Paul S wrote:

Happily, Arkivmusic.com has made it available once again through its on-demand service. For Bruckner lovers, it's a must

“Reviewers” speak confidently about the various parts of cited musical compositions, and in many cases I believe they hear what they say they do. I think it is not only listening experience that bears this fruit, but it might also be a gift, a special capacity for hearing that the reviewer possesses. Whether it is possible to “hear what’s not there”, I am not sure; perhaps “some sound is implicit”. For example, it seems like musicians may “hear differently” from the rest of us. In the case of Bruckner’s Symphonies I am glad to be able to hear so much more than Before The Loudspeakers (BTL), and I am passing on here that much of what I have heard recently is voices, etc. that have been homogenized BTL, and some of those voices were somewhat homogenized even After The Loudspeakers (ATL) until I really cranked up the volume, at which time The Loudspeakers did not compress the Sound but voices came up that had been faint and “part of the chorus” previously. Some of these voices MIGHT have been more available at lower volumes with a doctored frequency response, but keep in mind that Bruckner uses the entire orchestra extensively, top to bottom, so I would not endorse trying to “voice speakers for Bruckner”, apart from using very wide range, very efficient speakers that can take the power to “give voice to Bruckner”. If anyone wonders, yes, the louder one plays back, the more critical the recording and the capabilities of the gear providing the signals and the drive to The Loudspeakers. Like I said up the thread, the more you ask from your system, the more it requires from you. I do “recommend” The Loudspeakers… with a whole thread full of relevant qualifications that I hope provide a map for someone else to implement these speakers, if that’s what they want to do, of course. Yes, they will play softly, too; but that is not how I have approached and implemented my version. I have insisted that music other than Bruckner not suffer from The Loudspeakers, and indeed other Music has also benefitted from these speakers, even at “normal” playback levels. I would still be happy with these speakers if I could no longer listen to loud Bruckner; but I probably would not have gone through this drill were it not for the desire to immerse in Big, symphonic Music.>>

Paul S

Up the thread I shared that sitting on the floor with my ears at the same elevation as the center of the 10” drivers sounded good, and that I planned to put The Loudspeakers on 10” stands so I could sit in my listening chair with my ears at the same position relative to the height of the 10” driver. I also happened to mention this plan directly to Troels Gravesen and I was surprised when he answered that he supposed the sound shift I had described did not relate to where my ears were relative to the 10” driver, rather it had to do with where my ears were in the room. Hmmm… I never thought of that… Still, I found a couple of old milk crates, and I made a sturdy ramp, and I singlehandedly got each of The Loudspeakers up on a crate, and I did some listening. And Troels was right, I had not reproduced the sound I got (and still get) while sitting on the floor. I did like a significant power boost I noticed with 10” stands, but it was accompanied by a loss of “sound effects”, like imaging and “space”, that I realized I prefer to the added outright power. I would say that the 10” stands in my case make The Loudspeakers themselves “too present”, whatever the “real reason” for this effect. Troels also mentioned that he designed The Loudspeakers with microphones and ears at the level of the horn center, and he offered that this would be the best way to listen to The Loudspeakers. I spent about a week and a half with the 10” stands, and last week I went to inch and one-half blocks under the speakers, with my ears at the horn center when I am seated in my chair. Folks, there are not many horns I want pointed at my ears, but these 18 Sound drivers are very refined, and I do not toe the speakers in that far, in any case; I am still a ways off the central axis. My imaging and space are back and better than ever, with no problems except the ongoing reality that The Loudspeakers reproduce pretty much everything they are fed, for better or for worse. They create a Huge Universe of Differences that includes everything you’d want to know about the recording and the rest of your system, along with the current state of the electricity. I guess it’s each person’s place to choose what they listen to and how they listen to it; but I have to say I am both mystified and amused by the lengths to which people go to listen to crap. On the other hand, I believe that Bruckner is not really popular, either, although it is my current yardstick and delight, as well.>>

Paul S

Today I experimented some more with positioning while keeping Troels’ ideas in mind. I believe I mentioned that I liked the sound I get when standing up between the speakers, as well as when I sit on the floor, and when I measured the distance from the ceiling to my ear holes when standing, I found (surprise…) it’s close to the distance from the floor to my ears when I sit on the floor. Hmmm, again… From this I mentally stretched and pushed my chair back away from the speakers until my ears were about 3’ off the back wall when I was seated, and I toed the speakers in until they pointed at my shoulders when I am seated in my chair in the new position. As things are now, my ears are about 10’ from the speakers when I am seated. You can say what you want about my methods, it “worked”! I got astounding “space” and “imaging” along with greater articulation and clarity at all frequencies, particularly higher frequencies, where I had thought my electronics were a little confused, or maybe it was mediocre electricity. Now I think this slight HF confusion was caused by driver combing, or lobing, or something like that, because it went away when I adopted the new listening positions.  I was amazed and super excited and touched Musically by more articulate LF, as well, whole new melodic lines in the Matacic Bruckner 7. Simply amazing. I’m glad I listened to Troels. I have read several builder response posts where people have changed Troels' design, including all sorts of additions, subtractions, and modifications, and then they seemed underwhelmed or had “issues” with The Loudspeakers’ performance as they used them. Of course everyone is entitled to build and use their own speakers however they want; but remember it doesn’t take much to change the sound, and changes might or might not be for the better. Troels has said as much himself, many times and many ways. As for myself, I guess I have been spurred on and pretty excited lately by great results!>>

Paul S

It’s been such fun, and so gratifying, to keep getting “more” from The Loudspeakers, which have so far been a veritable Sonic Cornucopia, exceeding my expectations and delighting me again and again since I first listened to Music with them, as chronicled at the beginning of this thread. I should say that my primary relationship with The Loudspeakers has been Listening to Music rather than hi-fi, per se. However, as I keep hearing more in terms of Music, it makes me want to explore certain “aspects of the Sound” that these speakers deliver, namely, “imaging” and “space”. So far, I have stuck to my guns (and Troels’ instructions) and NOT messed with crossovers in order to shape the sound, as some other TL builders have discussed doing on other forums. So far, I have simply moved The (bog standard) Loudspeakers and my ears around in the same listening room I have used for almost 17 years in order to hear better and better understand the Music I want to hear, along with the “sounds of space” and other things currently of interest to me. Before The Loudspeakers (BTL) I chose Sound “density” and dynamics over imaging and space every time, since it seemed at the time to be an either/or situation. And I was never that smitten by the sort of “air-y ambience” that some small speakers do so well, even as they dilute the density and the “un-forced Force” of live music events. At this point it appears that I have discovered with The Loudspeakers a very saturated and detailed FR sonic balance that includes width, height and depth that scales well with both intimate and very large Music venues, apropos, given the recording includes this “information” in the first place. It’s a solid fact that my place in the room, The Loudspeakers’ places in the room, and my position relative to The loudspeakers are all important in terms of the Sound of the Music I get. I will try to explain better as I am able, and I will continue reporting all this as I find the words to describe it better. Meanwhile, Wow!>>

Paul S

Left the system on for several hours today, and it made a huge difference in overall sound. It is all “settled down”, very “lifelike” in terms of pitch, timbre, and overall clarity and “presence” coming from The Loudspeakers but not at all attached to the speakers. No downside at all from sitting with my ears on the horns’ axes; quite the contrary. More hi-fi people should be trying these horns, and the folks who hear them as “too much” might well benefit from sticking with them and experimenting with other gear before altering Troels’ design. How many years have I tried to get the Sound I’m getting now? Many!

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Paul S>>

Of course my newly re-tipped phono cartridge contributed, credit where it’s due, but I am also giving The Loudspeakers credit for making subtle differences in playback plain and Musically worthwhile. The performance in question is Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Bruckner 6 (LP). Listening now I can hear why I have had to work to relate to this symphony. While Bruckner is often elaborate, here he opens and lays his foundations using rhythm as a way to begin, hand off, join, counter and end musical threads. Because of the sheer number and variety of voices, their wildly varying intensities, and the intricate, interweaving and contrapuntal rhythms, B6 has previously sounded somewhat “congested” and discursive to me, which has muddied for me what Bruckner intended to convey. Today the rhythms and the melodies, harmonies, etc. they carry are simply clearer, without in any way losing density, and the parts and the whole both make Musical sense to me; I “get it”.

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Whatever else is going on with hi-fi, I first wish to be able to inhabit the Music and the performances. Check and Check. It seems to me like there is more variety with less smearing and confusion than before, like it’s finally, all of a sudden come into focus. Very nice. Nice scale, and nice depth, too. While I can believe that there are people who “get” Bruckner from a table radio, it’s so far worked best for me to scale it up, both volume and “size”, I suppose to “open it up”, which only works if the system has the headroom to do it. If I ever have to downsize I hope by then I have Bruckner figured out enough that I can fully appreciate a scaled down version. Of course my  present playback is scaled back compared to a live performance, but – apparently – it’s a matter of degree for me, and I am happy and very pleased to share that The Loudspeakers and the Namiki Micro Ridge stylus have combined to enable me to hear Bruckner 6 well enough to really appreciate it.>>

Paul S

rickmcinnis wrote:

Just noticing this. I have a pair of those VIAWAVE tweeters if you are interested in them. Have no need for them.

Recent posts about the limitations of 2-way loudspeakers have got me thinking (again) about my own thoughts and processes in developing The Loudspeakers that I am using now. It might surprise some people to hear that I was not trying to find “the best possible loudspeakers”, rather I simply wanted a system that would render Bruckner (and other Big Music) in a way that would allow me to listen to it “deeply”, as I have been accustomed to listening to smaller works for many years. I wanted to re-purpose as much of my system as possible, except I was saying goodbye to a separately powered center channel that I had explored for over 10 years. After my 5 years of experience with Lamm ML2s I knew I wanted more power, preferably a lot more power, without sacrificing the wonderful sound the ML2s are known for.  A “plus” for me would be that I would not “need” sub-woofers, and I aimed for 1 amp for each (right and left) side. I developed a plan over the 10-year course of experiments with vintage driver “stacks”, and I continued to weigh that information against high-powered amps I was listening to on a more and more regular basis, trying to keep everything inter-related in my mind. I found my amps (Marantz MA-9S2s) before I found speakers I wanted, and I worked with these amps for quite a while before choosing new speakers, keeping the amps in mind. After all that I had reasons based on listening to believe that the least I could use for Bruckner was 4-driver speakers, with 18” woofers. I really wrung out the MA-9S2s before I pulled the trigger on The Loudspeakers, and the project took me a long time. I basically “crossed my fingers” regarding the modern drivers The Loudspeakers used. When I finished the speakers it did not take me long to figure out I was on the right track. One thing I am sure of now is that, indeed,  a big 4-way is the minimum for Bruckner for me. To my ears, drivers need less rather than more to do in terms of frequency response. Of course, this has to be weighed against crossovers, etc. How nice that my current system does most Music better than previous systems, and it is at least comparable on all fronts, including those where my previous system excelled. If thinking less than 4-way speakers for Bruckner, think again about LF, and think about how high you want an LF driver to go. Likewise, think about the top of the frequency range, how low you want that driver to go. If 3 octaves or less per driver, you are at 4-ways. I was at 4-ways. It’s working fine. As far as the amps are concerned, I don’t know what I would have done had I not found them. They are a critical part of “the speaker system” as I have embedded it in my system. The MA-9S2s have their own thread, as do other elements in my current system.>>

Paul S