| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Macondo’s lowest channel. (151 posts, 8 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 6 of 7 (151 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 3 4 5 6 7 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  151809  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  63208  05-18-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  687068  07-29-2007
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2157744  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2995773  05-20-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18226  10-08-2010
  »  New  Bass impact on Turntable: how to estimate objectively..  I have done some work on this in the past....  Analog Playback Forum     4  47904  11-01-2010
  »  New  The meaning of lowest octave...  Vibrational bass...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  24675  05-18-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Danley DTS-20....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  693830  04-23-2009
  »  New  Monophonic bass: myth and reality...  I do not think so but I am OK with it....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  47111  04-17-2011
  »  New  The BEST bass cable?..  Dialectic biased cable....  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  45318  04-22-2011
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  15152  04-24-2011
  »  New  Getting more power from SET vs. properly distorting SS...  Sound Board...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  49656  05-09-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  129161  06-13-2011
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  488819  04-28-2009
  »  New  A slightly crazy idea for a new approach to LF..  I do like it conceptually......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  24681  03-30-2005
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  890399  08-12-2015
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  The Organic Bass vs. ULF Drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     43  133018  07-29-2018
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 126
Post ID: 17233
Reply to: 17232
"Tuning" the "IB"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, for one thing you will want to be sure of the location before you cut through your floor, ceiling, and/or roof!

While the basic idea of the IB is to have "separate but equal" loads on both sides of the driver, there are plenty of reasons to work up some sort of compromise, not the least of them being that only a "theoretical" driver is really optimized by a "theoretical" solution, not to mention the reality of available space and its organization for most people.

Looking at the drawing, without reflecting, I immediately thought of the the idea of the "port" effect at LF,  whether the loading and unloading would be "gradual" and "diffuse" enough to avoid port "signature" while also avoiding "soft" BR "losses".  Yes, tunnels might even be used to "bolster" naturally flagging response. But I remain skeptical about the quality of the "contribution" made by any "tunnel".  While it is no secret that I extend this skepticism to horns, there may be less disagreement about the role of a straight-sided tunnel at LF.

It may already have been discussed and sketched out here before, to have the entire LF box run straight down through the floor.  For that matter, there might even be ways to work some sort of "vent" back into the room.  I think someone sent in a picture of something like this a few months ago, in the context of holding another "SOTA" LF Machine up for scrutiny (perhaps looking for purchasing support...)?

Sure, the "ports" here would be "damped"...  Still...

As usual, the True Bitch of LF is that only one's best real-time, real world attempt will tell whether it "works" or not!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 127
Post ID: 17236
Reply to: 17233
Flip 90 degrees
fiogf49gjkf0d
Flipping the idea horizontal for testing with ports through outside windows on (e.g. on left and right side of room) would make this a relatively easy test and vs. holes in roof and floor.
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 128
Post ID: 17237
Reply to: 17236
Little bump and the elephant solutions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Guys, I am not looking or care about the design specifics but rather looking for some fresh idea and inspirations that would make me to think further. You see, if I shut down Macondo and measure just ULF channels then I have just little bump at minus 6-8dB around 23Hz-33Hz and it is it. For this I pay with two large woofer tower, amps, crossovers, cables etc…   too much mess and complexity for such a small benefit.  I know, I know. I understand that produce this “bump” at 25Hz with relatively low distortions there is no other ways then to go for large and expensive solutions. Still, I always feel that smart and elegant and better than expensive and I would like to find a smarter way to get my bump.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 129
Post ID: 17238
Reply to: 17237
How to do THAT?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Guys, I am not looking or care about the design specifics but rather looking for some fresh idea and inspirations that would make me to think further. You see, if I shut down Macondo and measure just ULF channels then I have just little bump at minus 6-8dB around 23Hz-33Hz and it is it. For this I pay with two large woofer tower, amps, crossovers, cables etc…   too much mess and complexity for such a small benefit.  I know, I know. I understand that produce this “bump” at 25Hz with relatively low distortions there is no other ways then to go for large and expensive solutions. Still, I always feel that smart and elegant and better than expensive and I would like to find a smarter way to get my bump.

Among all interesting alternative ideas that I have there is one that makes me to think a bit out of shoe box. Of cause I could try that propeller woofer that has so much publicity a few years back. It is small and it reportedly gives low bass.

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/

it is $25K per woofer and I need two, it is absolutely not know to me sound and I have null ability to product how that thing might sound. So, unless the propeller woofer people have some kind of framework that would let people like me to do my home trail I think what they do will be more like internet freak show instead of being a practical and viable solution. I also concern that being located in the same focal location with the rest of speakers the rotary woofer might be too mechanically noisy. I do not mention that my Koshka would for sure object if in the middle of her room I install two cat-chopping machines…

Ok, returning back to my out of shoe box idea. What I would like to have idly would be a properly sounding Sunfire True Subwoofer Junior.

http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=10

This thing is a beauty itself. It is 11 by 11 inch small, it is has own amp inside and has own signal-sensing switch the turn itself on, it able to produce stunning acoustic pressure that can literally bring house down. This is a dream come thought for my placation. There is a small problem with this Sunfire prettiness, the same problem that is very common to anything that Bob Carver ever touched – this True Subwoofer sound like shit. I would not call that crap the this True Subwoofer out as bass but it rather it is some kind of generic pressurization of air and this pressurization has very little relevancy to what is being played.

It is not the point however. No one willing to employ the Bob Carver title fart machines but the idea to get all the bass that I need for my 25Hz bump from one small driver and one sq foot of spare I find is very elegant. The question is: how to do it? How to fuck up to rules of physics and to accomplish what I need to accomplish?

The high exertion of the small driver doe not bother be in my specific application. I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump, so all normal problem associated with high exertion are not applicable in there.  The problem with one sq foot ULF section, high power and high exertion is that when woofer is pushing or pulling there is not enough buffered space inside the enclosure, so the compressed air in the back of the sq foot ULF produce tremendous amount of distortions. Ok, but how about if we somehow change the rule of the game and insert inside of this small ULF section some kind of equivalent of Black Hole. Now as the woofer compress the air inside of enclosure the Black Hole would instantly and infinitely to consume that pressure, converting my one sq foot ULF section into infinite baffle. The problem with Black Hole is that when a driver goes out then in order to be infinite baffle the Black Hole shall give instant birth to infinite matter, to become sort of equivalent  of Supernova.

Two much fantasy? Not necessarily.  Let to think in very practical trims. I need some kind of solution that would consume and produce air in my hypothetic one sq foot ULF section. I can’t consume or produce matter but for sure I can transfer it. A friend of mine what I was dumpling all of it to him suggested me convert pressure to temperature. He suggested that if the speaker inside would be partially filled with some kind of liquid or gas that can change temperature from pressure than I might accomplish what I am looking for. I do not think that liquid would do it as it has not fast enough transfer function between pressure and temperature. Pretend that a sealed speaker is filled with gas that that has very fast transfer function and the signal besides driving the woofer power also a circuit that dispatch electrons or ions into the gas (remember a vacuum tube?). The gas has ability to change density, or temperature, or anything after being exposed to ionization. So, what we do is to figure out the delay time the driver need to get momentum and shoot electrons/ions into the gas behind the woofer, assuring that the woofer in falling into collapsed space behind it. As woofer need to go back we reverse polarity on our speaker cathode and suddenly the space behind the woofer behind begin to build pressure (along with drop of temperature for instance). I think we are very far here from Black Holes and Supernovas and with popper engineering support something like this might be experimented with…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 130
Post ID: 17239
Reply to: 17238
ULF from coffee table
fiogf49gjkf0d
If it were me and I had that basement that could be made use of, I would seek to achieve what you have done with your mid-bass horns in the loft. I know that you considered and dismissed the tapped horn idea some time ago but it would cost very little for you to experiment with it as opposed to the dual rotary woofers or home-made black hole solutions.

If the results are to your liking then, you might consider doing what I will do long term when I have a room with adjoining space either in the form of a basement or loft space (provided I like the results that can be obtained from a tapped horn). I would have the mouth of the tapped horn coming up through the floor at the appropriate point and hide most of the tapped horn itself in the basement. The top part of the tapped horn would be a coffee table or side table and neither you nor your guests would even know that it is there.

Best regards
Rakesh

10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 131
Post ID: 17240
Reply to: 17239
The through-hole tapped horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
If it were me and I had that basement that could be made use of, I would seek to achieve what you have done with your mid-bass horns in the loft. I know that you considered and dismissed the tapped horn idea some time ago but it would cost very little for you to experiment with it as opposed to the dual rotary woofers or home-made black hole solutions.

If the results are to your liking then, you might consider doing what I will do long term when I have a room with adjoining space either in the form of a basement or loft space (provided I like the results that can be obtained from a tapped horn). I would have the mouth of the tapped horn coming up through the floor at the appropriate point and hide most of the tapped horn itself in the basement. The top part of the tapped horn would be a coffee table or side table and neither you nor your guests would even know that it is there.

Yes, the idea of the tapped horn brought through-hole in the floor is something that I did consider and it is free from many problems that 4th order bandpass enclosures would have. However, I did not “dismiss the tapped horn idea some time ago” but I do not consider it as I never hear the any tapped horns.  I have no idea how they sound and I do look forward to hear them.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 132
Post ID: 17242
Reply to: 17238
25 hz at 6db?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump,

I have tried the same solution in a big room, the thing is that we not only got output at 25 hz, but a lot also at 50 hz! There was no way surgically cut it to what we needed and the result was it messed everything up. 
I finally used a tapped horn with a 12" woofer, it was clean enough not mess up things, and blended quite well.

In that room we have 3 different bass solutons working toghether,  2 ten inch pro woofers per side from 140 hz down to fs cutoff (around 45 hz) sealed enclosures, and a pair of 15" servo controlled subwoofers one per side  taking it from 50 hz.  And well the tapped horns, that add a nice punch to it all.

The big problem with this setup is time aligning everything, or finding the correct phase for all the bass drivers: If something is not perfectly in sync,  the woofers start fighting each other and you get a real mess!  We found out once that by lowering the volume of one channel we got more bass output!!!  Something was clearly wrong!

But when they all work toghether, it is very good!

This is why I would go for just one bass solution from your midbass roof horn cutoff, down to what 15 hz!

The Gas solution looks pretty good and I for one would be very interested in seeing how it comes to life!  But frankly, having all that space below just yells for an IB.

10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 133
Post ID: 17243
Reply to: 17242
ULF from the SledgeHammer
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have also a fondness for this design which may well suit your room with the line sunk in your basement. It is interesting that this design makes use of two woofers in push-pull configuration as well as making use of a transmission line. The only transmission line I have had, an IMF RSPM reference put me off slightly, as although it had very low bass, it sounded bloated and muffled. Nonetheless this is a design that goes back many decades and I believe it must be possible to achieve better solutions nowadays, see the following for what looks like a promising attempt (I call it The SledgeHammer because of its shape):

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/subs/subs.html

 Jorge wrote:
 

In that room we have 3 different bass solutons working toghether,  2 ten inch pro woofers per side from 140 hz down to fs cutoff (around 45 hz) sealed enclosures, and a pair of 15" servo controlled subwoofers one per side  taking it from 50 hz.  And well the tapped horns, that add a nice punch to it all.

The big problem with this setup is time aligning everything, or finding the correct phase for all the bass drivers: If something is not perfectly in sync,  the woofers start fighting each other and you get a real mess!  We found out once that by lowering the volume of one channel we got more bass output!!!  Something was clearly wrong!



Jorge, I wonder how you actually use the two ten inch woofers. Is it a push-pull configuration with one facing out and the other pointing inside the enclosure? So what frequency range do the tapped horns provide, and do they overlap with the 15" subs?

Best regards
Rakesh
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 134
Post ID: 17244
Reply to: 17243
Why not really use the basement
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think you should investigate a transmission line subterranean woofer system. One tuned for 8 Hz and turned off at 28 Hz. That way you could use your beloved lite weight drivers where they are most useful and a super woofer with XBL magnet structure as the slant plane transmission line driver. You will not get clearer or more textured bass out of any other structural type. I suggest this because TL's bypass your hated boing-a-boing-a-boing bass from typical reinforcement resonators. Plus I know how fanatical you are about transient speed and a TL will keep up with the rest of your system.

You can also EnABL your room to enhance the focus and transient attack of airborne bass notes with simple to apply patterns in the corners of the room.

Bud
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 135
Post ID: 17245
Reply to: 17242
Never say never
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
 I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump,

I have tried the same solution in a big room, the thing is that we not only got output at 25 hz, but a lot also at 50 hz! There was no way surgically cut it to what we needed and the result was it messed everything up. 
Jorge, I would leave your comment that there is “no way surgically cut it to what we needed” free for interpretation.” Anything can be done if person knows what he wants. Remind you that under 50Hz there is very difficult to generalize anything. You need to deal with given specific results, recognize and interpret the results and navigate sound to where you feel it has to be. You were in my old room and any audio-sane person that in that room it is impossible to get interesting bass. I think it was interesting, if so then why do you feel that in my new room I had settled for less interesting sound?

A few comments in context of your post. At sub 50Hz bass in not frequency but cloud. You cannot say that it is 43Hz unless you VERY much familiar with the sound of this given room at given location. So, I treat the conversation about sub 50Hz sound with some numeric abstractedness and roundness. Also, when I said about my bump I mentioned the location of the pitch but I did not said anything about the steepness of the bump. Of cause it has some spread to 50Hz but I would like remind you that I play much more delicate game. In addition to all bass requirement I have my midbass horn back-and-above and I need to let the ULF channels to inject some overtones from front. This effectively defeat the whole concept of ULF, converting it to regular LF but I use some tricks – my ULF are sitting at low end transition slope. The Midbass run down to 42Hz and ULF sits at 20Hz crossover. Then I add volume to ULF, making it sonically to sound properly, filling the small gap between 42Hz - 20Hz. So, for my midbass channel my ULF channels act as regular bass but for the rest of the system they act as pure ULF as it has more output at sub auditable region then regular bass channel would have, this what transition slope does. Add to this the defined using of non-symmetrical filters for right and left channels you might get a feeling that the LF I get in here is very much not accidental but very well controlled. I have very little accidental events in my Sound.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 136
Post ID: 17338
Reply to: 14457
How good ULF needs to be?
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is very interesting question. I do not know a lot of people with whom I might collaborate it as very few run ULF channels. Most of time people run just bass channels. It is my experience that whenever audio people talk or think about the lowest bass then they are talking in reality about 40-60Hz. The ULF in sub 25Hz is not well known. It is not the most of the acoustic systems are not able to handle it but rather about that fact the if it is not ULF then the sub 25Hz is not being delivered properly in listening position.

Anyhow, I looking at the debate about ULF that took place at this site: big driver, small drivers, open baffle, ULF DSET and etc, etc, etc I am asking myself question: how  good ULF need to be? The question is simple but the answer is not. If I shut down Macondo and run only ULF channels at FULL power then I have some kind of sound that not truly sound at all. It is 3 and 4 order at 20Hz – there is so little significant information in there! Sure the impact of the ULF is very meaningful but I wonder if in place of my ULF would be 10 times worse sections but still in proper configuration then would they do the job?

A local audio guy just replaced his woofer towers with some kind of pair of JL Audio Fathom F 113 active subwoofers and he reports that he like the result better. Since he use 50Hz horn I presume that he crosses somewhere at 35-40Hz region. I was not a big fan of his former lower bass but I did not associate it with his hardware but rather with setup factors. I did not hear his new bass solution but he put his Fathoms in time-align position – only this got to make difference to my ears.  The point I am trying to make is that we all know that those little fart-machine do not work for bass as audio people know it, means 40-60Hz. However, can those fart machines be more interesting at 20hz?

I keep thinking about it not because I am frustrated with my ULF. My ULF channels perform very well and I am perfectly comfortable with their sound. I am not comfortable with the amount of efforts it takes to accomplish it and I wonder if considering my very 20Hz crossover point I can go away with much less demanding solution. I for sure will not settle with less interesting sound from my ULF but the biggest question is if the fart-machine ULF at 20Hz will be less interesting. I do not have an answer to this question.

In the end I do not mind to try. If some of your have a pair or very good fart-machines then I would like to too offer my listening room and my current setup for an experiment to study how well fart-machines can do in ULF setting. So, bring them in and let see how at all work. I would be in particularly interested in older model of a British REL Reference series…

Who knows….
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 137
Post ID: 17339
Reply to: 17338
How good the user needs to be?
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is some literature available online which looks at how to obtain good bass in a room using more than one subwoofer, which should be of interest to anyone thinking of trying the path you are suggesting, even though the writers were thinking in part in terms of multi-channel sound for home theatres. I found these very interesting when I read these a few years ago and promised to myself that I would experiment with the methods advocated someday. I am taking the liberty of linking the two papers that I found most interesting below:

How many subwoofers? Todd Welti http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

 Getting The bass right. Floyd E.Toole
 http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf


Unfortunately, this kind of very empirical and iterative approach may well be beyond the ability and resources of many. 

Best regards
Rakesh
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 138
Post ID: 17340
Reply to: 17339
Maybe . . .
fiogf49gjkf0d
 . . .but the angle of the study / conclusions likely are slanted to support Harman's marketing effort to sell more gear. That was my take-away when I read them a while back. 
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 139
Post ID: 17341
Reply to: 17340
I think there is little evidence of marketing bias in the papers. Call me naive if you wish.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Scooter,

You may be right. Harman is a big international organisation which obviously seeks to profit from its marketing effort as well as from research conducted and papers written by its employees. But call me naive if you wish, I do not agree with your view and do not think there is a heavy marketing bias in these papers. Maybe you might point out where you find such evidence?

If you read the papers carefully, a number of inferences can be drawn which suggest that they are not predicating a specific solution for all situations but rather a well-considered and step-by-step approach to the problems one faces in aiming for good bass. There seems to be little evidence that the writers advocate a single approach that fits all situations. On the contrary, there is a sustained emphasis on a need to understand, study, come up with some strategies and experiment again. I do not see anything offensive about this approach. Do you?

It made me think of what I could achieve in my room with any subwoofers I may happen to have at hand, not look for my nearest Harman Kardon retailer for some Harman Kardon branded subwoofers. The papers help dispel quite a few erroneous notions based on faulty science very often forced on the poor hapless punter by professionals of all ilk and not a few forum contributors, again not necessarily Harman Kardon denominated. More dangerous than simply denouncing the research of professionals within the audio industry simply because they are in that industry is to rely too heavily on the haphasard blundering and speculation that we see ample evidence of on countless online forums, and posters who use one-liners to drip skepticism because there is really not that much else they are willing to or can contribute to a discussion.

Best regards
Rakesh
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 140
Post ID: 17343
Reply to: 17338
Narrow [Band] Tuning (DSP?)
fiogf49gjkf0d
When we were chasing this same (or very similar...) shadow and spinning the same (or very similar...) wheels a while back, I suggested DSP EQ for this, and sane people responded with thoughtful ideas on the subject.  The better RELs have always been relatively easy to integrate, and it may well be that REL has joined the crowd gone digital by now. It would not surprise me at all.  Anyway, I think careful locating and close tuning are necessary at ULF.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 141
Post ID: 17538
Reply to: 14457
ULF-only Sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
This week two audio persons visited me. Both of them experimenting with loudspeakers of own design and during their visit I discounted my Macondo channels and demonstrated to then the contribution of the each channel to Macondo Sound. Both of them did praised my bass and both of them got completely flabbergasted when I disconnect the main Macondo channel and let just ULF channels to play at reference volume. It need to be seen the people sitting in my listening chair, looking at me questionably and not getting the the complete silence they hear is the way how my ULF are working. Well, this is how 20Hz ULF shall work. Listening the Macondo with and without ULF they have no doubt about the benefit ULF but to hear ULF-only working for a first time it, I have to admit, a bit bizarre feeling.  As now, having some experience playing with it, I can to listed ULF-only and be able to say something about the sound, including prediction how it might sound with the rest of playback. To hear the ULF only for a first time is still more like trip to circus during your 5th birthday.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 142
Post ID: 17572
Reply to: 14457
An easy ULF solution for someone.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am usually not a big fun of somebody refer to eBay Items and I myself do it very seldom. Still, here I am as I think it is an interesting deal for someone. There is a guy out there that is damping a few of Aura RS-8.1 bass modules.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310366786386?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/AuraSub_1808.pdf

They are Aura 1808 drivers in already built-in, accurate and nice looking enclosures. The price I think is reasonable for the pair of the boxes and since they are in crates then it will be assurance that they will be delivered in pristine shape. The guy will ship, I spoke with him. Use tracking freight service and ship on pallets if you go for it.

What I find is interesting in that that for $1.5K somebody will have right out of shelf, ready to go ULF channels with very good drivers. Do not think that you will be able to run them to 100Hz. Well, sure you will be able to but if you like THAT sound then you is a deaf Moron. This configuration is not for bass generally but for sub 30Hz bass. Also, they are ported, so do not do fantasize about midbass from those woofers.

If you have 40Hz-60Hz horn then you might play with Aura RS-8.1 bass modules and it is possible that it will do very well, crossing them at let say 30-35Hz and to have pain-free and none expensive implementation. I do not know how good the boxes constructed, I do not know if the ports are re-tunable, in fact I do not know anything about them but frankly if I had space for them than I would try them myself. All investment that needs to be done is to replacement the red front grill with black fabric and it is under $10. I do not want to use this configuration in my room – 22” wide it too wide for me, otherwise I would bite it.

Anyhow, whoever is interested – it is all your. Since the guy has a lot of them he might be flexible in price and if you can pick them up than I am sure he will be more accommodating. If you get them then post how you employ them and how they sound.

Good luck, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 143
Post ID: 17574
Reply to: 17572
Red Grills
fiogf49gjkf0d
In the Christmas Spirit, a couple of notes in passing:

1) These units might need a LOT of power to make ULF in those cases...

B) "Conventions in Vegas" re: pro speakers = "Little  Old Lady From Pasadena" re: used cars.


Paul S
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 144
Post ID: 17575
Reply to: 17574
It is exactly what I would like to avoid.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
In the Christmas Spirit, a couple of notes in passing:

1) These units might need a LOT of power to make ULF in those cases...

B) "Conventions in Vegas" re: pro speakers = "Little  Old Lady From Pasadena" re: used cars.
What I would like to avoid is stating at my site to discuss the eBay listing as purchasing items. The information about the Aura woofers was proposed as topological opportunity, nothing else.  It is possible that somebody would like to build the similar enclosure only with slightly different shape to best accommodate the specific room. In think care the ready to go Aura boxed might act as a good and easy pilot project.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 145
Post ID: 17874
Reply to: 17575
So I took your advice
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I thought I'd let you know that I ordered four of those Aura subs. Thanks for the advice, if I receive them (I hope so), I will install them into my new listening room. This will take a while because I still have a few months away from completing the construction and moving in, but as soon as this happens I will post my findings. My expectations are not set too high, as I was initially planning on building vertical arrays with eight 12" vifa NE bass drivers per side but the ready made Aura solution seemed more practical. We'll see...
Gera
02-22-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 146
Post ID: 17875
Reply to: 17874
Ok, let me know how it goes.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 noviygera wrote:
I thought I'd let you know that I ordered four of those Aura subs. Thanks for the advice, if I receive them (I hope so), I will install them into my new listening room. This will take a while because I still have a few months away from completing the construction and moving in, but as soon as this happens I will post my findings. My expectations are not set too high, as I was initially planning on building vertical arrays with eight 12" vifa NE bass drivers per side but the ready made Aura solution seemed more practical. We'll see...

Yep, it is interesting how you find them. I need to warn you however, that most frequently people who follow my advise in audio do end up with disappointments as they foolishly feel that following somebody’s path eliminates a need for them to spend own efforts. Anyhow, for all intended purposes I think you got a very good deal.  I pay for my Auras $500-$700 each and it was 10 years back. You got your for $1400, including the boxes and shipping crates – not bad at all. In addition it is my observation that the drivers installed in enclosure are generally in better shape then those that lived non-mounted.

When you get the speaker you would wan to rotate then 180 degree and to break them in a little. Put the speaker face to face, let say 3-4 inch apart, wire then in opposite phase, and driver write noise through then for a few days. Do not overcook them and do not get too loud, user moderate volume. This will softer the suspension for 5-15Hz.

You will need to fine a right power amp to drive them. The power amp type that I use for my ULF I would not user for your Auras, particularly if you have more or less large room at LF. You would need a high current amp able to deal with reverse current and with impedance dive that will coming from that very strong motor when the cabinet port hit its resonance. Also, please, do acknowledge my experience about the crossover – it is very important.  If you remember I did not like at all the harmonics of my bass when I went line level with my SS driving my ULF. I did like the result and it is what I use now when I put a tube crossover into the game. So, the conclusion that I made for a long time ago is that SS can’t drive bass – it has shape but it has no taste or smell. In my case I used the 2-tubes 12AX7 crossover to override with own distortions the tonal impotence of my SS bass amp. The best would be of cause to has a good tube DSET with ultra low output impedance to drive your Auras but good lack to find 250-400W DSET.

Do not even attempt to use them over 35-40Hz. They will work but they will sound not good. Those drivers are 30Hz solution with sharp filter and it is where they need to be used. You might experiment with closing the port.  Aura must be used in sealed box and the ported solution is not good no matter what. For the sealed box you will need 12 cub feet and up. I heard contradictory comments about it and I do not have my own opinion about it. If I did it I would go with 18-20 cub feet but do not hold me labile.

I do not know how and in context of what you will be using them but it for sure interesting to hear your findings.  It would be even more fun if you make them to work and then come to hear my ULF – I need somebody to evaluate my ULF solution and let me know if use of my 18 incher that I have sitting in basemen would do any difference for me. It is not that I can’t try myself but I would like to blame somebody if I do not like them

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-07-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 147
Post ID: 17918
Reply to: 14457
The ULF amp Itch.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nope, I do not have the itch with ULF sound but I do have a mild itch with ULF concept. The itch is not strong enough to make me to do something but I would like another day to push the boundary of reality and to see what in behind the rabbit hole. Let me to explain.

I have very good bass and ULF and everything else at the bottom. If I have any strong objection then I would make me to do something but I do not have any objections and this prevents me from look into the subject further. Still, I do have a desirer to see how ULF would be different if it was driven by different means. I drive my ULF by SS A/B amp. It is fully DC coupled amp with very good bass and if you remember when I use is with line level passive filer I complained that I did not like the bass.  I do not know if it is my power amps is particularly shitty of anything else but the excuse that I use is that SS can’t produce good bass anyhow. At least I never was able to hear any good bass from SS.

So, if you remember I put a two stage tube capacitance-coupled crossover before my SS power amp and claimed that I got the bass that I was looking. I well understand that I in a way injected into the signal the 2 order harmonic distortion from tubes but whatever I found the result was fine. Now, from purely conceptual and non-compromise point of view of cause the ULF has to be driven by tube amp. With my room I need approximately 150-200W of SS power. To get the same damping of my woofer towers with ultra low out impedance from tubes I would need to burn a LOT of power in transformer, so I guess I would need 400W of tube power.  To have a gaped DSET OPT transformer that will care 400W down to 5Hz let say it will be a monster with core of barrel size to build up inductance. I am not talking about the output tube that would be a high voltage monster….

I am well informed about the insane price and effort to put two of those monoblocks together and I will not do it, in particularly knowing that my ULF kicks at 20Hz. Still, I would LOVE to hear it and to make a judgment it make any auditable difference… I know that it will be no commercially available to borrow from somebody DSET for ULF, so it is possible that the question will never have an answer. Still, I would love to…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 148
Post ID: 25104
Reply to: 17918
Here is an update for the old thread....
The new IB with Macondo....

IB_FirstTest.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 149
Post ID: 25106
Reply to: 25104
Good highs
Yep, the IB sub does it's job, as I expected because I had an IB sub in my previous listening room. I think you will really like the bass of this configuration because from my past experience -- there is nothing as good as IB sub for low bass, for long term listening sessions. IB is natural bass with natural decay.
But I want to make a comment on something more important. The high frequency response you have above 7k. I think this is a fantastic response curve for a good sound system. There is nothing as annoying as a flat high frequency response. Perhaps the only more annoying sonic experience is a tilted up freq response above 8k. Any system with dignity should have a tilted down response, like you have and I applaud your taste in sound for this reason alone.
As I mentioned in my last post on this site, the only way to get good sound out of TAD 2002 driver is a 6db low pass filter above 12k. That reflects your measured system response, somewhat.
Gera


04-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RLRB
Posts 1
Joined on 04-11-2021

Post #: 150
Post ID: 26103
Reply to: 16208
Marchand
 Romy the Cat wrote:
fiogf49gjkf0dI am observing an interesting and surprising fact – I am begging to like my active Marchand crossover. I did a number of modifications to it and it looks like the parts are broken-in now – it does sound very pleasant for my ULF. I feel it is a bit too soft then I would like to have in my final version and I will go for line-level passive what my second B2 will be fixed but this slightly tweaked Marchand today showed off some spectacular result.  

I had today a VERY interesting Erotica’s funeral march, played with so much complexity that I thought that Marchand will lose it. To my surprise the Marchand show off very extravagant ULF sound. The slight of softness of Marchand tubes combined with very idiosyncratic bass of old Brunswick orchestra made some spectacular sounds, truly addictive…

Marchand X26.JPG

Who knows, if to spend some attention to this active crossover, perhaps to put better tubes in then it might be a nice devise to use all time. The way how delicate it opens notes is still in my head….

The Cat
Hello, i have a Marchand xm26, my system is Oris 150 with Aer bd3 and 2x15 ripoles, pset 2A3 for fullrange and ss for bass.Would be a good idea to replace output tube for ecc81? The caps has been replaced for mundorf and duelund in bypass.The idea is to use input and xover tubes with ecc83 and replace last tube.Thanks
Page 6 of 7 (151 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 3 4 5 6 7 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  151809  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  63208  05-18-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  687068  07-29-2007
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2157744  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2995773  05-20-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18226  10-08-2010
  »  New  Bass impact on Turntable: how to estimate objectively..  I have done some work on this in the past....  Analog Playback Forum     4  47904  11-01-2010
  »  New  The meaning of lowest octave...  Vibrational bass...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  24675  05-18-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Danley DTS-20....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  693830  04-23-2009
  »  New  Monophonic bass: myth and reality...  I do not think so but I am OK with it....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  47111  04-17-2011
  »  New  The BEST bass cable?..  Dialectic biased cable....  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  45318  04-22-2011
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  15152  04-24-2011
  »  New  Getting more power from SET vs. properly distorting SS...  Sound Board...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  49656  05-09-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  129161  06-13-2011
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  488819  04-28-2009
  »  New  A slightly crazy idea for a new approach to LF..  I do like it conceptually......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  24681  03-30-2005
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  890399  08-12-2015
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  The Organic Bass vs. ULF Drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     43  133018  07-29-2018
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts