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01-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 151
Post ID: 12806
Reply to: 12804
Roger, the Sistering
fiogf49gjkf0d
Joist sistering is nice not just because it strengthens the whole structure but it also reduces the clear span for the floor sheeting, itself.  Depending on how it's done, sistering can actually serve as a structural substitute for beams and shoring, where that is not practical or it is not desired.  Still, it's nice to be able to "tune" the listening room floor with screw jacks, if you can do it.  Sistering can also be fairly involved, for a number of reasons that are case-specific.  I have done some small-ish areas that took several days because of complicated blocking and/or strapping, etc., stepped floors, pony walls, and/or plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc., ad nauseum, not to mention getting new, straight joists in alongside old, badly sagging joists.  It's a matter of degree versus access, believe me.  If the polyurethane references are for a solid foam filling, I have never done it in a floor cavity, and I'm not sure I'd want to, since that precludes subsequent access or "fishing" without serious digging.  One does want to fill the floor cavity voids with something suitable before drywall/plastering, however, for acoustic reasons.


Paul S
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 152
Post ID: 12809
Reply to: 12805
I wish it were easier…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 miab wrote:

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 
Hm, I was so proud about myself for a few days. I thought I have a key how to render my midbass horn in perfects time-aligned position and to make it literally invisible in my new room. It was such an elegant design!!! It still might be renderable but I discover some aspects in the new house that can make it very hard to implement. I was already thinking about the color patter of my new horns! Such a blow!!!

 
What did you find in the new house that will not allow you to do that? There might be a way around it.

Miab, I thought about this properly a lot. There is a lot in this house that I like from audio perspective. I like how the listening room talks with the other rooms and a few other moments. The most important is that the listening room allows using a semi-long-wall configuration, has enough for my objective volume and still not huge to lose the near-filed configuration.  I have been looking for right house from July and this is the very first that i was able to like in the neighborhood that I like, having other amendment trhat I like and is in my price range. I think the size of the listening room is perfect for what I am trying to accomplish: not too small to let Macondo to breathe free but not too large where Milq would clip to handle the power.

HousePlan.jpg

When I saw the house for a first time, I literary in my car right after the open house drew a plan how the midbass hours might be implemented in there. Below is the representation of the idea. The sealing below the moths of the midbass horns is cathedral, with wings doing right and left. The space above is a regular triangle roof with attic. So, there is a triangle wall in the second floor between the cathedral listening room and the house attic, where both roofs shape “T”. So, my idea was to cut off that triangle wall on the “second floor” of the listening room and slide in the attic a pair of the midbass horns, having their mouths to be the triangle wall. It is 19 feet by 6-8 feet – a good dimension to have two mouths.

Upon further inspection I have learned in the location what the horns shall be there are the beams from the perpendicular roof. That sucks! There is an option however. The beams that are in my way are the legacy of the attic roof but it is still under the cathedral roof. So, hypothetically the beams can be cut to accommodate the horns but I am afraid that it will screw up the structural integrity of the attic roof. So, I might bring a roof specialist to evaluate if those internal diagonal studs might be removed. Alternatively it would be possible to keep the existing beams in the mouth of the horns. I wish it were easier…

HornsOnAttic_1.jpg

HornsOnAttic_2.jpg

HornsOnAttic_3.jpg

HornsOnAttic_4.jpg

HornsOnAttic_5.jpg

I do have alternative ways how the big horns might be done in the room (option B) but I will lose the time-alignment.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 153
Post ID: 12810
Reply to: 12800
Dig in your heals & make them fit
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:

Looking at the images, from a structural point of view, the situation seems very workable.

Lets assume the new horns are built such that their walls might support a light (structural) load.

Look at the 90° intersection of the two ridge poles (the peaks of the two roofs); from that node, there is perfect triangulation straight down to two more nodes. This means that the primary structure would remain sound and un disturbed by removing the part of the beams that run through the mouths of the horns. Removing this part would require only that you beef up the ridge pole above the cut beams (as it will now be taking a little more load in bending), and that you attach the remaining part of the offending beams directly to the walls of the new horns. This would also help ground the horn's resonances.

I'd also follow Miab's advice on reinforcing and grounding a suspended floor.

As you pointed out, you've finally found a place with many positive points; this gives it, for you, a certain value beyond its purchase price. Over here where all real estate is not only valuable, but down right precious, people do not hesitate to rip into the main structure of very old, multi-floor buildings, often times with 4 or 5 floors of families living above, slip in a few big jacks, add a huge beam, and knock out an offending wall.

Facing and accepting the task is often the most difficult aspect of "big" operations.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 154
Post ID: 12811
Reply to: 12810
I hope I do not need to do for the alternative option
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, Jessie, this is the direction that I am contemplating - to put up a vertical poll to support the attic main beam and to cut the 4-5 diagonal lowering beams that lead to my working triangular wall.  Also the residue of the attic roof under the cathedral roof needs to be removed. My initial sentiment was that it would be essay but not I see that it will be not, if it is ever doable.

If I get the house then I would move in, get conformation from professional roofers or architect that what I would like to do is doable. Then I would devise a detail plan for the horns and for the way how the horns would be imbedded into the house. I am planning to recruit a horn builder I know to overview the design of horn and to consult my local woodworker. Facing and accepting the task is not a problem to me if I clearly see that the project will be successful and if I have all necessary lavers to navigate the project.

The alternative option is to put the horns in the 4 large 5x7 feet windows that the opposite wall has but it has few moments that I do not like. The time-alignment is the key for me and with midbass-horns are behind the MF channels is too much delay. Second, is that I would like to preserve front wall of the listening room. There is a lot of potential in it. It has 4 huge window-doors 5x7’ that allow making the whole width of the listening room wide open to open air.  Right behind the window-doors is a deck and then a forest. I do not know how the birds singing and sound of the near stream will be compatible with my Bruckner but I very much like the idea of playback be able to operate in a virtual open air. It looks like the neighbors will be not the subject in this house as they are 1) too far 2) the cathedral room will be doing the detractively shaping and the sound will go mostly to the forest. So, I would prefer do not put the front to the front wall…

House_BirdsView.JPG

As you see, Jessie, the house is very promising and I can’t wait to start paling with that room!

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 155
Post ID: 12812
Reply to: 12810
…. certain value beyond its purchase price.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
As you pointed out, you've finally found a place with many positive points; this gives it, for you, a certain value beyond its purchase price. Over here where all real estate is not only valuable, but down right precious, people do not hesitate to rip into the main structure of very old, multi-floor buildings, often times with 4 or 5 floors of families living above, slip in a few big jacks, add a huge beam, and knock out an offending wall.
Yes, it is true: the positive points of the listening room do add to me the value beyond its price. Not everything is perfect in this house: for instance it is too big for my need, way too big but frankly it is the less expensive I have seen so far, having the combination of the desirable properties. Ironically the price was not the main motivation to me but there is in it a very pleasant personally that I turned to like. Like those large 5x7 windows are bad ass reflective surfaces but the windows have blinds of it made from phenomenal acoustic damper – heavy, 1” thick, with double layers, connected with lower-resonant frequency bridge – it is like some was thinking about my need! The good part about this one that I do not build the room from scratch – that would take a LOT of efforts and I might use everything as is. I am very enthusiastic, just wish the attic horns idea were render-able… BTW, Jessie, you build the thing, so, what in your estimate the whole attic 13’ horns project might run into money-wise?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 156
Post ID: 12814
Reply to: 12812
It's not so bad really.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nice drawings Romy. It's looks from them that it is not too bad a situation IF your dealing with roof rafters and not trusses. Trusses look similiar to this link: 

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cedar-log-homes.com/Small-stuff-images/TypicalRoofTruss.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.cedar-log-homes.com/Roof-trusses.htm&h=324&w=524&sz=5&tbnid=ltCHYCKQAXwzXM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droof%2Btrusses&hl=en&usg=__wz1x2t73z1ooUnCooiDP6r-ga5M=&ei=_25kS-HZGsrh8QbBqOWdAw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=8&ct=image&ved=0CCcQ9QEwBw

Roof rafters in a traditional type look like this:

http://www.timber.org.au/ewebeditpro4/upload/Nom_roof(1).jpg

First, your cathedral roof is using the structure of the attic roof for support where it starts to blend with it and maybe the internal wall of the attic capped room. Is there a little bulkhead where the two rooms join? That would be a little protrusion of the ceiling at that point. If so, there will be a support beam there. Keeping a center post between the horns like you have in the drawing will help. The triangular part (if looking from above the house) moving up the attic roof to the end point of the triangle is using each roof rafter for support. Especially with snow load in Boston you don't want to just cut any out. Your right about having a professional look before you cut. If you're to do it 'official' you will also need city approval when dealing with structure. That being said, it is not at all a huge undertaking. The horn building will be the more dificult part of the project. 

You would reframe the roof of the attic space as you would, for example, a huge triangular window dormer. You see these little peaked windows popping out of the roof as you drive by older neighborhoods.  

Want I want to stress and is more important than I think you took it in an earlier post is the condensing factor within the horn and back cavity. The temperature difference between the attic (cold in winter/hot in summer) and room below (warm in winter/cool in summer) will need to be dealt with. The best and most thorough solution to this is to insulate/vapor barrier/sheath the underside of the roof rafters and condition the space. Actually make the attic or the part where the horns are, part of your living space. Either take a duct run and return air up there from existing furnace utility (you can keep the ceiling under the horns this way. Or open the attic space as an extension of the cathedral ceiling of the perpendicular room and have the normal warm air rising heat the space and put a ceiling fan in to help in summer getting the warm air out of the peaks.

If you want to just insulate around the horns and back cavity, take care putting in a complete vapour barrier on their exterior and then wrapping them with (I think in Boston) R30 or R40 blanket. This is not ideal but doable but you might run into issues later.

All the above is if your NOT dealing with roof trusses. Trusses are a different animal and need to be totally restructured if you want to do what your thinking. That involves taking the whole roof off. Not fun and I would never do it.

BTW I very much like plan A and NOT plan B. That view of the forest is spectacular and will just add to the benefits and enjoyment of your first home purchase, audio aside.
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 157
Post ID: 12815
Reply to: 12814
I hope it would all work out.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks, miab

I am encouraged that your guys feel that it is doable. I was cowling in the attic and had very bad feeling. The beams (you call them trusses) are VERY thick and the attic is not a full waking. The house has center AC and my red triangle red wall has two vents. I thought that it is not a big deal to relocate them but being the vents are 2-feet-wide diameter.  The roof is cut just to accommodate the vent’s pipes, so the Red Wall is nit well reachable from attic. So, the Red Wall needs to be collapse from the cathedral room and then the attic space needs to be freed from there.

I presume that horns need to be assembled in the cathedral room, lifted up and slide to the attic, stopping mouths were the Red Wall used to be. Then the Red Wall need to be rebuilt around the mouths of the horns.  If and when I moive I would need some to evaluate all of this. I would LOVE to do is as it would make the horns time-alight, load cathedral ceiling from the mouth of the horns and even will extend the volume of cathedral room.  Funny it will not even diminish the cost of the house and it will use the space that is not being used now.  I wonder in 50 years what I will be long gone the people will be wonder what the hell formers owners were trying to do in there….

The 40Hz, ½ size, 13’-14’ hyperbolic at .7 midbass in time-align location and invisible in the room (with complimentary LF section)? That might be a LOT of fun! I hope it would all work out.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 158
Post ID: 12816
Reply to: 12815
Words vs. Pictures
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nice site, Romy!  Space is the Bomb!

Regarding the remodel, it would be easier to speculate if we had some photographs of the areas we are discussing.

At this point, speaking abstractly, it looks do-able, even if those rafters are trusses that had to be taken out.  But it generally comes down to cost/benefit, doesn't it?

I think you would do well to +/- settle on the horns themselves before you start on the house structure.  That way you can possibly use parts of the house as parts of the horn, and vice versa.  Based on what I've seen so far, it might also help if you can accept truss "cords" in the horns.

Anyway, I'd love to tackle a project like this, and I'm sure there are worthy pros in your area who would be quite enthusiastic about it.

Do not be surprised if the pros tell you that the attic solution does not look like a weekend project.  In fact, be good and sure that anyone who says otherwise knows what he's talking about before you write any checks.

No one ever listens, but if you go for it, then I would highly recommend you stay where you are until all work on the new place is complete; then move.

BTW, your drawings appear to show what would likely (in the real world) be a vibrating diaphragm covering a lot of ceiling area.

Shades of the "shaker"...

Paul S
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 159
Post ID: 12818
Reply to: 12815
Here is where the horns advantages bite my by my tail.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, the story about the Red Wall is getting stranger …. Further thinning about all of it I came up with a brilliant idea.

The Red Wall has two air-conditioner wants. So, if the horns are built on the Red Wall then why do not make the rents … in the belly of the horns. Look, I install the big horns with a minor tilt toward to the room. At the ¾ of the horn I make a went and connect the air-conditioning pipe to there. Now the air-condoning in blowing inside the belly of the horn and since the cold air is heavier then hot air it will descent into the room and do not go up to the horn driver.  Since the horn will be crossed at let say 150Hz then I do not think that the vent size will be even notable by the wave in the horn. I love the idea a lot! I just concern that the horn will amplify for 6dB the noise from the air passing from the vent…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 160
Post ID: 12819
Reply to: 12816
Too soon now.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
….it would be easier to speculate if we had some photographs of the areas we are discussing.
I do not feel comfortable at this point to post any photographs. It is somebody else’s home now. If and when it will be mine then I am sure I will post some photographs of the Red Wall and the location where the Midbass Horns might go.

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 161
Post ID: 12820
Reply to: 12815
Reframing Attic Ceiling
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was consulted with people who know and they told me that there is absolutely no problem even if I need to have some of trusses to clear my way. Apparently there are special people who could perform a section of the attic reframing, so it would not be a problem. This news opened a door to my absolute exuberance and I am not suicidal anymore.

I think if a mortgage lenders will not be pissed that my grangrangrangrangrangrangrangrandmother was doing something that they do not what her to do 250 years back then I will close this house. Audio-wise, from what I have seen it is the most exciting and perspective listening room I have observed since the last July. In fact from many perspectives this room is near perfect. Sure, I would like the cathedral room to be 3-4 feet longer. I would like the floor of the cathedral room not to be suspended.  Still, I think those imperfection are workable and I might even learn in future how to convert those disadvantages into advantages, I have a good record to do it.

Perhaps from the ritualistic-superstition perspective I do a mistake thinking about the house’s modification before I close it but integrating my listening room into the home where I live is a big objective of mine, so I would like to have a clear vision of where I am going.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 162
Post ID: 12821
Reply to: 12820
Vibration induced resonances
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I somehow feel that you should look into the vibration induced resonances that those rooftop horns might create.

I'm not really familiar with the all-wood building techniques used in that side of the Atlantic but I have a hunch that unless you either decouple the horns from the structural frames or creat a new free-standing structure the room will rattle somewhat, a like a giant resonant speaker.
Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 163
Post ID: 12822
Reply to: 12821
This is an interesting one.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuga wrote:
I somehow feel that you should look into the vibration induced resonances that those rooftop horns might create.

I'm not really familiar with the all-wood building techniques used in that side of the Atlantic but I have a hunch that unless you either decouple the horns from the structural frames or creat a new free-standing structure the room will rattle somewhat, a like a giant resonant speaker.

I was thinking about it myself. I do not know if horn will be able to create non-air transduced resonances that house structure will be able to pick up – I will be able to say it only when the horns installed. It might be a good idea to decouple the horns from structure; it might be not even too hard to do as it sound. Still I feel that hard-couple would be more productive. I think to tight the horns to trusses, taking advantage if the trusses’ mass and thickness.  In fact I am condensing to make horn a bit lighter then I would initially consider and to use the mass, the firmness and the steadiness of the roof frame to couple horns. It sure needs to be more analyzed.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 164
Post ID: 12823
Reply to: 12820
What would be interesting in this room…
fiogf49gjkf0d

…is to see how the Red Wall will load the room.  Following the context of my Imbedded Macro-Positioning subject:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

it would be very interesting to see how the out from the read wall will relate to the acoustic pressure at the listening location. I would love it to be in “hot spot” and to get +6-10dB but you would never know. I did not bring RTA to the inspection and I do not know how that room works. If I lucky then in addition to 6-8dB of hyperbolic gain I will be able to get 6-8dB of room gain then it would be phenomenal.  15dB gain from 99dB sensitive driver it would be fantastic and I will be able to power it with 2W (I still intend to power it with 6C33C).

Also,  and this is the subject of my great interests, I wonder if there is any way to use the cathedral opening of the ceiling as a continuation of the horn. If I would be able to introduce the hone mouth at the perimeter of the cathedral ceiling then the cathedral opening would be a continuation of the horn curve. What I am thinking to try it to put a divider of 3-5 feet long in the middle of the cathedral ceiling axis. This divider would set a transition between the horn mouth and the cathedral pitch. If I am lucky then I might even go away with ¼ horn – I need to measure and to calculate the rate of the halt- cathedral opening. The picture below depicts the idea.

Cathedral_loading.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 165
Post ID: 12824
Reply to: 12823
Decoupling the Horns and Horn Hell
fiogf49gjkf0d
Indeed, if the horns are doing their job then there will be some very powerful vibrating going on up there, for better and for worse.

Decoupling the horns would require that the structures of the horns themselves and their support members have solid paths to ground that do not involve the structure of the house to a significant degree.  Think about this in this situation.  Unless there were some sort of "outboard" structure, a la' Pompidou, this would require access inside the outside wall at the driver(s) end and it would ikely involve re-building that wall, along with attendant wiring, plumbing, HVAC, headers, beams, etc. to make way for the horn's support/path(s) to ground.

Now, go through the same mental drill for the "red wall".  It would be a real challenge to come up with separate ground paths for the roof/ceiling junction and the horns where they join in the "red wall".

Decoupled or not, it would have to be very difficult - practically impossible - to model and predict total effective response.  So, how does one really plan effectively?  I have to say that this is where the large horns I have heard were all stuck, in the eternal integration/development stages.

I keep thinking that if it's my money, and my tiny brain, then I wind up using large sealed woofer enclosures and spending the considerable savings on otherwise tuning the house, itself.

Paul S
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 166
Post ID: 12825
Reply to: 12824
Bagel Sandwich Roof horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not and expert in wood construction,  all the building we do around here is brick and mortar, but, If you get the Horn wall close to the roof you could fill that space up with that spray expanding foam.  The side of the Mid bass horn will be stiff enough, I would guess you could not make it less than 3/4" thick,  you shouldn't have a big vibration problem,  and in the case you have it you could reinforce it where necessary once it shows its weakness.  I am using a 30 hz tapped horn at the moment and it sounds pretty good,  I get excellent dynamics with almost no effort on the horn,  one side was disconnected and I couldn't notice it by touching the horn sides, I had to stick my head in the hole to notice it (of course the sound stage was wrong) but my point is I have not a big vibrating surface with them,  and they do rattle the windows in my brick and mortar house...Now if you wanted to make a concrete floor on your new house I guess you would only need to reinforce the floor from the bottom with some of the methods already discussed here,  and then just place a thick wire mesh on top of the wooden floor and pour concrete on top of that.  
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 167
Post ID: 12826
Reply to: 12825
Tapped Out
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sarurntube, I am quite curious about the mysterious tapped horns these days.  What are the physical dimensions and power requirements of your tapped horns?  Are they 1/4 or 1/8 wave horns?  Do you use a FR amp or a sub-only amp to drive them?  Do you bias the tapped horn amp(s)?  What frequency range do they cover?  How many dB down at 30 Hz?  Would you say you use them in their optimal range?  Are they any easier to integrate than other LF options?

You say yours do not vibrate.  Do I only imagine reading recently that one guy said he could not put enough weight on his tapped horns to keep them from hopping around?

Too many reasons to get into it, but pouring concrete inside a typical wood sub-floored US house is not practical.


Paul S
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 168
Post ID: 12827
Reply to: 12826
How about silent blocks?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

I wonder if some silent blocks or hydraulic engine mounts wouldn't be fit for such a decoupling as they're design to absorb low frequency vibrations:

http://www.adina.com/cet03.shtml

http://www.openpr.com/print/31310/Silicone-instead-of-natural-rubber-first-silicone-engine-mount-proves-itself-in-series-use.html

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 169
Post ID: 12829
Reply to: 12826
Well TH...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, I am no expert on tapped horns but I think the main (40 year old) principle is that you join the back wave of the driver with the front wave, now in order to have the 2 wave fronts meet, the back wave should travel a certain distance depending on the frequency range they should cover.  They are good for a range of two octaves,  when the back wave meets the front wave, both waves sum at the design frequency, and they annul themselves at the opposite wave length,  so say my tapped horn goes down to 30 hz,  it means it is designed to meet both waves at 60 hz, they will annul at 120 hz and at 30 hz,  so this means they are good from 120 hz down to 30 hz.  Some how the drivers barely move (I guess because both sides of the driver are loaded).  Mine are about 1.8 meters high and 40 cm X 60 cm foot print, each one takes almost a whole sheet of 3/4" mdf, so they are not light.  They use the very heavy Beyma 12LX60 driver,  the design is readily available on the Diyaudio huge thread of collaborative Tapped Horn project.  I made them as a myth buster scheme, I was using at the time a couple of 12" drivers per side and a 15 inch servo controlled subwoofer per side and I thought they couldnt be beat... I like the TH better.   I get bass I never heard before way out of their "optimal range" they are fast and clear and very easy to integrate,  I drive them with a pair of 12 watt PP mono tube amps with a Pllxo at 150 hz.    My room is 14 ft X 21.5 ft with a height of 9 ft, again, brick and concrete so maybe that helps, they barely vibrate move and the ground starts shaking! The best way to describe them would be explosive! I will take some freq. measurements. I am sure the concrete idea is terrible, here we weld rods all around and pour concrete to everything, we have passed 6 degree earthquakes without a blimp...
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 12830
Reply to: 12827
Differential Movement
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ric, that's pretty sophisticated stuff.  I never tried hydraulic damping mounts, but I think the theoretical idea with the drivers is to keep them from moving at all, rather than using mounts that accept and convert energy in order to dissipate it.

Saturntube, I suppose I will have to try the effing TH myself at some point.  But you did not say if you had to apply the exponential power to get lower frequencies, and I forgot to ask if you'd tried SET with it.  I generally think of the "heavy" drivers as requiring more power.  But I suppose the truth is that  one can only get so far with flea power.

Best regards,
Paul S.
02-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 171
Post ID: 12835
Reply to: 12830
Gain and bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
I dont want to hack this thread into TH, I tried them with sub-amps 150 watts and they didnt sound good,  but I was using a passive preamp, when I added an active preamp things started to get better, now with 12 watts and a a lot of gain, bass is amazing,  I guess gain is more important than final wattage.  Any way the drivers are 98 db efficient and the horn doubles that since we are using both sides of the wave.  If I like TH, which indeed have a small mouth,  I think a Real Mid bass horn like this thread exposes must be to die for....  Anyone has some sort of comparison between compression drivers against cone (dynamic) drivers in a this huge mid bass horns, or even upper bass horns.     All I heard are this guys from Germany with the out of reach expensive GOTO compression bass drivers and Johan with the JBL 2490 MF driver in his upperbass horns.   Anyone with WE 555 drivers?
02-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 172
Post ID: 12836
Reply to: 12835
I do not see a lot of interesting solution out there.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Saturntube wrote:
Anyone has some sort of comparison between compression drivers against cone (dynamic) drivers in a this huge mid bass horns, or even upper bass horns.     All I heard are this guys from Germany with the out of reach expensive GOTO compression bass drivers and Johan with the JBL 2490 MF driver in his upperbass horns.   Anyone with WE 555 drivers?

Saturntube,

I kind of have an attitude toward all of those “out of reach expensive compression bass drivers”. The drivers are insanely important but the quality of the drivers does not eliminate a need to properly use them. Did you see a lot of properly made midbass horns? Did you see then properly integrated into playback? Did you see them time-aligned? Did you see them appropriately powered and crossovered? I have a feeling, and have many evidences, that in the cases people “admire horn bass sound” they are in reality “impressed” by driver’s time misalignment. I did model that sound and I do know what I am taking about. The proper “bass horn sound” is very interesting thing and in my estimate mostly not known by people. Even when people do construct more or less intelligent design then they run the midbass-horns too hard. Honestly, I do not impressed with WE, GOTO, RCA, or God know what else exotic drivers. I am impressed with exotic, well-indented and smart solutions. I do not see a lot of them out there. There are some interesting moves in different installation I saw but very few of them from my point of view do implement the midbass horns as interesting/offensive as they could be.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 173
Post ID: 12842
Reply to: 12822
My olde listening room.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Sitting in my couch, smoking my cigar, playing Shostakovich quartets and studying my new P&S agreement I discover that it will be sad to lose this listening room. This room is small but such a capable and able for such such intimate sound that I truly love this room. I also know this room so well that I can do with it virtually anything. It will be sad to lose it, not truly sad but it will be some sorrow in it. Well, I guess it is a part of this life…

Anyhow, to if everything go smooth then I will be starting to disassemble this installation on February 16-18. Some local audio folks have asked me to play for them the thing before it will be gone for good. It might be better at the new place – I presume it will be, but I do like what it does here – who know it might be never like this again…

Meanwhile, I am wondering if my attorney could put some language in the contingency of my Purchase and Sale Agreement that would allow reversing the deal if in 6 months my listening room will not sound acceptably. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montepilot


Boston, MA.
Posts 42
Joined on 12-13-2007

Post #: 174
Post ID: 12843
Reply to: 12842
Keep ye olde room!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I suggest you keep the old room in tact.  Continue to rent the place maintaing it as a second listening room in the city.  Do not move any equipment.  Koshka may not like living in suburbs and become more cantankerous than she already is.  Start with all new equipment in the suburbs.  Start business to teach morons 6 levels of listening benefits in present small listening room.  Now backbay apartment is tax deductible and I don't have to travel so far to borrow equipment and ask dumb questions.  Its a win win situation.  Yes?

rgs.
montepilot


"It's like an act of murder; you play with the intent to commit something"--Duke Ellington
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 175
Post ID: 12844
Reply to: 12842
Fair Warning
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I don't know what your plans are, or how extensive, but it sounds like you are ramping up.  FWIW, I do not jest when I advise strongly against living in a house while you remodel it.  It is not "an adventure"; it is miserble.  If there's any way around it, do not do it.

You have been warned.

Best regards,
Paul S
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