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01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 51
Post ID: 9522
Reply to: 9520
On taste and...purpose.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Joe Roberts wrote:
This makes it inappropriate for evaluating a system or a component from a technical point of view when compared to jazz band or, even better, to a symphonic orchestra which are far richer in diversity, scale or any other parameter that you can think of.


Or you can listen to circus music on the mighty Wurlizer pipe organ, Planet Drum (hate that fcking record), or the HFN&RR garage door record for bass and dynamics.

But what if like me, you really don't fire up orchestra too much. What if I mostly listen to Washboard Sam?

I can't agree that a system optimized for orchestral is automatically better for all music. Many traditions stress timbre and tonal color over scale. Even chamber music, which I prefer to grand orchestral, is better served by a speaker that does the color, texture, and sparkle right even if it can't do the cannons in 1812.

Frankly, although  technically "easy" by some measures, vocal reproduction is the thing that really captivates me. Here is one area where single drivers can really deliver.

And I am sure that you will found a zillion people who report multiple orgasms and the sensation of rebirth just after they heard those plastic cone mini towers.


Amazingly, yes. I wish life was so easy that I could be happy with  a pair of Totems...but his only goes to illustrate the point that one man's gourmet meal is another man's Pizza Hut 2 for 1 special.

I heard the sales pitch at CES..."Listen to that bass folks, it's clean, it's natural, It's deep, and its precise..."
Joe, Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy a good pizza. Unfortunately I won't find one in a Pizzahut. "That" man's 2 for 1 pleasure says a lot about his evaluating capabilities... I also enjoy several different kinds of music, mostly acoustic, but enjoying music and evaluating a system's performance are two completely different tasks. Would you hire a marathon athlete for your team after timing him on a 10km run? Cheers, Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 9523
Reply to: 9520
Is Mr. Roberts German, Korean, American or Jew?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Joe Roberts wrote:
I feel like I have heard every argument on the planet and I am not getting any new intellectual challenges here.

Joe, it is what you think but it is not what I see.  I do not insist that you shall experience any intellectual challenges in this argument but while expressing your audio view you do clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding of some very basic premise of Real Audio. So, I would not mind if you engage some own cerebral help and think about the subject a bit less shallow.

What I am talking about? I am talking about the fact that whatever you practice in audio (at least based upon what you expressed in this thread) I call “External Audio”, or a situation where audio try to create a brainless carbon copy of live sound, using the pointers of live sound properties as evaluation point for “comparing” and contradicting of live sound and reproduced sound. There is nothing prohibitive or anti-constitutional in it, the “hobbyists” are entitled to entertain themselves as they wish. After all, it is better then drinking or collecting baseball cards. Still, it has as much relativity to the tasks of “Another Audio” as the ink squirted by threaten octopuses has a chance to accidently organize itself into Shakespeare’s poems.

Since I recognized that you are not “there” yet I calm down with my interest, as I always do. So you do have in my view some room to grow in your understanding the objectives and methods of audio.  I might refer you to multiple moments at my site but it might not be necessary as I am a firmed believer that the most important things can’t not be taught of “direct delegated” but might be only rediscovered (or as I call it “recomposed”).

Just as the exempla. The simple word “imaging” might have at multiple level of understanding very different definition. For people who practice “External Audio”: Harry Pearson, Jonathan Scull,  Joe Roberts and 99.99999% of your other audio brothers and sisters the word “imaging” means soundstage, or a fandom depicturing of byproduct of phase processing by playback system. At higher level of understanding, the level where awareness of an orchestral conductor operates the “imaging” is an expressive tool of musical intention.  In audio at this level playback is able to demonstrate complex imaging without soundstage. To experience it you would need to go most likely much further then Mirrophonic’s  or Silbatone’s capacity and defiantly much further then juts “gives me pleasure” demands from musicality. At even higher level the “imaging” and “soundstage” merge again but soundstage there become not the soundstage of musical even but a conditional horizon of a listener listening consciousness. There is one even higher level, where the recognition of “imaging” and “soundstage” collapse again and replaced by other things but I do not want to go there now.

The point I am trying to make is that the definition of audio success to a high degree is a properly of level of success understanding.  I do not know what you practice personally but in your public appearances, including the one at my site, you demonstrate that audio objectives have very primitive caliber, the fact that you shot into this target for 30 years makes mater not more respectable but more laughable from my point of view. You need to understand that your audio thinning was limited by the fact that your entire public audio endeavor had objective to convince others.  In the “Mein Kampf” it was brilliantly put: “All propaganda must be popular and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence among those it is addressed to. Consequently, the greater the mass it is intended to reach, the lower its purely intellectual level will have to be.”  That was the Harry Pearson, Jonathan Scull and Joe Roberts level of applications but there is so much more in audio then shooting to the lower common denominator. 

Anyhow, I think you do a good job for Silbatone’s folks but only within the leash that you put on yourself. I do not see a need to argue the subject of single-driver potency here I see the leash. It would be like an attempt to teach an alligator to be a vegetarian – equally un-noble and pointless task.  I think if you looking for an intellectual challenges for yourself in audio them you might start from stopping to recognize yourself as the preverbal Jew who fixed own broken watch was and paid himself $20 for doing it.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #: 53
Post ID: 9525
Reply to: 9523
Buddhist, dude
fiogf49gjkf0d

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy a good pizza. Unfortunately I won't find one in a Pizzahut. "That" man's 2 for 1 pleasure says a lot about his evaluating capabilities...
I also enjoy several different kinds of music, mostly acoustic, but enjoying music and evaluating a system's performance are two completely different tasks.


Tuga, this notion assumes a universal standard. The Pizza Hut listeners were evaluating performance, only by a different standard than you or I use. I am not even sure what it was, but their amazement at the blue mini-towers seemed genuine.

So, who am I to argue or criticize? In a discussion such as this, of course, my point is obviously dialed for the experienced listener who knows the tricks employed and probably looking for something else,  but if I stood up during that boom boom demo and said "Wait, this bass SUCKS! This man is a charlatan!!" Where is the value in that?

I would deserve to be ignored and rebuked, because I would be criticising them for not achieving something that they were obviously not trying to do, and apparently they were sucessful in their chosen endeavor and reaching the audience which they sought to reach.


the fact that you shot into this target for 30 years makes mater not more respectable but more laughable from my point of view.


Romy, my claim of too long experience, dealing with many listeners and perspectives, does not imply that I know more about audio, only that at this point I have a very good idea of how I think of individual audio goals in the larger picture of possible approaches and perspectives.

I do not believe that I can call myself an expert in any way except in this field of anthropological study. I am only a mid-level electronics hacker and, at this point, not as picky about my sound sources as I used to be. Probably can't hear as well as I used to if my eyesight is any indication. I wasted my youth trying tons of gear, so I have an idea of the basic capabilities of the technology, yet I freely admit that many have taken these possibilites far beyond where I myself have gone.

I think I know a lot about how people use and think about audio systems in the context of various projects in which they use systems to accomplish whatever goals they create. Go ahead and laugh...that is another data point confirming my research.

I can't always know the goals and I certainly can't and don't need to share everyman's goals, but I can recognize that goals and tastes are indeed individual. My point about musical enjoyment as the goal allows for exercise of different perogatives, cultural perspectives, and tastes in music, and makes sense as a general characterization of what people do audio work to achieve.

You might consider this a lowest common denominator, but I argue against the "lowest" label. What makes any particular goal higher, beyond the goal-owners high opinon of himself, his own preferences, and his listening acumen?

This is the old "evolution leads to me" argument, which looks silly when it is recognized that many and perhaps most societies have a similar theory.

Besides, I believe that listening enjoyment in itelf is a high goal. Otherwise, why bother with all this ugly audio junk but for enjoyment?

So, this elaborate "external vs internal audio scheme" which incidentally was addressed to a large extent in the 1980s TAS jibber-jabber about imaging and is nothing new or revolutionary, does not have any claim to universality or a higher realm of achievement.

If you think it does, kneel down to your holy prophet, Harry Pearson and kiss the smelly Bierkenstock.

He is your god and you probably don't know it yet.

Did you actually read 1980s TAS or just thought sniff it? I think I know the answer.

Yeah, he had the "more evolved" thing going too. Conned a lot of people into listening to things they didn't really like, trying to find their place in heaven. That was the sociological downside.

The concepts of imaging and soundstaging have been generalized and bastardized since, but TAS was trying to piece together a phenomenological program not unlike the Romy doctrine. The problem they had is that some of the writers went overboard with literal borrowing from visual metaphor and lost the thread. Then these words became generalized stupid terms without any qualification or specific reference, which led us to where we are today in the terminology.

Maybe you add a few details and some different language, but the core is inherited. For me, it is just one of many strange and obscure things that crazy people demand from audio reproduction.

Now, here's a story relevant to the topic of "internal audio." When I was recording the Phila. Orchestra, EMI came in to do a recording. I tried but can no longer remember the music. This was around 1984-1985. They wanted us (we were the recording division of WFLN-FM) to do some sound tests and place mikes around the hall for ambience tracks that they could mix in.

Well, I decided I would record right along with them so I flew a Neumann stereo mic from the ceiling 20 feet in front of the stage straight into a Studer two track. EMI hooked up a lot of mics. They had omnis sprinked throughout the orchestra, some kind of mic arrangement on a tree at the front of the stage, a giant mixing board, and they monitored on B&W 801s that arrived in huge anvil cases.

I got to compare my recording with EMIs first mix. My technique, which I worked out after numerous recordings, was a mix of event perspective (hall perspective) and stage perspective. it was not super up front nor distant. Worked good for radio broadcast. Made you feel like you were at the Academy.

The EMI did more of what you seem to be highlighting....more movement through the winds, spotlights on different sections. It was more "internal" and less soundstage oriented. In fact, there was not a hall impression very much.

My colleagues and I listened to the tape then compared ours. We liked ours because it sounded like the Orchestra in the Academy of Music, an effect we knew and liked. We thought that the EMi recording was cheap and sensational, although it was quite impressive.

No actual listener could ever achieve either of these perspectives, but the "individual horizon" presented by our single mic was more natural and realistic. The EMI was a technological artifact and an invented perspective.

Which one captured the musical intention of Muti better? It seems you might say EMI. If this is the case, how could Muti's intention forsee this unnatural 12 mic configuration that yielded the "imaging without soundstage" effect? Wouldn't the simple stereo mic configuration represent what Muti would expect listeners in the seats to hear and possibly be closer to what he himself heard?

Just so you know, I like your evaluation program. Seems like you can have a lot of fun with it and it certainly frames your audio experiments in a challenging and potentially fruitful groove, though limited, arbitrary, and incomplete like any other perspective.

As for "higher" level, check your tie for spit. This is a higher order of navel gazing perhaps.

Reminds me of reading Husserl as a student. It is indeed rewarding in a masturbatory way to deconstruct perception, but this can only be achieved outside of the flow of aesthetic experience. To listen to music you have to let this highly unnatural and picayune mode of analysis go and flow with the experience--or at least that's the way I feel about it.

Step back and think how obscure and meaningless for most listeners this concept of "external audio" is. This is not a mark of superiority but a sign that you are so far down in the hole that you are not seeing the larger picture of audio experience only the walls of your tunnel. But it is your tunnel and if are comfortable in it, that is what matters.

As I mentioned, I have come to be in contact with many audiophiles in my career. The distinction I draw among them is happy ones and ones who are neurotic and suffering. Anything that leads to happiness and enjoyment to me is valid and anything that causes tension and pain is evil.

One reason I am "retired" is that I grew weary of the neurotic ones, because I am not cut out to be a shrink. Fortunately, the mindset I tried to promote with Sound Practices allowed me to meet many happy audio pilgrims and these very fulfilling experiences and the joy in working with happy people directly contributed to my philosophy outlined here.

J Rob
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 9526
Reply to: 9525
When Everything Is Equal
fiogf49gjkf0d
The things I like best about a good wide-range drivers are coherence and immediacy; like nothing else I know of.

But awareness of the limited range (certainly not FR), dynamics (certainly not natural on most music) and any response anomalies (over the top, in most cases) quickly come to the fore, IMO.

Meanwhile, it has come to the point for me that in order to really enjoy "reproduced" music I need many or even most of the informational cues I get from live music, albeit they wind up "arranged" somewhat differently via "playback".

Yes, people should certainly get what they want/deserve out of music, but since Real Music is Art, it does not simply yield itself up, just like that, but it must be met in dialog.

And IMO there is simply more to the musical dialog than can be successfully gotten via any single driver I have heard or, based on experince, heard of.  They are so limited by genre.

This is not to say I begrudge anyone his happiness vis-a-vis a single driver, but rather I admit that I tend to take that person's recommendations under advisement.

This is to say that I did from the outset of this thread take the references to the Silbatone as a sort of fraternal recommendation, a la Feastrex, etc.,  (so, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Best regards,
Paul S
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 55
Post ID: 9527
Reply to: 9525
Recalling a different focus on audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Tuga wrote:
Joe, Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy a good pizza. Unfortunately I won't find one in a Pizzahut. "That" man's 2 for 1 pleasure says a lot about his evaluating capabilities... I also enjoy several different kinds of music, mostly acoustic, but enjoying music and evaluating a system's performance are two completely different tasks.
I absolutely disagree. First of all, I enjoy Pizza Hut Pizza quite a bit. Secondly, the idea that certain music like classical music is more evolved is a TRAP. A stereo is only useful if it can play the music we enjoy well. Each type of music presents different challenges to the audio system. A stereo that plays only classical music well necessarily has distortions that favor classical music. There is nothing wrong with this, but we must recognize that these are euphonic distortions. ALL forms of music should be used to evaluate an audio system; this will be tempered by an understanding of what aspects of audio we prefer to focus on.
 Joe Roberts wrote:
This notion assumes a universal standard. The Pizza Hut listeners were evaluating performance, only by a different standard than you or I use. I am not even sure what it was, but their amazement at the blue mini-towers seemed genuine. I can't always know the goals and I certainly can't and don't need to share everyman's goals, but I can recognize that goals and tastes are indeed individual.
Joe, I would recommend you look at my old thread: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=8773#8773
 Joe Roberts wrote:
Harry Pearson had the "more evolved" thing going too. Conned a lot of people into listening to things they didn't really like, trying to find their place in heaven.
Do not let our individual beliefs in music get in the way of sharing information about audio. It is more like a religious debate. I prefer to remain agnostic. Wink Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 56
Post ID: 9528
Reply to: 9523
Imaging and soundstage
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
At even higher level the “imaging” and “soundstage” merge again but soundstage there become not the soundstage of musical even but a conditional horizon of a listener listening consciousness. There is one even higher level, where the recognition of “imaging” and “soundstage” collapse again and replaced by other things but I do not want to go there now.
Romy, I think above you said "soundstage of musical" when I think you meant to say "audio soundstage." Is this correct? If not, then perhaps I did not follow what you were saying; can you please clarify?

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 57
Post ID: 9529
Reply to: 9525
Was the Lucy from Ethiopian a first Silbatone listener?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Joe Roberts wrote:
What makes any particular goal higher, beyond the goal-owners high opinon of himself, his own preferences, and his listening acumen?

A valid comment, I have nothing against it. There is however “lower goals”, or the goals that are below the available goals.

This is the old "evolution leads to me" argument, which looks silly when it is recognized that many and perhaps most societies have a similar theory.

 Joe Roberts wrote:
Did you actually read 1980s TAS or just thought sniff it? I think I know the answer.

Nope, I did not. I arrived in US in 1992, spoke no English and was able to read cognitively after 1994-95.

 Joe Roberts wrote:
Which one captured the musical intention of Muti better? It seems you might say EMI. If this is the case, how could Muti's intention forsee this unnatural 12 mic configuration that yielded the "imaging without soundstage" effect? Wouldn't the simple stereo mic configuration represent what Muti would expect listeners in the seats to hear and possibly be closer to what he himself heard?

It is not accurate example; there are quite a few reasons why. However, the evaluation of what microphoning techniques was better does not lie in audio domain….

 Joe Roberts wrote:
Step back and think how obscure and meaningless for most listeners this concept of "external audio" is. This is not a mark of superiority but a sign that you are so far down in the hole that you are not seeing the larger picture of audio experience only the walls of your tunnel. But it is your tunnel and if are comfortable in it, that is what matters.

It is incorrect. I exceptionally well recognize the boundaries of my cave and I also set very precise margins for the content of this site. I for instance do not propose that one cable elevator is better than another just because according to Kurt Gödel’s theory of incompleteness there are “other considerations” that set the value of the first cable elevator to the astronomic heights.

 Joe Roberts wrote:
As I mentioned, I have come to be in contact with many audiophiles in my career. The distinction I draw among them is happy ones and ones who are neurotic and suffering. Anything that leads to happiness and enjoyment to me is valid and anything that causes tension and pain is evil. One reason I am "retired" is that I grew weary of the neurotic ones, because I am not cut out to be a shrink. Fortunately, the mindset I tried to promote with Sound Practices allowed me to meet many happy audio pilgrims and these very fulfilling experiences and the joy in working with happy people directly contributed to my philosophy outlined here.

I think you mistyped here. Let me to correct your writing. I think you meant to write the following.

"As I mentioned, I have come to be in contact with many audiophiles in my career. The distinction I draw among them is happy ones and ones who are neurotic and suffering. Anything that leads to happiness and enjoyment to me is valid and anything that causes tension and pain is evil. One reason I am "retired" is that I grew weary of the neurotic ones, because I am not cut out to be a shrink. Fortunately, the mindset I tried to promote with Sound Practices and these very fulfilling experiences and the joy in working with happy people directly contributed to my philosophy.  I returned from my retirement last year after I had my small Aporia orgasm. Before of my Silbatone revelation I was so full with my happiness and enjoyment that I was about to send Anthrax-loaded letters of all subscribes of my Sound Practices. But then the earthshaking Silbatonisation hit me and the Universe flipped upside down in front of my eyes. I never heard anything quite like the Aporia. I shocked me more than the very first set of Ginsu Knives I bought - which is why Aporia interested me. After one week, I was still trying to deconstruct some of the illusions it presented. I could not identify deadly anomalies that ruined the fun in Silbatone’s Sound and my philosophy of sucking-in an enjoyment from a loudspeaker was demonstrating itself with Aporia at its full glory.  I was so impressed that I cut my “Stereo Sound” magazines for toilet papers, sold my Anthrax to Michele Framer, my crossed out from my will my beloved single-legged 12 foot giant lizard and put in there the Josef Manger’s children. The Aporia is an ultimate path to happiness, plus, they look good with oriental rugs. The Aporia is even better then Barrack Obama celebration coin! The sound of Magners is an ultimate remedy from neurotic tendencies and those Korean speakers are  anybody’s ultimate  way to observe the width of cosmos right from the whole of own suffering. Do you know that the Manger’s was discovered in a 12.000-year-old Egyptian tomb? Those prehistoric Egyptian knew that if to connect a Manger driver to a sheep and to rob the sheep's fur then the Manger will produce sound that allowed the listeners to meet many happy pilgrims…."

I can go on but what is the point? BTW, there is an interesting point that you and your Korean friends might get interest in.  It turned out that a friend of my read this thread and informed me that a few years back he invented a driver that has “some” similarity with Manger but it has some very fundamental differences.  According to him his driver is free from any existing Manger design limitation.  It is 100Hz to 20kHz and my it’s nature it is liberated from all know Manger’s issues.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 58
Post ID: 9530
Reply to: 9526
Full range drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
The things I like best about a good wide-range driver are coherence and immediacy: like nothing else I know of, but awareness of the limited range quickly come to the fore.
Paul, my experience with wide range drivers is limited. I agree that it is unrivaled in its limited range. I think if I only listened to the midrange: vocals and such, the good might outweigh the bad. The problem for me is that badly reproduced highs and lows often make the reproduced audio unpleasant to hear.

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 9531
Reply to: 9528
Always think what might be there…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
At even higher level the “imaging” and “soundstage” merge again but soundstage there become not the soundstage of musical even but a conditional horizon of a listener listening consciousness. There is one even higher level, where the recognition of “imaging” and “soundstage” collapse again and replaced by other things but I do not want to go there now.
Romy, I think above you said "soundstage of musical" when I think you meant to say "audio soundstage." Is this correct? If not, then perhaps I did not follow what you were saying; can you please clarify?


Nope, this is what shall be there: "At even higher level the “imaging” and “soundstage” merge again but soundstage then become not the soundstage of musical event but a conditional horizon of a listener’s listening consciousness. There is one even higher level, where the recognition of “imaging” and “soundstage” collapse again and replaced by other things, but I do not want to go there now."

REF: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3823

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #: 60
Post ID: 9533
Reply to: 9529
Daddy Cat and Baby Cat
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Joe Roberts wrote:
Did you actually read 1980s TAS or just thought sniff it? I think I know the answer.

Nope, I did not. I arrived in US in 1992, spoke no English and was able to read cognitively after 1994-95.

Well check it out before you go slagging on HP, because you might discover that he is, in fact, your DADDY.

The original formulation was a bit tedious but had more thought behind it than what "imaging" and "soundstage" developed into as we know it today in the streets. It sounds very similar in intent to your theory outlined in this thread and as I mentioned the overall evaluation program appears related in very many respects.

In general principles, Real Music = The Absolute Sound. Even those labels are similar.

Nothing new under the sun.


I think you mistyped here. Let me to correct your writing. I meant to write the following.

Keep your day job, Hoss.


It turned out that a friend of my read this thread and informed me that a few years back he invented a driver that has “some” similarity with Manger but it has some very fundamental differences.  According to him his driver is free from any existing Manger design limitation.  It is 100Hz to 20kHz and my it’s nature it is liberated from all know Manger’s issues.

Interesting! The Manger specs are 150-30k so that is not a great improvement, but in the Aporia, the backwave characteristics become important. The Manger backwave is not optimal. If this invention is as flat out the back as out the front, that could be an improvement. Does he have any drivers?


J Rob




01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 61
Post ID: 9534
Reply to: 9531
An article on Stereo and Phase
fiogf49gjkf0d
I once came across this article on Stereo and Phase by JM LeCleach. It has interesting considerations on the subject of imaging:

Instruments_Ungels.jpg

IdeaQuels sont les objectifs de la stéréophonie?
- reproduire l'évènement musical ou sonore
- recréer l'ambiance sonore de la session d'enregistrement
- restituer sans déformation la perspective sonore / relief sonore (direction, distance des instruments ...)
- respecter la dimension et la forme des instruments telle que vue par l'ingénieur du son

Même si l'élargissement et l'approfondissement de la scène sonore, provoqués par la réverbération est généralement perçue comme plaisante, car permettant de créer une illusion de l'ambiance du concert direct, on doit toutefois admettre qu'il s'agit d'un écart à la fidélité de l'enregistrement.

Les instruments de musique sont des sources sonores complexes
- ce ne sont pas des sources ponctuelles
- l'émission sonore se fait depuis différentes zones de l'instrument avec des contenus fréquentiels et des directivités différentes

L'image sonore tridimensionnelle
Selon Gordon Holt la capacité d'un système à fournir une image sonore correcte est à mettre en relation avec son aptitude à créer des sources virtuelles non confondues avec les enceintes acoustiques.


Unfortunately for most of you it's in french, but the slides have little text and even an online translation is acceptable.

Romy, if you think it's worth it, please upload it to your server because my account doesn't accept much traffic.

Please rightclick and download: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/phase.pdf

Cheers,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 9535
Reply to: 9533
Ok, it is the time…
fiogf49gjkf0d

Joe,

Funny that imaging has very little to do what I think you do not “get”. Apparently my run about imaging was the only thing you “got” but I brought the whole “imaging thig” only as one of the illustrations. It is kind of sad that the keyword “imaging” aroused in you the Pavlovian Reaction that you have “heard it before”. I do not know that HP use to tell in 80s, I am sure that then as much as in the 90s and now he was “working” for the commodity of simplistic public sale – what level of thinking might be expected from that? Anyhow, I think you probably need to get in touch with him – he will give you more exposure to Silbatone’s version of audio (I do not know certainly but I presume that they shre it with you) and a higher position in Google search.

 Joe Roberts wrote:
Interesting! The Manger specs are 150-30k so that is not a great improvement, but in the Aporia, the backwave characteristics become important. The Manger backwave is not optimal. If this invention is as flat out the back as out the front, that could be an improvement. Does he have any drivers?

And you think that this is the only problem with Manger?  And you feel that the “improvement” might be only in frequency range, is HP some kind of your brother? He does not have a driver. He proposed me to build on. I personally have no interest in it. If your Silbatone folks are interested then I might put them together but it might ruin your ability to have an orgasm from Silbatones…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #: 63
Post ID: 9536
Reply to: 9535
HIStory / YOURstory
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not know that HP use to tell in 80s


I know you don't, that's why I seriously suggest you check it out.

The logic "musical intention of composer/conductor"-->minute analysis of 3D representation of orchestra performance in view of assumed intentionality-->marriage of objective and aesthetic criteria-->Real Music/Absolute Sound--> orchestral as ultimate raison d'etre/test of audio--> highest level of cultural achievement and audio system design--> -crumbs for the little people who "aren't there yet"...and so forth.

Pappy HP spread it out in 1983. He was more sophisticated in the early days than you give him credit for, especially by your own measures of superiority and system teleology.

Unfortunately, the equipment at his disposal at the time sucked but Jadis and Infinity IRS were the best he could scrape up. Today, I'd like to think he would have horns and a good triode amp.

By the 90s, TAS was on welfare and outside financial interests were driving content. It was a wasteland.

Surely you will find points of divergence, given that this your specialization, but what I'm hearing you say sounds quite "School of Sea Cliff" to me.

People who studied both early HP and neo-Romy might have more to add.



Anyhow, I think you probably need to get in touch with him



No thanks. It is enough of a shock to my self-image that I find myself celebrating his work in print.

But I think YOU might be seriously interested in learning more about your intellectual forebears.


J Rob

PS--By the way, Romy the Cat is the benefactor in Google search on Silbatone. Try it.

Don't worry...I won't bill you. Glad to support the effort.

01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 64
Post ID: 9537
Reply to: 9536
HP the Cat?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Joe Roberts wrote:
I do not know that HP use to tell in 80s
I know you don't, that's why I seriously suggest you check it out.
Romy, are you not familiar with the early efforts of Harry Pearson? I lived through all of that of course. I hesitate to say it, but it is true. Most of what you are saying is exactly what HP said in his early writings, if you didn't know. He is like your evil twin, or perhaps you are his evil twin Big Smile .

Seriously, though, it would be very much worth your while to read his early stuff, from BEFORE TAS got bogged down by commercial endorsements, etc. You would find it fun. You don't need to be Ramanujan.

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 65
Post ID: 9538
Reply to: 9534
Stereo imaging
fiogf49gjkf0d
 tuga wrote:
I once came across this article on Stereo and Phase by JM LeCleach. It has interesting considerations on the subject of imaging
Thanks tuga. It is a nice article, but my French is a little rusty. It seems that he does very little more than explain the limitations of stereo versus binaural reproduction.

From this came the schools of thought of quadrophonic reproduction and omnidirectional speakers, etc. of course. I, myself, just accept the limitations of mono and stereo recordings and do the best I can.

Is there some more nuance I missed (owing to my poor French)? If so, I would appreciate a summary of your thoughts on how this can impact our audio systems.

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 9539
Reply to: 9537
Imposable to sell.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:

Romy, are you not familiar with the early efforts of Harry Pearson? I lived through all of that of course. I hesitate to say it, but it is true. Most of what you are saying is exactly what HP said in his early writings, if you didn't know. He is like your evil twin, or perhaps you are his evil twin .

Seriously, though, it would be very much worth your while to read his early stuff, from BEFORE TAS got bogged down by commercial endorsements, etc. You would find it fun. You don't need to be Ramanujan.

Nope, I never know anything about him before mid 90s and frankly speaking considering what I read from him in mid-end 90s, from what my friends told me about him, and from the comment of some people who visited him I never expressed any interest in Harry Pearson. In fact, I was in second part of 90s affected by one Harry Pearson development when he told about the cutting-edge home theaters installations. What I built mine and spent considerable amount efforts to figured out how it works I realized where Mr. Pearson fails in his analysis. Ironically (if to keep the sinister part of the deal aside) he slips at the very same black-ice as Joe does. Joe still does not “get” that a playback do not impersonate the imaging of original performance event but rather create the imaging of reproductive intentions where the system arranger and certain elements of playback act as interpretive forces of relation between a listener and the performance/composition.  I do not know what Harry Pearson advocated in 80s but I know that it was not “it” as this thing is imposable to sell. Anyhow, I doubt that I would be interested to found the TAS from 80s. The right answer are available without any proxies and without anybody’s desire to sell them. I also have no personal interest in Harry’s sinking/writing.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 504
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 67
Post ID: 9540
Reply to: 9539
It's all semantics...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Joe still does not “get” that a playback do not impersonate the imaging of original performance event but rather create the imaging of reproductive intentions where the system arranger and certain elements of playback act as interpretive forces of relation between a listener and the performance/composition.
Yes, but it is kind of implied, since the stereo can NEVER replicate the original event; 99% of the information is lost. Maybe I give people the benefit of the doubt, but I think when they say the goal of stereo is to replicate the original event, they do not really mean it; they are talking about the communication of intent and the presence of intellectual, emotional, and spiritual aspects of the Sound.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I do not know what Harry Pearson advocated in 80s but I know that it was not “it” as this thing is imposable to sell.
Yes, that is EXACTLY why as TAS grew from the 80's to the 90's, it changed drastically to a very commercial venture and a very different perspective. (I miss the staples. I miss the "little pocketbooks.") I still think it would be fun.

Adrian
01-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #: 68
Post ID: 9541
Reply to: 9540
I have three cats to feed myself...
fiogf49gjkf0d


Joe still does not "get" that a playback do not impersonate the imaging of original performance event but rather create the imaging of reproductive intentions where the system arranger and certain elements of playback act as interpretive forces of relation between a listener and the performance/composition.


Yo Romy, I said as much in several of my 200 posts above.

You would be amazed at what I "get." You would also be amazed how well I can pick apart audio discussions and formal evaluation frameworks. This was my anthropological specialty for 20 years.

When I say I'm not getting anything radically new, this doesn't mean the discussion is worthless, only that it is not new.

What is missing in this quoted sentence that you advocated earlier is the composer/conductor intention. If it is just you the listener, dicking around with your stereo in a way that tickles your chin, you're starting to sound a lot like me. That is precisely my philosophy...but you are welcome to join in.

Call it "reproductive intentions" or "interpretive interaction" if you like. That is a useful way to put it.

Also, just because I write some marketing text as a special favor to one of my best friends, you act like I'm Sam Tellig.

Come on, let some hifi bums like me and Harry Pearson make a few shekels. Most of the work I did in audio was for free or even cost me money.

J Rob
02-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 9648
Reply to: 9376
Some summation….
fiogf49gjkf0d

To summarize the thread, at least what is important - not the Robert’s cheap clownship, I have to admit that I spoke with a number of people, the people who are NOT the “exuberant morons” in my view, who went to CES and heard Silbatone Aporia.  The feedback was from negative to a pure surprise why I even ask about them. Inspire that on the web the industry cheerleaders are trying to trumpet an idiotic kitsch about Aporia and stuffed up sites with cheerful comments but reportedly it has absolutely nothing to with realty. Well how different it from any other audio products that were stupidly drummed up after Hi-Fi shows?

I have to admit that it is not a good idea to judge a loudspeaker based upon somebody else’s comment but I do not judge the loudspeaker but I rather question the gravity of Silbatone intentions that were stuffed into the Aporia.  If the level of Silbatone folks’ interests is similar to the Joe Roberts’ interest then the entire Silbatone product line is unfortunately suitable only for sound reinforcements in Dunkin Donalds. I would be careful with guessing and I have no need to guess but there was 3 contractive and important points dropped in this thread:

1)      An ability to damp or QA the wave-propagation  drivers with pressure reflections

2)      Existence of wave-propagation design concept that has no problem typical for Manger designs with their fjordian wave extinguishing

3)      Disability of the  marketing pumpers of audio industry to sell the idea of a single-driver speakers to anybody who has audio IQ higher then the “targeted  audiophile average”

With all this said, I think the thread turned out to be educational and indicative for a reader who migh have the  Dark Mater between his/her ears.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #: 70
Post ID: 9673
Reply to: 9648
I am serious cat...
fiogf49gjkf0d

I have to admit that it is not a good idea to judge a loudspeaker based upon somebody else’s comment


Yet you continue to do it again and again... why?

You know its bogus, I know its bogus, they know it is bogus. Dude, it is BOGUS. Just say no! Stop!

I must point out that there is a serious problem with your "ask a friend" data collection method. It is obvious that what you are looking for is not an impartial assessment of the Aporia, but rather validation and ammunition for the kind of psychotic babble found in the post above.

I can imagine how the question was phrased: "When you were at CES, did you hear that ridiculous APORIA single driver horn that that washed-up, ho-bag Joe Roberts is hawking these days...you know the one that all the exuberant morons are crowing about?"

Hell, if you called me for this sort of crazed , I'd probably humor you too...just to get you off the phone.

You can project, imagine, and speculate all you want but the fact remains that you didn't hear the speaker and you therefore don't actually know what you are talking about. You are the one who has nothing to do with reality.

Calling people on the phone who may have heard the Aporia, if in fact you did this, will not bring you any closer to the promised land. You are out in the hot desert, pulling around a Lamm amp in a cart over the sandy dunes, and the vision of a cool glass of water doesn't make your tongue any wetter.

This is not to say that everybody who heard the Aporia loved it...that would be unlikely regardless of how it sounded. But, at least they heard it and can discuss the issue with some authority.  I can say that by and large the speaker was very well received and many people liked it quite a bit, including numerous competing manufacturers and various distributors who were impressed enough to take on the product line.

The Executive Director of the Las Vegas Symphony hung around for a half hour listening to music and was quite impressed. He was anything but a high-end zombie...in fact, he knew almost zero about high-end audio, but I dare say he knows music. I have his card on my desk in front of me. To me, that experience counts more than praise from a dozen "internet audiophiles" precisely because I know he was reacting without well-baked preconceptions.

Also, I would remind the readers what they already know, that "serious" does not mean "unthinkingly agrees with Romy.™"

There is another term for that condition and I'll let you all define what it is!

Now think about this...many of the "exuberant morons" who are interesed in the concept of Aporia most likely would be more or less equally exuberant about the Romy approach. Some guys are intrigued by more than one approach. Does this mean that they are still morons or does this save them from the death squad?
 
How about the exuberant morons who decide that Romy Approach™ is going to be what they are exuberant about? Face it, there are some out there...maybe you just talked them into it with persistent rhetoric and that special brand of manic enthusiasm... they never heard the results, but they are exuberant. Are they still morons or rather a special class of highly evolved creatures?

I maintain that the Aporia speaker does not sound like anything else, at least nothing I have heard. It may or may not be what a given individual is searching for, but it is not a predictable sounding speaker.

I say the healthy and sensible approach is to stay open and listen because there are still surprises out there if you allow it.

Joe Rob



02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 71
Post ID: 9674
Reply to: 9538
Point source
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Adrian,

I added this paper as an interesting read for our discussion of "the point-source" and I think that the pictures are clear and informative enough on that subject.
There's also there's mentioning of several aspects of speaker design (like imaging, time and phase distortion, etc.) that match Romy's views on the subject and have been put to practice in the Macondo.

Best,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 9675
Reply to: 9673
Nope you are not a serious cat...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Joe, it you willing to quote me then quote my entire thought but not the out of context taken sound-bites that make you demagogy sealable. I am sorry to say it but you are in uncharted water and you are out of depth.  I am not sure why you are still going, if the keel deep into a dune and the propellers are still spinning then it create nothing but bubbles. Well, creations of bubbles is you specialty and as you said, some dealer and distributors on the deck might smell the stench of burned oil and noise of heavy cavitations  and might bite. I am glad that I was instrumental, and I do not mind. Make sure that the dealer/distributors you pick would not the friends of mine as it would be too ironic to hear from one more time their typical comment: “…the product is crap but thankfully the customers are idiots. BTW, Romy lay off to bitch about this at you site, I have a mortgage to pay.”

Anyway, Joe, I think you need to find another vent to beam your “audio seriousness” to others, from what you have impressed in this thread I am not impressed, moreover, very disappointed. There are plenty audio comminutes who would gladly adapt you, kiss you ass, feed you with the stores that you would like to hear and who help you to demonize the people who consider your view as too light. I too much know all those games to have any inters in them. I am sure that you soon will find your Silbatone Aporia US representative who will take your torch of “schizophrenic hi-fi” and you will shut up until you see a new opportunity to express that psychotic babble of audio practicing.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 9676
Reply to: 9674
More about Point Source
fiogf49gjkf0d

Tuga,

It is very much NOT about the Point Source. The Point Source is absolutely irrelevant label that was invented by the single driver enthusiasts in order to mentally differentiate their speakers from multi-drivers configuration and in order to justify why some people are not able to integrated multi-drivers. It is like a ship going across an ocean and leaves a water mark behind: one person can design a ship to hit zillion important operational parameters of the ship and another person who is clues about the whole about ship building would design a ship to leave specific water mark. There is no need to ask this person how fast the ship might go, what would be displacement, draft, length, ability break to ice, What would be propulsion system, what would be fuel, people or cargo capacity. Those people will see only that the ship leave the watermarks in the shape of Mogein Dovid and they are ambivalent and immuned to understand anything else.

I think the concept of Point Source itself, as it is being use by single-driver people shell not be used and very many single-driver designs are not proper Point Source. I might endorse the Point Source concept but only form a perspective of actual true mining of the term. Back in my photography time there was a devise: optical bench and one of the attributes of this devise was an optical system the set up the calibration target at infinite distance. Not the 100 times of focal distance of a measured lens but in true infinity (think bout a very powerful inverted binocular). In this setting the dimensions of target have no width and it is just a dot in space. This characteristic is important for some optical measurements. BTW, I was a semi-inventor of a very interesting devise for silver photography that took advantage of many benefits of “Single Point Light Source” in enlargers – it worked very very well, anyhow it is a history… So, why I bring it all up?  Because in my vocabulary I do use the Point Source concept but it has absolutely different meaning then what single-driver people trying to use. When you have a stereo installation and you play (proper) mono material then you playback present sound radiated from a single point directly between the loudspeakers. This is all know and simple BUT the absolute dimensions of this monophonic single point, an ability of the single point to maintain own  minimum dimensions at the stress of different dynamic and frequency ranges and the most important – the mechanisms of evaluating of the single point dimensions is totally different subject and I treat THIS subject with high respect. Generally the smallest single point Sound would be able to collapse itself on mono the better imaging you will have in stereo, but it is not all so simple and there is LOT more to it. Anyhow, that is the definition of Point Source that exists in my vocabulary. The way how the single-driver audio people use terms Point Source ordinary is just the way how they were sold to use the phrase by the stupid audio propaganda and they juts repeat it brainlessly like monkeys.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 74
Post ID: 9677
Reply to: 9676
EcruoS tnioP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

You got it all backwards but thanks for your visual approach to the subject.
I really meant to illustrate the fact that Point Source does not exist in "real life" and that it's analogy with a single driver makes no sense (then there is the question of live vs. recorded-and-then-reproduced sound and live sound being different things...).
The above (JMLC) paper is, in my view, a very good illustration of that, and has information on the subject integration of multiple driver systems.

Best,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
02-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,655
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 75
Post ID: 9678
Reply to: 9677
The kindergarten audio?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Tuga,

I do not know what JMLC had written in that paper – I can’t read French but from looking at the pictures I might only presume that he was trying to prove or disprove the Point Source idea by looking at the souses live sound vs. recorded-and-then-reproduced sound. You do not to be overly observant to recognize that Point Source does not exist in realty BUT I do not think that is prove anything in audio. The live vs. recorded-and-then-reproduced sound are the same things from the perspective of perception and different things from the perspective of methods. It is like playing a note on violin and piano – it might be the same pitch and the same note but very different techniques and methods are involved. In one of the articles on my Audio For Dummies ™ section I have proposed that we shall not position speakers but shall create Sound in room. A single-driver (wave-propulsion type) has very poor room coupling and practically no variables to tune itself. It is like somebody built for you a guitar but it has not Machine heads and string “as is”. What are you doing to do with it? Be advised that a Silbatone-like back-loaded single-driver (even if to embrace the wrong perception of Point Source as the single-driver people perceive it) is not a Point Source. A Moron sits in front of large single-driver transducer, hear HF radiating from the driver’s pancake and feel that it is a “Point Source”. I am sorry but it is laughable even from the context of the kindergarten audio… JMLC is too audio intelligent person to argue Point Source or not the Point Source. Audio have a lot of own Bermuda Triangles and I do not see a need to fight with surrogate notions of Point Source that I see as nothing else but a artificial foolishness conceived by simplistic and semi-sinister people.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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