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08-06-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 145
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 51
Post ID: 28337
Reply to: 28336
Tai heng
The tai heng sits between the solar and my entire system. It runs all equipment including 20 channels of amplification. Of course the amps vary from 35 to 100 watts only as most speakers are very efficient.Do not hear any degradation in sound because of it, especially instantaneous fff.Will let you know what happens on Romy’s system. On the other hand it did drop the noise floor and transformer hum. Before the solar when Romy was here he chastised me when he entered the room for not tuning the system on it had quieted so much.Luckily I purchased it when it first came out with a $300 discount and no tariffs.
08-06-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,797
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 28338
Reply to: 28337
Astounding!
Perhaps treatments are parallel rather than in-line? However, no tests are necessary if you prefer the sound when it's done like you're doing it.

Paul S
09-14-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 386
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 53
Post ID: 28358
Reply to: 28338
Any news from New solar inverter
Bill, Please let us know more about new electricity system.
Did Romy agree with you about new electricity quality?
Thank you inadvance




www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
10-26-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 29419
Reply to: 28164
How to upset a narcissistic audiophile....



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 29421
Reply to: 29419
A confession for the Gods and the Insecure...


How I Was Defeated by Bill’s Bass — a Confession for the Gods and the Insecure...


Until last week, I lived under the pleasant delusion that I understood sound.

I lectured people about phase alignment the way priests explain salvation — with that slow, merciful tone that hides quiet contempt. Then I went to visit Bill.


In twenty minutes, he destroyed forty years of my intellectual scaffolding. The bass from his system didn’t play music; it pronounced judgment. I wasn’t listening — I was being cross-examined by the universe.


It wasn’t merely impressive. It was insulting. Every decibel whispered: You poor idiot, all your theories are decorative lies.


I sat there trying to pretend I was analyzing, but in truth, I was negotiating with God for a second chance at dignity.


Kant had warned me about this sort of thing. He said the thing-in-itself is forever beyond our grasp. I used to quote that line with the arrogance of someone who believes he’s one of the few who grasped it anyway.


Turns out, Kant was right — and worse, he was laughing. The thing-in-itself turned out to be a twelve-inch driver in Bill’s living room. It didn’t just transcend reason — it annihilated it.


Schopenhauer once said that the world is Will, blind and merciless.

He was wrong — it’s worse. The world is bass.

I felt the Will pounding through my chest like a debt collector from the metaphysical realm. I had always admired Schopenhauer’s melancholy from a safe distance; now I realized he wasn’t sad — he was just under-damped.


Then came Clark Johnsen — the forgotten prophet of polarity, the man who dared to tell us that flipping a wire could flip the soul. I used to laugh at The Wood Effect as an audiophile curiosity; now I realize it was scripture. Bill’s bass didn’t just reproduce phase — it revealed sin. Somewhere between the positive terminal and my pride, inversion became metaphysical.


Jung would have called what happened “an encounter with the archetype.”

I called it a nervous breakdown in D minor.


The sound reached into my unconscious and started redecorating without permission. Somewhere deep inside, my Animus was trying to explain decay time while my Anima screamed for her mother.


And Nietzsche — ah, Friedrich!

He would have adored my humiliation. He’d have said, “At last, Roman, your Übermensch met a woofer bigger than his ego.”

He’d be right. Bill doesn’t measure sound; he creates it. I, meanwhile, stood there clutching my SPL meter like a child holding a plastic sword at Armageddon.


June Singer would’ve sighed sweetly and said, “Darling, this is what integration feels like.”

To which I might have replied, “Integration is overrated; can’t I just be slightly less stupid?”

But she’d insist, as she always did, that the psyche needs both precision and surrender. Bill has both. I have neither — just a notebook full of metaphors and a lifelong subscription to self-doubt.


Marx showed up next, uninvited as usual, and muttered:

“Material conditions determine consciousness.”

He wasn’t wrong — Bill’s bass had just restructured mine.

In that moment, the class struggle was between my intellect and my humility, and the proletariat (humility) finally won.

The means of production now belong to Bill.


Jesus entered quietly. He didn’t bring theology — just compassion. He looked at me the way a good carpenter looks at a badly built shelf: pity with a hint of respect for effort.

He said nothing, because He didn’t have to. His silence had perfect timbre. It resonated somewhere below 30 Hz.


And God — dear God — appeared not as light but as vibration. Not forgiving, not wrathful — just perfectly tuned.

I realized He never stopped speaking; I was simply calibrated for the wrong frequency.

God doesn’t punish; He equalizes.


Somewhere between Kant’s categories and Nietzsche’s laughter, I stumbled upon a small revelation: truth is not objective, not subjective — it’s resonant.

It’s the tremor between perception and reality, where sound becomes meaning.


I’ve started calling this the Sovereign Empathic Epistemology, mostly to make myself sound important again, since philosophy took my self-esteem.


Bill, of course, lives it without naming it. He listens with the humility of a monk and the precision of a sniper. I, meanwhile, write essays about him as if chronicling the discovery of fire, pretending I’m participating in the heat.


I’ll go back next week, mostly out of masochism. I’ll offer to remove his acoustic treatment, knowing full well he’ll tell me to leave.

I’ll go anyway, because my pride is resilient — like mold.

And if truth happens to be hiding in his diffuser panels, I’m willing to risk further humiliation to meet it.


If Kant built the prison, Schopenhauer furnished it, Johnsen wired it out of phase, Jung hung paintings in it, Nietzsche burned it down, Marx rebuilt it for the people, Jesus forgave it, and God turned it into reverb — then Bill recorded the live album.


I came to his house a man of reason; I left a religious artifact with tinnitus.

And if I ever find enlightenment, I hope it’s at 35 Hz, in full stereo, and just slightly too loud to be comfortable.


Postscript: Letter to the Great and Terrible Ones


Dear Professors, Prophets, and Perpetrators,


Immanuel — your categories are as useless in a listening room as I am in a relationship. The thing-in-itself doesn’t just transcend understanding; it mocks it.

Arthur — you miserable genius — I felt your Will. It kicked me in the chest, and I deserved it.

Clark — you beautiful madman — you were right. Phase isn’t polarity; it’s original sin. I repent with my left channel inverted.

Carl — your archetypes are real. One of them lives in Bill’s subwoofer, and I’m considering therapy.

Friedrich — I finally understood your idea of eternal recurrence. It’s the sound of me explaining my theories while Bill presses play again.

June — thank you for insisting that the soul needs both halves. I’m mostly the half that apologizes for existing.

Karl — yes, material conditions shape consciousness. Mine are currently vibrating at 40 Hz, and the proletariat is dancing.

Yuval — myths hold civilization together, but mine just blew a fuse.

Jesus — you said, “Blessed are the meek.” You forgot to add, “and those who admit their frequency response is uneven.”

And God — you magnificent cosmic sound engineer — I still don’t understand You, but I admit the mix is flawless.


So here I am: humiliated, over-educated, and occasionally in tune.

I’ve accepted that I am not the conductor of reality, only a slightly damaged instrument in the orchestra of the absurd.


Yours in sustained decay,

Romy the Cat

(recovering rationalist, self-appointed metaphysician, unlicensed mystic, and a loudspeaker of minor truths)




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 371
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 56
Post ID: 29422
Reply to: 29421
Mmmmm..
Sounds serious Romy.
10-29-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,797
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 29423
Reply to: 29422
One Foot Deep
Per Yates (then Pound), the centre cannot hold. It was just a matter of time before the other cable elevator dropped. Just tell me - please - that we're not talking about a 45 SET driving the 12".

Paul S
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 145
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 58
Post ID: 29424
Reply to: 29423
My system change
Have been experimenting with audio systems since 1963, and finally obtained what I consider to be nirvana (so far of course) about two weeks ago. Since then I’ve been afraid to touch anything on my system for fear of loss of what I’m hearing. 

To begin, my system consists of a Trinnov altitude 16 pre pro using 8 of its channels to act as fourth order crossovers and driver volume balancers and time alignment for my main speakers. The other 12 channels are used for the Auro derived surround channels. The main left, right  channels consist of JL Aufio 13 inch class d driven sobwoofers, self built Edgar designed five foot woofers with two EV12 drivers each, Edgar 14 inch round horns with Vitavox S3 drivers and Tannoy red tweeters from Tannoy 12 inch drivers. These are driven by Romy,s Amp X amplifiers. Crossovers are set at 50, 400 and 10,000 Hz. And I am using the altitude's type five frequency curve with 20-80 volume at +5 dB, 0 dB 80 to 1000 Hz. - 4 dB up. I will leave the surround speakers out as Romy prefers stereo and his observations derive from that.

The room walls are 16 front to 17 ft. Back, 27 to 28  feet long and 14 ft.  tall, with 1 inch thick fiber board walls with 12 inches of paper type insulation. The walls have 8 diffusion grates at various points, and absorption panels at the first reflection points of main speakers. Three of the corners have 8 foot piles of 18 x 18 inch triangles of fiberglass insulation for bass standing wave control.

Electricity noise is controlled by several units in tandem giving almost dead silence from the 105 dB horns.

This was my room until the final change which gave the difference. Sound was very good from 80 Hz. Up but the bass was ok with Romy always commenting that “there's something wrong with it. I could never obtain what he had in his room. He did love the way the room gave an enveloping sound effect with stereo recordings, but agreed there was something missing in the bass and blamed it on my non Vitavox subwoofers. But bore blame on them I guess after the below revelation.

That was until I looked at what the Trinnov company had developed with their software allowing rear room subwoofers to negatively  time align with the bass waves bouncing off the back wall, negating them and stopping muddying of the bass and low frequency standing waves. As I didn't have enough channels of pre amplification to run heir system I tried to figure out a way to obtain this effect. After watching some YouTube info on sound absorption of bass, I got the idea of using fiberglass batts. I chose 

AFB Acoustical Fire Batts, Mineral Wool Insulation, Sound Deadening, Heat Resistant, 2-inch, Case of 6 from Amazon.com as that would give 12 inches of sound absorption and theoretically 24 inches when placed 12 inches from rear wall. That gives a pretty good absorption down to 40 Hz. And lower plus being in cardboard boxes would be less harmful to the rooms air and ambiance. I did cut out the cardboard fronts to absorb all frequencies.

That was the room difference that made all the difference in the sound. Just six boxes of the absorption covering about half of the back wall.All for a total of $600 delivered free by Amazon. On first listen, all became well with the world and my sound room. I do prefer listening in Auro 3d surround to both stereo and sacd 6 channel and Auro 7.1.4 surround, while Romy prefers stereo, but in both cases I,ve finally obtained  bass that sounds real concert hall from great recordings. Romy seems to agree.Anthony, I would recommend trying the trinnov crossovers on your main speakers and experimenting with their four different frequency curves to see what can be obtained compared to diddling with passive crossovers.

BillRoom_1323.jpeg

BillRoom_1324.jpeg


Bill
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 29425
Reply to: 29424
Epistemological Trauma in Bill’s Basement
I think Bill missed in his explanation one small, but I consider it a metaphysically enormous point.
 
Everything I’ve ever known about acoustic treatment applies only to situations where the treatment lives near boundaries — walls, corners, or the fragile psychological border between sanity and audiophilia. Please take me seriously here. Like all of you, I have spent thousands of dollars on “solutions,” which is a polite way of saying I once paid a fortune to vandalize my own living room with foam, diffusers, tubes and other expensive garbage. Then I spent years joyfully throwing it all into the trash, one shameful acoustic panel at a time.
 
I’m not against acoustic treatment itself.  I’m against the cult of acoustic treatment — this quasi-religious belief that salvation comes in fiberglass. Above 100 Hz, fine, treat all you want; below it, we enter a zone where people stop listening and start sterilizing. They turn their listening chairs into dental chairs. They keep stacking larger fiberglass blobs, chasing a bass response that never arrives, and in doing so they murder the beauty of reverberation above 100 Hz — drying it out like yesterday’s martini. It not even mentioning that the flatness of response is just another ridiculous belief that looks like dominates the feeble audio brains.
 
There was a time when I traveled the world, visiting the flashiest listening rooms filled with enormous bass traps. And I always wanted to vomit in those rooms — so desiccated they were in the viola and cello range. Back then I formed a theory that the whole idiotic world of the audio industry deliberately patronizes one very specific sonic pathology: design SS amplification meant to work in the over-dry rooms. That was twenty-five years ago.
When I first said it publicly on Audio Asylum, the resident couch philosophers — men whose intellectual horizons extended exactly as far as their speaker cables and their partners (an army of pre-court manufacturers dick-suckers) — erupted in predictable moral panic. Within three posts I was downgraded from a “free thinker” to an “adolescent alcoholic,” and then, for reasons unclear to both Freud and God, to a “gay communist nihilist.” The internet, as usual, performed its ritual exorcism. Back then I was angry. Today, post-individuation, I mostly laugh — or more often, I’m simply too bored to acknowledge the noise of lesser minds.  
So, when Bill told me he was working on his “new acoustic treatment,” my soul quietly screamed, please, not again — not another ritual sacrifice to the god of broadband absorption.

Because to me, everything in his room above 50 Hz was already perfect. It’s one of those rare rooms where even conversation sounds aesthetically correct — the acoustic equivalent of good Burgundy.

Now, I’ve always found his low bass laughable. I blamed that pathetic JBL powered subwoofer — a device so topologically compromised it should come with a warning label: “May cause existential despair in sensitive listeners.” I didn’t even dignify it with analysis. After all, I’m not just an opinionated fool on the internet. I’m an experienced opinionated fool — one who once built a mono 23 Hz Helmholtz resonator and a dedicated sub-20 Hz ULF channel, just to see what kind of metaphysical truths might be hiding below audibility. I spent months tuning that monstrous thing, like a monk adjusting the resonance of the universe, and learned exactly nothing — except how deep self-delusion can go when measured in hertz.
So, when Bill started talking about acoustic treatment below 50 Hz, I felt that familiar irritation — the kind that bubbles up when the universe insists you’re still an idiot. I thought it was another audiophile hallucination, men mistaking myth for method.
 
Then came the demo. And damn it, it worked.

I don’t know why. Maybe he doesn’t either. He said some British guy told him that if you place a tuned absorber — say, centered around 100 Hz — a few feet away from the wall, the air gap behind it somehow extends its absorption downward. The engineer in me said, nonsense. The philosopher in me said, fascinating metaphor. The human being in me said, play another track, I’m having an identity crisis.

And yet there it was — this ridiculous, almost insulting improvement.

My mind went into full-blown epistemological panic. Everything I thought I knew about bass suddenly evaporated. It wasn’t just the sound that shook me; it was the collapse of my theory. For an audiophile, that’s worse than hearing a blown tweeter — it’s hearing your own intellect clip at 0 dB.
 
Maybe it wasn’t the panels at all. Maybe Bill’s system — that terrifying labyrinth of cables, filters, and one hundred digital channels — simply misfired in a way that pleased the gods. Maybe he accidentally pressed one of his forty-two billion buttons and the universe whispered, Fine, here’s your miracle.

I left his house not enlightened but slightly humiliated and profoundly entertained — as if Kant himself had walked in, patted me on the shoulder, and said: “See, my friend, experience always precedes understanding.”
 
And so I add one more paradox to the long list of audiophile humiliations - perhaps true knowledge begins the moment your subwoofer stops obeying your logic. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,797
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 60
Post ID: 29426
Reply to: 29424
From D to DSP
Well, Congratulations, Bill! Most of the audio pros I've communed with are dead now, but ALL of them were early adopters of digital and DSP, and they never looked back. Most of them finally stopped trying to convince me that RTA and shaping are the most essential tools for setting up a system.

Are you saying you run your S3s down to 400Hz? If yes, does this mean your S3 horns are 200 Hz?

Best regards,
Paul S
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 145
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 61
Post ID: 29427
Reply to: 29425
Answer to Romy
A 30 Hz. Wave Has a 1 meter wavelength. If one takes 12 inches of this insulation and places against the back wall, it should absorb 30-40 percent of a 30-40 Hz. Wave.ii placed about a foot away from the back wall it should absorb at least 50-60% above 30 Hz. And 100% above 90 Hz, if one extrapolates from the diagrams below. That,s obviously theory. But obviously Romy heard something. Whether that is the cause or not of the improvement, all I can say is that nothing else changed in the room to cause the improvement.a Interestingly, I went around the room last night, played a 20 Hz. Up sweep and noticed a definite decrease in the hills and valleys of bass sound volume in the low bass region. So the bass panels definitely are cleaning the low frequency muddying of the back wall reflection. 
(Insert the two diagrams here.)
So experiment. The batts cost $99.00 each for 12 inch thick 2 x 4 feet packages. Line them up 2 to 3 high depending on room dimensions about 1-2 feet from the back wall and kitty-corner in the room corners. Cut out about 80-90% of the front and back cardboard leaving a 3 inch wide band of cardboard for strength to allow absorption of all wavelengths.Make sure you get the one shown below from Amazon or Roxy l as they are half the price of Owens Corning 703, but have almost the same acoustic absorption specs. The typical room may need 7 to 10 of them. My woofers and subs lay against a wall so there are no side reflections of bass, but for those whose speakers are a distance from the wall may get some improvement placing one at the first reflection point of the woofer and subs side walls.
(Insert Amazon picture here) 

10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 145
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 62
Post ID: 29428
Reply to: 29426
Yes to 400 Hz.
With Romy here, using the Trinnov altitude I could very quickly change crossover points and hear when I began to get horn honk. The woofers began at 47 hz. Which was great as they are supposed to be 50 Hz. Edgar designed. Th mids started honking below 400 so that,s where I placed their crossover. The mids started having a tizziness at about 11,000 Hz. Thus the 10,000 crossover to the Tannoy Red tweeters. Of course my hearing drops off like a stone above 9000 so am unsure whether I can hear the Tannoys. This allows the Vitavox-Edgar mids to take in 90% of the frequency band. With that the Trinnov through experimentation could time align all four of the frequency ranges of the  drivers both physically and electrically to millimeter precision, and then time align all of the 12 channels of speaker for the main listening chair. And to be able to do it sitting in my listening chair not moving a muscle or having to change out resistors or caps, shorten or lengthen inductors Or move speakers by millimeters to time align each to the listening position.So you are correct that for those whose speakers use digital only and probably those who don't mind bastardizing their analog through a to d conversion, dsp is the way to go. I envy Anthony as he starts down the long trail of realizing what the Trinnov will allow him to do. It took me four years of learning how to use the Trinnov to its fullest potential to get to what Romy and I hear now. I just wish I had the will and energy (and funds) to try Wave forming with the Trinnov. Good luck Anthony.Bill
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 371
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 63
Post ID: 29429
Reply to: 29428
Bass traps
Bill, Romy,

This is my solution to the bass, see them on the walls in this photo:


VPR Unskinned.png

Romy in particular, note the all steel construction.  There is some foam in them behind the steel plate and the entire trap is only about 4"-5" wide.  These bass traps do not absorb the mids and highs, in fact they reflect them back into the room...the room in this state sounded terrible...great in the bass but strident elsewhere just like listening in a room of ceramic tiles and glass walls...horrible.

Then you treat the mids and highs back to normality with some simple wood panelling:

VPR Skinned (Large).png



Mids and highs are beautiful again because they are reflected by the panelling, bass has clarity and massive texture because it does not even realise the panelling is there and is handeled by the bass traps.  Those bass traps are effective 30Hz-600Hz, with some effect at 20Hz if the trapdoor to the room is closed. 

Bill, I would be surprised if what you are hearing is NOT due to shorter reverberation times in bass frequencies.  In my experience, the lower in frequency you are able to hold an even decay time in the room, the better the bass/sound.

Regarding the Trinnov, I am yet to really get in and play with it.  The Waveforming feature is exactly the same as a Double Bass Array but you need multiple subs in front of you and behind you for the feature to work, which is fine, but I do not have the room behind me.  I expect that oce properly setup in room Waveforming could be transcendental.

With the bass in my room now well controlled by analogue methods such as these bass traps and subwoofer placement, how the bass is made has more importance.  That sense of envelopment with stereo that is possible when some of the bass is made behind you is a wonderful effect, even though you cannot locate where the bass is coming from, that envelopment happens nonetheless.  Waveforming may eliminate this effect.  Also, being able to use high quality amplifiers and alter the balance/volume of the bass sources within the room may be where the last 10% of bass quality is found, and is where I next intend to investigate.

What is nice though, is that when someone with a lot of audio experience sits in your room and says "I've never heard bass like that"...which has happened to both of us it seems...or when you drive them to question their mantra...which only you have done. 

10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 29430
Reply to: 29429
Place, I did everything to convince you that it is something serious.
Guys, I think you’re missing something important behind all my joking around. What I’m really trying to get people to do is to think deeper—to stop being blinded by data that has no real connection to human sensuality.

Let me pose a question, and you can find the answer for yourself.

Bill has achieved excellent bass with his acoustic treatment. Everything seems fine; everyone nods approvingly. We convince ourselves that the secret lies in how bass reflects off the back wall, and Bill, being ingenious, introduced large panels spaced from the wall to control low frequencies. Wonderful.

But then Bill switches to Auro. Everything else is the same. The system is calibrated so that the transition from stereo to Auro should sound identical. Yet, in the same room, with the same equipment, I personally find the sound less interesting—and more importantly, the new beautiful bass has vanished. It’s back to what he had months ago: dull and uninspired.

Now, there are two possibilities.

The first is that the bass improvement had nothing to do with reflections at all—especially since Auro can simulate virtually any imaginable reflections.

The second is that Bill’s Auro configuration interacts poorly with his new room acoustics and needs to be completely rethought. In that case, the experiment I’d suggest is simple: sit comfortably in the new room, run Auro, turn off the rear channels, and then—slowly, very slowly—dial them in until (if ever) the bass returns to its stereo glory.

If he finds that setting, we must carefully analyze what makes it different from the “recommended” configuration, because that difference might hold the key to understanding what’s really happening.

But my instinct says he won’t find it—and here instinct itself must yield to reason. Rather than filling the void with casual conjecture, we might instead treat this as a small but genuine research question. If identical acoustic conditions produce dramatically different low-frequency behavior depending on the playback algorithm, then something measurable, repeatable, and potentially significant is happening. It deserves the kind of attention we usually reserve for real experiments: controlled variables, documented results, and honest scrutiny.

And if, after all that, the instruments reveal nothing while the ear insists otherwise, then perhaps the mystery lies not in physics but in perception itself—in that delicate, ambiguous frontier where expectation and sound intertwine.

I say this not to dismiss what we hear but to elevate it—to suggest that behind Bill’s missing bass might be a subtle truth about how phase, algorithmic reconstruction, and human sensuality meet in the act of listening. I don’t claim to know what that truth is. But I know it’s worth finding.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 371
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 65
Post ID: 29431
Reply to: 29430
Three possibilities
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 

Bill has achieved excellent bass with his acoustic treatment. Everything seems fine; everyone nods approvingly. We convince ourselves that the secret lies in how bass reflects off the back wall, and Bill, being ingenious, introduced large panels spaced from the wall to control low frequencies. Wonderful.

 


No, Bills sound is better because he is letting the bass note happen for less time in the room than he was before.  It bounces off all the walls all the time...30Hz is 11.5m long wavelength so does not fit in most rooms... and those big new traps mean it is soaked up more quickly.  The position of the traps within the room matters only to the amount of bass frequencies that can be soaked up, and the sound in the room is better because a bass note now only lasts half a second in the room rather than 1 full second like it did before and it is not messing with that next half second of sound.  


 Romy the Cat wrote:
 

But then Bill switches to Auro. Everything else is the same. The system is calibrated so that the transition from stereo to Auro should sound identical. Yet, in the same room, with the same equipment, I personally find the sound less interesting—and more importantly, the new beautiful bass has vanished. It’s back to what he had months ago: dull and uninspired.

 

Bill has additional subwoofers for surround duties...this is a very different circumstance to the stereo playback.


 Romy the Cat wrote:
 

Now, there are two possibilities.

The first is that the bass improvement had nothing to do with reflections at all—especially since Auro can simulate virtually any imaginable reflections.
 


Auro is by definition a delayed response from the immersive speakers, including a delayed bass response, so is totally different to stereo playback and will always sound quite different. 

10-31-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 29432
Reply to: 29431
Please.
Antony, please don’t take this as personal criticism — I offer it with respect, and with a sincere wish to keep our dialogue meaningful. When we speak with absolute confidence, it’s wise to reserve even the smallest margin — perhaps one percent — for the possibility that we might not see the full picture. That single percent is not weakness; it’s the space through which real insight enters.

You reminded me recently of a colleague who once challenged my solution to a complex problem. He declared, with great certainty, that what I proposed was “theoretically impossible,” supported by his thirty years of experience. What he didn’t know was that the same solution had been running successfully in production systems across several companies for nearly a decade. His conclusion wasn’t malicious — it was simply limited by his frame of understanding.

That’s why I must be honest with you. The confidence in your responses feels absolute, but the depth behind them seems only partial. Your argument that shorter reverberation time improves bass, for example, isn’t just oversimplified — it reflects a misunderstanding of the phenomenon itself. I’m not offended by it, but I do recognize when certainty is masking incompleteness.

Please understand — I have no desire to hurt you or diminish you. But I’ve changed. I no longer allow anyone, even unintentionally, to project their version of truth onto me as if it were the only one. I can endure disagreement, even insult; that’s fine. What I cannot accept is being pressed into psychological submission or cornered into reactions that aren’t truly my choice.

It’s important that you know this not as a threat, but as a quiet boundary. I stand very still, and I do not move easily — not out of pride, but because I know exactly where I stand. My suggestion to you is to protect your own equilibrium in this exchange. Approach me, if you wish, not with assertion, but with depth and curiosity. That’s where real dialogue — and mutual respect — can exist.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-31-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 371
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 67
Post ID: 29433
Reply to: 29432
Apologies
Romy, reading back at my previous post you are correct, I was not leaving any wriggle room and was talking in absolutes.  I apologise and will try to not post unless I at least have time to reread what I've written, or better yet prepare a post with fleshed out opinion and consideration such as you share.  Not easy to do when I seem to only be able to grab moments for this sort of internet stuff...

But I still don't think I am wrong about the basic premise of the post...it was just too curt in delivery.

Sigh...have to go.
10-31-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,797
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 68
Post ID: 29434
Reply to: 29433
"Incremental Change" and Personal Results
For a long time I have sold the idea that audio changes using different topologies can happen by degrees, and what is unsaid (but pretty much implied) is that different topologies might "overlap" (+/-) in terms of audible results. "Audible Results" is loaded because we are back to the listener, a personal person in a particular situation. As one example, when messing around with speakers that are "close to DPoLS", one might hear big changes from small movements of drivers and/or listener. Not to be simplistic, but perhaps Bill has "stumbled" across a physical combination that delivers good bass in his situation? Sure, it would be nice to have a working theory, but don't we always say, "If you achieve DPoLS, call for the cement mixer."? It may well be, and I have seen/heard it many times, that "the same gear in the same configuration" produces different results. In fact, I would go so far as to say this is usually the case. Bill has worked hard for a long time and used his ears while so doing. God Bless him. I dare anyone to copy him. Meanwhile, I'm not going to bring up Remedios...

Paul S
10-31-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,797
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 29435
Reply to: 29434
Why "Should" Auro Bass Sound Like Stereo Bass?
I just realized that I simply don't understand why Bill's Auro or stereo "should" make the same (audible) bass. Why should that be?

Paul S
10-31-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 145
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 70
Post ID: 29436
Reply to: 29435
It shouldn't and doesn't.
While Romy prefers stereo, I prefer auro 3d surround, especially with Auro recorded music and sacd's. While ambiance r3covery with Auro 3d does not have all of the qualities of the 6 to 12 channel original recordings, it does add significant feel of being in a concert hall where deppnding on wher one is sitting, the ambiance may be 10 to 80 percent of what one is experiencing. 
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