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10-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 51
Post ID: 23447
Reply to: 23446
Water pipe size works well :)
Hi Anthony 
Agree, waste is waste. The bigger the better. If you care bout sound too, i recommend the RG213 radio cable. Its perfect for that purpose. First, its coaxial which eliminates the inductance. Second its very hard so that during vibration the distance between both poles doesn’t vary (and such the L/C values vary!) and that makes the sound more calm and stable (subtle though). Its got good awg and id recommend to use multiple. At least 1 per meter. 
I got 3 meter so i use 3 of them. Gives very low resistance. 
CheersJosh
10-06-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 23452
Reply to: 23446
So for ruining your weekend.
Anthony, in a way what you do it correct and I do appreciate your anal retentiveness. However, be advised that your sense of causality might not be working properly. For sure, to have less DCR lost in the cable is good thing and to have more gauge is a logical result, right? Well, it is depending of what you do. If you build a playground for testing audio concepts then lower CR is good. If you built a better sound then the best cable would be the one that sound good not the one that have less DCR. So, my question is: what will you do if your 14ga cable sounds belter in bass then your 6ga cable despite ta the 14ga cable has 1dB less output? Sorry for ruining your weekend… :-)


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 53
Post ID: 23453
Reply to: 23452
You do not have to worry about it
Romy, my weekend is excellent, truly excellent.  

I was sitting at the cricket watching my son play this morning and I had one of those "eureka" moments.  I realised that when paralleled, the DC resistance of the voice coils (as measured) reduced and that I should have been applying the same "reduction" to the resistance of the paralleled speaker cables, whereas I had been adding them.  This realisation changes everything because all that I really have to worry about now is the amount of current the wire can efficiently transfer, not so much it's DCR, so 16awg is perfectly fine, so is 20awg most likely.  

It also takes ribbon cables completely off the table because when paralleled capacitance increases and I am sure it would get out of hand.

So while having a pleasant morning, talking to friends, the stresses of the world draining slowly away, I was able to realise where I had been going wrong conceptually with this cannon project, and the results are superb.  It's funny how it works sometimes.
10-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 54
Post ID: 23454
Reply to: 23453
Resistance with no load
hi Anthony 
Im not saying to use ribbons (really not) but why you’re afraid of high capacitance that kind of shortens the resistance in high frequencies while you’re not playing the woofers in those (>10k) ?It’s purely AC issue that only appears when using. As long as the amp doesnt have to play highs, it shouldn’t matter to him. Well im not overly familiar with tubes and their circumstances of load after the transformer, maybe i dont get the point?
Cheers Josh 
10-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 23455
Reply to: 23453
The point is well taken
Well, the wire paralleling is a common thing. This is where the idea or Litz wire come from when they use many isolated wires for less them skin depth. It doe serve theoretical purpose but not always server sonic purpose. I have a friend of my who made for me very cool Litz cables use so very expensive 450 lead wire. He uses natural cotton fabric jacket and the whole cable feels very high-endish. The problem is that the cable sound like shit and never use it. Anyhow, everyone use in speakers internally 10-12ga wire. I do not say that speaker interconnect not important. After all I am the person what have the whole system wired with vintage Dominos and I have good reasons for it. I however found "my" cables before I made Macondo. So, I did not experiment with it a lot. Your point about resistance is well taken but I personally would go for sound quality intend then going for lower DCR.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 56
Post ID: 23456
Reply to: 23455
A misunderstanding
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Well, the wire paralleling is a common thing. This is where the idea or Litz wire come from when they use many isolated wires for less them skin depth. It doe serve theoretical purpose but not always server sonic purpose. I have a friend of my who made for me very cool Litz cables use so very expensive 450 lead wire. He uses natural cotton fabric jacket and the whole cable feels very high-endish. The problem is that the cable sound like shit and never use it. Anyhow, everyone use in speakers internally 10-12ga wire. I do not say that speaker interconnect not important. After all I am the person what have the whole system wired with vintage Dominos and I have good reasons for it. I however found "my" cables before I made Macondo. So, I did not experiment with it a lot. Your point about resistance is well taken but I personally would go for sound quality intend then going for lower DCR.


Romy, what I said in my earlier post was that I had made a mistake with calculation of the DCR losses for parallel speaker cables i.e. the 8 parallel sets in my Bass Cannons.  I was adding the DCR to the amplifier load when in fact the DCR should have been diminishing because of the parallel driver wiring.  The end result is that I really do not need the huge fat cables and that something as small as 18awg is going to be just fine.
10-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 57
Post ID: 23457
Reply to: 23454
It's a lot of capacitance
 martinshorn wrote:
hi Anthony 
Im not saying to use ribbons (really not) but why you’re afraid of high capacitance that kind of shortens the resistance in high frequencies while you’re not playing the woofers in those (>10k) ?It’s purely AC issue that only appears when using. As long as the amp doesnt have to play highs, it shouldn’t matter to him. Well im not overly familiar with tubes and their circumstances of load after the transformer, maybe i dont get the point?
Cheers Josh 


I see your points, but I also do not know the answers.  I suppose I could connect a small cap in series with the speaker wires, set up an line level crossover at the input to the amp and then measure to see if the amplifier oscillates at all.  With all ribbon cables the amp will see about 20nF of capacitance plus whatever capacitance is present in the woofers.  With speaker wire the capacitance would be about 1.5nF plus woofers.
11-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 24572
Reply to: 23434
Some psychological stories and tips.
Anthony, I visited you thread and glance the progress you are going with Milq DSET. I do not exactly how you feel, I went over it myself. Let me to tell you how I dealt with what your experience. I am not sure that my dealing with the problem is a model for imitation but and was what it was and I bring it up only for sake of illustration. 
 
Before I “designed” the Melquíades I did not have a lot of DIY audio experience or knowledge.  I have electro-mechanical degree, if it means anything. I was playing, fixing and improving my reel machines since I was 8 year old. Since my childhood I feel comfortable with soldering and feel fine with periodic electrocution. At my 10-11 year I was dissecting reel machines and vintage radios, taking from there driver, aps and building my ridicules playbacks. Honestly, it was all horrible and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing or what I am listening, no different from mostly other DIYers. Still, all my life I enjoyed mingling with different aspects of “audio”, had a few amplifiers speakers and felt that it make some difference or purpose. 
 
In 1992 I came to US, there was not a lot of time or money to play with audio but in 1995 I had a few amps and few speakers in in my apartment there was more wires then it should be. When I moved to Boston from Philadelphia in 1996 I sod all y furniture and a half of my residual possessions were audio things. Somewhere in 1996 I discovered a world of high-end audio. It was a local friend of my why was working for pro audio company who introduced me to high-end audio and for the next few years I got really into it. I owned a few expensive brands of speakers and electronics and had a very respectable installation that would make the editors of audio publication to be very proud about me. That was co-existed with my period of general positive outlook society.  I was very non-critical. I was making a LOT of money during a day. I was teaching in a private college at evenings. I was wearing suits and spoke polite English. I was befriended with Feudality Investment stock analysts. I was dating two girls at the same time. I was a quintessential yuppee with all my believes, views and behaviors.  Good, I so hate now what I was in end 90s!… 
 
Then, in 1999-2000 I felt some disassociation with what is going on around me, surprisingly the election of Bush the son really hit me hard and it is despite that I hardly ever followed politics before. In the end of 1998 a friend of mine from NY introduced me to Vladimir Lamm. I quickly become a friend of the family and 1999-2000 a spent a lot of time with them. Vladimir was very interesting person regarding audio subject and conversations with him tough me a lot and to a degree is responsible for many of my audio views now. Vladimir did not teach me anything technically, in fact I had no interest in that aspect of audio at that time. Still, juts taking with him I learn how to questions things, not to think about audio differently, how to doubt, how to listen music. There were a few other peoples at that time who help me to revise my views from obedient and institutionalized audio-yuppee to a free thinking individual but Vladimir was at very initiation of it. It is no surprise that Lamm electronics very fast replaced everything that I had at that time. In very beginning of 2000, at CES I was first introduced to Avant-garde Horns that very much picked my interest and in the end of 2000 I was running customized Trio, double-amped with two pairs of ML2.0 and Dunlavy’s line array.  I need to do some custom work with my ML2, Lamm refused that make me to look somewhere else and speak with other designers. Approximately at that time, around 2001, inspired by the folks around me, I began to develop interest in technical aspect of audio, looking in topologies, design solutions, correlation of results, listening analyses… etc.. Somewhere in 2002 I felt disappointment in my relationship with Lamm. Vladimir as a person was perfectly fine but Vladimir as high-end audio entity, as a manufacturer who scared about own status-quo was an ugly seen to bear and in 2002-2003 I terminated my relationship with Lamms. I still use all Lamm’s amps and it was very good. In 2004, accumulating some my own understanding how amps make sound and socializing with a few amp thinkers I picked queasily if it is possible to make an amp that will be performing at the same level as Lamm ML2. I needed to make some custom modifications of ML2 but I did not want to butcher the Lamm’s amp, instead I wanted to have another 6C33C amp that will be purely mine and that I will be able to customize. So, the Melquíades is started as a pure competition with ML2.0. The whole 2004 where zillion experiments with amp and sound and somewhere in the end of 2004 the first Milq was made that compete very well against ML2. I built it myself and it was not so hard, even though I made many stupid mistakes but I learned. 
 
I very fast developed a notion of Super Melquíades and in beginning of 2005 I started to build it. I need to admit that I was a bit overwhelming, took a LOT of time and progressed not as fast as I wanted. I decided to quit my job and to dedicate my full time to build the Melquíades. I was doing software consulting at that time, billing $125 with unlimited overtimes, so giving up $17K cash inflow a month was a bit unwise. I was working on Melquíades from 7Am to Midnight, each day, and the rational was that the faster I go the sooner I return back to my normal life. When I said “normal life” I really mean it as I did not date, I did not even go out too much and I full time was building the thing. It took for me 3-4 months. Not that it was just 4 months of building but I did teach myself a lot at that time. Ai was working very hard with Macondo at that time as well, experimenting and listening a lot, accommodating Macondo for multi-amping. As both Super Milqs and new Macondo were ready I opened myself back to the world but I do remember that there was 3-4 months when I do not think about anything but Sound and how to get in there. 
 
So, in my view the DIY experience means very little. The clarity of what you do is much more important as to make all experiments with Sound and convince yourself that you do  is right this and that you listening right things is the most costly thing of all. If I build the Super Melquíades again from scratch I would probably take a week or two off and would do it. The key would be the planning, to prepare all parts, to order of components and to organize everything. BTW, many things that you Anthony do might be outscored but I am not sure that it is what you want. In the end it is a labor of love, you undertake this project once a life. I am very much assure you that in many year you will be looking at your amps and will be wondering if it is true that you did them yourself. 

Rgs, 
Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 59
Post ID: 24573
Reply to: 24572
Not such a dissimilar story
Romy, thanks for taking the time to write a little about your history with Melquiades and diy.  In some ways our stories are quite similar.  My background is agriculture.  My family breed cattle and grow crops and I am a large part in that business.  I have a science degree and a consultancy that is almost entirely based in agriculture.  The land and livestock is "in my blood" and I have been brought up on a "do-it-yourself" or "fix-it-yourself" philosophy.  Never really with electronics though, although I did setup some solar powered telemetry to monitor stock-watering points several years ago.  There is nothing I want more right now than to take a month off work to get the project making noise so that I can take my time with the tuning process, but I need to keep my clients happy.

Fortunately, my wife is very understanding and can tolerate my dedication to the project.  It would be impossible otherwise.  Summer holidays are coming up here soon and if everything goes well I may get a week or two just doing my audio while the kids are farmed out to grand-parents and get to ride horses and motorbikes, chase cows and are spoilt with lunch pudding and the like.

Although I do tremendously enjoy the diy aspect of this project, it is not something that I envision doing continuously as part of my hobby.  I see it more as a "skills enhancer" (I have now fixed several household things that previously would have been discarded to the rubbish tip) and will benefit other parts of my life.  I think that it is very important for my children to see me doing something not only in my work time but also in my spare time rather than lounging around watching the tv.  They learn more by what they see than what I tell them to do.    

 Romy the Cat wrote:

So, in my view the DIY experience means very little. The clarity of what you do is much more important as to make all experiments with Sound and convince yourself that you do  is right this and that you listening right things is the most costly thing of all. 


I am not yet to the stage of having sound, but am reasonably close.  Perhaps being this close and having all the parts at hand and just needing to put them together is the real driver for my motivation at the moment.  I don't know.  Our true motivations are sometimes difficult to reveal.


 Romy the Cat wrote:

If I build the Super Melquíades again from scratch I would probably take a week or two off and would do it. The key would be the planning, to prepare all parts, to order of components and to organize everything. BTW, many things that you Anthony do might be outscored but I am not sure that it is what you want. In the end it is a labor of love, you undertake this project once a life. I am very much assure you that in many year you will be looking at your amps and will be wondering if it is true that you did them yourself. 

Rgs, 
Romy The Cat


Yep, you have nailed it with that paragraph Romy.  I don't intend to move onto the next audio project...I intend to get this one working just how I would like.

02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 60
Post ID: 24699
Reply to: 24573
First Bass Cannon is up
...and it's size has shocked me, even though I designed and built it.

Bass Cannon 2.jpg


Bass Cannon 3.jpg

Bass Cannon 4.jpg

Bass Cannon 5.jpg


...and from the sweet spot...

Bass Cannon 1.jpg



02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 24700
Reply to: 24699
Very nice, Anthony.
It is very nice, Anthony. From aesthetic prospective I would like to have it to be 2 sections less as I feel that the bass sections overcomes horns visually but it is never too many bass sections. You might want to start from 6 sections and then add 2 more if you need it. Be prepared that when the speakers will be done you will want to move it a good 3-5 feet further from the wall, it will greatly improve imaging. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 62
Post ID: 24701
Reply to: 24700
Bass alignment
I guess you have listened to it but when I don't align the separate bass cabinets they fight each other and I get terrible bass.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 63
Post ID: 24702
Reply to: 24701
Unknown
 Jorge wrote:
I guess you have listened to it but when I don't align the separate bass cabinets they fight each other and I get terrible bass.


You have mentioned this before Jorge and as a result it is one of the things that I am going to test before I assemble the second stack.  I could find no problems in the measurements when I had them stacked four high previously, but eight high may be something different.  I've not listened to them yet...just assembled them.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 24703
Reply to: 24701
It is just an extreme nearfield.
Jorge, the topology that Anthony use very permits an alignment of the individual bass sections. BTW, you as the person who invited this topology, or at least the first one who use it in my circle, should know about it.  The alignment does look very conspicuous on the picture but I think it is because Anthony has a very short room and his listening position is not too far. Based upon the curvature that I see I think he will be sitting 7 feet from the bass drivers. It is very much a nearfield but Macondo topology should handle it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 65
Post ID: 24704
Reply to: 24700
I feel the same way
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is very nice, Anthony. From aesthetic prospective I would like to have it to be 2 sections less as I feel that the bass sections overcomes horns visually but it is never too many bass sections. You might want to start from 6 sections and then add 2 more if you need it. Be prepared that when the speakers will be done you will want to move it a good 3-5 feet further from the wall, it will greatly improve imaging. 


When putting them together I got to 6 sections and thought they looked really good.  Even seven looked good but the eight put it into imposing territory, when compared to the horns.  Of course I may yet add either an Injection Channel or Midbass Channel on top of the horns which may change things aesthetically, but yes, dropping one or two cannons off the top is an option.

Unfortunately I do not have another 3-5 ft to bring them out from the wall.  The drivers are all at least 1.4m from the wall, or nearly 5', but the cannons are 3' long which makes it look like they are closer.  I do hope this is going to work.  One thing that I noticed when assembling the stacks while playing music is how even one these tall stacks affects the sound in the room.  It acts sort of like a corner bass trap (and diffusor) and how two of them act will be very interesting.  They may act sort of like walls in the middle of the room which may or may not be a problem or a benefit, but it will certainly be different to the effect of a normal subwoofer or two in terms of how sound reflects around the room.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 66
Post ID: 24705
Reply to: 24703
Good eyes
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Jorge, the topology that Anthony use very permits an alignment of the individual bass sections. BTW, you as the person who invited this topology, or at least the first one who use it in my circle, should know about it.  The alignment does look very conspicuous on the picture but I think it is because Anthony has a very short room and his listening position is not too far. Based upon the curvature that I see I think he will be sitting 7 feet from the bass drivers. It is very much a nearfield but Macondo topology should handle it.


Very good eyes Romy.  I am limited by how far apart I can get the left and right channels because of where the stairs come into the room.  As a result of earlier discussions with you I am pursuing a listening distance of 7.5' at this stage before I listen to anything and the Bass Cannons have been set on a corresponding curvature based on the height of my ears at the listening chair.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 67
Post ID: 24706
Reply to: 24705
Sorry
My bad experience was mainly for aesthetic purposes with just a couple of drivers, so clearly misaligned. sorry for repeating the comment.
The biggest tower of bass drivers I have used was 4 tubes, dynamics was good but the difference I found against just 2 tubes in the same room was not a lot. When moved to a bigger room the need for more bass tubes became noticeable, we settled for 3. Later we compared against one newer tube with a bigger driver and it seemed to be equivalent. Of course they are a different topology.

Pease let us know how they sound! They do look impressive.

PS: Where is you UBH?
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 68
Post ID: 24707
Reply to: 24706
Thanks Jorge
Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for repeating the comment.  The reason I post this stuff is to hopefully use the experience of others such as yourself that have more knowledge than I .  

The UBH is still on the lathe.  I need to get them finished and plan to get back to them in about a month.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 24708
Reply to: 24706
Disagree of course...
 Jorge wrote:
The biggest tower of bass drivers I have used was 4 tubes, dynamics was good but the difference I found against just 2 tubes in the same room was not a lot.
I very much disagree with this assessment. The more bass drivers you have the better bass you get and the relation is virtually linear. 6 drivers are better than 4 and 64 drivers even better. The point is that the more driver you have the less exertion of individual drivers, thus less mechanic distortions. It is not to mention that with grow of drivers number the sensitivity of the entire bass section grow and starting from some point a low power DSET might be used, which is by nature has superior LF. Also, with a large number of drivers it is possible to use the array in split-bass configuration that can dial the room very accurately in care a room has a problem. The only limitation as I see it to breed too many bass section is space and aesthetic… I do feel purely from aesthetic perspective that Anthony need to use 6 drivers per side but my viewpoints on aesthetic should be meaningful only for myself…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 70
Post ID: 24766
Reply to: 24708
Second stack is up
Well, the second Bass Cannon stack is up and in place.
Two up.jpg

I have to say that the room feels better with the second stack up.  There is now a symmetry and balance and I feel as though even at 8 each side they do not overly detract from the horn stacks.  I now have less of an inclination to remove one or two cannons to make them less imposing.

From Desk.jpg


I like this shot a lot...

Aint She Prettyjpg.jpg


Power-on testing for the amplifiers has been slow going but I am making forward progress.  I can't wait to finish an upperbass horn and get it upstairs to my room.  Plans for room acoustic treatment are also progressing.


03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,547
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 24767
Reply to: 24766
Yep, very nice.
Yep, indeed, it looks very nice. The 8 sections of bass line array look visually slightly overweening but I think when you put the upper bass horns in place it will visually balance the things out. I feel some sort of envy to the way how you plan your project. I did not have this luxury as it was a long evolutionary prosses. It is much better to think about system architecture when the strategically a system is laid out. You did a very good job to conceptualize the Macondo layout into you own version. I initially did not see your cylindrical line array or your curved back frame as prospective direction. I need to admit the now I do see a merit of it. 
 
A major revision of what you do will take place when you connect you bass line-array and will RTA your room from listening position. There is absolutely no way to predict how room will response under 150Hz to your playback. With the configuration you have you will have a LOT of options to deal with whatever response you will get. Do not commit the stupidity many audio people do and do not correct sub 150Hz with acoustic treatments. It never works properly and create more problems then solutions.  The key should be not to fight your room but use your room, converting the room problems into room advantages. The configuration you have is uniquely suited for it. If you hit problems with your RTA interpretation and would be confuse what steps to take with your playback to address it then contact me and I will pitch some directions.  
 
There is a direction that you might consider, I am taking about lower bass channel. I know that you have your wet dream fantasy about large midbass horn but there is topological restriction for you: time alignment. I do not know how to address this problem. The itch for midbass channel is not juts chowing over the “never stop paranoia”. The type of the drivers you use at LF are very good in my view at bottom but above let say 60-70Hz your can do better. You bass drivers have unique non-inertia rubber suspension which doe not feel like rubber and sonically very far from typical rubber used but it still not as loos as vintage paper suspension or leather suspension. Playing some lower MF or midbass instruments, you might feel that the micro-tensions and transients in midbass will be slightly mad out with your bass drivers. Honestly, it will not be felt as “deficiency” as those ScanSpeaks are very nicely balanced. What I did at my time was experimenting with loading. For instance, if I drive your bass driver from 6C33C then the best sound at 40Hz I got when I was loading my amp with let say 400R. However, the best sound at 120Hz I was getting from the same drivers if I load the amps with 1200R. At 1200R ScanSpeaks “ring” like a good vintage driver, well sort of… The irony is that in your configuration it is even possible to do it driving different section of the drivers in array from different taps of your OPT or even from different channels or Milq. It because a bit complex and you need to deal with power matching and a few other factors. I do think that much easy way to introduce little ridicules dedicated midbass channel with nice “loose” vintage driver, similar to what I did in my current room. The “ridicules” part come from that fact that it is not proper speaker. Above 125-150Hz you will have your upper-bass horn take over and at sub 70Hz you have your line-array cover nicely. So, it needs to be a very small little direct radiator box with 100dB efficiency. All that you need this driver to do is juts to inject some textural ringing around 100Hz. The wonderful irony is that 70Hz-100Hz is the exact location where most likely your room modes will be showing. So, you can combine your “injected textural ringing” with amplitude correction – very slick and effective way to deal with problems.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 72
Post ID: 24768
Reply to: 24766
Keeping Options Open
Anthony, this is a very smart installation, IMO, because you have not "over-committed" to areas where you have work left to do, and areas you have committed to are flexible enough to allow adjustments you will likely need to do.   Also, you have made provisions to "dial out slop" and hold settings, apropos.

Bravo!

If you said yet what the small speakers sitting on stands are, I missed it.


Best regards,
Paul S
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 73
Post ID: 24769
Reply to: 24768
Two way
 Paul S wrote:
Anthony, this is a very smart installation, IMO, because you have not "over-committed" to areas where you have work left to do, and areas you have committed to are flexible enough to allow adjustments you will likely need to do.   Also, you have made provisions to "dial out slop" and hold settings, apropos.

Bravo!

If you said yet what the small speakers sitting on stands are, I missed it.


Best regards,
Paul S


Thanks Paul.  Those little speakers are Lenehan ML1 two way standmounts.  They are very good speakers if you can accept the limitations of the topology thanks largely to the effort the builder puts into reducing energy storage in the cabinets.  They have excellent off-axis power response and a lot of effort put into the crossovers.  A good solution for someone that needs small speakers.  
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 74
Post ID: 24770
Reply to: 24767
Room treatment
Thanks for the kind words Romy.  I am enjoying taking my time with this project and getting things just right.  It sure helps when there is little development involved, just duplication more or less.  Development may come later as I impose my expectations upon the playback, but we will see.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

 
A major revision of what you do will take place when you connect you bass line-array and will RTA your room from listening position. There is absolutely no way to predict how room will response under 150Hz to your playback. With the configuration you have you will have a LOT of options to deal with whatever response you will get. Do not commit the stupidity many audio people do and do not correct sub 150Hz with acoustic treatments. It never works properly and create more problems then solutions.  The key should be not to fight your room but use your room, converting the room problems into room advantages. The configuration you have is uniquely suited for it. If you hit problems with your RTA interpretation and would be confuse what steps to take with your playback to address it then contact me and I will pitch some directions.  
 
 

I see room treatment as one of the first things to get in order, but I am not thinking so much from the perspective of amplitude correction, rather trying to get a more even room decay.  At present in my room, the further I get below 100Hz the longer the sound takes to decay.  I personally find it a bit disconcerting but perhaps a lot of people would not even notice it ( I seem to hear low frequencies better than some).  So my first step will be to make some pressure traps to go behind the speakers and in the corners and try to get them to reduce the room ringing/decay in the 30Hz to 500Hz region.  Now that the Bass Cannons are up, I can hook them up to my existing amplifier and make some measurements to try to figure out just what I want to achieve.  Just having the Cannons in the room has changed the bass sound that I get from the little standmounts that I currently use.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


There is a direction that you might consider, I am taking about lower bass channel. I know that you have your wet dream fantasy about large midbass horn but there is topological restriction for you: time alignment. I do not know how to address this problem. The itch for midbass channel is not juts chowing over the “never stop paranoia”. The type of the drivers you use at LF are very good in my view at bottom but above let say 60-70Hz your can do better. You bass drivers have unique non-inertia rubber suspension which doe not feel like rubber and sonically very far from typical rubber used but it still not as loos as vintage paper suspension or leather suspension. Playing some lower MF or midbass instruments, you might feel that the micro-tensions and transients in midbass will be slightly mad out with your bass drivers. Honestly, it will not be felt as “deficiency” as those ScanSpeaks are very nicely balanced. What I did at my time was experimenting with loading. For instance, if I drive your bass driver from 6C33C then the best sound at 40Hz I got when I was loading my amp with let say 400R. However, the best sound at 120Hz I was getting from the same drivers if I load the amps with 1200R. At 1200R ScanSpeaks “ring” like a good vintage driver, well sort of… The irony is that in your configuration it is even possible to do it driving different section of the drivers in array from different taps of your OPT or even from different channels or Milq. It because a bit complex and you need to deal with power matching and a few other factors. I do think that much easy way to introduce little ridicules dedicated midbass channel with nice “loose” vintage driver, similar to what I did in my current room. The “ridicules” part come from that fact that it is not proper speaker. Above 125-150Hz you will have your upper-bass horn take over and at sub 70Hz you have your line-array cover nicely. So, it needs to be a very small little direct radiator box with 100dB efficiency. All that you need this driver to do is juts to inject some textural ringing around 100Hz. The wonderful irony is that 70Hz-100Hz is the exact location where most likely your room modes will be showing. So, you can combine your “injected textural ringing” with amplitude correction – very slick and effective way to deal with problems. 
 


Regarding frequency response, I do have that 6th channel in the DSET that could be dedicated to an additional bass channel and I do have a pair of Vitavox 15" woofers that I found for the purpose.  All of those options you mentioned are still on the table.

The room has an axial mode at just below 30Hz which can be nulled with correct placement of the listening chair exactly midway between those walls.  Above that are other modes that are not so easy to mitigate but they do tend to cluster from 60/70Hz upwards.  I can build broadband room treatment that will effectively reduce ringing and control the decay of those frequencies, but I doubt that it will do too much for the frequency response which I am quite sure will have to be treated as you suggest.
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