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10-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 101
Post ID: 26378
Reply to: 26377
My favorite seat
 rowuk wrote:
This is one of the aspects of being a "conductor". Very immediate sound, little early reflections or concert hall - everything is "overly" dynamic. When we compare this to being in the audience, each instrument group behaves in different ways - but the horns only have one way - reproduce what was recorded where everything is distorted in perspective by close microphones.

While I took "being the conductor" to mean the mindset of the one who is in charge of adjusting the sound, rather than listening where the conductor is positioned, nevertheless this is interesting, if only to bring up that most of the troubles are in using a single set-up of speakers at home to reproduce what in most cases is a blending of many different point sound-sources in the recording.
In reality, when the precision of the speakers is sufficient, we hear weird three-dimensional things on many recordings: the piano floats slightly above the floor, the vocalist is a giant set of lips and somehow is sitting in the lap of the cellist, the percussionist seems to be running madly across the stage to get to different parts of his kit. It creates cognitive dissonance that can feel a bit tense.
Shall we eschew our favorite pieces? Restrict ourselves to only recordings where the microphones match our speaker set-up? And then, what about how the ever-important but often-neglected room interacts with our speakers?

 rowuk wrote:
I wrote row 15 as this is my favorite seat in the Frankfurt Alte Oper and other excellent halls. ... My goal for playback is to make row 15 the plausible entity.

Yes, we all have a place we like to sit for live music, where the resonances and interactions with the space and walls of the hall to give us an effect we find most pleasing.
We readily accept this for live music, without much thought; yet for our home stereo we seem ashamed of resonance, colorations, and admitting a taste for a particular flavor of sounds, kowtowing to THD, waterfall plots and so-called neutrality.
Not to say these things have no importance, because of course they. It is only that I think we sometimes forget all this, as we make small changes in our audio system, making it so easy to make incremental "improvements" which lead us astray from our original objectives.
For me, I want nothing more than to be able to simply put on whatever record on the turntable and get whatever emotional connection to the musicians and the original event may have survived the recording process, as I have described before the original Sound.

Adrian
10-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 102
Post ID: 26379
Reply to: 26378
Learn to live with it
As the recordings themselves are missing so much information, creating a plausible image (certainly not the original) is the actual “art” involved.I must admit that I do not generally have issues with singers mouths stretching between the speakers or anybody sitting on someones lap.

That being said, I have not set my playback up for maximum “imaging”. Row 15 means a bit diffuse, slightly rolled off, big soft bass. For recordings with no geometry (anything in the entertainment sector), I can toe in the speakers for more audiophile type “imaging”.

What is decisive for me is the fabric - the orchestral fabric when playing trumpet and the playback fabric keeping artifacts like recorded intermodulation, and articulation as natural as possible. As the recordings are geometrically and perspectively distorted, this is not always easy. Perhaps less dynamic behavior of the speaker would be a welcome compromise. Maybe Romys injection channel was the beginning of the end?

In my world, playback has nothing to do with connection to the musicians. A car stereo or Bose portable USB speaker give me a high degree of connection. Playback is a form of self pleasure. 

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 103
Post ID: 26380
Reply to: 26379
Do musicians hear music differently?
 rowuk wrote:
Row 15 means a bit diffuse, slightly rolled off, big soft bass. What is decisive for me is ... keeping artifacts like recorded intermodulation and articulation as natural as possible ... A car stereo or Bose portable USB speaker give me a high degree of connection.
 
I agree. I do think that this may be characteristic of how musicians hear music -- this is based on my discussions with my wife (also a trumpet player) and other musician friends -- which I have conjectured before that is due to them being "hard-wired" to play music. You can literally just read the sheet music and hear the different parts playing together. Too much "audiophile soundstage" and they tend to begin to focus on errors the musicians are making instead of enjoying the music.

 rowuk wrote:
Maybe Romys injection channel was the beginning of the end?
 

You said the thing we are not supposed to say aloud!

Adrian
10-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 104
Post ID: 26381
Reply to: 26379
To be seen....
+++ Perhaps less dynamic behavior of the speaker would be a welcome compromise. Maybe Romys injection channel was the beginning of the end...

Here is 2 very interesting questions. Is less dynamic behavior beneficial or the dynamic how it was done in Macondo specific implementation had some fundamental errors that compromise high dynamic range experience? I have no answer to this question. Regarding the injection channel. Yes, from architectural point of view the injection channel is an absolutely ridiculous solution.  I absolutely understand it but think about it. I am very intentionally implemented and defend the use of injection channel despite that I feel that it is an absolutely ridiculous solution. I made many many experiments, over the years and years and I never confirm that with injection channel sound became worse, quite a controrary. I completely understand how somebody might feel about injection channel and if I would be criticizing somebody else doing it I would be the first who would be laughing. And right now get this: I feel that my empirical practicing of use of injection channel overweights my belief system. In other words my acknowledgment of injection channel benefits is a direct contradiction of anything I proclaim in Macondo. Somebody might find this mental state questionable but I am comfortable with this. It is not about egos but the truth, it is what it is.

I need to say that psychologically I do have a bias toward comfort in this situation. For instance I absolutely hate tattoos. I do not like how they look, I do not like what they represent, I do not like the huge sub culture surrounding tattoos. It is not the time being overly judgmental, it is not my business what other people do with own expressivity I just saying that I personally detaste it. Still, I have a tattoo, I am very proud about it and I very much like it. It was 3rd year anniversary off my relationship with Amy and I suddenly begin to feel but I need to do for her something which whould transcend my feelings of aesthetics and my feelings what is right and wrong. I felt that her presence in my life is so dominating that it's gravity completely overpower my personal vision of myself. I put her name on my left shoulder and I am incredibly proud that I have the name that I really to keep on myself to the rest of my life. I know it is completely wasted psychiatric PhD dissertation right there, but I am in incredible comfort with myself in this situation. The use and injection channel is in a very same line of thoughts. I also can absolutely assure that it is no end of any kind. I am sure that other practicing has a lot more tricks in the storage, call that I am doing just reporting the journey and try and understand what it means.

By the way, Remedies the Beauty cabinets are being shipped today from China and it will be incredibly funny if after I assemble hir I will be losing the magic that Dannoy had, since I am clueless what is responsible for this magic...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 105
Post ID: 26382
Reply to: 26378
MSG....
 drdna wrote:
Yes, we all have a place we like to sit for live music, where the resonances and interactions with the space and walls of the hall to give us an effect we find most pleasing.
We readily accept this for live music, without much thought; yet for our home stereo we seem ashamed of resonance, colorations, and admitting a taste for a particular flavor of sounds, kowtowing to THD, waterfall plots and so-called neutrality.

It is correct but I developed over the years quite elegant explanation of it. I do not insist that it is right explanation but it is the explanation that make me personally comfortable. The resonances, distortions and interactions during live musical event are random by nature, never static and made by natural acoustic means. The interactios, distortions and resonances in audio are always static, almost done as a byproduct of sound reproduction and the most important musicians do not entrench those effects into thier performing intentions. That Glen Gould it would be pushing his keys slightly different, at the different time, and will be using slightly different instrument if he knew that his play will be heard basically in closets.

I think it is very similar what happened with MSG . When 100 years ago Japanese discovered that MSG extracted from seaweeds greatly benefit their umami it was certainly a wonderful idea in a specific deliberat application. Then, when the celebrated Japanese restaurant syndrome was proliferated to the West and nowadays zillion of helpless cooks substitute their disability to get natural taste from fake agriculture forced to add gasoline made MSG substitute into the tasteless food that is that is obviously not the same as the original MSG application was. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,676
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 106
Post ID: 26383
Reply to: 26382
The Distance Between: Language and Science
For sure, a lot happens between The Event and The Listener. To start with, it seems like a miracle that two people familiar with the score could recognize "it" and agree on it, via any sort of playback whatsoever, given the sorts of variables we talk about, including manipulating the score itself, the musicians, and instruments, and singers, the venues, the recording techniques, equipment, sessions, various and sundry storage media and their implementations, random "playback" systems and spaces, and - not least - us. So it's swell we don't often get totally preoccupied with this stuff as we listen, but we tend to focus (more or less) on the parts we recognize as Music. And I hope it is a satisfactory/pleasurable measure of Musical qualities that we "bring out" while listening with our own versions of playback. Given the vast number of variables involved, it's no wonder we can't get and keep them all under control all the time. And isn't it grand that we can (somehow) come up with a way to get both insight into and pleasure from Music from a playback that remains basically "the same" for years on end. At least, that's how it's "worked" for me. It's been many years since I adopted a "just go with it" quotient that helps me to implement changes when I don't undersand the "science" involved. It's not that I "don't care about the science"; but I don't care about the science.


Paul S
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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 107
Post ID: 26384
Reply to: 26383
Get the balance right
 Paul S wrote:
it seems like a miracle that two people familiar with the score could recognize "it" and agree on it, via any sort of playback whatsoever ... we tend to focus (more or less) on the parts we recognize as Music. 

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I think it is very similar what happened with MSG


I agree with this, and it's a keen observation -- Ultimately, we are trying to reproduce the Music, and by this I mean whatever aspects of the original musical event give us the optimal experience - of course, this may be a bit different for each person.

The analogy is the old joke about a famous sculptor when asked how he was able to make such an amazing elephant statue, replying, "I just chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant!"

So perhaps, we are doing the same with our audio systems, trying to remove the unnatural distortions and leave only the Music, and it leads to different approaches:

1) Macondo-style (High Detail/Horns): emphasize the music relative to the distortion; these listeners can tolerate more distortion, but also need a lot of musical signal to be satisfied. (It makes the Injection Channel logically consistent)

2) Tannoy-style ("Laid Back"): dampen the distortion relative to the music; these listeners can tolerate less distortion, but also need less of the musical signal to be satisfied.

3) "Neutral"-style: eliminate distortions even at the expense of part of the musical signal; these listeners can tolerate the least distortion, but also need the least musical signal content to be satisfied. 

4) "iPod" Not An Audiophile: these listeners can tolerate more distortion, but only need a little musical signal content to be satisfied.


So, in all the cases, listeners are simply getting whatever they need in musical signal content, but because everyone is different, the solutions are different. 

The "Neutral audiophile" may think tubes and horns are unlistenable due to the distortion, while the "Horn/SET audiophile" may find the "neutral" system drained of life. 

Non-audiophiles will recognize the added musical content of audiophile systems and be impressed, but they simply don't need it to get their own musical satisfaction.

As to Romy's Dunlavy experiment, in this model, perhaps he has enough lifetime experience with music to require less musical signal content over time to be satisfied, and the dampening of distortions reduces anxious tension, leading to a sense of calm and his self-surprise that it is somehow "enough!"

Adrian 
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 108
Post ID: 26385
Reply to: 26384
It is not so elementary, Mr Watson....
+++ Tannoy-style ("Laid Back"): dampen the distortion relative to the music; these listeners can tolerate less distortion, but also need less of the musical signal to be satisfied.

I wish I would agree was that what I'm hearing from Dunnoy I might fully qualified as laid-back sound. I understand that you're not characterizing the sound but rather a concept and I not necessary disagree but I I wish I would have subjective references to suggest it is the case. Unfortunately I cannot as I do not particularly feel that sound of Dannoy is laid back. I also do not know anything about distortions as I am not sure what it is. From audio prospective I would not characterize it as laid back. I am thinking for many weeks how to identify this sound and I was not able to come up with anything better than presented versus implied. Macondo in the way express everything as is, living very little for audio imagination. I am not talking musical imagination but purely auditable imagination, all i are dotted an all t are crossed.Dannoy does all the same but it does it in some kind of friendly and very kind way, living a lot of room for extrapolations and pure audio fantasy. It does has minor tendency to over glorifying things, like GRF does, it has this peculiar vintage tannoy attractiveness but for some reason in passive loaded application and particular complemented this very dry mid bass it is very different sound. Insultingly attractive and I completely gave up to that experience. When I discovered this song I spent days and days and nice not stopping listening and it was quite amazing. My local audio friends, Don, after he's stopped at my place and listen Macondo, dunleavy 2021 after the very first bars of listening Dunnoy, even without meat bass drivers, informed is that if he had the sound he would not leave his house which was exactly how I felt, and done visit my listening rooms for the last 20 years quite regularly. While my speakers are being built in China my another local other friend Bill has actually my drivers, my Dunoys and he is experimenting to combine Dannoys with his 40hz straight horns. He reports very Superior results to his previous Twitter plus mid-range horn combination. I am bringing all this data not because I tried to convince anybody in anything but just to inform that what we are dealing in Dunnoy is not some kind of step back, simplification or laid back movement but it is very very serious result. Please take seriously my statement the result is very Noble and please take seriously my statement that I have no idea why.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 109
Post ID: 26386
Reply to: 26385
Speak the unspeakable
Maybe with the Dunnoy, we have a “working” point source? Perhaps this type of “point source” puts audio playback artifacts in a better location than with the traditional spread of drivers?

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 110
Post ID: 26387
Reply to: 26386
I do not know.
I was thinking about it in past. I do not particularly believe too much in point source. We have no vertical resolution by our hearing and if drivers located strictly in a vertical line then in longitude domain they are single point source. Of course there are lobbying and many other effects how drivers talk to each other but in the context of perfect time alignment I don't see there is any advantages of single source, I mean physical point source. The point source is complicated subject generally. Among all drivers that I know many companies were trying to do what Tannoy did but from where I'm staying none of them work. Only those vintage Tannoy silver, red and gold did something special, from what I heard but I personally have very limited experience with gold and non experience with silver. I am kind of years ago put myself in a red domain and it is what I know. I have no idea what Reds do so special that make them sound soq differently. Interesting to point out that I have now five amplifiers at home at none of them until I went 140 w B2. This is kind all ridiculous but 93 sensitive red driven by B2 do not sound like 93 db sensitive. It's very much remind me what the biggest wilsons do, they are in the middle '90s insensitivity but sound much more dynamic than that.

Certainly the design is red is fine and there are ton of the literature about it. I think in the end ever since my balls down to some kind of material that they accidentally or not used. I'm not kidding, from place where I stand I think that the vintage red Twitter is the more lucrative to use in context of multi-channel horn installation. I was thinking already how to retrofit anaconda with separated Tannoy red compression driver but milq can I drive it well and this breaks the whole idea of muly-application by identical amplifiers. It might define another day to dissect Red twetter and try to figure out what was done in there. It would be curious to know if this superb pleasure I experience from reds came from twetter, from woofer or from... crossover. They are all possibilities. I have no idea why possibly loaded to my Sanspeak driver suddenly made the entire red so attractive and so balanced, as this loading should not affect sound of twetter at all. They are huge amount of variables that I do not know and this I am at very big fear the time I lose something going from the Dunnoy to Remedis the Beauty as if I lose anything I might not know what is responsible for it. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 111
Post ID: 26388
Reply to: 26386
Point source and distortion artifacts
 rowuk wrote:
Maybe with the Dunnoy, we have a “working” point source? Perhaps this type of “point source” puts audio playback artifacts in a better location than with the traditional spread of drivers?

I think this is certainly a distinct possibility. The audio lobing that occurs with multiple drivers is absolutely one type of audio distortion/artifact that is clearly audible. Vertical speaker alignment and driver time alignment lead to consistent audio lobing patterns, but do not eliminate them. While vertical driver alignment helps, it relies on the listener keeping their ears in a vertically symmetric position. Small dynamic changes in listener position are unavoidable. Head tilt will allow these distortions to emerge, more prominent is some frequencies in a semi-chaotic fashion. 

I think this is only one of many types of audible distortion/artifact that emerge as a result of the physical limitations of speaker design. The "Dunnoy" is doing something right, bringing the sound closer to the listener's perceptual requirements, and it may include "a working point source" but there is probably more to it that this.
10-12-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,676
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 112
Post ID: 26389
Reply to: 26388
Getting to The Point (Alone)
Of course we are just picking our poison when we settle on any sort of speaker, since any speaker is a compilation (pile) of compromises. And it's not like we can contain and control "phase issues", either by measuring the distance to our voice coils, lining up our drivers, or going to a "point source", if only because "phase" itself varies for so many reasons that are outside our control at any moment, including frequency, diffraction, relative motion, on and on; basically, stuff that's part and parcel of Music, and even of Sound in the Real World, but - somehow -  it's of no further use for "reproduction". Based entirely on experience, I would say that it's "worth it" to do some "empirical" modeling and testing; but it only works for me if I can tweak it to taste for my personal use and enjoyment. I will certainly be interested to read/hear Romy's thoughts on his "final" version, when/if it happens. But it seems to me it's all been "subjective" so far. And I can certainly relate to that.

Paul S
10-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 362
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 113
Post ID: 26399
Reply to: 26362
Two separate audio systems
 N-set wrote:


If I read you correctly the big midbass did not release the "intellectual tension/demand" of Macondo/Milq. Perhaps I'm wrong or oversimplifying but it seems to me that at least a part of your "problem" with Macondo is an incarnation of the eternal intellect/emotions dichotomy with Macondo being shifted too much on the intellectual side.


excuse me for off topic 
the question is :could we have all we need in one audio system?  i think it is not easy .in my idea the good sound is definite/absolute and it is not about taste and this means we do not need too many audio systems but i think it may be better to have two separate systems .





www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
10-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 114
Post ID: 26400
Reply to: 26399
Completeness?
Of course some of us can have all that we need in one serious audio system - just like some of us can have all that we need with one wife, one car, one trumpet. That being said, some of us are NOT happy with one of anything and “need” a wife and lover, multiple cars, multiple trumpets. In this case, the “problem” is not the audio system, it is in the head of the person in need.This is a luxury problem. Too many do because they can, not because of need.
What I can say is that there is no interest if we do not invest. We can grow with our systems, wives, cars, trumpets. We can also blame external things for everything and never grow at all.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 115
Post ID: 26402
Reply to: 26400
"You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one..." Lennon
I hope you remember the famous picture when Albert Einstein shows his tang? Now, pretend that it is not Einstein but Kurt Gödel….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 116
Post ID: 26405
Reply to: 26399
Different lingerie?
That’s one solution to one-wife ‚problem’. Having multiple cartridges and tonearms to some extent does the same.
Btw Amir Audio from Tehran this is you Amir?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 117
Post ID: 26407
Reply to: 26405
Solution?
Jarek, is a man who has multiple wifes or multiple lovers kind of subconsciously suffering from the feeling that he does not have the ONE that fulfil ALL his expectation and his desires? I knew quite number of men who are very prolific in multiparters seen, years back I was one of them, but I do not piratically feel that they, as a class, are happier than those monotheistic lovers.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 362
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 118
Post ID: 26408
Reply to: 26407
Two Systems not means two different sonic objects
I think discussing about "multiple systems (or multiple partner) vs one system (or one wife)" is quite different to what i said about two separate audio systems.I mean Two audio systems is not about two different sonic objectives. 
two different systems have different sound but they could be seen as two window to the object.My example is not good but i share it .The example is looking at a beautiful woman from two different sides with different distance .The woman is there (sonic objectives) but we look at two different windows.
I have heard tannoy red , it is very very good , listening to the tannoy for me is like looking to a pretty woman from 10m distance with my eyes and listening to a transparent full range sound like kondo/living voice is like looking to the same woman from 30cm with eye glasses. 
Jerk, yes your guess is right, i started Amir Audio since 2019 because no audio distributor imported what i need to have. I was audio blogger since 2002

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 119
Post ID: 26409
Reply to: 26407
Agreed
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Jarek, is a man who has multiple wifes or multiple lovers kind of subconsciously suffering from the feeling that he does not have the ONE that fulfil ALL his expectation and his desires? I knew quite number of men who are very prolific in multiparters seen, years back I was one of them, but I do not piratically feel that they, as a class, are happier than those monotheistic lovers.

Totally agree with you. Fortunately Im not one of these men…but I have multiple cartridges Wink

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 120
Post ID: 26410
Reply to: 26402
Einstein was a cat
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I hope you remember the famous picture when Albert Einstein shows his tang? Now, pretend that it is not Einstein but Kurt Gödel….


Kurt Gödel with all his brilliance was above all, paranoid. Sticking his tongue out would give someone the opportunity to poison it...

Seriously, Gödel gave us countless processes to follow to solve great issues. I can't imagine him sticking his tongue out as that is illogical. I picture Einstein as enjoying everything that he did but question if Gödel had anything fun or optional in his life... He did only have one wife however...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,193
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 121
Post ID: 26419
Reply to: 26381
A link to another thread.
I did not know if I need to post it here or in my Remedies there, but this is the best explanation I have for now regarding the Macondo/Milq problem. I am very excited with this realization and it look like it fit.

 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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