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03-05-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	3905
Reply to:	3861

“These Brazilian masterpieces”….

As usually I tend to see a generalization and patters. The very same is the case of that Brazilian installation with those Japanese hors. However, I would like to take it even further then just the very questionable design decisions in that upperbass horn. What I would like to point out that the educational values of the “questionable design decisions” in this given case were completely devaluated by the owner of the system and the owner’s reference points. Let me to explain, however, before the explanations I need to make another remark in order do not be attacked by the never-sleeping fools who case about the ethnics-of-others more then about own ethnic.

It always puzzled me how fools recognize a constrictive criticism about somebody playback or somebody reference points as a personal attack on somebody. I have written about is many times and always suggested that a person’s hyper-sensitivity to audio critique as a clear indicator of audio-Moronity. I do not want to go over it here, so read the thread:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2546

Returning back to the explanations.

Well, I do not think thatBrazilian guy relay knows what is doing on with his horn and I completely discard his comments bout the sound of his installation.. From my point of view the direction he goes is absolutely faulty (I intentionally did no name him he started some kind of audio company). What this guy does, and the direction from which he approaches speakers is absolutely opposite (from my point of view) to the one that brings success in Sound. The Brazilian guy feel that sound should be shaped by after-fact conditioning and I religiously against this approach.

So, the mistakes that were made in this installation are purely the responsibly of its Japanese designer but why the owner of this system can not realize that his installation underperforms (and I’m saying without listening the system)? Because the audio methods that Brazilian guy uses as his “tools” and his coordinate systems are very restricted in context of Respect to Sound. His coordinate system only deals with the Algorithmically Reflections of Sound instead the Sound itself.

Yes, 20 years ago the Yamaha DX7 was perfectly capable to imitate the sound of whole symphonic orchestra, so what? The quality of that imitation was very good only in context of digital syntezators progress but for any peoples who are familiar with the nature of real Sound it was not serious. So, how a person who does not recognize the notion of driver-centricity in acoustic systems can be a tool for people to lean how his J-horn might sound? How valuable would be a position of person who essentially uses sound of drivers and horns with no more respect then a micro-voltage generated inside of that Yamaha DX7 keyboard?

Sure it is very said that a person who spent a lot of money and efforts for this J-horns can’t contribute to the mass of composite knowledge about hors generally. But what make him different from most of others audio-yahoos? Sure, people would look at the pictures of the 8-bit driven horns with out of phase transducers above and feel that that was how horns should be. Nothing could be further from truth and the blindness (or with of blindness) of the peoples similar to the Brazilian guy make the global knowledge about horns so primitive.

As Michael Corleone said: “It's not personal. . . It's strictly business"…

Rgs,
Romy the caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-06-2007

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Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	27
Post ID:	3907
Reply to:	3905

Constructive?

Regarding constructive criticism, is there any chance of you explaining why you feel the installation is mortally compromised Romy? In order to be constructive, an explanation is required otherwise it simply qualifies as childish insults in my book. Looking at a picture of the Macondo, it is possible to see huge areas where the design is most likely horribly compromised but I don't doubt that subjectively they sound delightful. What is the difference here?

03-06-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	3908
Reply to:	3907

Here we go aganin…

Merlin wrote:
Regarding constructive criticism, is there any chance of you explaining why you feel the installation is mortally compromised Romy? In order to be constructive, an explanation is required otherwise it simply qualifies as childish insults in my book.

Merlin, I was under a strong impression that the “mortal compromise” 9as you call it) in this J-horn were already mentioned with this thread. Do you want me and others to write it for you again juts because you refuse to spend more efforts then juts scan tittles and looking at the pictures? Sorry, it is not the way how it works…

Merlin wrote:
Looking at a picture of the Macondo, it is possible to see huge areas where the design is most likely horribly compromised but I don't doubt that subjectively they sound delightful. What is the difference here?

… and why do you feel that Macondo is off the limit for any criticism (in a separate thread)? What, however, I refuse is when people use phrases “see huge areas” and “design is most likely horribly compromised” in the same sentence. If one “see” it then there is no “most likely”. So, your question “What is the difference?” it is something that you need to answer for yourself.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-06-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	29
Post ID:	3911
Reply to:	3901

The sound of bells

Again, I am not insisting that the material of that horn will behave like a bell so much as I am suggesting that bell-like sounds will eminate from this horn. Is the difference clear? Some of those Altec horns were textbook examples of both types of bell-like resonance, where the body of the horn itself resonated and certain bell-like artifacts were created/amplified by/in the horns' mouths. The interesting thing about the horn doping was that it addressed/affected both issues simultaneously, albeit it did precious little for the true bell-type ringing of the horn body (as one might expect).

I suppose that your casting experience ties in with molding experience, which should certainly give you a leg up on how various materials do for horns. I always thought, being a carpenter by trade, that some of the lighter, "buttery" woods, like bass wood or sugar pine, would make nice horns, striking a nice compromise between energy losses and the self-generated noises I have been talking about. Of course the shape of the horn is primary, but I cannot and would not discount the effect of the material itself, by any means. And I would guess that reinforced plaster would work out well enough provided mounting studs and/or coils were imbedded before/while casting.

I am still not finished with my OB project, in fact I have just made some more changes I hope will get even more out of this very interesting design. I can't tell for sure if I am up against the ML2's limitations yet but based on the little experience I have with horns I expect that I would wind up doing multi-way horns and multi-channel amps at the same time, were I to go back in that direction. Who knows where all the power goes with those supposedly 102 dB systems?!? Actually, I suppose we have a pretty good idea...

And that is another thing about "the horn in question": I just can't see/hear using DSP to correct such wide variation between drivers at various frequencies and volumes. This seems to fly in the face of the dictum that each horn has only a very limited range that it can do without the "horn-factor" itself taking over. I was and am not sure if it is possible to get truly "wide range" from any horn without gross coloration. And I would very much like to have a brief listen to that bronze horn to finally confirm or dispell the notion that it is just another "ringer".

Best regards,
Paul S

03-06-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	30
Post ID:	3912
Reply to:	3911

It is not ONLY the sound of the “walls”.

Paul S wrote:
Some of those Altec horns were textbook examples of both types of bell-like resonance, where the body of the horn itself resonated and certain bell-like artifacts were created/amplified by/in the horns' mouths.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……..m…mmmm…. I have problems with it.

Sure those Altec “tuna cans” horns, and not “some of them” but all of them, had a LOT of problems and ringing was one of them. But what you begin to use the phrases “bell-like resonance” I wonder if we relays honest/correct in association the cause and results? Yes, the Altec “tuna cans” horns sounded like bells but increasing the crossover frequency for ½-3/4 octave practically get rid of that “bell-like resonance”. Well, from one perspective we slightly trance LF in the horn that reduces the forces that crater the resonance. But from another perspective if we model the identical behavior in a good wooden horn then we might recognize the near similar “bell-like resonance”. So, where the bell-like quality of sound coming from: from the walls of the horn or from the typical mistake of many horns newbie – the overloading a horn with bass?

I do not know the answer but I would propose in do not forget that too much bass in the horn bell crate effect that sonically sound very similar to “bell-like resonance”. Sure, that Japa-Brazilian horn with his 24dB/ocave 500Hz crossover should not have problems in 330Hz horn. However, let do not forget that it is not a real “horn”. This shape itself is a resonating chamber.

It takes a very simple test to see how it works – give this horn to a woman (or a tenor-men) and ask her to count loud from 1 to 20, putting the horn to her lips while she will be in the middle of counting. With a proper horn only volume should be changed but no the timber. The Altec “tuna cans” horns behave honorably even with voices of coloratura mezzo, where will be not dive to the frequency that would arose the walls. You might make asking that woman with horn to use different texts with “harder” consonants if you wish and to dump the “tuna cans horn” with her hands…. You will see eventually that it was not the sound of the “walls” (or mostly no the sound of the “walls”)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-06-2007

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Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	31
Post ID:	3916
Reply to:	3908

In jest I fear

Romy the Cat wrote:
<P>Merlin, I was under a strong impression that the “mortal compromise” 9as you call it) in this J-horn were already mentioned with this thread. </P>
The caT

Not so I'm afraid Romy. There has been absolutely no discussion of the subjective affects of any design criteria - merely posturing based on objective knowledge which as we all know, has minimal bearing on subjective results.

As we cannot discuss the subjective results as none of us have heard the speaker in question, it seems a trifle rude to use words such as "ridiculous" and "moronic" when discussing it. Unless of course we accept that it is equally ridiculous and moronic to discuss them in the first place.

03-06-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	32
Post ID:	3918
Reply to:	3916

The eyes wide shut?

wrote:

...The most obvious problem is with the Bass drivers, which are left to radiate both to the front (via the horns) as well as to the rear... which in this case really means to the front!... The rear of the drivers are aimed upward at a 45° angle where the sound would bounce off the ceiling, then continue at 45° right down to the listening point, arriving I would guess somewhat late to the party. This is not something that can be fixed with a DSP (the output from the rear of the cone being physically linked to what comes off the front of the cone).

….. Too keep for this horn (it is aluminum-made) without back chamber is so funny that … it become even not funny. The only way to make 60Hz horn so short is open up the throat to full throttle, most likely the full 15” as the size of that 515G driver. If this guy has such a large throat then this horn has very little gain. Let presume that it does +3dB at its lover at its lover knee. Then, (with the back chamber wide opened and positioned where it is) the guy has upperbass MF arrays of two sources, with 3dB between them, reserved polarity and with time discrepancy that could not be addressed at digital domain.

Were the quotes above no enough for anyone who is familiar with the subject? It is funny but you sound very similar to the Tannoys guy who flashed at this site with his juvenile aptitude. Well, where I do agree with you Merlin, is that “we cannot discuss the … results” as I do not see any effort on your part to do so. A person who wants looks for opportunity, the person who does not want looks for reasons; I am not quite sure what you are looking. Please do not reply if you post will not be related to the Brazilin horn. It was the last time I replied to you when you said nothing about the subject of the thread.

Rgs,
Romy

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-06-2007

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Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	33
Post ID:	3919
Reply to:	3918

Yes sadly inadequate

Romy the Cat wrote:

Were the quotes above no enough for anyone who is familiar with the subject?
Rgs,
Romy

Absolutely inadequate for desiphering the subjective sound quality yes - all we can deduce is that the system has a maximum sensitivity of 98db/w at best, and quite possibly less. As do many fine loudspeaker systems.

All loudspeaker systems are compromises. Placing the 515G in that manner at least reduces the effect of it's backwave causing a deep phase cancellation from the rear wall reflection. As I say - compromises - none neccessarily more moronic than the next.

I'd like to see the system designer provide some explanation as to his design choices - that would give this thread a sense of direction it sadly lacks at the moment. The only thing I would say is that is it not likely that the positioning of the 515 will have a long term effect on the suspension and result in sag?

03-06-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	34
Post ID:	3920
Reply to:	3919

An objective indication of what is going on there

Merlin wrote:

Absolutely inadequate for desiphering the subjective sound quality yes - all we can deduce is that the system has a maximum sensitivity of 98db/w at best, and quite possibly less. As do many fine loudspeaker systems.

All loudspeaker systems are compromises. Placing the 515G in that manner at least reduces the effect of it's backwave causing a deep phase cancellation from the rear wall reflection. As I say - compromises - none neccessarily more moronic than the next.

I'd like to see the system designer provide some explanation as to his design choices - that would give this thread a sense of direction it sadly lacks at the moment. The only thing I would say is that is it not likely that the positioning of the 515 will have a long term effect on the suspension and result in sag?

I do not know about the sensitively. The 515G with +4dB might go up 103-104db. The sensitively is not what I would care looking at the picture, thought I hardly see in there 98db. Sure, all loudspeaker systems are compromises but some of them are not compromised but wrong. You have to stop to think in term of phase cancellation but in term of Sound. Connect right and left speakers in opposite phase and position them vertically – you will perfectly mimic what this guy does. The reasons why I am so bold about it because I did it in past during my period when I read all those Allison fantasies about injection of back-phase signals into listening space.

Yes, I agree that if system designer provide some explanation as to his design choices it would be more valuable observation but he is Japanese with all sonic negative consequences (in fact the open-bass-horn would be very typical for the "Japanese Sound"). Also, I insist that is the level at which a playback is being used by the system owner is an indication of the system accomplishment. So, looking at that the Brazilian guy does, his overriding everything with his favorite digital toys, without any senses of any regards to Sound.... to me it is a very objective indication of what is going on there.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-06-2007

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	35
Post ID:	3921
Reply to:	3920

Sound check

It is kind of sad to me to see the arguing going on here. One reason I like this site is because we can all have our opinions freely. About the design I will say this:

Any time digital correction is used, this is a bad sign. There are either serious design flaws or the person's listening objectives are questionable in regards to good sound. Every time I have heard digital correction so far, I feel like the beautiful redwood forest is being put through a wood chipper and I am being pelted with thousands of tiny toothpicks instead.

It is important to remember that the Subjective musical result is the goal, but this does not mean to disregard all objective data. People who focus on objective data forget that when the data do not show a difference, there can always be more we are not measuring, hence the importance of the final step of subjective listening. BUT, this is not an excuse to ignore objective findings. When one sees something as ridiculous as the Brazilian horn, you kind of have to assume objectively it is going to be bad-sounding unless proven otherwise. Is something with so many design flaws that it makes you cringe when you look at it likely to be made by someone who has some special audio secrets up their sleeve? I kind of have to doubt it.

But I digress. This website is a place for us to all come together and share our experiences and learn, not to shout at each other ignorantly; if I wanted that I would just go to AA.

Happy listening!
Adrian

03-06-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	36
Post ID:	3923
Reply to:	3912

OK: Amplified by the walls

As I re-read my own posts I see where someone might still think I was merely suggesting that the ringing of the horn itself "produced" the ringing sounds I refer to. And in fact I have heard this. However I was referring also to the gratuitous bell-like sounds produced by horns shaped +/- like the bronze example, and I would also have to say that, other factors being equal, metal horns produce/sustain a much more aggressive iteration of this "self-generated" ringing than tar horns, in my experience. It MAY also be that metal horns sustain this ringing over a wider frequency range, or that wide range metal horns are more likely to re-produce this ringing at the octave point.

Anyway, I just looked at that thing again and I am sorry but I can still "hear" it ringing just by looking at it.

I remember once that I happened to be holding a tuning fork (guitar) as I listened to a concerto and being aware that both the horn (A7 500) and the fork were going off at 440 Hz. Aaaa... Nuts, right?

Best regards,
Paul S

03-07-2007

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Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	37
Post ID:	3924
Reply to:	3921

Objectivity

drdna wrote:
It is important to remember that the Subjective musical result is the goal, but this does not mean to disregard all objective data. When one sees something as ridiculous as the Brazilian horn, you kind of have to assume objectively it is going to be bad-sounding unless proven otherwise.
Adrian

Hi Adrian,

I have to say that any system using a DSP unit like DEQX is likely to objectively be light years ahead of 99% of those that don't.

It will probably still sound horrible of course, but that's entirely subjective - let's not get the two mixed up.

Romy, I took the 98db/w from the tweeter which will not be higher sensitivity in that implementation. If the other units are higher than that, then yes it is a moronic system! For what it's worth, I am still struggling to identify the midrange compression drive unit - it appears TAD like but is not deep enough from what I can see. Any ideas?

03-07-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	38
Post ID:	3925
Reply to:	3924

Hmmm... "....then yes it is a moronic system!"

Merlin wrote:
I took the 98db/w from the tweeter which will not be higher sensitivity in that implementation. If the other units are higher than that, then yes it is a moronic system!

There is nothing moronic in that playback in the subject of tweeter. Ironically you have difficulties to acknowledge the obviously faulty moments in that installation but then you challenge other, perfectly lucid aspects, and because of it you are calling the system “moronic”. This all leads me to wonder if you have any personal experiences or any subject references to the subjects we discuss. I know that you come from Tannoy forums and perhaps you need some time to break-in is no BS environment. Anyhow, it would be a homework for you: try to educate yourself why in that Brazilian installation the 98db in tweeter (as you say so) would not be a problems.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-07-2007

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Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	39
Post ID:	3927
Reply to:	3925

English

Sorry I don't think you understand. Maybe it's because English is no doubt your second language - a shame as it makes intelligent conversation difficult. Try to read through it again.

I have never been on any Tannoy forum - didn't even know they had one.

I've never called this system moronic - you have.

03-07-2007

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pe1mmk
Posts 5
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	40
Post ID:	3930
Reply to:	3927

welcome

Well you are very welcome to the Tannoy discussion group. Romy plugged his site at our Tannoy group, so he cannot oppose me plugging our site.

http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm

and:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tannoy/

Thanks in advance,

kindest regards,

PE1MMK

03-07-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	41
Post ID:	3933
Reply to:	3927

Let, Return back to the Brazilian horn...

Merlin wrote:
Sorry I don't think you understand. Maybe it's because English is no doubt your second language - a shame as it makes intelligent conversation difficult. Try to read through it again.

I have never been on any Tannoy forum - didn't even know they had one.

I've never called this system moronic - you have.

Merlin, ironically I feel the very same about you, go figure? I think you might be also benefited to read through the thread again and the most important to try some of the practical things himself. Not necessarily in order to prove to me where I was wrong and Moronic (live it to my biographers) but in order to discover where I was coming from. Try also the “plugged pe1mmk” site. You might find it entertaining; he told at his site that has made Tannoy Gold to have 110dB sensitivity. Very funny! I have a car that goes 4535 miles per gallon and a girlfriend who like new MC cartridges more then new diamonds. BTW, the “plugged pe1mmk” also believes that if anyone has any doubts about his views on any subjects (and particularly on the subject where he is objectively clawless) then this person has problems with basic English. Anyhow, my apologies that I was under impression that you are from the Tannoy camp as you and the “plugged one” jointed this site together. Now, let return back to the Brazilian horns, if anything else is left to talk about that horns….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-08-2007

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pe1mmk
Posts 5
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	42
Post ID:	3953
Reply to:	3933

plugged pe1mmk

I have treated you decent on the Tannoy Yahoo Group. Now look how you treat me here.
You have again disqualified yourself. I am very sorry to see this happen, I did not think you do this.
:-(
Kind regards,
PE1MMK

03-09-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	43
Post ID:	3956
Reply to:	3953

Unless you are wiling me to completely ignor you...

pe1mmk wrote:
I have treated you decent on the Tannoy Yahoo Group. Now look how you treat me here.
You have again disqualified yourself. I am very sorry to see this happen, I did not think you do this.
:-(
Kind regards,
PE1MMK

Pe1mmk,

What do you mean “treatment”, what do you mean “pluged the site”? Are you out of your mind? I care less how you treat me or I treat you and particularly I care less about any “treatment” in context of environment stuffed with easy-to-be-thrilled-by-nothing accumulations or yahoos - something that you breed at your group. My definition of decent treatment is not the public “sucking each other dick” (according to Tarantino) or worshiping the deal labels but a demonstration of some respect to the subject and objectives – something that your group and you do not have. Talking about the subjects: among the 6 posts that you have made at THIS site all of them were not on the subject. When you tried to make it look as it was on the subject then it always sounded as you do not even understood what the subject was all about. So, do not blame the massager when I suggest you to review own ability to deal with audio ideas in no BS environment. Please do not continue to reply in this thread is you do not feel that it would be related to the Brazilian horn.

Rsg, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-09-2007

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pe1mmk
Posts 5
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #:	44
Post ID:	3957
Reply to:	3956

delete

you can delete me as user of this forum.

03-09-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	45
Post ID:	3958
Reply to:	3957

A boring experiment with another Pavlovian dog…

You never were a user of this forum. All that you did was jumping at this site, looking a few pictures and then accusing others that you do not understated what you can’s not understated. Why do you think anyone should care? Perhaps sometimes you will learn that there is a lot more to audio then finding some externals means to exercised own simplicity. Thanks, BTW, for booting me today from you Tannoy groups. Even in that you were a perfectly manageable marionette, complete within the scope of your Pavlovian reflexes. Good-bye.... and nd welcome to the club of them.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-13-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	46
Post ID:	3995
Reply to:	3861

A tweeter in that Brazilian Horn

I asked my Japanese speaking friend to translate for me the information about the tweeter in that Brazilian installation. It is JBL UT-045Be, I never have seen/heard it, and so I presume many others…

25mm beryllium spherical diaphragm, 52mm circular neodymium magnet, Aluminum die-cast frame, horizontal 60°× vertical 30° with adjustable horn profile, external adjustable crossover, 50W power handling, sensitivity is from 98dB to 102dB, Recommendation crossover frequency 16kHz/20kHz/24kHz (- 24dB/oct), Impedance 4R, mass 1Kg. Price: 500,000 yean (roughly $5K)…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-26-2009

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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #:	47
Post ID:	10351
Reply to:	3893

More damping materials

jd, may I ask what is the name of the damping material you refer to? I am stuck trying to find a suitable damping material for a 140Hz horn.

Another option that comes to mind is heavy rope: simply wound tightly round the horn. Something natural like manila should be solid enough.

Rgds, d

04-26-2009

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	48
Post ID:	10356
Reply to:	10351

Spanish damping

Hello D,
Its sold by the meter, and has no packaging, so there was no name to note; I do remember that it came from Spain. Could not find any info on the net, however, I often pass by the place that sold it to me, so will stop in and ask. Hope they still have it; if they don't, they should know where to get it.
jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

04-26-2009

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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #:	49
Post ID:	10361
Reply to:	10356

Interior vs exterior damping

Very many thanks, Jessie.

Presumably damping the interior may also be desirable where the horn is quite thin. I know there has been a lot of discussion on this site about the right quality of paint, but mostly in the context of heavy MDF horns. What is the view on heavy damping paints such as this: http://www.cascadeaudio.com/marine/vb_1x_damping_compound.htm ?

04-27-2009

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	50
Post ID:	10367
Reply to:	10361

Damping with VB-1X

http://www.cascadeaudio.com/marine/vb_1x_damping_compound.htm

After reading the tech notes on VB-1X, I have difficulty with the manufacturer's claim that the product is effective at damping frequencies down to 10Hz, when at the same time they specify a coating that measures only "1/32 - 1/16 inch" in depth...

This product seems to be conceived mostly for automotive use. In this context (sheet metal panels), I would say that as much of the benefit comes from the added mass to the panel, as from the product's capacity for "converting vibration into viscous friction" (potential quote of the week there).

Composition-wise, no details are given as to the liquid component, but as it cleans up with water, I would guess it to be a thickened latex (sort of like thick latex house paint). As for solids, "silica-mica ceramics"; I will say only that silica is the primary component of common sand.

Along the same lines, you may want to check out 3M "Body Schutz" and other paintable rubberized coatings : http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/c-577-undercoatings.aspx
Also available in aerosol cans that work very well.

Unless building up an abnormally thick coat, none of the above will be as effective as the previously-mentioned 1/4" thick, semi-cured rubber product from Spain, however, it is important to note that this stuff is not paintable, and is the color of peanut butter.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

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