Thanks for the info Meiko41 !

At what load (the percentage on the display) does the noise from the capacitors becomes annoying ? Do the fans stay always on or they kick in when you reach certain temperature ? I guess the fan is not an issue if the temperature is not above say 50 deg C as you can always use some sort of 12v -> 9v adapter like in computer fans to reduce the rotations.

Petrasescu_Lucian wrote:

Thanks for the info Meiko41 ! At what load (the percentage on the display) does the noise from the capacitors becomes annoying ? Do the fans stay always on or they kick in when you reach certain temperature ? I guess the fan is not an issue if the temperature is not above say 50 deg C as you can always use some sort of 12v -> 9v adapter like in computer fans to reduce the rotations.

First of all, guys, can you name your posts on more identifiable way?

A few comments I would like to make. I heard that the new revision of PP2000 has fans that do not run at full speed all time but have the speed of fans driven by thermosensor. It is good but not too huge as I did not detect that fans noise in PP2000 was a problem.  The noises that bother your, Meiko, is not the “noises from capacitors”. Capacitors have no noise. The noises you comment upon are the switching pulses themselves go over PP transformers I presume.

The might be loud if you drive A lot of power and if you PP2000 sits right next to your listing location. I hope the APS will look at it in future. It shell not be so difficult to damp the noises at source, putting the source in a little patted sarcophagus. It might be the issues with cooling the thing but I am sure it is resolvable. The APS never care about it as this unit stated as a commercial UPS devise where noise never a problem. Now the APS is a few years in the audio market and I think it does make sense for them to calm down the switching noise. If you look at all class D power amps of 3-5kW for audio then they all run practically silent, not to mention that they run at higher caring frequency then PP2000 does. So, the switching noise might be easily addressed.

Still, at my level of priorities I would not considers it as a big deal. The PP2000 is in away a “radioactive” unit that shall not sit close to playback anyhow. I keep my in closet with open door. The good thing that the switching noise is relatively HF and it is very directional. So, it beams from PP2000’s holes and it is not hard to keep it out of listening area.

Romy the Cat wrote:

First of all, guys, can you name your posts on more identifiable way? A few comments I would like to make. I heard that the new revision of PP2000 has fans that do not run at full speed all time but have the speed of fans driven by thermosensor. It is good but not too huge as I did not detect that fans noise in PP2000 was a problem.  The noises that bother your, Meiko, is not the “noises from capacitors”. Capacitors have no noise. The noises you comment upon are the switching pulses themselves go over PP transformers I presume. The might be loud if you drive A lot of power and if you PP2000 sits right next to your listing location. I hope the APS will look at it in future. It shell not be so difficult to damp the noises at source, putting the source in a little patted sarcophagus. It might be the issues with cooling the thing but I am sure it is resolvable. The APS never care about it as this unit stated as a commercial UPS devise where noise never a problem. Now the APS is a few years in the audio market and I think it does make sense for them to calm down the switching noise. If you look at all class D power amps of 3-5kW for audio then they all run practically silent, not to mention that they run at higher caring frequency then PP2000 does. So, the switching noise might be easily addressed. Still, at my level of priorities I would not considers it as a big deal. The PP2000 is in away a “radioactive” unit that shall not sit close to playback anyhow. I keep my in closet with open door. The good thing that the switching noise is relatively HF and it is very directional. So, it beams from PP2000’s holes and it is not hard to keep it out of listening area. The Cat

I wonder, does anyone has any experience of runs audio from Solar panels. I do not talking about conservations or environmental impact but I am curios if Solar electricity is different Sonically then the AC from the grid.

I come to this ides reading site of an audio friend of mine who run Stoutridge Vineyard:

http://www.stoutridge.com/green.php

I wonder, if to connect to those Solar panels not the distillers or the vinery heaters but plates of SET amps then what will happen with sound?

Hi,

Have been going through this thread with great interest. Am also in the market for a good regenerator and have been doing some reading up on the online converting UPS. would anyone have any experiences with any of the commercial online UPS and hence the difference the Purepower has from it (Eg www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=163) ?
the only difference as per spec is the noise (the audible sound form the UPS)..50dB for the APC 2000 version vs below 17dB for the purepower. But the question is are there any sonic differnces which you could think of ?

Hi, gravetones

I asked myself the same question many time and even bought a few years back one of the APC on-line power supply. It is unquestionable that PurePower is an adaptation of a regular commercial on-line power regenerator and all that PurePower did was accommodating it for audio use. The minimization of noise, handling high inarch currents I guess was one of their objectives but I sure there was many others. As I understand PurePower works for a few years to improve whatever they do – effective or now, true or false but I am sure they know more about sound of the regular on-line power regenerators then the people at APC. Still, it absolutely does not mean that tomorrow you will not buy another off the shelf commercial regenerator that turn out to sound very good.

I have written about it before – the problem with standard commercial APC units that it is imposable to try them. I for installs would like to have 5-10kW, big and noisy PurePower-like regenerator that would be sitting in basement. With PurePower, paying approximately twice what you would pay for a commercial unit you have change to try it, return it, bitch about Sound of the unit and be benefited with whatever PurePower did with it to make it accommodateably -better for audio use. With a standard commercial on-line devise you will not have this option. A few years back I did spent a LOT of time with APC higher echelon support over the phone and I was not able to find people worth taking about audio side of their regenerators.

I think your question shall be an induction for PurePower that they need to put hands out of ass and publish a position paper that would highlight the distinction (in their view) between the PurePower and a commercial on-line unit.

Romy the Cat wrote:

.

Since I posted my comments last year a few folks I know bought PP2000. To “sell” PP2000 was not my intention, in fact the people who know me know that I hate when it happen. Apparently Gog punished them and reportedly they are not happy with their PP2000 performance. Hey, I do not believe in God but it look like God works!

To my great surprised, and in contrary to experience of others, my own PP2000 worked admirable.  Wonderful sound, caring the whole system, including digital section of DAW and big power input chokes for my Milq. Over the year I had not single problem with PP2000, never turned it down, hundreds and hundreds times plug into it different shoe and stage the playback. My PP200 care now 20 outlets, 19 of them used. I could not expect more. Well, keep your breathe, as I would like to drop a few words about the expectations later.

The upper sinusoid “fuzziness” that I reported last year still was not fixed by APS. I had many conversations with them and they assured me that they knew what was the problem - a bug in the battery charger.  The fix was easy and APS promised to implement the fix in two month, then in 4 months, then to ship in July, then to promise that in the end of September it will be done… As I told - today is December… not results.  I do not particularly bitchy about it as I am accustomed the APS has own definition of “progress” and “pace”, I juts wish then do not promise the specific time if they know that it will not be done punctually. I still think that soon or later then will address the problem, I hope it will happen before my future Alzheimer will make me to forget the problem. Also, as I told that I do not detect any negative sonic consequences of the “fuzziness”, so I kind of afraid that fixing the PS for the battery the ASP might inadvertently  to toss baby along with water….

Last weekend I took my measurement equipment and retested the APS – everything, including the DC, was as year ago – no dirt anywhere. I would not say that APS Purepower completely got rid my dependency from electivity. Over the course of the last year I did have 3-4 bad electricity days when I was recognized some problems with sound. However, the problems were orders of magnitude less severe if they would be without he APS. Also, it was 3-4 days of it a year – formerly I had 3-4 days I year of good electricity sound, now I have 362 of those good electricity days.

So, what next. I would probably get another PP2000 or lobby the APS to make 3000-4000 units.  I would prefer to have one big unit as I would like do not have two grounds. I would like APS to eliminate that minor dependency the PP2000 has from the grid. The very first PP1050 that I tried had absolutely indistinguishable sound when it was raining from grid or from buttery. My current PP2000 doe has the different in waveform and in sound. The waveform looses the “fuzziness” when it runs from buttery. Sonically Sound from buttery has more traction and more articulate midbass. The degree of dies is very very very small, practically negligible but it is there. Well, it is negligible during an average electricity day – how about the worse electricity day? It is possible that addressing the “fuzziness” then will kill the dependency to PP200 from the grid quality, well will see how it will go. Also, I would very much love the APS to implement a bypass switch to the unit that would allow a system by flipping a switch in real time to run from PP2000 or from the raw power grid. Did I mention a remote control for this functionally?

All together I am very happy with it and I with horror remember as I was trying listening music only when electricity was more or less tolerable. Who could believe that “freedom” comes to US from Canada and made in China….

A 6moon-level company from Connecticut - Red Wine has own solution – to power from low-voltage DC

http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/black-lightning

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72215.0

Probably for someone who run a playback from SS A/B equipment (like 47Lab and alike) it might be an interesting solution. The solution is not controversial in my view but worth to explore. Of course some of the statements the Red Wine makers are very questionable:  “Uses an external charger to physically separate the clean battery power from the battery charger, isolating mains (AC) noise”

Romy the Cat wrote:

A 6moon-level company from Connecticut - Red Wine has own solution – to power from low-voltage DC So, they claim that their buttery might release current being charged at the same time and it will not have any impact to sound? A bold statement… The Cat

Paul S wrote:

Of course I have read everything that's been written about fixing bad electricity, and I have tried to get a feel for what all the talk means. In this and other matters I tend to use "reason and logic" right up to the last second, then I make an intuitive decision.

The example of the APS’ regeneration and the quality of sound attainable has clearly proved that class D is the way to do the things in audio electricity. I have been asking myself what is next? Well, this is not a question that I ask myself in a normal way but the question that I was asked.  In my post from yesterday I clearly indicated that I will be looking to have an a business on a side

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=12555

From all options I have a business in audio field is something that I would not even consider, because multiple reasons. However, talking with a friend of mine last night about the subject of my side-business he asked me if I temporarily suspend my aversion to audio and if  feel that there is a niche in the audio market. To my own surprise I told to him that I would conditionally be interested to take offence against ASP 2000.

I have no idea how successful and profitable ASP operation but I do feel that whatever they do I am sure in sales might be multiplied tremendously. In what the APS does in my view there is fantastic opportunity if the APS idea would be developed in right direction.  The APS has a now-how and they know (deliberately or accidently) what makes a regenerator to sound good. So, what I feel is need to be done.

A new company needs to be formed with aim to one single product: the new generation of ASP regenerators.  The idea is to bring onboard of APS one serious designer (it looks like they do not have any now) and to make a next generation of the class D regenerators, using the very same ideas that APS has collected but to package them differently. Pretend a very small (vertical) PS devise, let see 4-6 times smaller then APS 1050. Nicely and homey finished with extensive indication (a full bloom distortion analyzer would cost $5 nowadays) and remote control. No battery, no charging, single power port output. You need more power port then use a power strips. The unit care 2-3kW and futures the contemporary active cooling techniques. It is easy accomplishable nowadays, in fact the space of 4-6 times smaller then APS 1050 might with proper cooling dissipate 500-700W that would make the new APS to care 3kW with a huge reserve. Silent, reliable, indestructible, small, light with default ASP Sound and a silk looking. It is perfectly accomplishable if it was engineered this way. The current APS 2000 is a design from beginning of 90s. It is 20 years passed since then. Add to it a price tag of $1500 and it would be it would be some that would literally put a new APS 2010 in each single audio or HT home.

Ironically it is not too much need to do it. An good design-engineer who would developer all technological documentation cost nowadays $120K per year. It would be good to higher such a person on consulting base: 3-4 months and the unit would be design and tested.  Then to find a right manufacture in China. Nowadays it is not hard. Let say a production run costs $50K with $120 per unit. This will lead to 416 units by $1500 it would make $624K. Let loose 30% for normal peripheral losses – it would be still a wonderful business with option of second year to be perfectly profitable. I said that a new company needs to be formed as it would put the current ASP out of business. I think if APS wants then they can do it themselves by effectively splitting.

I see it perfectly accomplishable and I wish I had more respect and interest to the industry as I would do it myself. But to recognize that I would need to interact with all those industry cockroaches – it makes me to want vomit. It is possible to run the whole operation and to have some kind of marketing façade, a proxy person, who run sales but I know myself and I know that I will always have “an opinion” about what he does wrong. Anyhow, I think it might be a good opportunity for APS to reinvent themselves…

Paul S wrote:

Back to APS troubles, I can't help but think that some plain, old-fashioned, forthright honesty would go a long way.  I recently read some posts from an APS wonk claiming outright to an HT group that there is absolutely no difference in sound from the Pure Power whether the thing is going only from battery or it is running from wall power.  In fact, he cited this as absolute proof that the thing "works", as advertised.  Too bad it is more important to justify than it is to just keep listening and trying to get it right.

Paul, what APS troubles are you reporting? Also, what problem you have that somebody claiming that there is absolutely no difference in sound from the Pure Power whether the thing is going only from battery or it is running from wall power?  I reported the same things with unit that had no defect with charger. My is unit that has this defect do has a very minor difference between running from buttery and running from wall power but I did stressed that the difference is negligible and has no practical significance. You call that person wonk but frankly I do not think that it is justifiable.  That person (I do not know who it was but he was not a fool) was absolutely right demanding that his unit shell run from battery and from wall with the same sound quality and he was absolutely right assuming that it would be a proof that the thing "works", as advertised.  That was exactly the very first test that I did with my very first PP1050. So, the persons knew what he intended to test, he tested it and he get results. Why are you trying to argue with that person? If you have no objectives in your test and no power devises that would make difference?

Frankly your obsession with being frightened by APS is a bit annoying. I do not think that anybody is trying to solicit you on APS but from the same perspective I do not think anybody pull your for your tang to express an opinion regarding the subject that you are not involved into. I mean you can express any opinion you with but does you think it become subject-less and paranoiac?

On the practical side I know that there were some folks who reported ground problem and I have some emails from the people who reported that the newest APS production do not have those problems anymore. It looks like ASP did find the bug and addressed it. So, I would like to know if the APS has rectified the cases that were on standby for a while.

Anyhow, I know that it cost nothing to make a post but I would like to call people to have at least own reason to make those posts….

Romy the Cat wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6725955.stm No further comments…  The caT

Romy the Cat wrote:

Still, there is an interesting phenomenon that I never was able to understand. I observe Lamm’s show rooms from I think 1998-1999 to 2006 when I did my last audio show. Surprisingly all Lamm rooms at audio shows sound the same, even regardless of what kind acoustic systems they use. It was somewhere along the lines you described - everything is very accurate and good but tedious and disjointed. Ironically tediousness and disconnectivity were never was problem with Lamm electronics in my home or in other homes where I heard Lamms. I do not know where it comes from… Perhaps it comes from the fact that wherever Lamm does his shows to please no other demands then the barbaric and primitive demands of idiots like Fremers and Valins? Hard to say but if it talks like a duck and walk like a duck then it most likely not a porcupine….

Somebody Erick Lichte at his Stereophile blog posted a comment about Lamm/Wilson room at CES 2010

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010/super_priced_lamm_system/

Erick’s comments, Saturntube’s comments, Jason Serinus comments, the comments in response to the Erick’s blogs and many of my personal observations about sound Lamm’s show rooms are very in the same boat – Lamm’s room sound very hi-fi-ish on the shows. Still, I believe that this hi-fiishness: excessive brightness, compression, metallic electronic harsh edge around tones and many other unpleasant properties I heard from Lamm’s rooms at the show are not the properties of Lamm electronics and not the properties of Wilsons. From where I stay now I feel that all of it a result or Lamm neglect of electricity. Lamm’s PS, at least what I had are very susceptive to electricity problems and from what I remember and what I see Lamm does not use the PP2000, which is in my view monumentally stupid.

I kind of like the low-key of the PurePower marketing. They looks do not give their units to reviewers and do not advertise.  If I run the PurePower Company then knowing what PP2000 is able to do with sound I would do the following trick: I would get 50-100 PP2000 units, load them into track and drive to CES. Then a day before the show I would lend for free PP2000 to any vendor. Electricity in Vegas is famously bad and any vendor person with ears after a few notes of the PP2000 listening would love to power own room during the show. All that all that needed to be done is to walk over rooms with video camera, correlating the sound in the room with the fact of the PP2000 presents. The best would be to go on Saturday night and recall all PP2000 units (how about a remote-control activated bypass!!!)  Then to demonstrate how much Sound of the show goes to drain without the use of the PP2000.

Or course to pull stunt like this would make many manufacturers angry but fuck them, they hate each other anyhow and suck each other blog as they could. What is also would do is educate, really educate public awareness what is going on.

Interesting, I never heard the company’s products nor about the company. I have read everything they said.

http://www.tripointaudio.us/

I do not know how to interpret their claim it might be anything from pure BS to something real. Mostly the “features” described in these units are undoubtedly BS. They have own proprietary passive filtration components. I do not know what it is and have no idea how it sound. I know that one can have electricity with no EMI/RFI and still have electricity to sound not well. So, it is hard to say anything. The most controversial element in the Tripoint Audio description is their insistence that their units are passive but at the same time they correct AC waveforms. The only way to do it with passive units is to use resonators but then you can’t not make claims that unit uses no coils or caps. If the Tripoint is a passive unit that have no waveforms correction and all that it does is high-sonic quality noise filtration then I would like to see the waveforms and harmonic spectra before and after of the unit.

Anyhow, the company is in Florida and the only think that they missing from their site is an offer for in-home trial. If they care to sell those units that this is the way how it shall be done. There is a good tradition endorsed by practically all power devises selling companies – they all give this unit for in home trial. All that Tripoint need to do is to make a dozen of their units without that idiotic “elegant appearance”, laser engraved aluminum plates, African Bubinga BS and to send them to people to test the “functionality”. So far I am curios but not impressed.

From: http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/the_silence_of_grounding/

"Based on a new concept, the device uses passive filtration in the form of magnetism and layers of different materials (brass, copper, and proprietary products) to eliminate and reduce EMI and RFI."