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05-30-2014

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	20915
Reply to:	20914

I do not think so but sometime is does happen

steverino wrote:
As for Guy Sergeant's comment about the demo choices, I assume those kind of artificial sounding mixes are done on purpose as are demos with dynamically or frequency limited demo material.

Hm, I would not be concern if it was dynamically or frequency limited demo material. What is more important is that it was culturally limited material. Thos people understand audio as dynamic and frequency reproduction. BTW, my old memories when I experienced the Magico guy themselves in demo conditions were no different from what their reps put off. I remember a few years back when the mooned six times Srajan Ebaen was shilling Magico he presented the Magico founder as some kind of cultural attaché from another galaxy. He made picture his with poetic phase hugging his guitar and flower on the background were in full brume. Well, I am of course not cultural QA engineer but from my personal meeting with the guy I can testify that he was a profane. The very last time I met him in was in Vegas and he was playing in his room his small monitors. It was playing some kind of typical CES just crap but it was played at superbly offensive volume. You cat not imagine how loud it was. I literally felt pain to be in a corridor 20 feet from that room. The Magico owner did it completely voluntary and deliberate witch to me was very informative.

Saying all of it I do agree that in some case demo are restricted for very primitive material and for right reasons. I do not think that it was the Magico case in Munich.

BTW, I do remember years back a guy was visiting me who was working as electronic designer for a pro audio company. He brought his own music and played Wishing Well by Michael Ruff. I asked him what is it? He replied that this is how he pay his mortgage - he design inferior electronics and then plays this Wishing Well to his Morons customers... then they sign the check.

Me.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-30-2014

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	27
Post ID:	20916
Reply to:	20915

Do we get what we deserve?

If I went to a Ferrari dealer and "kicked the tires", they would ask me what I am doing there. In the audio world, there are a lot of people "listening" to the Magico that are not doing anything else except kicking tires.

Why the dealers/reps feed those people at all is the question. No one that gets molested by a Taiko Drum is going to buy those speakers. The people in the audience are just "kicking the tires".

The fact that the dealers/reps feed them at all show that they really do not understand their market. Who can really say what these people listen to?

Well, I don't know any Magico morons, but I do know some challenged Magnepan, Martin Logan, Acapella, Avantgarde Acoustics, Klipsch, Bose, Lowther, AES owners and they never have played drum records for me. I do get Chesky, internet radio, Reference Recordings, Delos and other "selected" labels played at volumes that have nothing to do with the concert hall. Very seldom do I get played anything "unspectacular". That I have to bring myself. Almost all of them have iPhones as a main source of music. Every listening experience has fallen apart with my favorite record - Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and Gerald Moore performing "The schöne Müllerin". Gee, if a speaker can reproduce a drum at twice live volumes, why is a piano so hard.................

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

05-30-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	28
Post ID:	20917
Reply to:	20915

Rigged demos

My point was simply that it is routine for speaker demos to mininize the weak points of the speakers by choosing material which is hard to compare to an external source. The Taiko drum demo, as stupid as it is on one level, might have been an attempt to deflect the criticism that Magicos are only for playing loud electronica/pop and can't accurately play acoustic instruments. Thus they choose an acoustic instrument that hardly anyone knows and is made so variably that there is no standard sound for it. Just a thought.

05-30-2014

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	29
Post ID:	20918
Reply to:	20917

Demos are Rigged, Alright

Of course they play sounds they think their speakers shine with, and they may actually have a better handle on their "audience" than we have given them credit for. Remember that much audio spending is about generating and countering envy. And remember that it is not out of the question that people who pine for Magicos actually LIKE the drums.

Paul S

05-31-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	30
Post ID:	20919
Reply to:	20918

Lead in??

I rather doubt that the crowd there was demanding Taiko drum demos. We need to know how the Magico rep set up the demo and what he said to the people there and what other "music" he played. I don't see a repeat of Taiko elsewhere as being likely either. Since Magico speakers are nothing posters here are interested in that I know of, it is just an example of the increasingly bizarre world of high end.

05-31-2014

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Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #:	31
Post ID:	20920
Reply to:	20919

Magico at Munich

On Thursday ,trade day a variety of music was being played and you could just wander into the room, it was always busy, for the rest of the show he same handful of songs were played, the demonstration on ly lasted twenty minutes, such was the popularity to ensure a seat one had to enter as the previous demonstration ended, perhaps waiting half an hour in silence.The choice of music was all close mic'd and chosen for impact, and the end of the demonstration many applauded.I believe Magico use a digital crossover and DEQX for room correction, as has been mentioned the seats were really too close to the drivers, the sound was somewhat 'steeley' and the very opposite ( in terms of horns) to the WE12/13's.Keith.

05-31-2014

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	32
Post ID:	20921
Reply to:	20920

It's Business

These Hifi Shows remind me always to that one:

That's an old cartoon.

Today we can replace the first price "....excellent cartridge for $10389" ----> It's also available "without ..... for $ 18.95"

Kind Regards
Stitch

05-31-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	33
Post ID:	20922
Reply to:	20916

Drum drum dum dum

rowuk wrote:
Every listening experience has fallen apart with my favorite record - Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and Gerald Moore performing "The schöne Müllerin". Gee, if a speaker can reproduce a drum at twice live volumes, why is a piano so hard.................

Well of course they are Not reproducing a drum at twice live volume they are merely playing a recording of a drum at higher volume. If you analyzed the wave form it would Not be the same, just louder. It would be distorted. The point of loud demos is to distract from the actual sounds and momentarily impress by loudness. It is a fact that listeners prefer the louder of two equivalent recordings, hence the loudness wars and dynamic compression. If they play at normal volumes or the same volume as produced by the instrument that was mic'ed, then disturbing thoughts begin to bubble up about how artificial it sounds.

06-01-2014

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rowuk

Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #:	34
Post ID:	20923
Reply to:	20922

Also doch: Durchfall (use Google translate...)

steverino wrote:

Well of course they are Not reproducing a drum at twice live volume they are merely playing a recording of a drum at higher volume. If you analyzed the wave form it would Not be the same, just louder. It would be distorted. The point of loud demos is to distract from the actual sounds and momentarily impress by loudness. It is a fact that listeners prefer the louder of two equivalent recordings, hence the loudness wars and dynamic compression. If they play at normal volumes or the same volume as produced by the instrument that was mic'ed, then disturbing thoughts begin to bubble up about how artificial it sounds.

Yup, that type of sound at a show has no purpose except bowel movement. Get attention. Even if I really liked drums, it still would be a crap demo.

We still need to be careful about acknowledging intelligence where it does not exist. They do not sell more product by knee jerk or diaper change at that price level.

Still, I think about what would be necessary to give an intelligent "proper" "GoodSound" demo of these speakers. It certainly would not start with other source material. Perhaps electronic music is not a bad idea, we can create it to NOT have overtones and only have content in the individual pass bands of the driver. Maybe it is even possible to compose music that would use the out of absolute phase parameter as an art element.
EUREKA - The Magico is a creative tool for new experimental music - not a reproducer of old!
Even Miles Davis is on record as calling Beethovens music "Dead Shit"............

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

06-01-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	35
Post ID:	20925
Reply to:	20923

Born to be alive

rowuk wrote:

EUREKA - The Magico is a creative tool for new experimental music - not a reproducer of old!

Even Miles Davis is on record as calling Beethovens music "Dead Shit"............

Presumably the music that Magico (or other vendors) plays at demos is a signal to their audience as to what the speakers were designed for.

As for Miles Davis we have to ask what he meant by "shit" because in jazz speak that can be good. If he meant something bad then he must have known people would say the same thing about his music once he was not alive. Interestingly Miles' explorations of modal jazz were anticipated by Beethoven's explorations of modality in Romantic music as in his String Quartet #15. Apparently also , Beethoven towards the end of his life was considering writing a modal symphony.

06-02-2014

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	36
Post ID:	20934
Reply to:	20925

Sheep covered as Wolves

Sometimes we have luck when we listen to a System and we can have the illusion of - more or less - pure music realism, but the majority of Systems are sophisticated hi-fi.
Not enough, the more expensive the components are, the better dressed the sales people are. Serious business, not fun, not hobby....someone has to pay the bill at the end of the day. They explain technical datas like selling a laundry machine with 30 washing programs. These technical datas are linked to be mandatory for a superior reproduction. And when you don't get it, then you are simply too stupid or/and too poor to afford it.

Well, but let's be honest, can it be so difficult to create something which touches the soul? We all know, music is in a way subjective, when it moves you, it doesn't matter what source it is. When you listen to a song in your car and you really like it, didn't you drive another round around the block just to avoid to leave the car before the song ends? Compressed radio signal, hard disc, MP3, limited frequencies but.... it can make you dream...
Why should I spend factor 1000 for something which does not move me? For something which makes me escape after 3 minutes? For something, where I think "Please Mercy!!! Stop that...I Want to go OUT !!!!"
These well dressed guys also educate us WHAT kind of noise (they call it music) is the right one and the majority of listeners accept that. They applaud in front of the price tag that they got the chance to listen to something they can never afford but they dream every minute of the rotten audiophile life about it. They would immediately buy it when they would win the lottery (and could kick the wife out of the house). Did you ever think about the fact that women avoid such shows whenever they can? It's a man's world...
Some years ago I was sitting in a room, doing nothing, a young couple came in, he was a sporty guy, maybe 30, jeans, pink shirt, gold watch, his girlfriend wasn't ugly (really rare to see normally at such Shows), he stopped, inhaled the air deeply a few times, the load of the world fell apart his shoulders and then he said to his girlie, "Haaaah, yes....THAT is Wilson with Krell !!!!!!!!!!!!!"
But they didn't play. Just static on Demo.

Kind Regards
Stitch

06-02-2014

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	37
Post ID:	20935
Reply to:	20934

Solved problems

Stitch wrote:
Sometimes we have luck when we listen to a System and we can have the illusion of - more or less - pure music realism, but the majority of Systems are sophisticated hi-fi.

Well, but let's be honest, can it be so difficult to create something which touches the soul? We all know, music is in a way subjective, when it moves you, it doesn't matter what source it is. When you listen to a song in your car and you really like it, didn't you drive another round around the block just to avoid to leave the car before the song ends? Compressed radio signal, hard disc, MP3, limited frequencies but.... it can make you dream...
Why should I spend factor 1000 for something which does not move me? For something which makes me escape after 3 minutes? For something, where I think "Please Mercy!!! Stop that...I Want to go OUT !!!!"

Not to excuse the audio designers but the problem really begins in the recording studio or site. It is not as if we don't know how to make good sounding (accurate to the limit of the technology) recordings. Examples abound. Similarly we know how to build good sounding concert halls. Examples abound. If people would just be held accountable for producing good sounding recordings much of the BS of the audio business would be stillborn. It is difficult for me to assess an audio system because I have no standardized recordings to test it (using headphones or a treated room). At best I can use pink noise to try to assess general spectral balance but that is a blunt instrument. I am not even saying that all recordings have to sound alike. It is very easy to take an audiophile recording tape and process it so it sounds compressed or has a weird frequency balance, no dynamics, spotlit frequencies etc.Then release the good recording to those who want to pay a higher price and the doctored one that sounds good on the radio or the IPod. I only know what recordings sound good on the system I play them on. When I change the system my preference can change too.

Similarly speakers are so variable that we end up with a plethora of amplifiers that all sound different to cope with the speakers. The speaker developer ideally should have an amp constructed that perfectly matches the impedance and other properties of the speaker. We are starting to see a bit of that with the headphone makers who are putting out headphone amps too. The designer who worked on some Electrostatic speakers also put out the Innersound amp to drive them. (The process described above would not prevent different preamplication components, DACS etc by the way.)

I understand the various objections to this approach which constricts mix and match and extreme optimization. However that is a process for which an extremely small number of people are expert enough and affluent enough to pursue successfully. Most other people are lost at sea. These are the people who never get into hi-end audio currently or fall out of it Given the competition of better in-home video more people are just dropping out.

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