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  »  New  Where are our good phonostages?..  Omnigon Tubes...  Analog Playback Forum     61  665194  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Expressive Technologies SU-1..  “too bright” or “resolution” or “details” with SUT prim...  Analog Playback Forum     33  376043  12-30-2004
  »  New  EAR 834P Modification Guide..  The cap will not change volume in the pass band...  Analog Playback Forum     45  638991  02-09-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  119446  04-04-2006
  »  New  Phono stages with SU-1..  SU-1...  Analog Playback Forum     4  66063  11-23-2007
  »  New  Chasing utopian better phono interconnect...  Did I miss something?...  Analog Playback Forum     6  110849  06-05-2008
  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  810096  09-05-2008
  »  New  EAR 834P mods..  The cap will not change volume in the pass band...  Analog Playback Forum     45  638991  11-04-2008
  »  New  AMR PH-77: just another phonostage or more?..  Oh, yeah... the sound of the Thing Itself......  Analog Playback Forum     11  132313  07-05-2009
  »  New  An interesting Russian pnonocorrector...  Uber-tweeky phono topologies deconstructed...  Analog Playback Forum     9  99293  03-01-2010
  »  New  Expressive Technologies SU-1 and cartridge output and i..  MV and Ohms...  Analog Playback Forum     2  33602  07-07-2011
  »  New  How to run MM-type cartridge into MC phonostage?..  Quite interesting....  Analog Playback Forum     6  67329  11-13-2011
  »  New  The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT...  The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT....  Analog Playback Forum     0  23379  12-21-2011
09-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 226
Post ID: 18576
Reply to: 18575
Is it because secrecy gains females loud applause?
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is absolutely no judgement on my side if you read carefully. Omnigone can be a stellar performer, as well as TKD custom switches which you can have only if you suck the dick of the owner, and it affects me as much as an alien fart on andromeda. I'd actually be happier knowing it does perform on the stratospheric level, which means this is possible.
Custom built parts--no problem with that either, I've been ordering custom parts for ages, comming from the street to the company of my choice and asking "can you do this at this level?". What pissess me off is the aura of "secrecy", "knowing the right people", "entering the right circles" etc etc...where at the end there is NO objective information on the quality of your custom order for which you've been made to pay your two year income apart from pissings of your group-buy fellows. At the moment I'm waiting for that Shallco switch to arrive and I'll experiment with it, so the switch subject is at the moment closed for me.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 227
Post ID: 18577
Reply to: 18573
It's A Big'un, All Right
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would also like to know more about this behemoth than the "What is Best?" proclamation tells.

Meanwhile, I keep thinking that another "all-out" approach might be much smaller, with discrete circuits and a large-enough battery (or batteries).  Why not?

Paul S
09-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 228
Post ID: 18579
Reply to: 16908
EAR polite recess
fiogf49gjkf0d
As for the EAR834 Air itself, while calibrating I've noticed I always get a a delicate MF recess, no matter what I do:

calibration_blue.jpg

(neverming the HF roll-off--it's my cheap card, I'll scan it with SG505-HP400FL when I mount them)

Can it be that this slight recess is in part responsible for the "politeness'' of the design?
Can it also be that a more aggressive cart in this context means (in some part) a cart with a slight rise in this region
to compensate? I'll try to find out in about a month trying to tame a Decca Jubilee...
 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 229
Post ID: 18690
Reply to: 18579
Power sequencing?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have one problem, probably trivial: when I shut the power off, the HV dies out much longer than the filaments,
so the cathodes are poisoned at the switch off (on the startup I have a delay relay on HV).
And this despite all that heavy bleeding on HV. How do you deal with such things?


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 230
Post ID: 18691
Reply to: 18690
Some Sort of Off-Only HV Shunt?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, cathode poisoning becomes an issue...  I did not refer back to the schematic, but could you rig a more direct ground path/shunt via relay at switch-off to dump the tubes' HV faster (fast enough) without blowing your caps (or arcing)?

Paul S
10-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 231
Post ID: 18692
Reply to: 18690
3 Position switch
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have built a fair amount of tube gear and use a 2 pole 3 position switch to solve this. Up is off, middle is filament only and down adds HV. A red and green LED show that power is to the heaters and HT.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 232
Post ID: 18693
Reply to: 18692
How true...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...I tried to operate with one switch only but unless I employ what Paul suggests, 3 pos switch (I prefer rotary)
is the easiest solution...thanks guys!


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 233
Post ID: 18694
Reply to: 18693
DIY Failsafe
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of course, the object is to be sure you never have a situation where HV is on while heaters are off, whether switching "on" or "off".  And the usual DIY way to do this with totally separate PSs is...separate switching.  If this or a similar approach is used, I certainly recommend the color-coded pilot lights, all right!  Hell, under these conditions, with my ADHD, I'd need some sort of alarm as a backup! Might be a good idea to have the pilot lights even on a fancier, relay circuit, just to be sure everything is functioning as planned, every time.

Another uber-switch approach (that I have not built...) might be staged MOVs in and out, apropos.  This would probably still require shunt relay or relays; a LV-triggered relay (from the heaters) for the HV for "on", and a "reverse" HV relay (from the HV shunt...) for the heaters (for "off")... 

Best regards,
Paul S
10-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rogier
Posts 13
Joined on 11-16-2006
Post #: 234
Post ID: 18698
Reply to: 18693
Switch..
fiogf49gjkf0d
..or 2 DPDT switches, one of each sections parallel for the heater, second of each in series for the plates..

kind regards,  rogier
11-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 235
Post ID: 18771
Reply to: 7504
Calibration problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
Experimenting with Decca carts, I've temporaly disconected the SUT's and decided to check the RIAA calibration
and I think I have some (circuit?) problem.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

In the end of everything I was able to get very nice response. The response is nice and flat with 0dB at 18.1Hz and 0dB at 15.600Hz. It has plus 0.2dB from 1500 to 3500 which I feel is not a big deal. (Juts for my future reference: the values of the feedback capacitors have without de-soldering capS from the circuit are: 110pF= 136.2pF and 330pF=372pF)

This level of calibration is something I can dream of, as well as of this one (Fig. 1):

http://www.stereophile.com/content/ear-834p-phono-preamplifier-measurements

I have a massive +2.2dB  peak around 35-50Hz. No matter what I do it's there, getting broader or narrower and slightly moving.

From 1kHz up I can flatten the things out very nicely. I scan the phono using (HF corrected) Hagtech iRIAA.

Since Jim mentions it wants to see 50R source, I've been driving it with 50R out of Tek SG505 generator

or with my sound card with unknown output R....all gives the same. I somehow start to suspect that I have

some circuit problem. I tried to measure aircaps in the circuit but my simple C-meter gets crazy and prefer not to desolder them

unless necessary. The big cap responsible for LF looks actually identical to Romy's and should give up to 390pF, so plenty of room.

Anyone have any idea what the heck may be wrong? Where does a ~50Hz low Q peak may come from?

Any help appreciated. Thanks,

N-set

PS There is one circuit change wrt the original: I use 1uF instead of 2uF output coupling cap.







Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-27-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 236
Post ID: 18781
Reply to: 18771
Resolved
fiogf49gjkf0d
Fucking soundcard...I knew I should rather buy myself a good bottle of wine if I cannot afford a real equipment, but I got seduced by
the "simplicity" of mesurements and price...well, I got what I paid for: ~16k input impedance of my Fuck-blaster X-fuck soundcard
was creating an artificial corner together with the 834's output coupling cap. This, put into the
feedback loop, resulted in the unremovable peak at 35Hz. I first found that by simulating the circuit, so, yes
computers are usefull sometimes. It was then a pleasure to use my Tek SG505 + HP400FL to calibrate
the phono. I got a nice quite flat curve within +/-0.25dB up to ~15kHz.
Then I have -0.8dB @20kHz and -3dB@45kHz, which corresponds to the action of the 50kHz time-constant implemented
in the Hagtech's iRIAA. Below is the simed FR of 834, driven by the 600R iRIAA source with the 50kHz corner:

834_sim_FR_50Khz.jpg

Cheers,
n-set

 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 237
Post ID: 18783
Reply to: 18781
Looks good
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, this is what I expected. That slightly fatty lower range is what I have and I do tend to like this type of response.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 238
Post ID: 18785
Reply to: 18783
Fat LF
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, this is what I expected. That slightly fatty lower range is what I have and I do tend to like this type of response.


Thanks Romy.
Yes, it seems intrinsic in the design. 
The above curve is simulation, but I get it almost perfectly in the real life too
(with SUTs disconnected and using REAL instruments, not computer crap).
Looking forward to see how 834 will interact with Decca Jubilee in 3012R...

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 239
Post ID: 18787
Reply to: 18785
Loading Up
fiogf49gjkf0d
N-set, you've certainly earned the right to enjoy your gear!  Again, which SUT will you use? No practical way to measure ESR, etc. on this, I suppose...

When you first posted on the "problem" curve, I was thinking (to myself...) "RCL"/reactive load.  Of course, SUT is an added "variable", but I know of no better way to get the gain; maybe pony up for Boulder 2008.  The "fat" curve is generally in the end more like "live", I think.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-28-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 240
Post ID: 18788
Reply to: 18787
SUT's
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
N-set, you've certainly earned the right to enjoy your gear!  Again, which SUT will you use? No practical way to measure ESR, etc. on this, I suppose...


Paul, the SUT's are Pieter's Tribute MkII.
I could measure this or that on the SUT's but I trust Pieter and the only thing I've done was a
freq. sweep up to 100kHz (again with a proper equipment).
It seems to show no irregularities (I have some little doubts at ultra low levels<1mV, but this may be RFI),
so I plan to try unloading the secondaries (they are moderately loaded at 82.5k right now)
and try loading the cart through the primaries...but that later.

Right now the SUT's are disconnected
as I'm experimenting with Decca carts, so I'll try to post my observations on the sound afterwards.
The only thing I can say at the moment is
that changing the ratio from 1:20 to 1:10 on Tribute's brought, in my modest circumstances,
the sound of the front-end to a different level, uncovering a whole layer of a vital sonic information.

Cheers,
N-set




Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AlexBerger
Israel, Beer Sheva
Posts 20
Joined on 04-19-2010
Post #: 241
Post ID: 19014
Reply to: 18788
Shunt regulation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Does anybody try to change shunt regulators OA2 to 15K Ohm resistor?
I heard from number of people that OA2 is too noisy for phonostage.
For example, in this article wrote about this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tweak_ai_p2_phono_mod_01.shtml
02-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 242
Post ID: 19015
Reply to: 19014
Application dependent
fiogf49gjkf0d
 AlexBerger wrote:

I heard from number of people that OA2 is too noisy for phonostage.
For example, in this article wrote about this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tweak_ai_p2_phono_mod_01.shtml


Those type of statements make no sense detached from the context. Look at the PS of your 834RtC. What do you see after the shunt?
A lot of info on gas tubes and their noise can be found in Mark Kelly's posts/writing, also Lyn Olson investigated them.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 243
Post ID: 19113
Reply to: 15615
Silvercore SUT's ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have an anal fantasy of a full silver path from the cart to the grid of the input stage.
This brings me to finding an ambitious silver wound SUT. There is Slagle who can make it,
but I'm inclined towards amorphous/nanocrystaline core, so there is Lundahl LL1941Ag, I'm also
persuading Tribute Pieter to wind me a pair, but I've found this German company:

http://t.silvercore.de/index.php?phono

Does anyone have any experience with their silver SUT's?
I've been offered two "nacked" units: mc25 for 440Eu/pair and mc25pro for a whooping 2500Eu/pair.
When asked where does such a huge price difference come from, the guy did not reply.

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 244
Post ID: 19114
Reply to: 19113
It migh be an interesting company.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I never hear them and never will as I have no quest for any better SPU but they might do something worth attention. No one knows until you try. They certainly have nothing at their website that set expectation high but it does not mean anything. I generally against pure silver-winded transformers but I have hear one that was pure silver and it was well sounding, at least in context of the playback where I heard it. BTW, the shielding that the German guys use looks to me a bit inadequate

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 245
Post ID: 19118
Reply to: 19114
Amo/silver
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I generally against pure silver-winded transformers ...


Romy would you care to elaborate on that a bit? In particular have you hear amorphous/silver combination?

I've never heard a silver SUT myself, or actually any other serious SUT than my own Tribute,
hence my curiosity. Some scattered opinions here and there
(for example of Chris V: http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2012/09/guest-post-shines-pays-clippy-visit.html )
suggest  amorphous core + silver windings may have a potential to blend the oposites into a harmony,
which for me personaly is an intellectually atractive method to proceed.
But you never know unless you try...

On Silvercore I've found little feedback, and all of it on the typical completely neanderthalic level, hence my question.

Cheers,
N-set


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 246
Post ID: 19124
Reply to: 19118
From a Satisfied User of a Ready-made Item
fiogf49gjkf0d
My Ortofon T3000 SUT is wound with "20-9s" silver (or some such shit) over some sort of super-duper core, all wrapped in Mu metal.  Since it is designed from scratch to partner with the Ortofon MC3000 II cartridge I use, I would really hope it "works well" in that application; and it does.  I have yet to re-build my multi-metal Phono-version IC (Cu and Ag wire, and "trailing" shields), but I can say there is nothing about silver for this application that I do not like.  I can say that I have preferred - overall - the multi-metal ICs to pure silver.  I can't say how the "12-9s" Cu coil windings of the cartridge coils affect the resultant "mix" I get.

I think with the SUT the "dynamic" loading the cartridge "sees" may swamp the choice of wire metal.  Once the loading is dialed in, silver might be nice.  Whether it's "worth the money", I could not say.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 247
Post ID: 19127
Reply to: 19124
Silver considerations
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, thank you for your input!

 Paul S wrote:


I think with the SUT the "dynamic" loading the cartridge "sees" may swamp the choice of wire metal.  Once the loading is dialed in, silver might be nice. 


Yes Paul, absolutely agree--the electrical parameters must be dialed in first. What I'd see ideally is a SUT custom designed
for the cart--FR7f. The idea of silve comes loosely from the fact that the Bavarian seller  was comparing my cart with his
own special FR7 with silver coils and reported a slightly more, as he has put it "soul", to the Sound. This is of course a very
shitty "motivation", as this was a 2nd hand opinion of someone whose system I do not know and moreover
a cart's coil and a SUT (ass-u-ming all other factors equal) are very different coils, but...who knows...

Slagle can make a custom silver SUT but he uses mumetal. From the reports in the net (no 1st hand exp. on my side),
mumetal is said to be more "relaxed", amo more "clear, fast" to put it simplistically. I'm more on the "clear" side...at least in my
imagination. I also remember talking with a magnetic metallurgist, who claimed cobalt amo and nanocrystalines are the
most linear magnetics known and he laughed at mumetal...well, weather this guarantees anything is of course disputable,
but an intellectual picture has formed in  my mind: a clean, fast, "harder reading" core + supposedly "detaily relaxed" silver,
then luxuriously soft-but-fast EAR834RtC...I'd like to check it.

The Silvercore guy replied that his 1000Eu/piece more expensive SUT uses bigger core and more silver...I know the prices of
amo/nanocores, I still have an insanely huge Tribute prototypes, I also know how much Pieter pays for his large cores
and I can't justify +1000Eu/trannie at the moment. Let's hope I'm able to convince Pieter to wind in silver....

Another option is a silver Lundahl LL1941Ag. 

Cheers,
N-set


 



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 248
Post ID: 19129
Reply to: 19127
Again With the Amo
fiogf49gjkf0d
The good thing about Amo cores is, they are not just "clear" and/or "fast", but they also create/allow a lot of Music information that is very well integrated, and it is consistent, whatever is happening, incuding remarkably consistent dynamics, chromae, texture, etc., etc.  The silver wire "seems clear" in a way that is very seductive, and it is very "smooth".  The "seductive clarity", however, does not necessarily mean it is actually more clear in terms of any sort of Musical articulation I could name.  Again, I do like it...


Best regards,
Paul S
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 249
Post ID: 19131
Reply to: 19129
Silver path
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, thanks again for a nice input--sounds for me indeed seductive (well, I'm anyway +/- "self-convinced" to give a silver/amo a try).
Do you use silver wire also in the tonearm? What I have in mind is a 2nd, all silver path for the 834, which would go like that:

FR7f->Audio Note UK silver tonearm wire -> some silver phono cable ->amo/silver SUT -> Shallco switch (with silver-on-copper contacts), silver
wiring in my 834 to the input tube's grid.

RCA plugs/sockets are Au-on-Cu Vampire. Interconect: either a i) DIY with a coninous run of the AN wire from my SME3012 cart socket
to RCA plugs at the 834's end (omitting 3012's RCA sockets at the base) or
ii) something like Audioquest leopard with battery biased dielectric, again based on the net rumors it gets a solid good feedback.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
03-21-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 250
Post ID: 19132
Reply to: 19118
The “secret” will be never revealed...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 N-set wrote:
Romy would you care to elaborate on that a bit? In particular have you hear amorphous/silver combination?
  
Nope I never had it and even f I did it would be difficult to generalize anything. I had only once a fully silver OPT, it was the top of the line Japanese AN. With the AN cartridge it did very well. I have my Expressive Technology SU2 transformer with me and I was trying to use it instead of that silver AN and I I mush preferred the AN. Against it was in context of ultra low impedance AN cartridge (<.5R), with AN phonostage and with  very poor from my point of view single driver speakers. Whatever it was the analog front end was not the weakest element in there and the SUT did very well. I do not wind transformers and I have no idea what makes SUT good. The guy who did my Expressive Technology SU2 transformer after he heard my pontifications the silver is bad told me that there is some silver in my transformer. He did not go into details and I think as now the “secret” will be never revealed.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Where are our good phonostages?..  Omnigon Tubes...  Analog Playback Forum     61  665194  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Expressive Technologies SU-1..  “too bright” or “resolution” or “details” with SUT prim...  Analog Playback Forum     33  376043  12-30-2004
  »  New  EAR 834P Modification Guide..  The cap will not change volume in the pass band...  Analog Playback Forum     45  638991  02-09-2006
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  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  810096  09-05-2008
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  »  New  An interesting Russian pnonocorrector...  Uber-tweeky phono topologies deconstructed...  Analog Playback Forum     9  99293  03-01-2010
  »  New  Expressive Technologies SU-1 and cartridge output and i..  MV and Ohms...  Analog Playback Forum     2  33602  07-07-2011
  »  New  How to run MM-type cartridge into MC phonostage?..  Quite interesting....  Analog Playback Forum     6  67329  11-13-2011
  »  New  The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT...  The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT....  Analog Playback Forum     0  23379  12-21-2011
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