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05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 26
Post ID: 23213
Reply to: 23212
Had it ;)
hi! Funny... i just passed it in Munich yesterday. Now its mentioned here. Of course i had to stop and have a listen with such cool look. Sorry to tell you, that things a imposter. I left in less than five minutes. It hurts my ears. Totally cold, sharp, harsh sound. Very quaking trumpet sound. And most strange was that you could all the time clearly hear the speaker position. Like the stage didn't want to solve from the speaker. Id almost say that a standard 500 bucks PA pro cube for concerts could compeed. I sometimes wonder what's in the head of such developers, seriously. 
I was just happy i could finish the day passing "silbatone". Their SETs are wonderful. Driving the old WE cinema installation with the dual 18" basshorn, back open. Dual mid compression drivers in multi cell horn, small tweeter on top, 80 years old originally with all field coil. 
THAT was by far one of the best things I've heard in my life. And funnily by far the best of the whole show!!
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 27
Post ID: 23214
Reply to: 23213
Avaton in Munich
In case there's any confusion, it was the Avatons in Munich (and not the Animas). I took a good listen to them on Friday, and wasn't overly impressed. I spent a long time there yesterday though and thought they sounded better than anything else I'd heard at the show (including the WEs, which were my favourites up until then), but only with certain recordings. I agree that with some recordings they could sound a bit sharp. But at least they had some life, unlike most of the other systems I heard there. The WE was very nice, but lacked some 'kick' in my opinion. But hey, great for an 85 year-old pair of speakers!
Back home now, I'm listening to my Animas (driven by my new Thoress monos with Elrog 300B tubes), and have to say that I wouldn't change them for any other speakers I heard in Munich, including the Avatons.
Mani.
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,279
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 28
Post ID: 23215
Reply to: 23213
Ok, let analyze it.
Martinshorn , that for feedback, as I always preach: the bad result during audio show does not mean anything, only good results count. You see, there are zillion reason why during the show the sound might be horrible. The inadequacy of the people who host the room usually is the most deterministic factor. So, in most instances a bed result is accidental and does not necessarily reflects the design problems. A great result, if it happens take place during the should is also might be accidental but it also always a reflection of great capacity of the given audio element.
   
Anyhow, let analyze what Avaton is and let try to forecast the sound based upon design. As I said I love the idea to match the dimensions/shape of upper-bass horn mouth with bass module. I think this is very elegant. However, the esthetical appeals of the concept does not address the fundamental design problem. Let pretend that upper-bass horn goes down to 65Hz, it means that bass module runs up there, with first order filter it much stop much sooner, let say 45-50 Hz. My initial sentiment was that it would be so fashionable nowadays taped horn but they did better and made bottom-firing enclosure with whatever Virtual Mouth technology the claim. There is a problem with this. First of all there is no way they can get 105dB sensitivity in this design with no equalization, absolutely impossible.  If they had an amp in there properly play with amp gain, driver load and EQ then they can match the 105dB sensitivity of the rest channels but they claim that the system is completely passive. In some cases, if the room is very lucky, you can get some room gain and to get mold yield from such a bass enclosure but it is very unpredictable. For sure during the Munich show the “cold, sharp, harsh sound” you hear was a typical underperformance of the bass channel, and most likely the bottom end of mi-bass channel. Now is the ugliest thing of the all: the way how Avaton is designed if you find yourself in the situation that your room does not work for the speaker there is absolutely nothing you can do. The mi-bass directly firing in your face will not change own character of sound and acoustic output. The same goes to the bottom-firing passive “horn” with no equalization. 
 
The above is very much contradicting to my principles how I feel the playback should be build. In my view, anything under 200Hz should be super agile and the sonic out should be shape in accordance to the room specific. The believe that one could take 2 passive bass horns, dump them anywhere and to get great sound is just a foolishness in my view. 
 
There is another aspect of the Avaton that I do not like. The 1” driver for upper range. Most of the 1” compression drivers are quite bad and they do not have lush and rich harmonics compare to the larger drivers. In case of Avaton they used 1” driver with a 6dB crossover, which is very questionable. The horns look like 500Hz it means they can cross at let say 1000Hz. The 1” drivers like Altec 808 can work at 1K with first order but not so great. The key of use first order is that driver can very confidently to work good at least 2 octaves out of the crossover point. The 808 drives are near OK for second order at 800Hz, so in my view the 1000Hz and firs order is a bit stretch. They of cause could come up with own driver that is better suited for the given operation but if I were in this place I would go for a driver with a larger diaphragm and 2” exit, mounting is outside of the horn. BTW, the larger driver might be mounted outside of the horn then there is no problem to slide it back… 
 
Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 29
Post ID: 23216
Reply to: 23215
Agree and disagree
hi Romy
I agree with the technical design issues. Though i experienced that for most modest domestic dynamics first order xover can work surprisingly acceptable.
Also agree with bad impression of exhibition experiences are steered by many factors and such circumstances are far from ideal. This applies especially to microdetails, resolution, and relaxed playing. Because of the noise. Also the lows where most cases boomy, wet, unprecise due to room issues. 
But i relaxed before, trained my ear on some standard playlists i was sure they'll play (and they often did), so that i felt comfortable with most judgment to certain degree. 
This also applies to the shout and harshness i noticed. Take it for granted, it was there! Totally colored. Not acceptable. Many had this similar surprisingly. Others confirmed the same later. No coincidence. 
Josh 
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 30
Post ID: 23217
Reply to: 23216
Different strokes...
 martinshorn wrote:
Take it for granted, it was there! Totally colored. Not acceptable. Many had this similar surprisingly. Others confirmed the same later. No coincidence.
Ahem... so was I... and in the Tune Audio room for a much longer period of time, by the sound of it!

During my time there, there were certainly some tracks that had instruments projected more 'forward' than perhaps one would like, but overall, it was the most realistic, life-like sound at the show... to my ears. Some instruments can sound a little shrill in reality, and I'd rather hear everything than have a nice-but-ever-so-slightly-washed-out sound. Especially the 'texture' of the instruments - in the majority of the rooms, there was little or no texture to anything.

There was a 30 minute or so stint, covering a few tracks, where the seats were all taken (I had a centre seat) and no-one left. Everyone in the room was enjoying the music too much. A quick chat afterwards, and it seemed we all agreed on 'the best sound at show'.

Oh well, everyone to their own...

Mani.
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 219
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 31
Post ID: 23218
Reply to: 23217
I feel Avaton is unfinished.
With that big horn covering such large frequency range I feel there would have a hole in the mid-range, or in the upper-bass. Not that I am supposing the information is not there, but it should not to be in there with reasonable "quality".

I had not in Munich and of course did not listen to it, but somehow I feel they launched an unfinished product. I think the Avaton should gain one more channel at some point. Maybe two.

Looking on the reasonable care Tune Audio took to create Anima - and the publicity it bring to them, I do not think they would create a new "flagship" not following at least the same care they took before. And, why do create a very different product than Anima and still stick with three ways? Would be better/easier to simple make a "bigger" Anima then.

If I am right about the premature launch, that certainly was a commercial decision due to some eventual delay in the design process. And so, if they already has a unfinished product but good enough to be present in Munich, why not - or why lost the opportunity? There are tons of finished crap products everywhere, and a lot of people buy it.

The Tune Audio owner/designer already posted on this thread before, maybe he come back later to say something.

EDIT: would also be interesting if Tune Audio could have matching sealed sub-woofers as option too (all their products), even if not too marketered (Tune Audio is a "horn" company).

(IMHO) Such small companies cannot lost the opportunity to sell a product (bass-horns) because the customer want sub-woofers instead, and then let them find it (sub-woofers) somewhere else instead of have it ready provide.

Cheers!


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 32
Post ID: 23219
Reply to: 23218
Perhaps Manolis will chime in at some point
Great points.

I'll just reiterate that I heard the Avatons on Friday and was underwhelmed. Heard them again on Saturday, and heard some real magic... with certain tracks. At this level, this sort of inconsistency obviously needs to be ironed out.

Hopefully Manolis will chime in at some point.

Meanwhile, I remain very happy with my Animas - I really couldn't ask for more from a commercially-available speaker that requires little expert knowledge to set up and get a very engaging sound from.

Mani.
05-22-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,279
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 33
Post ID: 23220
Reply to: 23218
I wish the TuneAudio stay with whatever subs they do.
 xandcg wrote:
EDIT: would also be interesting if Tune Audio could have matching sealed sub-woofers as option too (all their products), even if not too marketered (Tune Audio is a "horn" company).

Even though I usually very much advocate a sealed line-array (with proper drivers only) as a compliment to horns (as I feel this combination works very well) but I would not like to see the Tune Audio goes this way. The bass idea that they went after: a tall, bottom firing “horn” enclosure with small footprint I file is very interesting direction. Just think about the Dr. Edgar’s refrigerator subs. With all ugliness of appearance the refrigerator subs work very well. They should not be but they do. If the Tune Audio somehow fine a way to package it a much smaller footprint then it is good for them. I have my suspicions as the calm passive, not EQ design that I feel is impossible in the given topology but perhaps then know something that I do not.
 
Frankly I do not feel that it is even necessary for manufactures to produce large sealed sub-woofers. They are very simple to do locally and I think the manufactures shall sell kits for local carpenters to do them. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 34
Post ID: 26798
Reply to: 23220
Sealed subs

I finally got around to augmenting my Animas with 4x passive subs (built by a local guy):



The specs for each sub are as follows:

- 91L sealed enclosure
- 1x 12" driver (blended wood pulp, 19Hz fs)
- no internal crossovers
- 25mm MDF
- 37Kg

Here's how the subs look alongside my Animas:

 

The system chain is as follows:

- PC with Roon Core (global volume, crossover filters, channel level-matching and driver time-alignment all done here at 64bit precision) -> ethernet

- PC/streamer with RoonBridge -> USB

- Okto dac8PRO 8-channel DAC (for 2x 4-way) -> balanced XLR

- Sealed subs: low-passed @ 70Hz using 36dB/octave filter in DSP -> 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps

- Upper-bass horn: band-passed 70Hz-500Hz using 24dB/octave filter in DSP -> 2x Neurochrome 286 amps

- Mid-horn: band-passed 500Hz-1000Hz using 24dB/octave filter in DSP -> 2x Neurochrome 286 amps

- High-horn: high-passed @ 1000Hz using 24dB/octave filter in DSP -> 2x Neurochrome 286 amps

The main objective was to relieve the upper-bass driver of having to perform near its 32Hz fs. This has resulted in a far more melodic and tuneful upper-bass sound, which I really like. And of course, an extra octave has been added to the bottom end by the subs themselves, which is nice.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the results.

Mani.
Page 2 of 2 (34 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The most interesting horn ideas to me so far..  Looking for best horn values...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  54741  04-30-2007
  »  New  The Ridiculous Japa-Brazilian horn. ..  I think you are misting the other side of the picture....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     54  419151  03-02-2007
  »  New  The state of High-Efficiency Loudspeakers...  Tom Danley’s brilliant law...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  91945  02-25-2009
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Amplifier Speaker Matching...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     231  1857881  12-06-2006
  »  New  Aries Cerat Contendo - the newest "fat" kid i..  It is very unfortunate then...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  54413  09-08-2011
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