drdna wrote:

Well, You really need to figure out what you want out of your speakers.  There are some questions I would ask myself if I were in your position: 1.   You can eliminate a lot of speakers based on their size, since they should be matched to the size of your room and your style of listening (near field, etc). I move out often so the room can't be taken into consideration, and nearfield give me headache, i always live in falts with enough space. 2.   When you recall the speakers you've listened to so far, apparently you were not happy.  What was the source of your dissatisfaction with each speaker?  You should then seek out speakers designed specifically to address these shortcomings.  This is pretty important since every speaker is an exercise in design compromise.  You have to decide what sort of compromise you can live with. If i had the money iwould have took the avalon ISIS : perfection of neutrality, texture, tone....70 000$ (!) I like ultra natural speakers, neutral, ultra precise in the imaging, very analytical. 3.   What kind of music do you listen to?  How loud do you listen?  Different speaker designs are going to be variably euphonic in different ways in different situations.  You want the type that suits your music best. Wide variety of music : experimental to alternative rock to classical -and a good speaker can play every kind of music i think- 4.   What about your other electronics?  Certain speakers just won't work with certain electronics. I have sold all my previous equipement! and the only thing i'm sure to buy is a shindo preamp (i recently discover them and they are just amazing) 5.   Some speakers may just be too ugly looking for you or your wife to consider. I'm single and even so it will never influence my decision. 6.   Of the remaining speakers, which ones can you listen to personally?  Metaxas may make some damn fine electrostatic panels, but since he's in Australia, I'm not going to buy one.  You should always be able to listen to the speakers you are planning to buy.Totally agree...

malinowski wrote:

Jazz modules off the shelf for for  under 10k id look at these. $4k.. and very interesting. inconsistent with the "rules" Romy has set forth for us... but then if you really want to go the route of the cat you'll need to abandon commercial speakers and give yourself a few years to develop a system... with humility and a lot of trial and error.. anyhow.. for what you like to listen to and for your room issues.. the jazz modulus might be all you need... a good deal for a "commercial" system although.. i doub't anyone one would consider duke (the maker) a commercial producer...nevertheless a very interesting and helpful guy who's very smart too. now.. this thread reminds me of something from the other forums... feeling dirty for having succumbed to resopnding.. but ill send anyhow but clarify.. the best advice id have is to read the threads here over and over, avoid the hype of labels and diy gimmics and start thinking about what and why and how you want to listen. then start making it happen piece by piece. don't expect to get there all at once... whats the fun in that anyhow?

Well, I'll stick my neck out and tell you what I think.  I would say that it sounds right now that you have a kind of undefined idea of how you understand the sounds of audio reproduction.  Sort of on the level that you know that you like something that is like a super stereo, a definite step up from Circuit City, but cannot really put your finger on anything like the 200-250 Hz region, the off angle response, the time alignment, or anything like that specifically.  You have maybe heard a lot of buzz words like soundstage, inner detail, and finely etched accuracy and you kind of understand what these mean; you can relate it to your listening experience.  And that is about the level things are on. 

Is that a fair estimate? 

So then you are at the beginning of starting to understand.

Well, I can go on and on and talk about how I could not give a recommendation for a speaker; it would be impossible.  But then again I can relate to your experience and I think if I put myself in your shoes I would give a listen to these speakers:

EdgarHorn SlimLine:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0300/edgarhornslimline.htm
http://www.edgarhorn.com/
AudioPhysic Scorpio:
http://www.audiophysic.de/index_e.html
http://www.soundbysinger.com/speakerff3.html
Ikonoclast 7:
http://www.warrengregoire.com/hifi-stereo-ikonoklast7.htm

 These speakers may be the ultimate for you and you may be happy for many years, or they may be the beginning that sparks the deconstruction of how you understand sound.  Who knows.  But I would bet you'll enjoy the way they make music, from what you've said about yourself.

Audio Physic, Edgarhorn,

samuel33 wrote:

"...I just ask some path to follow at first because i need urgently speakers... I compose music and i need quite quickly some speakers to work with.

samuel33 wrote:

…. I can't stop laughing when I read your comments about the audiophile mafia, you are so right.

Samuel, it is important, reading my self-obsessive rage about the industry, do not take the things out of perspective. I never called the Audio Industry as a mafia. Mafia is a well organized and perfectly sane operation that subordinated to a purpose and intend. The Audio Industry is NOT purposeful or resolute organization and to call it mafia would be to extent too much credit to the Audio Industry.

samuel33 wrote:

Between mike Lavigne with his dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel obsession and the TAS 'mini2/kharma nevrose there no more place for anything else...

There is a huge space. The Mike Lavigne types is all about the syndrome of just brutally raped women who asked to read a lecture about discrimination of male coworkers at their work place. She kind of understands that her person experiences are not indicative, at least for the subject of the lecture, but she can not help it.

samuel33 wrote:

I just want to ask you, which are the 5 or 10 speakers -10 000/30 000$- that intresting to listen at.

“Interesting to listen?” That is a loaded comment. Speakers do not have own sound. The Sound of loudspeakers is not what they produce but what we hear. In this context the “interesting to listen” category more describes your listening intents then a capacity of a given acoustic system….

samuel33 wrote:

There are so many speakers and  so  bad information about their real value .... it can be helpful for a lot of people to begin their listening session with good speakers, don't you think?

Samuel, I do not provide recommendations regarding the navigation in the audio swamp, there are many reasons why. As an experience person, I might assure that anything worthy in this subject you will discover from within.

samuel33 wrote:

I compose music and i need quite quickly some speakers to work with.

Why don’t you use the listening techniques that have been employing for years and that I call the “Lenin’s techniques”? I do not know how true it is – I heard that story in my childhood and it very much might be a BS as anything else was told about Lenin in my childhood. However those “Lenin’s techniques” are the techniques that I widely employ in audio assessments.

Vladimir Lenin spoke 20 or so languages but did not speak Greek (for instance). Once he was informed that one of his articles was translated to Greek and the publisher sent him a copy to confirm if the translation was done accurately. Lenin know however, that when he wrote the original article then in his manuscript he screwed up some numbers, referring to a year of a famous historical event and it was consequentially reprinted in many other languages with wrong numbers. Lenin took the Greek translation, glanced to the referring year, which was corrected, and reply to the publisher: “The translation was made accurately”. In this little story I recognize in hidden the core of proper audio assessment….

Wojtek wrote:

These are not speakers but ear scratchers ,they may however fit Samuel's expectations. Actually from description of required performance almost every Hi-End speaker should fit the bill so I don't understand where is the problem ? If the speaker will serve also as a work tool why not buy a Studio monitor ;Tannoy, Yamaha , Dynaudio  ,ATC ?? Regards, W

drdna wrote:

Well, I'll stick my neck out and tell you what I think.  I would say that it sounds right now that you have a kind of undefined idea of how you understand the sounds of audio reproduction.  Sort of on the level that you know that you like something that is like a super stereo, a definite step up from Circuit City, but cannot really put your finger on anything like the 200-250 Hz region, the off angle response, the time alignment, or anything like that specifically.  You have maybe heard a lot of buzz words like soundstage, inner detail, and finely etched accuracy and you kind of understand what these mean; you can relate it to your listening experience.  And that is about the level things are on.  Is that a fair estimate?  So then you are at the beginning of starting to understand. Well, I can go on and on and talk about how I could not give a recommendation for a speaker; it would be impossible.  But then again I can relate to your experience and I think if I put myself in your shoes I would give a listen to these speakers: EdgarHorn SlimLine: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0300/edgarhornslimline.htm http://www.edgarhorn.com/ AudioPhysic Scorpio: http://www.audiophysic.de/index_e.html http://www.soundbysinger.com/speakerff3.html Ikonoclast 7: http://www.warrengregoire.com/hifi-stereo-ikonoklast7.htm  These speakers may be the ultimate for you and you may be happy for many years, or they may be the beginning that sparks the deconstruction of how you understand sound.  Who knows.  But I would bet you'll enjoy the way they make music, from what you've said about yourself. Audio Physic, Edgarhorn,

jessie.dazzle wrote:

samuel33 wrote: "...I just ask some path to follow at first because i need urgently speakers... I compose music and i need quite quickly some speakers to work with. Hello Samuel, Ok... If I were in your situation, here is what I would do... I would take the operation in two main steps. Step 1) Get yourself something now... Just buy a decent pair of big old 1970's or 1980's era speakers (plenty available on eBay in very good condition), some decent but not necessarily "audiophile-approved" electronics to drive them, and get back to work composing music. You will be surprised what a small investment will buy. Here is the sort of thing I'm talking about : http://cgi.ebay.fr/2-Enceintes-CABASSE-modele-YAWL-3140002_W0QQitemZ150157030199QQihZ005QQcategoryZ137943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (don't know where you live, but I'd be happy to assist if you find something you just have to have here in France) Step 2) Take the time to learn more about what you want (stay away from the audio press), then build your "final" system accordingly... jd*

drdna wrote:

Well, I'll stick my neck out and tell you what I think.  I would say that it sounds right now that you have a kind of undefined idea of how you understand the sounds of audio reproduction.  Sort of on the level that you know that you like something that is like a super stereo, a definite step up from Circuit City, but cannot really put your finger on anything like the 200-250 Hz region, the off angle response, the time alignment, or anything like that specifically.  You have maybe heard a lot of buzz words like soundstage, inner detail, and finely etched accuracy and you kind of understand what these mean; you can relate it to your listening experience.  And that is about the level things are on.  Is that a fair estimate?

Romy the Cat wrote:

samuel33 wrote: …. I can't stop laughing when I read your comments about the audiophile mafia, you are so right. Samuel, it is important, reading my self-obsessive rage about the industry, do not take the things out of perspective. I never called the Audio Industry as a mafia. Mafia is a well organized and perfectly sane operation that subordinated to a purpose and intend. The Audio Industry is NOT purposeful or resolute organization and to call it mafia would be to extent too much credit to the Audio Industry. It seems for me that selling stolen cables speaker on audiogon is quite a criminal act, by the way have you notice that all the reviewers that encense wilson own personnaly wilson speakers? maybe just a coincidence.  samuel33 wrote:   Between mike Lavigne with his dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel dartzeel obsession and the TAS 'mini2/kharma nevrose there no more place for anything else... There is a huge space. The Mike Lavigne types is all about the syndrome of just brutally raped women who asked to read a lecture about discrimination of male coworkers at their work place. She kind of understands that her person experiences are not indicative, at least for the subject of the lecture, but she can not help it. Just the problem is that he buys all his equipement from the owner of the evolution acoustics who is also a dealer for dartzeel, emm labs etc... and can't stop saying in any thread in audiogon that these products are the best of the best bla bla bla : i don't see a victim here, i see a conniving or a kind of associate -what a man can do for better price when buing his own equipement...-  samuel33 wrote: I just want to ask you, which are the 5 or 10 speakers -10 000/30 000$- that intresting to listen at. “Interesting to listen?” That is a loaded comment. Speakers do not have own sound. You're sure of it?! i 'm not ...The Sound of loudspeakers is not what they produce but what we hear. In this context the “interesting to listen” category more describes your listening intents then a capacity of a given acoustic system….  samuel33 wrote: There are so many speakers and  so  bad information about their real value .... it can be helpful for a lot of people to begin their listening session with good speakers, don't you think? Samuel, I do not provide recommendations regarding the navigation in the audio swamp, there are many reasons why. As an experience person, I might assure that anything worthy in this subject you will discover from within. I can understand that...  samuel33 wrote: I compose music and i need quite quickly some speakers to work with. Why don’t you use the listening techniques that have been employing for years and that I call the “Lenin’s techniques”? I do not know how true it is – I heard that story in my childhood and it very much might be a BS as anything else was told about Lenin in my childhood. However those “Lenin’s techniques” are the techniques that I widely employ in audio assessments. Vladimir Lenin spoke 20 or so languages but did not speak Greek (for instance). Once he was informed that one of his articles was translated to Greek and the publisher sent him a copy to confirm if the translation was done accurately. Lenin know however, that when he wrote the original article then in his manuscript he screwed up some numbers, referring to a year of a famous historical event and it was consequentially reprinted in many other languages with wrong numbers. Lenin took the Greek translation, glanced to the referring year, which was corrected, and reply to the publisher: “The translation was made accurately”. In this little story I recognize in hidden the core of proper audio assessment…. Good story. I love stories with communism leader i don't know why.... Rgs, Romy the Cat

samuel33 wrote:

Yes it is fair estimate. I'm only 26 and happy to continue learning....

Samuel, being 26 is not a problem – the age is the deficiency that goes away with time. I you do not mind I would like consecrate about learning, this time not about loudspeakers but about the interactive pattern. I am certainly not in position to dictate to other how to infract but I have a wish and am perusing this wish at my site.

My wish is that posters at this site do not use this site as a bulletin board or as a web interface for their instant messages. I would like people to upload their developed thoughts instead of spontaneous phrase and left over from unsent instant communications. I was contemplating for a while to implement 100 minimum wards per post limit for posting anything at my site….

samuel33 wrote:

You're sure of it?! i 'm not ...

The INTEREST of listening a loudspeaker is the subject of your awareness but not the loudspeaker expressionism. If you do not feel it then get a best loudspeaker and play it to your vacuum cleaner….

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Samuel wrote : "...Step 1) no way .... i will never buy Cabass speakers..." Samuel, I did not at all mean to recommend Cabasse speakers... My point is not brand-specific... I just happen to stop on that pair as an example of a more or less consumer grade offering with a decent reputation (I have zero experience with them, so probably should have avoided using THAT example)... You could easily substitute older JBLs, Grundig, Yamaha, etc. The idea is to get yourself something relatively inexpensive, but nevertheless full range capable, right now, to fill the void and keep you from spending stupid money without knowing what exactly you are doing... This will allow you to take a distance, and see things more clearly. You can then take the time necessary to build a system that corresponds to your ideal. It will be far more educational. Another way of handling "Step 1" would be to pick up a good pair of "audiophile-approved" speakers on the second hand market (being careful to avoid anything that "drills holes in your head"!!!)... Use them as a place holder/educational tool, then sell them for about the same price once you know more what you want. If you want a name with which I do have some experience, you might try Verity Audio Parsifal+Encores (around $7,000 second hand)... They are not the last word in efficiency, and they are a ported design, but driven by decent electronics, in the right room (medium to large, but not huge), there is a good chance they would keep you satisfied while your direction has time to mature. Then, when and if the time comes to sell, you will likely not lose a cent. Also, because you move around a lot, their protective flight cases would be a big plus. It is not impossible that you find yourself keeping them for a very long time (I had a pair for eight years, and feel I learned from them). jd*

drdna wrote:

Hey this looks vaguely familiar. http://www.dagogo.com/Spotlight/AcapellaTriolon-Crowder.html

Hi Samuel, I see that quite a few replies without much in the way of suggestions.  Romy will not give you what you want, ie. a shopping list of speakers to audition, but I will give you one or two recommendations that I think sound quite good in that price range.

1) Soundlab U1, A1 or M1.  All quite similar in size full-range electrostatic loudspeakers systems.  Superb transparency and low level resolution, good dynamics (only not great compared to  full horn system), uncolored, and utterly coherent (this is a big problem with ANY multidriver system)

2) Avantgarde Duo.  Does a reasonably good job of not sounding particularly "horny" while having superb transparency and dynamics.  Bass is only so so with the powered module.

3) Used Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM.  Not the best speaker but dynamic like a horn and less colored than most horns.  Use with good tube amps and it makes a superb sound (with 95db/watt sensitivity and an easy load 30 watts is probably sufficient in all but a large room).  For a "conventional" box speaker I haven't heard anything better.

4) Edgarhorn Titan

5) Apogee Grand.  IMO, there is simply not a better speaker system in the world today than an Apogee Grand.  It was $85,000 when new and worth every penny.  I have a friend with a pair in Germany and there is simply nothing I have heard that is better.  The trouble is finding one as they made only about 20 pairs.  For much less money and much less trouble finding one look at good used Apogee Divas, Scintillas, or Studio Grands.

6) Apogee Synergy.  Resurrected Apogee now located in Australia.  Their new model is like a Scintilla but now a much easier speaker to drive (95db/watt and 3 ohms).  This is probably one of the top 2 or 3 best panel speakers currently in the world (the others are the Soundlabs and the Analysis Audio Amphytron)

7) Analysis Audio Amphytron  another panel speaker and large (over 2meters tall).

8) Thiel CS 3.6.  Yes, I know its cheap on the used market and now discontinued (but only after like at 13 year production run) but IMO it is the best speaker Jim Thiel ever made and with good amps it is very convincing.  The coherency and transparency rival electrostats and it has sufficient punch to satisfy there as well.  With the money saved on the speakers one can think seriously about getting the very best in electronics (a whole other thread I think).

morricab wrote:

Used Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM. Not the best speaker but dynamic like a horn and less colored than most horns. Use with good tube amps and it makes a superb sound (with 95db/watt sensitivity and an easy load 30 watts is probably sufficient in all but a large room). For a "conventional" box speaker I haven't heard anything better.