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10-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 101
Post ID: 22081
Reply to: 22080
GOTO SG-146LD-4
fiogf49gjkf0d
I got GOTO drivers to see how they are going to work in 46Hz horn!This is just luck, as I never expected to find them in Russia, but I did!They are in mint condition, used very little, bought 8 years ago directly from GOTO factory.I have 4pcs - 2 per channel. This allows me to keep length of horn almost the same as it is now.Double 4" to 200x100mm throat adapter is included, so I need some adjustment to my existing throat (220x220mm)
My question is: do I need to make 2m horn longer to reach 200x100mm throat, or I can try with existing throat ?
goto.jpeg
10-15-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 102
Post ID: 22082
Reply to: 21988
Romy, take your head off :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is 4” exit and reportedly goes down to 27Hz. I do not know what a lot about this diver but it might be a good driver for 40Hz horn. 4” into 40hz? God, it has to be at least 16 feet long horn! I would take my head off to somebody who goes for it. 
Smile
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 103
Post ID: 22084
Reply to: 22082
I would advise to slow down.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Murat, what can I say? They might be great drivers and good luck to put them in use. I still do not know how are you are planning to incorporate your 40Hz horn into the rest of your playback and it look like you do pay attention to it too much. I am a bit take back with speed and amount of your going through the drivers and solutions. It kind of remind me myself 15 year back. There is nothing wrong with it but from the position how I see the thing today I feel that I did not give to myself time to understand many thing that I was doing then. I do think that step on the very same land mind. You showed at my horizon juts a couple month and and during this time you have dramatically changed drivers, horns, topologies and many other things. I do not think that you do anything wrong but I do think that you do not allow the perception of sound that you develop in your listening room to mature on you. Take some time and to think about sound you get more. Do not change anything but rather think about what you get and how your inner you deal with that sound. I do not call you to do any BS meditation or anything like this but I do assure you that understanding the sonic impact does take time. For instance the new Goto drivers that you engaged will require a complex horn solution, crossovering and integration solution. For a person who know what he does I would say that it might take a good 6-12 month to make the driver to work well in a context of a given installation. When I see you report a next day after getting a new horn or a new driver that “it sound good” I truly do not take the comment seriously.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 104
Post ID: 22087
Reply to: 21897
What we have after month
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you, Romy, for input. I'm still following my initial concept:

MuratsHorn3.jpg

Bottom horn is finally ready and I like the sound with 12" Supravox in it. Moreover, I don't feel the need for Tapped Horn with 12" Supravox.
I'm still waiting for MF horn LeCleach 270Hz (on top) and still have to finally decide about driver (now using JBL2490), but the rest is done.
Of course, if I decide to use GOTO - everything will be changed. What I expirienced today - GOTO goes from 50Hz far to 1kHz in 46Hz horn, but sound in MF range is very bad. I don't think it is driver problem. It is horn problem, of course. And 1st order will be not enough to cut this. So, integrating GOTO will be a challenge.
10-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 105
Post ID: 22088
Reply to: 22087
GOTO in 42Hz horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks impressive Smile
IMG_0421.JPG
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 106
Post ID: 22093
Reply to: 22087
Some comments.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I said above your you "experienced today  with GOTO" is just your transitional feeling and you will change this feeling many times. To accommodate a pair of 42Hz horn in a system is a year-long project otherwise you get an accidental result. In a few month loving your horns you will be sick and tired to wok around them in your listening room, or perhabs you will feel that the horn displacements changed acoustic in your room too much, as the result you decided to hide the horn while it sound  and integrated well... good luck with this projects. To drop driver into random horns and to love result is not the same as to get max from a given topology... 
 
Regarding the new design. It is more to my liking, which might not mean anything. I do feel that the upper bass horn is a bit too bulky for your design. If you go for Tratrix then it will be juts 36" long and it would be way more balance. Also, having the midbass horn you have no need to push the last few Hz out of upperbass horn. 
 
I do not like the frame. It has nice air feeling but I think it is too flimsy and good only for sketches. In the real word when you hook your horns and driver you will see that it will become incredibly heavy construction and even if you go with metal bars the thing will swing and lean. If you do inset to have this curved frame then consider on a back an arm with contra-weight that would balance the mass of the horns in front. You also will not able to move the hors up and de in this curved configuration - you might find it useful. If you insist to have this design of frame then add a surface at the bottom of the upperbass horn otherwise you would need 2 people to move it. Also, from the bottom of the frame, approximately from elevation of a tweeter run a single metal bar to the back of the floor circle. that would give you a third leg and will make all of it more pragmatic. 
 
Regarding the proposal to lend me a pair of the GOTO SG-146LD-4 drivers to let me to experiment with them. I would decline. To make a proper horn for 146LD and to accommodate  it would be a project that would take more efforts then I willing to spend nowadays. Even if I own the driver I will let it sit in a box, wanting for time we move to next house. 
 
The idea to make similar driver is not a bad idea - for bass reproduction it is very simple - no phase plug at etc... Everything hits the wall when we are taking about diaphragms. Are you willing to spend next 5 year of your life experimenting with diaphragm making? I do not have it now in me. Perhaps I will do in a future  but it would be in "project management" format and won't be doing everything myself as I use to do. The reality is that with an infant in my hands I do not do critical audio nowadays. Thomas just become to crawl two weeks back and become a bit less needy and it gave me some free room to spend for some more or less critical listening....
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 107
Post ID: 22095
Reply to: 22093
Good hobby :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
As I said above your you "experienced today  with GOTO" is just your transitional feeling and you will change this feeling many times. To accommodate a pair of 42Hz horn in a system is a year-long project otherwise you get an accidental result. In a few month loving your horns you will be sick and tired to wok around them in your listening room, or perhabs you will feel that the horn displacements changed acoustic in your room too much, as the result you decided to hide the horn while it sound  and integrated well... good luck with this projects. To drop driver into random horns and to love result is not the same as to get max from a given topology... 
First impression is only to decide if I go in this direction.And definitely I've decided to go!Compression driver in 50-500 range is something really special. Light, transparent and airy...bass!
 
Regarding the new design. It is more to my liking, which might not mean anything. I do feel that the upper bass horn is a bit too bulky for your design. If you go for Tratrix then it will be juts 36" long and it would be way more balance. Also, having the midbass horn you have no need to push the last few Hz out of upperbass horn.
Agree, for upper bass is too big. The idea was to complement my other 2m horn, but I'm not using it anymore.Another big bonus of this huge horn is that I don't feel the need for any other channel lower! I've switched off my tapped horns!

I do not like the frame. It has nice air feeling but I think it is too flimsy and good only for sketches. In the real word when you hook your horns and driver you will see that it will become incredibly heavy construction and even if you go with metal bars the thing will swing and lean. If you do inset to have this curved frame then consider on a back an arm with contra-weight that would balance the mass of the horns in front. You also will not able to move the hors up and de in this curved configuration - you might find it useful. If you insist to have this design of frame then add a surface at the bottom of the upperbass horn otherwise you would need 2 people to move it. Also, from the bottom of the frame, approximately from elevation of a tweeter run a single metal bar to the back of the floor circle. that would give you a third leg and will make all of it more pragmatic. 

Ok, I understand. I'll discuss it with my friend who is helping me with design.
 

Regarding the proposal to lend me a pair of the GOTO SG-146LD-4 drivers to let me to experiment with them. I would decline. To make a proper horn for 146LD and to accommodate  it would be a project that would take more efforts then I willing to spend nowadays. Even if I own the driver I will let it sit in a box, wanting for time we move to next house. 

Ok, just let me know when it become possible to experiment with it.

The idea to make similar driver is not a bad idea - for bass reproduction it is very simple - no phase plug at etc... Everything hits the wall when we are taking about diaphragms. Are you willing to spend next 5 year of your life experimenting with diaphragm making? I do not have it now in me. Perhaps I will do in a future  but it would be in "project management" format and won't be doing everything myself as I use to do. The reality is that with an infant in my hands I do not do critical audio nowadays. Thomas just become to crawl two weeks back and become a bit less needy and it gave me some free room to spend for some more or less critical listening....
 
For sure project "Thomas" is priority number 0 SmileWhen I'm thinking about spending 5 years for the experiments with LF diaphragm I feel it not like spending, but having great challenge in our hobby SmileAnd great time of course!
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 108
Post ID: 22097
Reply to: 22093
What kind of horn to make for GOTO ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did some experiments today again with GOTO in my existing horn and it is obvious for me that I need different horn for GOTO.
Existing horn was modelled and designed for Supravox and I see perfect curve with it.But GOTO in it shows same curve for 50-100Hz but then drops significantly till 400Hz and then rises to the same level till 1000Hz.
But even with this terrible frequency response I hear sound of another league!I tried to return to Supravox, because I have no idea what horn I need to make for this GOTOs, but can't any more.
I want GOTO's transparent, lite and airy bass.
Can someone suggest me what kind of horn to make for GOTO?Here in Moscow it is very cheap, so I can try to make different ones.The only problem is that it can't be longer than 2 meters.
Please, help!
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 109
Post ID: 22098
Reply to: 22097
Frequency response of GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here is frequency response without horn:
GOTOfreq.png

Here is in my 46Hz horn (green is GOTO, blue is Supravox):
GOTOinhorn.png
10-17-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 187
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 110
Post ID: 22099
Reply to: 22098
Throat cancellations?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Here is frequency response without horn:
GOTOfreq.png

Here is in my 46Hz horn (green is GOTO, blue is Supravox):
GOTOinhorn.png

Perhaps that GOTO hole centred on about 225Hz is to do with using the incorrect throat in the horn?  First thing I would do is extend the profile of that big horn so that it reaches the correct throat size for the GOTO units.  It is going to be much longer than 2m long though:  small diameter driver = longer horn...there is no way around it.  You may be able to mitigate this by using a tractrix horn profile because they are shorter than most of the others..
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 111
Post ID: 22100
Reply to: 22097
Do not panic...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
I did some experiments today again with GOTO in my existing horn and it is obvious for me that I need different horn for GOTO.

Here we go. Now you got it.

 Murataltuev wrote:
Existing horn was modelled and designed for Supravox and I see perfect curve with it.But GOTO in it shows same curve for 50-100Hz but then drops significantly till 400Hz and then rises to the same level till 1000Hz. But even with this terrible frequency response I hear sound of another league!I tried to return to Supravox, because I have no idea what horn I need to make for this GOTOs, but can't any more.
I want GOTO's transparent, lite and airy bass.

Can someone suggest me what kind of horn to make for GOTO?Here in Moscow it is very cheap, so I can try to make different ones.The only problem is that it can't be longer than 2 meters.
Please, help! 

I do not think that anybody would “suggest” what horn you need for them. There are tons of Goto systems out there, mostly in Asia and most of them do not work properly. There are many reasons why and one of them that there is not a lot of sensible horn system designer worked with Gotos. Even those who did play with Goto hardly even saw the SG-146LD. 
 
It is 4” exit with very 1.9T diaphragm. The drivers with such high flux are very atypical for bass. If you played with variable flux (electromagnet) them you know that lower frequency is beneficial for lower flax. If you driver let say 300Hz then you get much better bass at 1.3T then at 1.7T. Gut it would be all true for conventional compression driver that we get used to. The 146LD is not a conventional and has the diaphragm and suspension designed to work in bass at a very magnetic flux. How good the design and how to take advantage of positive thing of the design and how to hide the negative is the key for self-education. 
 
The Supravox was 12” the Goto 4” how did you convert one into another? You would need a 3-4 feet adopter to do so. Anyhow, do not be so much worry about the sickout on the Goto response – you will have a bigger fish to fry. You 6 feet objective are kind of irrelevant to say frankly. Goto has 4” exit – it is what it is and this gives to you the throat of the horn. Then decide what lower frequency you would like to get from it. Let say it will be 40Hz. Calculate let say exponential horn for 4” and 40Hz and you will have your target length. For instance it will be 9 feet. Now you will know the dimension of your midbass channels and now you would need to think HOW to locate the midbass channels relative to the rest of the system in order to preserve the time alignment, the room usability and esthetics, the direction the MF will come from, the integration aspect and many other subjects. In my mind to bid a horn is very simple, to put it all together as unified design idea is very complex. I am not trying to suck my own dick but look at my installation as example: I do have 40Hz horns working nicely with the system and they are not visible or detectable in the room. No HornResp would give you any advice – the system design is the derivative of your mind and your creation. So, instead of thinking what kind horn you might need to build you need to think about completely different subject: “How will I integrate my horn into my system and my life if I did build it?” You need to have a clear and agreeable with yourself plane and only then build the horn. After a proper horn will be build you would need to spend time with the horn and driver to teach them to sound in the way you expect. It will take time to learn about loading, back chamber (in your case back exit damping), crossovering and many other things. 
 
Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 112
Post ID: 22102
Reply to: 22099
Adding length to reach 4" throat
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

Perhaps that GOTO hole centred on about 225Hz is to do with using the incorrect throat in the horn?  First thing I would do is extend the profile of that big horn so that it reaches the correct throat size for the GOTO units.  It is going to be much longer than 2m long though:  small diameter driver = longer horn...there is no way around it.  You may be able to mitigate this by using a tractrix horn profile because they are shorter than most of the others..
Ok. I'll add 0.5m to reach 4" throat and see how it works.Unfortunately, I can't add more. 2.5m is already much longer than I planed, so may be I'll cut 0.5m from the front to keep 2m length.
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 113
Post ID: 22103
Reply to: 22100
Not more than 2m long horn needed
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The Supravox was 12” the Goto 4” how did you convert one into another? You would need a 3-4 feet adopter to do so.
I used GOTO's converter from dual 4" to aprox 200sq sm2 throat. It is still 2 times smaller than existing throat.Now I'm preparing 0.5m long part to reach 4" from existing horn throat and connect single driver.
Goto has 4” exit – it is what it is and this gives to you the throat of the horn. Then decide what lower frequency you would like to get from it. Let say it will be 40Hz. Calculate let say exponential horn for 4” and 40Hz and you will have your target length. For instance it will be 9 feet. 
I can't go longer than 2m. Any suggestions about configuration of horn with this length limit ? May be higher frequency ?
installation as example: I do have 40Hz horns working nicely with the system and they are not visible or detectable in the room. No HornResp would give you any advice – the system design is the derivative of your mind and your creation.
HornResp can help to get desirable frequency response and other parameters. But I don't know how to use it for GOTO drivers. I don't think that I can get Thiele-Small parameters for modelling. So, only experiments...I think I missed about your 40Hz horn. I don't see any information or reference at Macondo dedicated web-page (http://goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx).Can you suggest what thread to read about it ?
So, instead of thinking what kind horn you might need to build you need to think about completely different subject: “How will I integrate my horn into my system and my life if I did build it?” You need to have a clear and agreeable with yourself plane and only then build the horn. After a proper horn will be build you would need to spend time with the horn and driver to teach them to sound in the way you expect. It will take time to learn about loading, back chamber (in your case back exit damping), crossovering and many other things. 
 
Rgs, the Cat
Yes, all other things after I get proper sound from this driver. I'll try to get it from 2m long horn. In this case I can keep initial design of the whole system. Longer horn will need another room. For now I don't want to move from existing room. May be later I'll build dedicated single room house and think how to integrate horn in construnction of this house. But not now. Now 
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 114
Post ID: 22105
Reply to: 22103
There are many options available.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
I can't go longer than 2m. Any suggestions about configuration of horn with this length limit ? May be higher frequency ?

 
Curve the horn. If you Goto channel will not care any HF over let say 150-200Hz then you might curve the horns, similar to what WE did with 15A.


 Murataltuev wrote:
HornResp can help to get desirable frequency response and other parameters. But I don't know how to use it for GOTO drivers. I don't think that I can get Thiele-Small parameters for modelling. So, only experiments...

 
Actually you might get some TS parameters for Gotos if you find right people to ask. I do not have them but I am sure there is somebody out there who do. The problem is that those parameters are very much irrelevant  and you should not be interested in them.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:
I think I missed about your 40Hz horn. I don't see any information or reference at Macondo dedicated web-page (http://goodsoundclub.com/MacondoAcousticSystem.aspx).Can you suggest what thread to read about it ?

 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13597
 
 Murataltuev wrote:
Longer horn will need another room.

God, I wonder how many people out there keep saying it!!! That is of course unfortunate truth… BUT the whole idea to be creative is to find a way to incorporate a larger horn then the room can afford.  There was a saying in Russia that Jews do not work harder but smarter. Not that I agree with the saying but it is not a debate about racism but rather an illustration that there is always another way to think the problem. Do not forget that the thread I linked above was followed after this thread: 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=11190#11190 
 
It is possible that you can go over the walls or do anything “creative”, well then curve the horn or introduce one or two bends. The 90% bending is very complicated subject  and it very much might kill everything, Still it is doable if to approach it with proper direction and proper techniques.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 115
Post ID: 22106
Reply to: 22105
Push the boundaries!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Curve the horn. If you Goto channel will not care any HF over let say 150-200Hz then you might curve the horns, similar to what WE did with 15A.
How to time-align then ?

Actually you might get some TS parameters for Gotos if you find right people to ask. I do not have them but I am sure there is somebody out there who do. The problem is that those parameters are very much irrelevant  and you should not be interested in them. 
Ok. Anyway noway for me to get them.


God, I wonder how many people out there keep saying it!!! That is of course unfortunate truth… BUT the whole idea to be creative is to find a way to incorporate a larger horn then the room can afford.  There was a saying in Russia that Jews do not work harder but smarter. Not that I agree with the saying but it is not a debate about racism but rather an illustration that there is always another way to think the problem. Do not forget that the thread I linked above was followed after this thread: 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=11190#11190 
 
It is possible that you can go over the walls or do anything “creative”, well then curve the horn or introduce one or two bends. The 90% bending is very complicated subject  and it very much might kill everything, Still it is doable if to approach it with proper direction and proper techniques.
Ok, Romy, thank you...you are motivating me to push the boundaries! I'll be creative and try to find some solution Smile
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 187
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 116
Post ID: 22107
Reply to: 22106
DATS
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:


Actually you might get some TS parameters for Gotos if you find right people to ask. I do not have them but I am sure there is somebody out there who do. The problem is that those parameters are very much irrelevant  and you should not be interested in them. 
Ok. Anyway noway for me to get them.



Have a look at this.
10-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 117
Post ID: 22109
Reply to: 22106
Please no T/S talk again.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Actually you might get some TS parameters for Gotos if you find right people to ask. I do not have them but I am sure there is somebody out there who do. The problem is that those parameters are very much irrelevant  and you should not be interested in them. 

Ok. Anyway noway for me to get them.

That is my constant dilemma while I socializing with audio people. Om a surface the question about T/S parameters for Goto is reasonable. It means now I need to correlate whoever I know Goto user and the people who know how to measure T/S and then drop a few names. However, I also do know something about sound horns and I know that T/S is absolutely irrelevant for the horns design, particularly with this type of driver. Moreover if the horn is made properly and the driver performs at its best then the T/S parameters of the original driver must be overridden. So, what would be the advise to me: to be a nice guy and to patronize the irrelevant question that only lead the people astray or just  to discard the question?  Again, trash the HornResp, forget the T/S parameters and start to build sound instead of  practice near-audio community amusement. I have ban (did not support) any conversation about HornResp at my site long time ago. If you would like waste your time with this then there are plenty of other sites to do so.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 118
Post ID: 22120
Reply to: 22107
3D modeling
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

Have a look at this.

Interesting product! I've just bought Arta Box for impedance measurement, but this has more features!I'll check with my friend who is helping me with modeling if this will be enough to get all parameters needed.He has designed software for modeling horns in 3D space...much more advanced that HornResp.
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 119
Post ID: 22121
Reply to: 22109
2nd experiment with GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

That is my constant dilemma while I socializing with audio people. Om a surface the question about T/S parameters for Goto is reasonable. It means now I need to correlate whoever I know Goto user and the people who know how to measure T/S and then drop a few names. However, I also do know something about sound horns and I know that T/S is absolutely irrelevant for the horns design, particularly with this type of driver. Moreover if the horn is made properly and the driver performs at its best then the T/S parameters of the original driver must be overridden. So, what would be the advise to me: to be a nice guy and to patronize the irrelevant question that only lead the people astray or just  to discard the question?  Again, trash the HornResp, forget the T/S parameters and start to build sound instead of  practice near-audio community amusement. I have ban (did not support) any conversation about HornResp at my site long time ago. If you would like waste your time with this then there are plenty of other sites to do so.

Ok, lets just experiment with what I have and see where to move next.
I appreciate very much your help with this very unique opportunity to get proper sound from bass compression driver.
Today I run system in 3 channel configuration:
1. JBL 2453 in 550Hz horn 1200-14000Hz
2. JBL 2450 in 350Hz horn 500-1200Hz
3. GOTO SG-146LD in 46horn 50-400Hz
I've added 0,7m length to 2m horn, so now my mid-bass horn has 4" throat and 1x1m mouth and 2.7m length.
IMG_0439.JPG

Strange, that I still have drop at 200Hz, but now I think that it is some room mod, so tomorrow I'll try to move horn around and check what will be changed.
I've used 2nd order crossover (yellow).

goto2nd.png


I really like the sound I've got today. My 1st experiment was also good, because first time in my life I heard right tone for low octaves of piano, but I also had some dirty sound around low-mids, because 1st order was not enough to remove low-mids from mid-bass horn.Now with 2nd order low-mids are clear. Another impressive fact, that I don't feel the need for ULF channel! Whole orchestra sounds complete and full! May be resonance at 27Hz introduces some ULF waves. 
The only thing is I feel that upper bass can be better with shorter horn. Because for some piano notes I hear same kind of dirt like I had in my 1st experiment. So, better to remove upper bass frequency from mid-bass horn and introduce dedicated upper bass channel. May be with the same GOTO 146 driver!I still have no idea how to put another 1m mouth horn and keep this mid-bass horn, but I'll introduce some ideas later.

Another concern I have is about time-alignment...is it OK if mid-bass driver will be placed about 1m back from all other drivers ?
I've read the thread about mid-bass horn and as I see it is placed in the back and not time-aligned, because distance is different from mid-bass drivers in the back and other drivers in the front. Am I right ?
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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 120
Post ID: 22122
Reply to: 22121
Reinhard
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://twogoodears.blogspot.mx/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html

Reinhard and Kaluss in Germany has been playing around with the Goto bass drivers for a while.
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 121
Post ID: 22123
Reply to: 22121
Photo of experiment N2
fiogf49gjkf0d
Forgot to attach to have some feeling Smile
IMG_0446.JPG

And sound is truly amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gwnRSDGvF4
10-19-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 122
Post ID: 22124
Reply to: 22121
Make up your mind.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Murataltuev wrote:
3. GOTO SG-146LD in 46horn 50-400Hz
I've added 0,7m length to 2m horn, so now my mid-bass horn has 4" throat and 1x1m mouth and 2.7m length.

 
4" throat into 1x1m mouth…hmmm, you hardly will be able to get from it 50Hz. Even if you go for ¼ size  and 2 drivers then I think it is a bit too small. Also, looking at the picture it looks like your horn open up too soon. For exponential profile you would have a looooooong neck with very slow opening right after throat. I do not see it.

 Murataltuev wrote:
Strange, that I still have drop at 200Hz, but now I think that it is some room mod, so tomorrow I'll try to move horn around and check what will be changed.
OI would not worry about the drop at drop at 200Hz. I am pretty sure that you have some problem with exit of driver and horn throat integration. Anyhow, it is just a bug somewhere, you will find and fix it.

 Murataltuev wrote:

I really like the sound I've got today. My 1st experiment was also good, because first time in my life I heard right tone for low octaves of piano, but I also had some dirty sound around low-mids, because 1st order was not enough to remove low-mids from mid-bass horn.Now with 2nd order low-mids are clear. Another impressive fact, that I don't feel the need for ULF channel! Whole orchestra sounds complete and full! May be resonance at 27Hz introduces some ULF waves.

…and you got it from listening 1sq m mouth as a lower transducer. Well, give to yourself more time and try to explore other feelings then immediate excitement.
 
 Murataltuev wrote:

The only thing is I feel that upper bass can be better with shorter horn. Because for some piano notes I hear same kind of dirt like I had in my 1st experiment. So, better to remove upper bass frequency from mid-bass horn and introduce dedicated upper bass channel. May be with the same GOTO 146 driver!I still have no idea how to put another 1m mouth horn and keep this mid-bass horn, but I'll introduce some ideas later.

 
I have no idea what you are taking and why you run your Goto to 500Hz. You had at the bottom of your horns an upperbass horn why don’t you use it?

 Murataltuev wrote:
Another concern I have is about time-alignment...is it OK if mid-bass driver will be placed about 1m back from all other drivers ?

 
Well, I prefer you your to answer this question. You have horns, try them and make up your mind.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 123
Post ID: 22125
Reply to: 22123
What?!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh, God, what the measurement microphone does at the mouth of the horn? Is it where you measure your responses?  I hope not. Also, even over the bad sound of YouTube video it is very clear at the example you provided us that there is very shallow upper bass in that sound. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 124
Post ID: 22126
Reply to: 22122
I agree 100%
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
http://twogoodears.blogspot.mx/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html

Reinhard and Kaluss in Germany has been playing around with the Goto bass drivers for a while.

Thank you for the link!I'm completely with this statement:
"...SG146LD is the only compression bass driver which does not produce boom-boom if fed right. The SG146LD contrarily is on first impression not to be heard as bass, first you think, hey it is wrong, it is not connected, but then you realize, what they are doing, they integrate completely homogeneously into the sound, totally natural, like a royal soufflé, no more "cuts" between bass and mid-range (especially in the voices), just "one" sound. Marvellous. Really marvelous..."
I said exactly this words after first impression: no bass, just right tone of lower octaves!
This is really amazing!
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Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 125
Post ID: 22127
Reply to: 22124
Mid-bass aligned or not ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 
4" throat into 1x1m mouth…hmmm, you hardly will be able to get from it 50Hz. Even if you go for ¼ size  and 2 drivers then I think it is a bit too small. Also, looking at the picture it looks like your horn open up too soon. For exponential profile you would have a looooooong neck with very slow opening right after throat. I do not see it. 

This profile is close to Tractrix. Do you suggest other profile ?
  I have no idea what you are taking and why you run your Goto to 500Hz. You had at the bottom of your horns an upperbass horn why don’t you use it?

I run to 500Hz, because I don't have any horn/driver to cover lower range. I have 2 options for below 500Hz:
1. I have long 100Hz GOTO's horn for 1" throat and I've ordered WE555 clone to try in it.
2. I'm waiting for 200Hz LeCleach to see if JBL drivers are capable below 500Hz in it.
What will be your suggestion for upper bass channel using compression driver ?
Well, I prefer you your to answer this question. You have horns, try them and make up your mind.
 

Ok, I'll listen by myself. In any way, I have no simple way to time-align with mid-bass horn...even no any idea with reconstructing house. My listening room is on 2nd floor of 3 floors house. Room on 3rd floor on top of my listening room is also in use...so, unfortunately, I'll keep mid-bass unaligned until I build dedicated listening house.
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