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02-02-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 27325
Reply to: 27322
Bruckner 8, The Power and the Glory
Today I listened again to a couple of Bruckner 8 performances on CDs, namely von Karajan/VPO, 1988, also Schuricht/Stuttgart, 1954.  The Music is amazing on both CDs, but the 1988 performance (which may well have been digitally recorded to begin with) comes across quite a bit better via my playback, in terms of range, scale, space and clarity. The sonic differences between these CDs refresh my thoughts about the part Sound plays in rendering Bruckner, meaning what the sound system renders for appreciation. At this early stage in my Bruckner experience I am very grateful to have a sound system (hi-fi) that brings this Music across to me, mostly by “opening up” and making clear enough to me the sounds, timing and structures Bruckner is using to convey his Music. Is all this power and clarity really “necessary”? Well, I am speaking for myself, of course, and YMMV where Bruckner appreciation is concerned. For me, The Loudspeakers are the first speakers I’ve used that “do” Bruckner, and they do it BIG in my listening room, once the system is warmed up. I regard “soundstage” as a bonus, and it’s a BIG bonus with the von Karajan CDs. Naturally, for me to hear it, The Loudspeakers also have to “do” soundstage. Indeed, they do!

Paul S
02-14-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 27334
Reply to: 27325
Koussevitzky Revisited
I want to revisit a CD recital that Romy first shared at GSC, The Spirit of Koussevitzky, Gary Karr, bass, with Harmon Lewis on the piano. Apparently, there is no substitute for bass when listening to bass. Who knew? The Loudspeakers have presented a much richer iteration of this very fine recital and the remarkable instrument that Karr has graciously re-gifted for use by other accomplished, serious bassists.  Forget “fast bass”; this is Musical bass, including the lowest to nearly the highest sounds, loaded with harmonics, texture and dynamics, all driven by Karr’s skill, sensitivity, and special ability to communicate the Music with this amazing instrument. Remarkable, now that it’s laid out for me in such a pristine manner via The Loudspeakers. Nice ambiance, too.

Paul S
02-14-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 27335
Reply to: 27334
Lubeck!
Now I understand why people gush about Wand’s Bruckner 8 in the Lubeck cathedral! I’ve heard B8 rendered with more “detail” but never a better overall balance of sounds and Sound for this symphony, not to mention the very special performance. The “ambiance” presented here is pervasive, very “lifelike”; I am bathed in it. This is exactly what I hoped for from The Loudspeakers! The Loudspeakers are not “challenged” by the recording, they really do it justice. It’s like a portal to another time in another world! I will post more about the performance on the Music board.

Paul S
02-16-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 615
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 27336
Reply to: 27335
Original?
Paul, you have the 1988 original CD or the new Japanese reissue?



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-16-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 30
Post ID: 27337
Reply to: 27336
My Version
Jarek, my CDs (2 in the box) did not come from Japan, and no Japanese characters on the box, just the RCA "wax seal" in the upper left front corner and the bottom right rear corner of the case, also the BMG logo on the back. The sound is "different" than I am used to, and I am verry happy to find that the presentation really serves the composition and the performance well. It goes astoundingly deep. 1988.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-17-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 27338
Reply to: 27337
A Link to More Information
It looks like there are several iterations of this particular performance floating around, and I do not know about the "others". Since this site won't load my photos, here is a link to the version I am telling about (I believe this 8th was performed/recorded in 1987...):

https://classicalmjourney.blogspot.com/2016/03/anton-bruckner-symphony-no-8-gunter-wand.html

Best regards,
Paul S
02-20-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 27340
Reply to: 27338
Tha is all fine but...
 Paul S wrote:
Happily, Arkivmusic.com has made it available once again through its on-demand service. For Bruckner lovers, it's a must
...but buy it not made by ArkivMusic, even though it is hard to distract it nowadays. The Arkivmusic is a horrible organization and I have boycotted it for years


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-20-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 27341
Reply to: 27340
Since It Seems to be Important To You
Romy, I did not patronize ArkivMusic but I just pasted in the first blip I found with the right picture of the CDs I bought. I got mine from Rarewaves, USA via Amazon. I suppose only God knows if they had it "drop-shipped" from Arkiv, but nothing on the CD box or info pack that indicates this.

Paul S
03-15-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 27350
Reply to: 27335
Speakers For The Masses?

“Reviewers” speak confidently about the various parts of cited musical compositions, and in many cases I believe they hear what they say they do. I think it is not only listening experience that bears this fruit, but it might also be a gift, a special capacity for hearing that the reviewer possesses. Whether it is possible to “hear what’s not there”, I am not sure; perhaps “some sound is implicit”. For example, it seems like musicians may “hear differently” from the rest of us. In the case of Bruckner’s Symphonies I am glad to be able to hear so much more than Before The Loudspeakers (BTL), and I am passing on here that much of what I have heard recently is voices, etc. that have been homogenized BTL, and some of those voices were somewhat homogenized even After The Loudspeakers (ATL) until I really cranked up the volume, at which time The Loudspeakers did not compress the Sound but voices came up that had been faint and “part of the chorus” previously. Some of these voices MIGHT have been more available at lower volumes with a doctored frequency response, but keep in mind that Bruckner uses the entire orchestra extensively, top to bottom, so I would not endorse trying to “voice speakers for Bruckner”, apart from using very wide range, very efficient speakers that can take the power to “give voice to Bruckner”. If anyone wonders, yes, the louder one plays back, the more critical the recording and the capabilities of the gear providing the signals and the drive to The Loudspeakers. Like I said up the thread, the more you ask from your system, the more it requires from you. I do “recommend” The Loudspeakers… with a whole thread full of relevant qualifications that I hope provide a map for someone else to implement these speakers, if that’s what they want to do, of course. Yes, they will play softly, too; but that is not how I have approached and implemented my version. I have insisted that music other than Bruckner not suffer from The Loudspeakers, and indeed other Music has also benefitted from these speakers, even at “normal” playback levels. I would still be happy with these speakers if I could no longer listen to loud Bruckner; but I probably would not have gone through this drill were it not for the desire to immerse in Big, symphonic Music.>>



Paul S

03-16-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 35
Post ID: 27351
Reply to: 27322
Stand and Deliver

Up the thread I shared that sitting on the floor with my ears at the same elevation as the center of the 10” drivers sounded good, and that I planned to put The Loudspeakers on 10” stands so I could sit in my listening chair with my ears at the same position relative to the height of the 10” driver. I also happened to mention this plan directly to Troels Gravesen and I was surprised when he answered that he supposed the sound shift I had described did not relate to where my ears were relative to the 10” driver, rather it had to do with where my ears were in the room. Hmmm… I never thought of that… Still, I found a couple of old milk crates, and I made a sturdy ramp, and I singlehandedly got each of The Loudspeakers up on a crate, and I did some listening. And Troels was right, I had not reproduced the sound I got (and still get) while sitting on the floor. I did like a significant power boost I noticed with 10” stands, but it was accompanied by a loss of “sound effects”, like imaging and “space”, that I realized I prefer to the added outright power. I would say that the 10” stands in my case make The Loudspeakers themselves “too present”, whatever the “real reason” for this effect. Troels also mentioned that he designed The Loudspeakers with microphones and ears at the level of the horn center, and he offered that this would be the best way to listen to The Loudspeakers. I spent about a week and a half with the 10” stands, and last week I went to inch and one-half blocks under the speakers, with my ears at the horn center when I am seated in my chair. Folks, there are not many horns I want pointed at my ears, but these 18 Sound drivers are very refined, and I do not toe the speakers in that far, in any case; I am still a ways off the central axis. My imaging and space are back and better than ever, with no problems except the ongoing reality that The Loudspeakers reproduce pretty much everything they are fed, for better or for worse. They create a Huge Universe of Differences that includes everything you’d want to know about the recording and the rest of your system, along with the current state of the electricity. I guess it’s each person’s place to choose what they listen to and how they listen to it; but I have to say I am both mystified and amused by the lengths to which people go to listen to crap. On the other hand, I believe that Bruckner is not really popular, either, although it is my current yardstick and delight, as well.>>


Paul S

03-17-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 27352
Reply to: 27351
Following Troels' Bread Crumbs

Today I experimented some more with positioning while keeping Troels’ ideas in mind. I believe I mentioned that I liked the sound I get when standing up between the speakers, as well as when I sit on the floor, and when I measured the distance from the ceiling to my ear holes when standing, I found (surprise…) it’s close to the distance from the floor to my ears when I sit on the floor. Hmmm, again… From this I mentally stretched and pushed my chair back away from the speakers until my ears were about 3’ off the back wall when I was seated, and I toed the speakers in until they pointed at my shoulders when I am seated in my chair in the new position. As things are now, my ears are about 10’ from the speakers when I am seated. You can say what you want about my methods, it “worked”! I got astounding “space” and “imaging” along with greater articulation and clarity at all frequencies, particularly higher frequencies, where I had thought my electronics were a little confused, or maybe it was mediocre electricity. Now I think this slight HF confusion was caused by driver combing, or lobing, or something like that, because it went away when I adopted the new listening positions.  I was amazed and super excited and touched Musically by more articulate LF, as well, whole new melodic lines in the Matacic Bruckner 7. Simply amazing. I’m glad I listened to Troels. I have read several builder response posts where people have changed Troels' design, including all sorts of additions, subtractions, and modifications, and then they seemed underwhelmed or had “issues” with The Loudspeakers’ performance as they used them. Of course everyone is entitled to build and use their own speakers however they want; but remember it doesn’t take much to change the sound, and changes might or might not be for the better. Troels has said as much himself, many times and many ways. As for myself, I guess I have been spurred on and pretty excited lately by great results!>>


Paul S

03-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 37
Post ID: 27353
Reply to: 27352
Location, Location, Location!

It’s been such fun, and so gratifying, to keep getting “more” from The Loudspeakers, which have so far been a veritable Sonic Cornucopia, exceeding my expectations and delighting me again and again since I first listened to Music with them, as chronicled at the beginning of this thread. I should say that my primary relationship with The Loudspeakers has been Listening to Music rather than hi-fi, per se. However, as I keep hearing more in terms of Music, it makes me want to explore certain “aspects of the Sound” that these speakers deliver, namely, “imaging” and “space”. So far, I have stuck to my guns (and Troels’ instructions) and NOT messed with crossovers in order to shape the sound, as some other TL builders have discussed doing on other forums. So far, I have simply moved The (bog standard) Loudspeakers and my ears around in the same listening room I have used for almost 17 years in order to hear better and better understand the Music I want to hear, along with the “sounds of space” and other things currently of interest to me. Before The Loudspeakers (BTL) I chose Sound “density” and dynamics over imaging and space every time, since it seemed at the time to be an either/or situation. And I was never that smitten by the sort of “air-y ambience” that some small speakers do so well, even as they dilute the density and the “un-forced Force” of live music events. At this point it appears that I have discovered with The Loudspeakers a very saturated and detailed FR sonic balance that includes width, height and depth that scales well with both intimate and very large Music venues, apropos, given the recording includes this “information” in the first place. It’s a solid fact that my place in the room, The Loudspeakers’ places in the room, and my position relative to The loudspeakers are all important in terms of the Sound of the Music I get. I will try to explain better as I am able, and I will continue reporting all this as I find the words to describe it better. Meanwhile, Wow!>>



Paul S

06-15-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 38
Post ID: 27417
Reply to: 27353
Warm, but NOT Fuzzy!

Left the system on for several hours today, and it made a huge difference in overall sound. It is all “settled down”, very “lifelike” in terms of pitch, timbre, and overall clarity and “presence” coming from The Loudspeakers but not at all attached to the speakers. No downside at all from sitting with my ears on the horns’ axes; quite the contrary. More hi-fi people should be trying these horns, and the folks who hear them as “too much” might well benefit from sticking with them and experimenting with other gear before altering Troels’ design. How many years have I tried to get the Sound I’m getting now? Many!

>   >  

Paul S>>

07-10-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 39
Post ID: 27429
Reply to: 27417
Bruckner 6 with Space Between Notes

Of course my newly re-tipped phono cartridge contributed, credit where it’s due, but I am also giving The Loudspeakers credit for making subtle differences in playback plain and Musically worthwhile. The performance in question is Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Bruckner 6 (LP). Listening now I can hear why I have had to work to relate to this symphony. While Bruckner is often elaborate, here he opens and lays his foundations using rhythm as a way to begin, hand off, join, counter and end musical threads. Because of the sheer number and variety of voices, their wildly varying intensities, and the intricate, interweaving and contrapuntal rhythms, B6 has previously sounded somewhat “congested” and discursive to me, which has muddied for me what Bruckner intended to convey. Today the rhythms and the melodies, harmonies, etc. they carry are simply clearer, without in any way losing density, and the parts and the whole both make Musical sense to me; I “get it”.

>

Whatever else is going on with hi-fi, I first wish to be able to inhabit the Music and the performances. Check and Check. It seems to me like there is more variety with less smearing and confusion than before, like it’s finally, all of a sudden come into focus. Very nice. Nice scale, and nice depth, too. While I can believe that there are people who “get” Bruckner from a table radio, it’s so far worked best for me to scale it up, both volume and “size”, I suppose to “open it up”, which only works if the system has the headroom to do it. If I ever have to downsize I hope by then I have Bruckner figured out enough that I can fully appreciate a scaled down version. Of course my  present playback is scaled back compared to a live performance, but – apparently – it’s a matter of degree for me, and I am happy and very pleased to share that The Loudspeakers and the Namiki Micro Ridge stylus have combined to enable me to hear Bruckner 6 well enough to really appreciate it.>>


Paul S

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