miab wrote:

Romy the Cat wrote:   Hm, I was so proud about myself for a few days. I thought I have a key how to render my midbass horn in perfects time-aligned position and to make it literally invisible in my new room. It was such an elegant design!!! It still might be renderable but I discover some aspects in the new house that can make it very hard to implement. I was already thinking about the color patter of my new horns! Such a blow!!!   What did you find in the new house that will not allow you to do that? There might be a way around it.

Miab, I thought about this properly a lot. There is a lot in this house that I like from audio perspective. I like how the listening room talks with the other rooms and a few other moments. The most important is that the listening room allows using a semi-long-wall configuration, has enough for my objective volume and still not huge to lose the near-filed configuration.  I have been looking for right house from July and this is the very first that i was able to like in the neighborhood that I like, having other amendment trhat I like and is in my price range. I think the size of the listening room is perfect for what I am trying to accomplish: not too small to let Macondo to breathe free but not too large where Milq would clip to handle the power.

When I saw the house for a first time, I literary in my car right after the open house drew a plan how the midbass hours might be implemented in there. Below is the representation of the idea. The sealing below the moths of the midbass horns is cathedral, with wings doing right and left. The space above is a regular triangle roof with attic. So, there is a triangle wall in the second floor between the cathedral listening room and the house attic, where both roofs shape “T”. So, my idea was to cut off that triangle wall on the “second floor” of the listening room and slide in the attic a pair of the midbass horns, having their mouths to be the triangle wall. It is 19 feet by 6-8 feet – a good dimension to have two mouths.

Upon further inspection I have learned in the location what the horns shall be there are the beams from the perpendicular roof. That sucks! There is an option however. The beams that are in my way are the legacy of the attic roof but it is still under the cathedral roof. So, hypothetically the beams can be cut to accommodate the horns but I am afraid that it will screw up the structural integrity of the attic roof. So, I might bring a roof specialist to evaluate if those internal diagonal studs might be removed. Alternatively it would be possible to keep the existing beams in the mouth of the horns. I wish it were easier…

I do have alternative ways how the big horns might be done in the room (option B) but I will lose the time-alignment.

Yes, Jessie, this is the direction that I am contemplating - to put up a vertical poll to support the attic main beam and to cut the 4-5 diagonal lowering beams that lead to my working triangular wall.  Also the residue of the attic roof under the cathedral roof needs to be removed. My initial sentiment was that it would be essay but not I see that it will be not, if it is ever doable.

If I get the house then I would move in, get conformation from professional roofers or architect that what I would like to do is doable. Then I would devise a detail plan for the horns and for the way how the horns would be imbedded into the house. I am planning to recruit a horn builder I know to overview the design of horn and to consult my local woodworker. Facing and accepting the task is not a problem to me if I clearly see that the project will be successful and if I have all necessary lavers to navigate the project.

The alternative option is to put the horns in the 4 large 5x7 feet windows that the opposite wall has but it has few moments that I do not like. The time-alignment is the key for me and with midbass-horns are behind the MF channels is too much delay. Second, is that I would like to preserve front wall of the listening room. There is a lot of potential in it. It has 4 huge window-doors 5x7’ that allow making the whole width of the listening room wide open to open air.  Right behind the window-doors is a deck and then a forest. I do not know how the birds singing and sound of the near stream will be compatible with my Bruckner but I very much like the idea of playback be able to operate in a virtual open air. It looks like the neighbors will be not the subject in this house as they are 1) too far 2) the cathedral room will be doing the detractively shaping and the sound will go mostly to the forest. So, I would prefer do not put the front to the front wall…

As you see, Jessie, the house is very promising and I can’t wait to start paling with that room!

jessie.dazzle wrote:

As you pointed out, you've finally found a place with many positive points; this gives it, for you, a certain value beyond its purchase price. Over here where all real estate is not only valuable, but down right precious, people do not hesitate to rip into the main structure of very old, multi-floor buildings, often times with 4 or 5 floors of families living above, slip in a few big jacks, add a huge beam, and knock out an offending wall.

Thanks, miab

I am encouraged that your guys feel that it is doable. I was cowling in the attic and had very bad feeling. The beams (you call them trusses) are VERY thick and the attic is not a full waking. The house has center AC and my red triangle red wall has two vents. I thought that it is not a big deal to relocate them but being the vents are 2-feet-wide diameter.  The roof is cut just to accommodate the vent’s pipes, so the Red Wall is nit well reachable from attic. So, the Red Wall needs to be collapse from the cathedral room and then the attic space needs to be freed from there.

I presume that horns need to be assembled in the cathedral room, lifted up and slide to the attic, stopping mouths were the Red Wall used to be. Then the Red Wall need to be rebuilt around the mouths of the horns.  If and when I moive I would need some to evaluate all of this. I would LOVE to do is as it would make the horns time-alight, load cathedral ceiling from the mouth of the horns and even will extend the volume of cathedral room.  Funny it will not even diminish the cost of the house and it will use the space that is not being used now.  I wonder in 50 years what I will be long gone the people will be wonder what the hell formers owners were trying to do in there….

The 40Hz, ½ size, 13’-14’ hyperbolic at .7 midbass in time-align location and invisible in the room (with complimentary LF section)? That might be a LOT of fun! I hope it would all work out.

Ok, the story about the Red Wall is getting stranger …. Further thinning about all of it I came up with a brilliant idea.

The Red Wall has two air-conditioner wants. So, if the horns are built on the Red Wall then why do not make the rents … in the belly of the horns. Look, I install the big horns with a minor tilt toward to the room. At the ¾ of the horn I make a went and connect the air-conditioning pipe to there. Now the air-condoning in blowing inside the belly of the horn and since the cold air is heavier then hot air it will descent into the room and do not go up to the horn driver.  Since the horn will be crossed at let say 150Hz then I do not think that the vent size will be even notable by the wave in the horn. I love the idea a lot! I just concern that the horn will amplify for 6dB the noise from the air passing from the vent…

Paul S wrote:

….it would be easier to speculate if we had some photographs of the areas we are discussing.

I was consulted with people who know and they told me that there is absolutely no problem even if I need to have some of trusses to clear my way. Apparently there are special people who could perform a section of the attic reframing, so it would not be a problem. This news opened a door to my absolute exuberance and I am not suicidal anymore.

I think if a mortgage lenders will not be pissed that my grangrangrangrangrangrangrangrandmother was doing something that they do not what her to do 250 years back then I will close this house. Audio-wise, from what I have seen it is the most exciting and perspective listening room I have observed since the last July. In fact from many perspectives this room is near perfect. Sure, I would like the cathedral room to be 3-4 feet longer. I would like the floor of the cathedral room not to be suspended.  Still, I think those imperfection are workable and I might even learn in future how to convert those disadvantages into advantages, I have a good record to do it.

Perhaps from the ritualistic-superstition perspective I do a mistake thinking about the house’s modification before I close it but integrating my listening room into the home where I live is a big objective of mine, so I would like to have a clear vision of where I am going.

tuga wrote:

I somehow feel that you should look into the vibration induced resonances that those rooftop horns might create. I'm not really familiar with the all-wood building techniques used in that side of the Atlantic but I have a hunch that unless you either decouple the horns from the structural frames or creat a new free-standing structure the room will rattle somewhat, a like a giant resonant speaker.

I was thinking about it myself. I do not know if horn will be able to create non-air transduced resonances that house structure will be able to pick up – I will be able to say it only when the horns installed. It might be a good idea to decouple the horns from structure; it might be not even too hard to do as it sound. Still I feel that hard-couple would be more productive. I think to tight the horns to trusses, taking advantage if the trusses’ mass and thickness.  In fact I am condensing to make horn a bit lighter then I would initially consider and to use the mass, the firmness and the steadiness of the roof frame to couple horns. It sure needs to be more analyzed.

…is to see how the Red Wall will load the room.  Following the context of my Imbedded Macro-Positioning subject:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

it would be very interesting to see how the out from the read wall will relate to the acoustic pressure at the listening location. I would love it to be in “hot spot” and to get +6-10dB but you would never know. I did not bring RTA to the inspection and I do not know how that room works. If I lucky then in addition to 6-8dB of hyperbolic gain I will be able to get 6-8dB of room gain then it would be phenomenal.  15dB gain from 99dB sensitive driver it would be fantastic and I will be able to power it with 2W (I still intend to power it with 6C33C).

Also,  and this is the subject of my great interests, I wonder if there is any way to use the cathedral opening of the ceiling as a continuation of the horn. If I would be able to introduce the hone mouth at the perimeter of the cathedral ceiling then the cathedral opening would be a continuation of the horn curve. What I am thinking to try it to put a divider of 3-5 feet long in the middle of the cathedral ceiling axis. This divider would set a transition between the horn mouth and the cathedral pitch. If I am lucky then I might even go away with ¼ horn – I need to measure and to calculate the rate of the halt- cathedral opening. The picture below depicts the idea.

Saturntube wrote:

Anyone has some sort of comparison between compression drivers against cone (dynamic) drivers in a this huge mid bass horns, or even upper bass horns.     All I heard are this guys from Germany with the out of reach expensive GOTO compression bass drivers and Johan with the JBL 2490 MF driver in his upperbass horns.   Anyone with WE 555 drivers?

Saturntube,

I kind of have an attitude toward all of those “out of reach expensive compression bass drivers”. The drivers are insanely important but the quality of the drivers does not eliminate a need to properly use them. Did you see a lot of properly made midbass horns? Did you see then properly integrated into playback? Did you see them time-aligned? Did you see them appropriately powered and crossovered? I have a feeling, and have many evidences, that in the cases people “admire horn bass sound” they are in reality “impressed” by driver’s time misalignment. I did model that sound and I do know what I am taking about. The proper “bass horn sound” is very interesting thing and in my estimate mostly not known by people. Even when people do construct more or less intelligent design then they run the midbass-horns too hard. Honestly, I do not impressed with WE, GOTO, RCA, or God know what else exotic drivers. I am impressed with exotic, well-indented and smart solutions. I do not see a lot of them out there. There are some interesting moves in different installation I saw but very few of them from my point of view do implement the midbass horns as interesting/offensive as they could be.

Sitting in my couch, smoking my cigar, playing Shostakovich quartets and studying my new P&S agreement I discover that it will be sad to lose this listening room. This room is small but such a capable and able for such such intimate sound that I truly love this room. I also know this room so well that I can do with it virtually anything. It will be sad to lose it, not truly sad but it will be some sorrow in it. Well, I guess it is a part of this life…

Anyhow, to if everything go smooth then I will be starting to disassemble this installation on February 16-18. Some local audio folks have asked me to play for them the thing before it will be gone for good. It might be better at the new place – I presume it will be, but I do like what it does here – who know it might be never like this again…

Meanwhile, I am wondering if my attorney could put some language in the contingency of my Purchase and Sale Agreement that would allow reversing the deal if in 6 months my listening room will not sound acceptably.