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»	New	Macondo Frame modification...	Parquet...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	46	464304	12-22-2006
»	New	Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..	A link to another thread....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	120	681142	07-29-2007
»	New	Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..	The "old" servo......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	73	344342	06-20-2015
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»	New	Jessie Dazzle Project..	Will this better to be auditable?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	172	1564569	08-03-2007

02-21-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	76
Post ID:	26074
Reply to:	26073

Good luck.

Anthony,

Yes, this is the exact configuration that I have. As you drive your LF channels down, probably it will be 30-35Hz with >2 order filter you will like the sound from them even more. I hope you have a good amp to drive is as Milq will not have enough gain and power. Grabbing any brutal SS amp will not work in my estimation as they produce too dry and too fast bass. This is a very separate and frankly a complex subject how to drive the lower bass to compliment your DSET.

The Vitavox 15" drivers. It should be time-aligned and should not be “good”. Do not invest a lot on into the enclosure and it is most likely you would need one driver per channel not 2. The Vitavox 15" drivers are in my estimation are stanning as direct radiators, the best bass I even heard in my life came from them. To use them in context of your installation is relatively complex as your midbass will be working in relatively narrow bandwidth and will literally fill some gaps. It is not practical to talk about this type of midbass in terms of frequency and it will be rather an “cloud” of sound that will be to great degree contingent upon your specific sonic signature of R and L channels in your specific listening room. Do not waste a lot of money for enclosure sand do not be afraid to go asymmetrical with you narrow band midbass: this is advantage not a drawback. Yes, DO NOT get seduced to subtract sound running it in back phase to your room problematic zones. The neighboring channels MUST sumazes not subtract, even if subtract fives to you flatter response. Get from eBay for $50 a pair of sealed car’s cubes, I think they are 20X20, put in there some foam and it is all you need. You can start with one channel and you two driver per side It will take for you a week to fine what you need of you have a stock of coils and caps home. They it will take for you another 2 weeks or so to find peace with the volume of the that midbass. That midbass will be very beautiful and you will be impressed initially but with time goes by you will realize that you do not wans to be impressed by the bass and you will find a way to subdue that impressed and to let it to shoe own only when it needed. It will take bot you a few years to fine a good power amp to drive your lower bass section. Let me know what you will end up with as I do not have prices with what I have.

Yes, one more thing, if you wiling to drive your new midbass from Milq’s lower Chenal then do not forget the proper loading. You bass tower probably are low on R and your Vitavox is 15R. You might need a another OPT or remap your sections of you can. Generally, the more you ideal the amp against this driver the best I find the result it, like use 2 or 4R output taps. You will be losing power with that starvation loading but you most like will like the sound.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-21-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	77
Post ID:	26075
Reply to:	26074

Good to hear

Thanks Romy,

I was hoping to hear that you remain happy with your midbass solution and was surprised at the time about the small cabinets that you used for the Vitavox 15"ers, but having measured T/S parameters of the drivers here I can see that indeed they do not need much of a box at all...the cube you suggest is pretty much ideal.

At the moment I use the DSET lower channel to drive my lower bass and I have plenty of volume sub 20Hz thanks to a well sealed room and resulting high room gain. This should not change and I expect to continue running the Bass Cannons from Melqs lowest channel. The midbass channel will give me a little flexibility to play with how low the upperbass horns are cutoff because I feel that the Bass Cannons are a just a little stretched once they get close to 100Hz. When I first built them I indeed fell in love with the sound...never has bass been so soft and full and effortlessly articulated in my playback and I was lost in throngs of that passion for a long time and just could not hear your words about the sound as they approached the UB horn. Well, with many listening hours and a familiarity with my sound two things have been identified for improvement and that slight change of 'clarity' circa 100Hz is one of them along with the 40Hz room problem. A third may prove to be more flexible integration of the UB horns by passing them a little higher.

Midbass can be run from the DSET Injection Channel as I have yet to experiment with that speaker. It will be Melquiades from 10Hz to 40kHz.

At this stage the 15" can be boxed individually and hung from the side of the Bass Cannons, most likely on the outside, or even placed on top of the horn stack where your Tannoy Reds are situated. I think the former will be the better solution given the closer proximity to the UB horn and the direct sound not being blocked by the Fundamentals Horn. Hanging from the Bass Cannons also gives the flexibility to raise/lower the Vitavox drivers in increments of 30cm (12") just by changing the Cannon from which they hang, and because the Bass Cannons sit on pneumatic isolators and do not shake the floor directly (only with sound pressure it seems) the room sound proofing will remain intact.

I will give this a go.

Anthony

04-02-2021

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jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #:	78
Post ID:	26090
Reply to:	26074

Vitavox Corner Horn

Romy,When you say that the Vitavox 15" was the best midbass you heard, was it in a Vitavox corner horn? I'm think about acquiring or building a pair of Vitavox corner horns as I have a perfect room for them.

04-05-2021

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	79
Post ID:	26091
Reply to:	26090

Phase alignment of a corner horn?

Hi Jeff,I am certain that the best midbass was NEVER in a corner horn. Every fold in the horn is a new resonance. Corner horns need many folds...
In addition, if you are very "anal retentive" about phase alignment - how do you integrate a corner horn? Any upper bass, midrange, HF would need equivalent delay for at least 1-2 meters as the signal from the woofer has to travel that distance before it even leaves the corner.
There are many schemes to get "more bass" out of a driver. Most of them have nothing to do with better sound.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-05-2021

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jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #:	80
Post ID:	26092
Reply to:	26091

Corner Horn Bass

I have to disagree with you here. Until you've heard the bass from a JBL Hartsfield, you haven't heard bass. Best bass I've heard period.
I'm curious if the Vitavox is of the same caliber.

04-05-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	81
Post ID:	26093
Reply to:	26092

"Bass"

"Best bass" is of course a matter of opinion based on experience and expectations. The (original) Hartsfield LF driver is certainly "designed for horn loading", like the Vitavox AK-151, whereas the AK-150 and the JBL D-130 are designed to be direct radiators. I am thinking that where bass crosses over to midrange, the most natural bass for acoustic music that I have heard comes from direct radiators that by design and by default do not "plumb the depths". The original Hartsfields could play most of what was on an LP when they debuted, and IMO the originals are still better than most modern speakers. Later, JBL added a tweeter, and Classic Audio added an 18" driver to that to play more contemporary LPs. IMO, time alignment at XO is worth considering in terms of the sound (and resultant musical capabilities). Any given speaker might "gain LF" by near wall or corner placement. Typically, lots of peaks and valleys. Give it a shot.

Best regards,
Paul S

04-05-2021

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	82
Post ID:	26094
Reply to:	26093

Bass subdivision

I think we have to subdivide bass into upper bass from 100hz to whatever your midrange does and bass under 100hz and then maybe infrabass. Front loaded upper bass horns are fantastic and I would say if you never heard one, you really never heard a real horn system. Under 100 hz there might be several options which may vary from back loaded horns, tapped horns and direct radiators and their importance is also vital. The dynamics of this range can kill or make the whole system. A system that tries to play upper bass and bass at the same time won´t be able to bring out the delicate resolution on any of these combined systems, I have tried them all. The Hartsfield Top Loader, I guess you call them the "original" ones were useless, the labrynth was so complicated no sound came out of there , plus a down firing driver is never a good idea,I had them for 2 years expecting to get good sound out of them and never worked out. The later model "coffin back" are much better but still no competition to a real front loaded horn in terms of transparency and dynamics, being able to time align it perfectly and tune it to the right frequencies make a big difference. Altec 416 direct radiators are dark sounding by comparison.

04-07-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	83
Post ID:	26096
Reply to:	26094

Had a moment today...

First upperbass horn is up and running. Second one is now on the lathe with hopefully a quick turnaround. Now I have to figure out how best to tune it...

04-07-2021

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	84
Post ID:	26097
Reply to:	26096

That is simply beautiful

I am far too impatient to keep a project of this magnitude going for this long.

As far as tuning it, buy Romy a ticket...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

04-08-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	85
Post ID:	26098
Reply to:	26096

Create an integrity cheat-list.

Anthony, it feels like more of less comprehensive solution. I like that you make the mid-bass horns to have the same externals profile as lower midrange horn, this is making is visually very complete. If it was mine, then I would use less gloss on fine and would stay more with textured paint, but it just my personal preference. You might here sometimes I advocate textured paint applied to mouth of the horns, but I do not have any methodological clear empirical evidence that it makes any difference and I rather take this side as “burning bush” believe system. I am a bit surprised that you feel it might be difficulty to tune them. Started with the setting I have as a default.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=13&postID=24520#24520

The measurements are done at the middle of mouth setting of each horn. This is good configuration in my view that doe does not take in account room or any other variable and a perfect test of amps gain and performances of the filters. Drive 1K tone (or whatever my Sansui- TUX1 outputs with own test generator) set the volume at first 4 light on your Placette. You will have a proper balance between the channels for 6-10 feet of listening distance. Spend some time with this setting and then you can move to any other configuration you feel better works for you. I have a lot of knowledge what will happens if we move one of the channels crossovers up or down, more volume or less volume, there was a lot of time spent experimenting with all of it. If you would like to ask in a context and I will be happy to explain, whatever I still remember. Do not feel however that I feel that to change the balance that I found is some kind of deviation of normality. In fact, if I was in your shoe, I would serially experiment with it. The proposed channels arrangement is a very good starting point hewer. I do it a few times a year to assure the constancy of the whole system configuration. You will see it will run away with time and the cheat-list that I created is very useful for me. I have seen some tubes run away, the kids might touch something, drivers can get damaged or become weaker, the cleaning ladies might disconnect some cables, some mistakes might be made by myself during operation… With 14 channels we have, there is a LOT that might go wrong. To have a system integrity cheat-list I found to be a very effective tool to have.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-08-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	86
Post ID:	26099
Reply to:	26090

Do not even remember what year was it....

jeff1225 wrote:
Romy,When you say that the Vitavox 15" was the best midbass you heard, was it in a Vitavox corner horn? I'm think about acquiring or building a pair of Vitavox corner horns as I have a perfect room for them.

Sorry, Jeff, I did not see your post. Yes, the midbass I was talking about came from default Vitavox corner horn. The owner has a few of the identical Vitavox corner horn and he claimed that they all sone different and the one that I hear was the best. I do not know if I subscribe that believe. If they sound all different ten it should be other reason for it. Anyhow, this very same “the best sounding” Vitavox corner heard a number of times in different settings, and I always was very not only not good but rathe very bad sound overall and the midbass in particularly was laughable. However, in one specific location it was beyond believe wonderful.

BTW, the irony was that it was completely accidental location, it was not a music room and there were efforts spent to set it up. It was in in hotel, some kind of large room that was used for storage and the speakers were connected purely for fun and thrown in the corners. It was one of the “whole shit” events! We are the idiots who always try to do something “better” but it was so good that we very much realized that we should not touch ANYTHING as the evets like this happens once a life time. I do feel that the speakers accidently hit DPoLS and we had the very same sound across the whole room but that is a different story all together.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

04-09-2021

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	87
Post ID:	26100
Reply to:	26098

Tuning the horn

Romy, it is the UB horn that I need to first tune. Have found an earlier post of yours where you describe your process and will roughly follow it. First thing though is to measure an impedance sweep of the horn sitting in place to get the base line then play with filling the back-chamber to get the horn resonance frequency equal to the mouth frequency, or thereabouts (reactance annulling). 99cm or 38.5" diameter = 110Hz horn, so I will make sure I start somewhere there.

The paint used for the horns is actually textured/hammered black. There is a slight metallic hint to the colour which is very black, much blacker than other textured paints that I found, which gives a slight tendency to reflect light. Certainly not a gloss finish nor even satin but probably somewhere between matte and satin. The bass cannons and amplifiers (and all my diy equipment) is matte black powdercoating which provides a subtle contrast even though the same colour.

The cheat sheet is a great idea. Will definitely do one up once it is all set up.

04-09-2021

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,160
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	88
Post ID:	26102
Reply to:	26100

It is simple, but...

Ah, you were asking about the tunning of the uperbass horn? That is very simple. You need to make the primary resonance to hit exactly at the horn’s mouth rate. So, it is it 110Hz horn then make the primary impedance to peak at 110Hz, there are many ways to measure it by manipulating the size of the back chamber.

Ok, should I let it go or to be me? Ok, let to be me. With all simplicity of above there is an ugly question in it there that is VERY complex. Let say that one of your 110Hz in your specific position hit a G-spot and pick up some room gain, effectively acting like 140Hz horn. Should you set the primary resonance at 110Hz or at 140Hz? The different will be very auditable and what is “better”? This is not so simple, and I do not have a definitive answer. You can make one horn to feel “better” but then your uperbass image might be shift unpleasantly. If you have both 110Hz horns siting in acoustic G-spot and become 140Hz horns then stop building hoe and begin to buy lottery... :-)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Macondo Frame modification...	Parquet...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	46	464304	12-22-2006
»	New	Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..	A link to another thread....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	120	681142	07-29-2007
»	New	Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..	The "old" servo......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	73	344342	06-20-2015
»	New	Another time aligned 5-way horn project..	Thread moved...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	189	881618	08-12-2015
»	New	5-ways from Speedysteve7..	Hehe - no invite for you...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	23	206457	05-20-2011
»	New	Jessie Dazzle Project..	Will this better to be auditable?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	172	1564569	08-03-2007