jessie.dazzle wrote:

Have you ever tried the Community M4? I'd still like to try this driver.

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/technote/M4%20White%20Paper.pdf?PHPSESSID=f38da9ed4831c2a8c2d370de73088b16

http://www.loudspeakers.net/files/specs/new/m4.pdf

I have to note that with all my negativism about this driver, I believe that did not sold them and they might still sitting somewhere deep into my storage, perhaps already turn rusty. I do not know what is the reason of such a bad sound from M4 but I presume that sometimes it would be worth to redo the driver somehow. Perhaps some things might be changed and modified in there and it might throw better sound. The idea to have 4” compression driver for my home does sound attractive…. If I were not pleased with Fane I would look into this future.

tuga wrote:

I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter...

With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.

tuga wrote:

Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation?

Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it…

Romy the Cat wrote:

tuga wrote: I can't find a/the post(s) where you describe the advantages of using a 4 inch throat. Stereo-lab makes both 4 and 8 inch throat 140Hz horns but I don't think they could make an 8 to 4 inch adapter... With Fane 8M you would not need an 8 to 4 inch adapter. It is normal it you use a direct radiator driver as a compression driver than the size of cone is larger than the size of throat, up to the point of course. Fane 8M is 8” but it has very wide skirt of outer suspension that makes it effectively 6.5” driver. The 6.5” loaded into 4” is about to be right ratio.  tuga wrote: Also, would it be advisable to have the Fane cover a wider range, say 250-1000Hz in a more compact and less expensive 4 way installation? Oh, sure. Fane is very fine to shoot all the way up, I used it up to 1000Hz for a while, if fact you can take it even much higher if you wish. It would all depends from how much front chamber you have and how much you stress it with back chamber. BTW, if you add to Fane a phase plug then you can suck out of it even more HF. Fane is very inductive and you will not be able to roll it off at high knee circulated by normal equations but you shell be able to tweak it… The caT

thanks for the help, romy, this is im8, it works, which is good.

This is what I think of m4. taken from website I made, when I could not post here. I will keep it up, as info for this driver is very rare, not much out there about it.

Personally, I like the industrial appearance and it is charming and endearing to me, in both utility and sound. Stock it is very flawed by design, sorry Community! But the intent to create a fine driver is there, and they have done it, in my opinion. So from http://communitym4.wetpaint.com/ the development of this for musical use. The work is so simple, really.

From the site:

"1- Purpose
The use of the largest, most powerful commercial PA usage critical midrange driver for critical, high fidelity application for home, or other use.

2- Problems
Stock unmodified driver suffers from some acoustical problems, all related to it's intended Sound Reinforcement Public Address Use;

(a)- "Lack of Tone"

(b)- Some specific "Frequency Band Colourations" and "Resonances", as heard by me.

(c)- A "Dead" or "Flat" Sounding Quality

(d)- A "Not Right" Sound, evidenced by listening to driver without horn loading, "in the Raw", a proven technique to evaluate qualities in any driver.

3- Some Thoughts on the Original Design
The Stock Driver as conceived by Community seems optimized for the following purposes, and employs the following devices;

(a)- Impervious to the Natural Elements when used Outdoors, "it's intended location", with Rugged, Long Life, Sealed and Gasketed Fiberglass Housing, Plastic Surround, and Aluminium or Carbon Fiber Diaphragm Cone .

(b)- Front Chamber Design, which directs all Acoustical Energy "Sound", to the 4" (four inch) Exit, and includes a Concentric Design Phase Plug, which channels this "Sound" and "Boosts" some frequencies by several Decibels of Total Output.

(c)- Removal of the Front Chamber and Phase Plug reveals that my version has aluminium cone, with Plastic Surround.

4- Findings
This Driver listened to "in the Raw" reveals it's true character and qualities, with immense and intricate sound potential. Romy the Cat's flat out dismissal seems premature, and maybe was done with the stock unmodified driver.

(a)- No front chamber is required for my use.

(b)- No phase plug is required for my use.

(c)- The additional acoustic gain (helpful in a Public Address Venue) is not required in my use.

(d)- The driver sounds effortless, accurate, with very good balance, and with a musical softness, and I can listen to it "in the Raw", and miss it, when it is taken away.

(e)- The vertical design horn is the candidate for this driver, to free up space in the room, a la Romy, visit his site, and search "Hanging MidBass Horn", however, this horn will be smaller, for 200 Hz upwards use.

(f)- The low opinion of many who have heard the stock item, and the undesirability of it because of these opinions, makes this driver not wanted for other than intended PA use, and also makes it a great buy on Ebay! MY OPINION HERE.

(g)- This driver has had much effort and development in it's design, and cannot be underrated any longer, it is a significant step forward in sound reproduction, and cannot be discounted lightly, and I will tailor its output to my audio needs.

5- Future
Uploading pictures next, some videos, and horn. "

I am excited about this one, go figure.
Take care, j.

To get Community M4 to a certain acceptable musical level, take these steps.

Step 1-

If you will use this driver with the 4 inch exit as is , at the very least of first step, take away the phase plug, and line the inside front chamber with felt or padding to avoid the outrageous reflections. This will improve the sound outright.

Step 2-

I you will use this driver without the front chamber (recommended by me) discard this beautifully manufactured fiberglass item with phase plug insert. I will post pictures of some better uses for it soon.

take care, j.

Please bear with me, Romy, this is work in progress, be patient, it will be done.

nothing tried nothing learned, take care, j.

Take your hands and form a cup over your mouth with a small exit hole and listen to the stock M4 sound. 

Not pleasant, very nasal, but amplified some decibel DB's, do you disagree?

j.

I do not think my topology is relevant, (it took me 3 months to get my studio horns to sound right 20 years ago so I expect this again, it is a mix of mjlouspeaker transmission lines and this midrange m4 trial. And it is actually 2 systems I am working on, one for outdoor use (big) and my home reference with Titanium mj as centerpiece (until the m4 makes it very scared indeed).

The whole point of my posts is to get the M4 going as a real driver for critical use in a horn, and I absolutely agree that this M4 is obnoxious in its store bought form.

So my goal is to get it (m4) to be replacement of some fane or other now not available, we need something that works and we can get.

My idea is definitely to load this M4 in horn format. This driver is not transmission line candidate at all.

Get rid of front chamber, especially the phase plug, that is held by screws only, that is not centerable, that sounds like hell, that kills all of the sound really, listen to it without all of this front end stuff, I like it a lot, and will post my work when I can, but this to me is very exciting Romy, that the M4 can and will be used for very good purposes.

And this all takes time, that I have when I have it, you know.

They (Community say 200-2000 hz.) Time will tell. I only value the sound and alway cross by ear. It is the ear that must be pleased, mine anyway.

best regards, j. 

In nature, the SOUND always propagates "outwardly expanding", so to the ear, this is a natural thing.

Any containment is like a muffler on a car, constraining, restricting, resonating, chocking, forbidding, etc....

These are good tools to know about sound for many purposes mentioned above, but for "natural sound reproduction purposes" sound must be free to "expand" as in nature. Hence why we do horns when we get older?

My opinions, not liable legally in any way, 

thanks, j. 

Mjloudspeaker,

I was under impression that M4 has problems because it if too small cone for the double suspension. Anyhow, it would be interesting to see the pictures and your expended thoughts about the M4 sound, not just expressing you assurances that the M4 “sounds good”.  I also wonder how you will be using the M4 in context of a horn and in context of a complete installation.

Also,  Mjloudspeaker, and I am not kidding,  try to more organized and compile your thoughts in a minimum amount of posts. It is not a bulletin board and there is no need to flood the site with single-phrase, sine-thought posts. Many people, including myself, subscribe the threads email notification and I do not need to get 5 emails about basically nothing.  Let to be more self-disciplined.

As can be seen in above photos, the front chamber is in reality "chamber of horrors" with highly polished surface interior, and look at the phase plug, after disassembly, I put it back together, and how can you align it? All that holds it together is extra long screws.

Does not matter, it needs to be dismissed for my (or any other serious sound) application. Sad as it is beautifully made, so how to use it and not feel bad?

I have included some better uses for this m4 stuff if you do not like it further, and I have tried to stay on topic of thread of "fane m8 studio replacement" theme, not Macondo topology/mjloudspeaker contest.

Here are great use of m4 if you still don't like the sound of it, after baring the motor cone of the above "public address accessories".

m4 salad bowl strainer

art devo m4 hat

m4 boat anchor

It is easy to fabricate a plate cover for the m4, I don't have it here, but a simple mdf donut with attachment to horn is needed, using the same bolts that hold the front chamber on there, so anyone can do that part, I won't go to workshop to show you this simple donut.

This concludes my contribution to the thread of finding a replacement for fane. At the very least, give the m4 a try, as my opinion of "sound" does not matter, and my application of "topology" is my own, also does not matter, and is still a work in progress, nothing is really done, (except to remove offending pieces off of the m4 and the titanium is done) except to discover the m4, so I am mostly done here with posting. I will update with horn when I get it done, whenever that be. Sorry if I don't have more fascinating stuff for site, but hey, life.

Thanks for having me Romy, best regards, j. 

Mjloudspeaker,

That is all fine. I get that you like them, even though said nothing about the “new” M4 sound. There is another “even though”. You do not log it into horn and like just the sound of open driver. It is absolutely not indicative. Perhaps you can predict how the sound of open air driver gets converted into sound of horn loads driver.  Good for you because I never was able to do it.

Next thing is the application. I do have doubts about your findings. You keep stressing how much you like the driver but you are falling to answer 3 inquiries about the ways how you use the M4.   If you have 100-150Hz hour and use something like Fane 8M then you have 86Hz primary resonance from Fane, drive it up to the mouth rate and have a good preliminary match. M4 in default setting has primary resonance I presume around 100Hz higher then Fane so how you will be driving with it 100Hz horn.

http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/M4_SPEC.pdf

The removing the phase plug and exit channel is fine but it itself is not a lot. You need to construct the new mounting plate, find a way to convert the new driver exit into the throat of your horn, load the diver into horn, redo the back chamber in order to accommodate the new load.

http://www.rentcom.com/wpapers/commun/cover.html

http://www.hamran.org/audio/Community-M4.html

Only then I thing you can make assumption about the M4 sound. It is very possible that after all those modifications you will not be able to use M4 in a horn lower then I would say 180Hz.  Sine you did say that you did not like horns and presumably did not have a lot of exposure to them in past I would presume that you findings about the M4 driver are premature.

My idea is a upright horn like your "midbass hanging thing", at 200 hz for the smaller size of it, and this will be my work for 2009/10. What I would like is exponential curve, not tractrix horn, something like this one perhaps?

 
this is copyright of someone, if anyone knows who, please give credit to owner, thanks.

The biggest problem is time alignment, my room is not so large actually, and this project will have my hands full for sure. What I like is like you said very small footprint.

See ya, Romy.

P.S. thanks for the help always appreciated, I will post in the future. done for now.

nonono, romy, there is no 500 to 800 pounds horn in my life, mjloudspeaker is and always has been different philosophy of what everyone does really, always simplified and yes lightweight construction, (we did the traditional way, it is full of many problems, and my back hurts now always, and you can call me smart, cheap, frugal, whatever you want) and my lightweight view will expand on this horn, a "different take of horn" if you will, I plan to surprise even me. I think it will be a great creation, but i am mjloudspeaker, ful of myself as usual, and my ideas are bubbling with m4 horn ideas. Is this Christmas?, i don't think so. But I like this job. It is my passion. This and motorcycles/bikes. Whatever.

I know what you say, but being a new guy to this type of construction project, I think 200hz is maneageable size for my room, and the pic above is just kind of what I like, also like very much your midbass thing, and it is in the thick of things, for the sound. I am very happy that 200 is smaller, I just don't know much about horns, so how much smaller? I must find out.

The transmission lines wil do the bottom, and I am excited to say the least, think you may be surprise and like the result, I may like this new sound, I have horn sound in my studio, Romy, I know and like horn, they are just animals to tame, but I like them,

My titanium model loudspeaker weighs only 85 pounds approx. This thing is taller than me, and still is too heavy for me (my taste). Oh well, when you build stuff, weight adds up.

Enough, it is a great day, I need to go out, and again, I say i will post the work later, ok?

I will call them BlackStealth Horn Drama, after my my new ex-wife. I do not care what anyone thinks, this is for my pleasure, please sue me if you disagree, my lawyer (self represented me is waiting) and these devices must meet the highest standards ever, to please me, mjloudspeaker guy. Just the way it is, there.

I really hope you don't reply to this, as I am on holidays, and need some time off. 

Take care, j. 

mjloudspeaker wrote:

My idea is a upright horn like your "midbass hanging thing", at 200 hz for the smaller size of it, and this will be my work for 2009/10. What I would like is exponential curve, not tractrix horn, something like this one perhaps?   this is copyright of someone, if anyone knows who, please give credit to owner, thanks. The biggest problem is time alignment, my room is not so large actually, and this project will have my hands full for sure. What I like is like you said very small footprint. See ya, Romy. P.S. thanks for the help always appreciated, I will post in the future. done for now.

Very important to give the credit where it is due, and it is due these fine people, image above is copyright specimenproducts.com, they make very nice work and have videos to watch on the youtube channel, give them a click, very worthwhile, now my end is wrapped up, j.

http://www.specimenproducts.com/amps/XLHorn.html

"I may be wrong to continue here with M4 ideas, Romy, feel free to move this where you want, thanks".

In my very audio eccentric strange mind, there is two concepts for M4 that pop to the surface, and that merit some explorations. See if you can help me out somehow, to make this concept to an actuality of practical design.

CONCEPT 1 for M4 Model Drama™- The use of very complex surfaces to "confuse, diffuse, but not refuse the sound". It is the Stealth.Or simply, Complexity Conception of Sonic Surfaces©™mjloudspeaker

This idea I find intriguing and I hope that some young designers get involved and plunge into audio with some deep designs, and I must always go to the past to understand the future, it is the best thing for me to do. What Stealth means is simple, you see something, but hear nothing, as the system disappears, like the airplane, invisible. This is my hope, to look at this very strange device, but when I make it play, you say, what? Close your eyes, the massive is gone.

tHE PAST IS fUTURI STIC?

Here is a very futuristic looking stylized recent acquisition, the IWATA BUTTERFLY X, the gentleman said it to me, (please let us forget other iwata tradegy on site) with room in back chamber for a 12 inch driver horn good for 300 hz possibly, more likely maybe 400 or 500, does not matter, ears will tell me, these acquired by buzz lightyear aka as yours truly, outdoor use I will. If this looks stealthy, it could be an engine module of the stealth bomber aircraft, I can see the flame come out at supersonic volume of the horn sound! This would be fast! This thing is what? 30 maybe 40 years old, and way forward in design, but it will break the road crews back in 5 seconds flat, it is so heavy and the size of toyota prius, but larger, so no wonder it is gone, left to rot in the field, where I rescued 4 of my little iwata butterflys, for my very grandiose bush wacker sonic needs.

This has nothing, yet everything to do with M4 development, (but I may load them in there for a test pilot run just for fun), makes me ponder still, (that how much previous knowledge is gone, buried with the learned, there has to be a wonderful afterlife where I can talk with them and learn), and has a very unique construction feature for the readership: Sandwich is baltic fir, thick fiberglass lenses, with nice damping injected expanding foam in the middle! This stuff is available anywhere now! This is very "leading edge technology" in some very basic ways, considering the age of this Butterfly X.

Very promising this Complexity Conception of Sonic Surfaces ©™mjloudspeaker, the old iwata has it outside in the form of it, not inside where I want it to be to affect the "Sound", but the biggest impairment wall that I see in the mjloudspeaker copyright/trademark concept listed above, is I cannot visualize this horn yet, so most definitely cannot build it yet. These people do it better than I can explain to you. Would be similar, but different, you know?