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05-09-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	18151
Reply to:	18149

Morrison, Silbatone, GIP , EV30....

Thanks, Guy. JC Morrison? I am not familiar with this character well. All that I know about him the he pop up usually around Joe Roberts and they perfume act of public saliva liking. It does not say anything about his amps, however, neither about his objective and his design capacity. It is in way say that Silbatone did not progress with idea of rational, good and intelligent contemporary design. The 3-model that they introduces a few year back I think was a very good move but it look like they did not progress in that and went back to demo WE fragmentary. Well, it is what it is, the pimp Roberts love to facility his white-trash parties with beer-drinking ceremonies being surrounded by loudspeakers that someone else paid for - as long it stimulated his Korean partners I guess it is fine.

I wonder if Silbatone would go for their own drivers. They employ GIP drivers and they might be fine driver but they are not accessible. I wonder if this Chinese LM Audio would do something that Silbatone would use and that would open Silbatone for reasonable price range available for public. Silbatone speakers are $10K-$20K acoustic systems but they can go there if the use some ridicules overpriced drivers that are insisted to be made in limited quantities, few per year.

BTW, this “large subwoofer carrying 2 x 30" EV” – I did not see it on the pictures. Was it sealed/infinite or it was in the way how the fool love to use it – in open baffle?

Rgs,
Romy teh Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-09-2012

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	27
Post ID:	18152
Reply to:	18150

Pro drivers

I wonder how far one could get to the traditional horn ideal (low-ranging compression driver plus some metal shimmer on top) with a BMS neodymium pure mid driver and a Celestion/Eighteensound/Beyma with aluminium diaphragm.
BTW, something with beryllium has been announced by Eighteensound.

05-09-2012

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	18153
Reply to:	18151

More Silbatone

Besides the single driver Aporia (which I haven't heard) I don't think Silbatone has made any speakers. So they don't 'employ' GIP drivers. I think GIP is a separate Japanese company who have just been invited to participate at these German shows. They brought two of their own speaker systems and placed them alongside the WE system.

I met JC Morrison at the Euro Triode Festival in 2010 and he gave an interesting talk about getting a good result from the D3a. I think the Silbatone pre-amp uses an LCR type equaliser with D3a's and a transformer volume control, but like the power amps, they deliberately won't make more than a handful of pieces.

The bass system had the two pairs of drivers facing each other into a 12" wide 6ft tall 'slot'. The drivers were open to the rear. I think this had been put together just prior to the show.

I get the impression that the venture is like a travelling museum to demonstrate the WE speakers. The owner, who I think was conducting the demonstration, did say that the WE15's were probably the third best speaker he had but that the better two would not have fitted through the doorway.

05-09-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	29
Post ID:	18154
Reply to:	18153

The predictable attitude.

guy sergeant wrote:
The bass system had the two pairs of drivers facing each other into a 12" wide 6ft tall 'slot'. The drivers were open to the rear. I think this had been put together just prior to the show.

Ah, the slot-loaded, facing dipole with a baffle! I truly do not like those types of applications and only God know why people keep doing this foolishness. They see those things on photographs and drawings from 30s and the keep replicate it. Why don’t they make fire by hand-drilling dry wood? All of it just an indication the they have more loyalty to concepts then respect to actual results – the attitude that is very predictable and very unfortunate in that crowd.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-09-2012

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	30
Post ID:	18155
Reply to:	18154

Bass results

I heard far worse bass performance in a good number of other rooms at the show. If the intention was to give people an experience of how large scale music/sound reproduction was or could have been 70 or 80 years ago, then the arrangement they chose was probably quite successful. A modern LF system would have been inappropriate.

I do think that was the intention. People do seem to struggle with the idea that these people aren't really selling anything. I find that aspect quite funny.

I suppose if you liked the results enough and were determined to make such a system for yourself, then you could buy drivers from GIP or LM Audio (or of course original units) and then build the horns. I found it very interesting to listen to but I wouldn't particularly want to copy it.

05-09-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	18156
Reply to:	18155

Cesarro vs Silbatone

guy sergeant wrote:
If the intention was to give people an experience of how large scale music/sound reproduction was or could have been 70 or 80 years ago, then the arrangement they chose was probably quite successful. A modern LF system would have been inappropriate.

Hm, this is not what I would agree. In my view there is no such a thing as vintage or modern sonic result. There is better and worse sound and it is not necessarily results to the sound 70 ago or to the sound of our days.

guy sergeant wrote:
I do think that was the intention. People do seem to struggle with the idea that these people aren't really selling anything. I find that aspect quite funny.

Guy, I do not think you are accurate in it. I do presume that this Korean fellow who owns Silbatone has no commercial interests. But the people who do not have any interests do not try to prove anything to anybody. It is not the position that their chatterbox sales-pimp has. I do think that they do not “selling anything” but not because they do not want but because I do not think that they can. Pay attention that whatever Silbatone and the Companies associates do does not become a consciousness of audio design. They are sort of freak show – one might observe the result and take note, or even get an inspiration but they do not deliver a solution, at least the solution that worth consider. Cesarro or Jeffey Jackson a few years back (before he was fucked up by Joe Robert metastases) did progress the concept. Silbatone is unfortunately just hiding in closet. Do they sell anything or now is irrelevant in my view.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-09-2012

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	32
Post ID:	18157
Reply to:	18156

Progress

I don't think Silbatone has any obligation to 'progress' a concept in the same way that an art gallery or museum has no obligation to modify or improve on its exhibits. They are just showing what is or rather what was.

For what it's worth, I do think that the pre-amp contains some interesting ideas. Someone somewhere has allowed for investment in the materials necessary to make good wound components and, from what could be heard at the ETF, the pre-amp did deliver the performance that it promised. But, as they don't seem that keen to sell many it's largely irrelevant other than as an exercise in what might be done. I think it probably would stand comparison with most other pre-amps. With regard to the power amps, I don't know enough about them to know whether the same can be said.

It is interesting to have the opportunity to hear an old speaker system such as the WE15 alongside supposedly the best other commercial offerings albeit at a show. The Cessaro room was just along the corridor but I didn't find that engaged me at all. I can appreciate the thinking behind it and the quality of its construction but as a system I couldn't enjoy it. On the other hand, I did think the Greek horns were working quite well.

I wasn't inspired by many of the other systems there. The Ocean Way speakers had some promise perhaps.

I'd like to see Silbatone attempting to make a large scale 'modern' speaker, perhaps even using the GIP drivers if those are what they like and addressing the shortcomings of the WE designs. They have the resources to do it but whether they will or not, I don't know.

05-09-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	33
Post ID:	18158
Reply to:	18156

The Mystic (On the Road Again)

All this reminds me of any number of semi-secret repositories of "arcane knowledge" that may eventually be found by the relentless, dilligent seeker. I do see this as a way of marketing something to people that will be pre-sold by the time they figure out how to buy. Finally finding such a "library" (or Master, or Whatever...), is anyone ever truly surprised by the number of people that arrived earlier, or by the sadly dim collective mentality of the successful aspirants? These days you can just google Hermes Tres Magistis, or Rosenkreuz, etc., etc., etc.

Do the people who worship these old speakers (and even the old electronics) ever play the old recordings through them? If not, this seems like a missed opportunity. Some of the old records actually are VERY fine.

Paul S

05-09-2012

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guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #:	34
Post ID:	18159
Reply to:	18158

Original use

I did wonder about what recordings would have been used through these speakers back in the late 20's. The electronic recording of music only began in around 1926, prior to that the recordings were entirely acoustic. (although some of those acoustic recordings are very good) Cinema sound would have been in its infancy and a bandwidth of 90 Hz to 7 KHz might have been perceived to be enough, for a while anyhow. I doubt that anyone would have been using the speakers in a domestic setting.

In Munich they did play some rather nice older recordings from the 50's at least.

EDIT. Not everyone liked the WE speakers. I spoke with several people including a couple of HiFi reviewers who thought they were terrible. But alot did like them and it is really the obligation of other manufacturers to come up with something that is demonstrably better.

05-09-2012

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	35
Post ID:	18161
Reply to:	18159

Mecenas

Well maybe the rich Korean fellow just wants to advance the knowledge of audio as he knows it, by droping a bunch of cash at it, which never hurts!
They claim that Silabtone will sound like WE...pf I read somehwere that they use Amorphous cores and silver windings and that is the only way to get close, not better, to the original sound of the WE amplifiers, which makes think, what were the original WE amps made of then? And what makes them so hard to duplicate, is it just the badge, the fashion, the aging of the parts:
It seems that the GIP 555 does better the original WE 555, as accepted by the poeple that use the WE 15A, also the Italian reproductions made by Aldo seem to be at least as nice as the original WE 15A, and he also makes some great vintage looking amps and preamps based on what sounds good from the original WE designs and getting rid of the extra baggage, which seems a good idea!

What is very interesting is the fact that the WE 15A is supposed to be a "Full Range Horn" they claim it goes from 90 hz to 7khz, but getting closer to the data it is more like 100 hz to 3 khz, which sounds more terrestrial, they have a must tweeter going in from soemwhere between 4 khz to 5 khz, and sub woofer just filling in, it seems open baffle sounds better with that horn. I havent heard the system myself yet, but have heard a lot of horns, even compression drivers doing 100 hz up to 15 khz and, while it is very nice, it is not as magical as all the claims. Size does matter and I guess the huge horns will have something to say...

05-14-2012

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gordan
Posts 16
Joined on 01-29-2009

Post #:	36
Post ID:	18175
Reply to:	18159

Martion Orgon 2012?

has anyone had a chance to peep into martion room? from some of the regular visitors of munich fair, i've heard that a sound quality in their room with their flagship system (4-way horns with 4 amps and active XO) was much much better than earlier years - and easily preferred over both cessaro and avantgarde presentation.
guy, anyone?

05-14-2012

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	37
Post ID:	18176
Reply to:	18175

Less Martion sound

As far as I remember the former presentations in the latest version there is less softening by the amps without sacrificing tonal neutrality and the digitally controlled bass section has less problems with the room. Mr. Martion always plays a very broad range of music to show that the Orgon is not built for a certain purpose. Kitschy little girl with a guitar, jazz, samba band with large drums in original level, chorus, large orchestra, chamber music, disco sound for grown-ups. People who think SETs with 10% second order harmonic distortion sounds more "musical" probably listen to the little girl only.
After all a clear step ahead that makes the distance to the other horns even larger.

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