebook page and this should be a strong indicator of the type of audience being targeted by the driver manufacturer.
Nonetheless, he has sent me some frequency responses, but not taken from listening distances as I requested unfortunately.
It is certainly interesting that in his own system, the manufacturer makes use of the 666 compression driver from 156Hz (maybe an implied acknowledgement of its limitations). Here is what he had to say about his drivers:

"the 666 Compressiondriver is able to handle 80Hz without any problems. It works with 2.1 Tesla Alnico or 2.0 Tesla Ferrite Megnets. 2" Phenolic Membrane.112dB 1Watt/1Meter30 Watt Sinus( you will never need it Wink.

Here is the PWT Measurement 


This is measured in a Western Electric 15A Horns 100cm distance on the Soundangle. The green line is our Compressiondriver 666 Top Model which can 80Hz - 5.000Hz


Here is a link where you will see the Driver implemented in a Satohorn. This is our Listeningroom and the Sato plays 156Hz - 1245Hz. With this driver you don't need to cut in the most critical Range between 150hz - 1500Hz.

BtW Our driver is the winner of the ETF European Triode Festival 2014. Together with our Tweeter."



It could work in the right application. But what about its sound? Has anyone heard these drivers?




12-26-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 247
Post ID: 22900
Reply to: 22421
ALE Loudspeakers.
Apparently, ALE will come out with it own loudspeakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmdDvYW7kwE

Cheers!


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 248
Post ID: 23207
Reply to: 22421
Just a youtube video...
It is just a you tube video but:

Goto Unit SG17PVC VS ALE Acoustic X1750 (SUPER TWEETERS TEST)




Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
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