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09-05-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 16949
Reply to: 13135
Romy the Cat as a “great” speaker designer.
fiogf49gjkf0d

As I have finished remodeling my new Opera room:

 http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=16948

…I modified my Altec 19. The one ordinal that I had was truly phenomenal item. I went to recue what was done in there I was very impressed. The former owner from Florida has reportedly died already but the way how he kept the speaker was truly exemplary.  Everything inside is original and new as it was produced just last week. The new external foam, the new grills, the drivers as they were made just last night. Wonderful! I rotated the bass drivers (a good for suspension sagging) and realized the he put a very thick layer of leather (½ inch) between the bass driver and enclosure. I got rid of the MF driver, put my 18-cell with S2 driver in place driving it from the very same Altec 19 crossover, effectively converting the Altec 19 to Altec 21S. The sound of CD was very nice if I hear it from another room.

Then I decided that I am too expressed and too sophisticated and that I can do much better then the 35 years old stupid crossover. So, I made two second order 500Hz crossovers for 416 driver and S2 with metal cone. As I connected my new Altec 21S with my own crossovers, with use the original one  the sound turn out to be so disgusting that it shocked my “sophistication” to its core. I can not even begin to describe how bad it was and I am very glad that no one witnessed that shame. In the best it sounded like I just eaten a kilogram of rusty nails and then drunk a gallon of Muriatic acid. If somebody tried to apply Muriatic  acid to metal then you know it feels (smells). I was sitting in front of the speakers and was thinking what the fucking idiot I am. I literally was about to vomit not only because the Sound but also because I did it with my own hands (mind).

Well, the result I got, perhaps need to have further working and I am sure that if I go all the way to the bottom of it then I would find a useful combination, but I was poisoned by me “engineering” that I trashed my own crossover, put back the original Altec and said to myself: “You Moron, do not fucking touch it anymore.”  The only thing that comforts me in that whole story is that the narratives of my big “design adventure” is my secret and no one knows about it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 16995
Reply to: 16949
How to get better lower MF from Altec 21S …
fiogf49gjkf0d

Listening my Altec 21S, even for movies, I do detect that it has some kind of lower MF problem, somewhere within 500-2000Hz. Here is the dilemma, what to do with it in 2–way speaker? Pretty much nothing… Since I use the original Altec 19 crossover my crossover has MF adjustment but Altec adjustment   is within next octave and sonically as I move Altec own EQ then it very horribly reflects sound. I prefer to keep the MF Altec 19 adjustment at zero.

Here is two options that I can see if I willing to deal with it: 1) to drop the MF crossover point from the Altec’s 1250Hz to let say 500Hz, thankfully the 180Hz multi-sell would allow to do so 2) introduction another channel between tweeter and woofer. Both of the ways would do and I “might” try it.

What I wonder if another channels goes what driver it might be. It is not that I am in search mode for driver. I would like to spend no efforts on it and at this point my interest is purely theoretical. For sure my JBL 2490 would be a great candidate for it:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=15335

I have a pair of them, new sitting in the boxes. The problem is that when I got them I was thinking to use them with my 18-sell 180Hz horn. Now the multi-sell is busy with Vitavox S2 and I have no plans to change MF. So, to engage the JBL 2490 it would need another lower MF horn with 3” entry. I do not have such a horn. If somebody knows any ready to go 3”-entry horn of any profile with 150Hz-180Hz exit then I might try it. I would not custom design and order such a horn as I would like to have the Altec 91 project to go easy and cheap.

To drop the MF crossover point would not be a big deal and I need to try it another day…. Still, the huge amount of empty space above multi-sell with Vitavox S2 drives me nuts… and called to be filled…

NewVidioRoom3WithAltec21s.JPG

The Cat




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 17128
Reply to: 16995
I am a pain in ass.
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is over 2 weeks as the crossover parts for my Altec 21S modification are sitting in my house. It would be 30 min fix but I still did not do it – juts lazy. I want for how to keep the Altec low path crossover but I the crossover for MF I would like to put my own. Nothing exotic – 2 order around 500Hz. I will keep the woofer and MF overlap over one octave – I see no problem with it, well I see the problem since it is not time-aligned but in the speakers of limited demands (means for video applications) I feel it is perfectly acceptable.

I took 7mH air-core coil for filter of 19ga. I did not pay more for lower DCR coil as the coil in high path second order is not in series with signal, so the DCR is not so critical. For caps I took two pairs of 33mF/75V wet tantalum caps. They are not regular tantalum but wet and from my experiments during the Rohde & Schwarz modification I remember that I was not able to find anything better sounding. Of cause the polarized wet tantalum caps will not work properly in AC-only circuit, so I will bias them up with a few DC volts. I would need to attenuate the S2 driver, I guess for a few dBs and I still do not know how to do it properly.

The biggest problem with my Altec 21S is not to do the things but to properly delegate efforts to the level of result I expect. I think it think about my Altec 21S as it is Macondo and try to devise the ides to make it better. But in reality Altec 21S are way speakers for video room, the setup that has very limited requirements.

A friend of my who did not hear my Altec 21S asked me how would I estimate the Altec 21S sound on the scale of 10 if sound of Macondo to be at level 10.  I said that as now Altec 21S would do 3 and I do not know if after all modification if will ever do higher than 4. It is not that it does not sound well, it is perfectly listenable, particularly since I put the S2 in there and bogie to get the sound that I use to. Still, being the “second system” I can’t defeat my hate of second systems generally and I need to make find encouragement improve something further in my Altec 21S.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 54
Post ID: 17129
Reply to: 17128
Not different enough
fiogf49gjkf0d
Personally, if I wanted to get a 2nd system, I wouldn't want a less good version of the main system. If they both share an approach to audio, you'll always hear the 3- or 4-ness when you are used to the same thing in 10.

I'd try to be as different as possible in the 2nd system, say Genelec 8260A or something in that genre. Or perhaps, since you want your 2nd system for opera, I'd look at what monitors are used in opera production.
10-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 17130
Reply to: 17129
More than enough for video
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Markus wrote:
Personally, if I wanted to get a 2nd system, I wouldn't want a less good version of the main system. If they both share an approach to audio, you'll always hear the 3- or 4-ness when you are used to the same thing in 10.

I'd try to be as different as possible in the 2nd system, say Genelec 8260A or something in that genre. Or perhaps, since you want your 2nd system for opera, I'd look at what monitors are used in opera production.
Markus, this is very much not how I think. In my view the 2nd system shall not be different then main system. All those convections about 2nd system as system of different type, or topology or type of sound I find very bogus. In fact it is my strong conviction that if person has foolishness to setup second system (I still am a strong opponent of it) then it shell be in sonic terms a more or less replica of main system. I wish I was able to make the Altec 21S to sound like Macondo. Friends of mine advised me to put the projector into my main listening room and use the full Macondo Sound. Firstly the main listing room is light room (high lighting) and I do not want to looks it light status. Second I do not feel that video need any more sophisticated sound then what Altec 21S can do, In fact if it was even 10% of the Altec 21S  does then it would be else very much enough for video.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 17131
Reply to: 17130
My audio desire hirts.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As wonderful my Altec 21S plays video and pop crap as much it absolutely impotent to play any classical repertoire. In fat when I estimated it as 3 on the scale of Macondo 10 I meant the video concert and operas that I play on it. With pure audio with more or less demanding material it sinks to the bottom of the barrel.   I played today on the Altec 21S the Adagio form Mahler 6 – probably the most beautiful music Mahler ever composed and Altec 21S just destroyed it to level that it was a pain to listen. I do not need to make those experiments as it kills my libido to entire audio…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 57
Post ID: 17181
Reply to: 17131
After all!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
As wonderful my Altec 21S plays video and pop crap as much it absolutely impotent to play any classical repertoire. In fat when I estimated it as 3 on the scale of Macondo 10 I meant the video concert and operas that I play on it. With pure audio with more or less demanding material it sinks to the bottom of the barrel.   I played today on the Altec 21S the Adagio form Mahler 6 – probably the most beautiful music Mahler ever composed and Altec 21S just destroyed it to level that it was a pain to listen. I do not need to make those experiments as it kills my libido to entire audio…

I kind of scratching my head and was wondering why my Altec 21S sound so bad with music and sound so good with films. Even playing the DVD/BlueRay with concerts it sound fine but if I play the same from CD it sounded like crap. For sure I blamed the Altec 21S but it is kind odd as the Vitavox with Altec 416 shell give MUCH better result then it is with music. I did my own crossover twice and twice it was very bad with idiotic thin sound. I am it would win the “Best sound at some kind of Show” but in my home I was not acceptable.

Well, a few days ago my local audio guy visited me, the one that lent me Oppo player that I use for the video room. Inspecting the player he informed me that the player was configured to play 7.1 channels. I had no idea about it and I never even went to the played setup. He reset some configuration on the Oppe player and what the deference it was! What do you know, not my Altec 21S plays very fine not only movies but also regular music. As sound gets louder it does not get thinner and it does sound MUCH different now. I did not invest any time to tune it but as is it has very nice result.
 
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 58
Post ID: 17185
Reply to: 17181
Oppo as transport
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wonder if the inappropriate settings for 2 channel audio somehow might have affected your experiments with it as a transport in your main audio only system? I was curious about your experiment as I do need a transport to play the odd cd. One thing to keep in mind though. It is my understanding that DVD players used as transport do sometimes (or almost always according to a friend of mine) run them at 48kHz. I'm not saying the OPPO does that but keep an eye out for it.
10-19-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 17187
Reply to: 17185
Very reasonable consern
fiogf49gjkf0d
 miab wrote:
I wonder if the inappropriate settings for 2 channel audio somehow might have affected your experiments with it as a transport in your main audio only system?

It was exactly what I was thinking and was planning to repeat the experiment again. I will post the findings in the Oppo thread.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-16-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 21714
Reply to: 13135
Update of Cetla 91
fiogf49gjkf0d

ThomasAndCetla91.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-18-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 61
Post ID: 21719
Reply to: 21714
They used to call that driver a squawker
fiogf49gjkf0d
the 110dB efficiency should be met. Just make sure he gets enough Melk-


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-28-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 25014
Reply to: 13135
Cetla 91 circa 2018
Back in 2019 I was converting the Altec Model 19 into myCetla 91 version by introducing to it a custom new 18-section horn loading by Vitavox S2 driver. It was a fan project and it was using in my Opera room for years. This morning I was passing by next to my Cetla 91 speaker and was stricken how it looks and feel, it kind of depicts my life nowadays…

Cetla91_2018.gif



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 3 of 3 (62 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The Evolution of Honk...  Horn-loading and compression had no direct relativity t...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  29033  06-06-2010
  »  New  About Stupid Dynamic..  Misplaced dynamics....  Playback Listening  Forum     1  20947  08-21-2011
  »  New  The Opera Room..  Love that wall-mount!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     77  487541  09-27-2010
  »  New  Playing bad recordings using the "B" system...  It seems...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  22971  09-14-2011
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