Romy the Cat wrote:

For a last couple days I was posting at Vinyl Dedicated forum (http://www.vinylengine.com)  trying to get form the guys who use Blue Angel OLIVE Mantis cartridge an idea what lean vs. stout character the Mantis has. As any other audio-cretins out there they had many recommendations for me to use medications and how to behave more congenially among the horde of idiots but they did not indicate anything that might identify the lean characters vs. full body character of Mantis.

 Two weeks ago when I realized that something was wrong with my Shelter I asked a guy that I know “How people buy cartridges nowadays?” He said “They talk a lot with other people”. “I will not do it”, was my reply. Well, not two weeks after I have to admit that I was wrong and I did talk a lot with various people – what else can I do if no one let cartridges for test drive?

There was a number of interesting cases made to me and I was positively-gullible listening everyone. I admit that I was exacting to hear from others only what I want to heard about the sound of cartridges. A few contenders make my short list, most of them off the list but different rezones. I also do not have own experiences with the cartridges that looks like I intend to proceed.

The Shelters were always leading my interest. I do like my 901 and I do not mind to have another one. My Shelters specialist who I thought might educate me about the new Shelters turned out never deal with Shelter after Shelter 90X, there are 4 new models. I found a very pleasant guy – John from Sound Images in Westport, MA (508) 636-3400, who did explained to me the differences in design and sound between all currant Shelter models. It was educational and very useful even thought I did detect that he was not “heavy vinyl junky”. It was good talk and I think I need now to buy something from those guys to compliment them. However, John was not able to collaborate on the specifics of my interests with Shelter. The specifics are following: will the more expensive Shelters address what I consider the Shelter’s minor weaknesses. Here is what I fell is “wrong” with Shelter 901.

1) High electrostatic or whatever other reason make the cartridge very prone to collect dust.

2) Exceedingly hard-reading with slightly overly prominent leading-edges of the phases. This demands VERY high quality of electricity to handle the transient speed of the leading-edges.

3) Very minor dynamic disorientation during orchestral crescendo. It is not auditable at 90dB sensitively and SS PP (I have good 90dB sensitive speakers) but it is auditable at 110dB and SET. Formerly I did not observe it but with new version of Macondo/Melquiades do experience it. I do not know if it is because the 6-chennal Milq is more dynamic or because my Shelter got worn.

4) Slight deficiency in amplitude of color.

5) Minor depersonalization of the upper mid range. It might be hoe to the fact that I tend to run my Shelter relatively hard loaded.

6) Very high sensitively to the quality of surface.

All those things I consider as Shelter 901 shortcomings but there are normal shortcomings and I would perfectly live with them. I was searching a person who know estimate my “Shelter bitching list” against the newest shelters.  I sow nobody and I decided to call (second time) to Shelter distributor - Art from   Axiss Audio. As far as I concern this guy acted like a fucks idiot and I do not like him. He spoke with me like I am 8 years old – passing a LOT of pure BS information and demonstrating ignorance in very rudimental questions. In fact the conversation with him encouraged me to abandon Shelter as I am afraid that having this Moron as distributor Shelter might make the Moron-accommodated cartridges – I have seen it with many companies. So, the chose is to stay with old new stock Shelter 901/90x or to go for something new.

StarBoy made an interesting case with his proposal of that Sound African cartridge. The case is substantiated as he uses SPU along with 901 and then he went for Mantis. StarBoy might be right and the Mantis is good cartridge but I was looking more feeling about the Mantis performances and I did not get from them neither with other Mantis users nor with Mantis manufacturer. The level at wish I expected the stand was made was not there. The Mantis guy and this internet Co.  need to keep working…

Where the case was made very strongly and a very serious level was the case about the Otophone Jubilee.  At this point I did not read any reviews and have seen only technical specification. Two people who pitched to me this cartridge very intelligently and very knowledgeably and informed descried to me the Jubilee specifics, the specifics in the areas that I would like to hear about. It sounds to me very interesting and at this moment the most convincing.

Paul S wrote:

Art Dudley did a pretty fair review of the Jubilee for Stereophile a couple of years back. Of course, he is selling it, so one must +/- read between the lines. Still, he at least touches on/talks about the important stuff in terms of balance and dynamics, I think, and his observations +/- jibed with mine, except he uses no negatives so one has to guess the weaknesses by interpolating the "strengths. Anyway, another cud to chew.

Romy the Cat wrote:

1) High electrostatic or whatever other reason make the cartridge very prone to collect dust. 2) Exceedingly hard-reading with slightly overly prominent leading-edges of the phases. This demands VERY high quality of electricity to handle the transient speed of the leading-edges. 3) Very minor dynamic disorientation during orchestral crescendo. It is not auditable at 90dB sensitively and SS PP (I have good 90dB sensitive speakers) but it is auditable at 110dB and SET. Formerly I did not observe it but with new version of Macondo/Melquiades do experience it. I do not know if it is because the 6-chennal Milq is more dynamic or because my Shelter got worn. 4) Slight deficiency in amplitude of color. 5) Minor depersonalization of the upper mid range. It might be hoe to the fact that I tend to run my Shelter relatively hard loaded. 6) Very high sensitively to the quality of surface.

The Decca London Reference appears ideal.  I am probably going to buy one of these. Romy, you are free to borrow it if you wish to listen to it; just do not break it. 

The question now for me is what second tonearm is appropriate.  Any suggestions. It will need to be neutral; maybe the Schroeder or the AirTangent? I rather like the linear tracking tonearm.  When I have heard it, the sound was complemented nicely.

Romy the Cat wrote:

StarBoy made an interesting case with his proposal of that Sound African cartridge. The case is substantiated as he uses SPU along with 901 and then he went for Mantis. StarBoy might be right and the Mantis is good cartridge but I was looking more feeling about the Mantis performances and I did not get from them neither with other Mantis users nor with Mantis manufacturer. The level at wish I expected the stand was made was not there. The Mantis guy and this internet Co.  need to keep working…

I do not believe it.  I think it is a very good MC cartridge, like Jan Allaerts or ZYX, but probably still thin, inner detail, and no connection to Sound.  Why else would people who are buying it appear so unable to describe what they hear.  I was really disappointed in Vinyl Engine.  However, I did send a long letter to the maker of the Mantis with very specific details about my experience with cartridges, what is lacking, and what I hope to achieve, asking him to describe where his cartridge may fall in this field.  I will see what he says.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Where the case was made very strongly and a very serious level was the case about the Otophone Jubilee.  At this point I did not read any reviews and have seen only technical specification. Two people who pitched to me this cartridge very intelligently and very knowledgeably and informed descried to me the Jubilee specifics, the specifics in the areas that I would like to hear about. It sounds to me very interesting and at this moment the most convincing.

PS If you come by to listen, I do smoke cigars also, so be prepared to enjoy a good smoke with the music.  THAT is why I have three air purifiers running!

Regards,

drdna wrote:

The Decca London Reference appears ideal.  I am probably going to buy one of these. Romy, you are free to borrow it if you wish to listen to it; just do not break it.

Possible it is a good cartridge, I do not know. The Rep insisted that my tonearm is crap and I must not to use it with Decca London Reference. Well, I have my own attitude as well and I discard anybody who feels that 3012 is not THE arm. Thanks, for the offer to try the Decca. Unfortunately I do not practice to borrow or to lend cartridges. I feel that cartridges are like underwear – it is belong a person and shell stay there.

drdna wrote:

The question now for me is what second tonearm is appropriate.  Any suggestions. It will need to be neutral; maybe the Schroeder or the AirTangent? I rather like the linear tracking tonearm.  When I have heard it, the sound was complemented nicely.

If you plan to put the First Second Arm (!) then I strongly encourage going for mono arm. In my view it must be the mandatory 3012/3009 with SPU Mono. I seldom do “suggestions” but a mono arm is not arguable from how I see it. The linear tracking tonearm is cool but it might be the Third Arm…

drdna wrote:

I do not believe it.  I think it is a very good MC cartridge, like Jan Allaerts or ZYX, but probably still thin, inner detail, and no connection to Sound.  Why else would people who are buying it appear so unable to describe what they hear.

I do not know what you believe or not as I did not express anything about Mantis – I clearly have no opinion.  The fact that people are unable to describe the sound I think is a good sign. What however distracted me from exploring the Mantis further was the publicity game of the guy who makes them. He is in the business of promoting his cartridges and builds the cliental of followers – that is cool, that is all manufacturers preacupated with.  The problem is that I do not play along in those games. If he build custom cartridges and claims some superior knowledge and skills then he need to demonstrate more integrity then kiss in ass any asshole he found for him profitable to kiss.  I have a number of manufactures cooperated with me on custom projects. They have skills, expertise and a desire to do advanced thighs. I have some listening expertise, advanced demeans, money to burn on the projects with unpredictable results and stupid enthusiasm to constantly engage myself in those projects. For me those projects is a process of collaboration where maker and user mutually discover the thighs, navigating results to the most advanced outcome possible under given conditions. I do not think that the Mantis guy is at the level what he might be interested in result only.  When he just started a few years back he was. How he was told by a few industry crooks that he is good and he feel himself extremely valuable.  He will go away over it in a few years but for a time being he too busy to collect the signatures of the people who have seen his penis under a magnifier glass. I feel it I too boring not only participate but even to watch. 

drdna wrote:

I agree.  The Ortofon will be a good choice, not the best choice in my taste, but a good choice.

 Well, I juts a little afraid that it would be a good all around cartridge not the “hard-core” cartridge for my Reference Arm. If it be so then my Ref arm will be too close to my Second Stereo arm. What would be the “best choice”? Well, too much to ask for “best”… If I definitely know the answer I would go for it… I will be bitching anyhow, this way, asking people an advise - I will have somebody to blame…

drdna wrote... the Mantis is probably still thin, inner detail and no connection to sound...

As you have never heard it please explain this not to me (as I write this just to amuse myself) but to yourself while smoking a Cohiba Esplendidos.

Romy wrote... He will go away over it in a few years...

That he may just like Fannie mac or whatever, until then I guess he will be hand making those carts in his workshop.

Fortunately, it is a far superior cartridge than the 901/SPU and as I am not gifted enough to hand make a saxophone in my shed it is time to go practice and make real sounds on my choice of purchase Selmer Mark 6 tenor. I hear that the hand made Mauriat tenors are superior... I guess I will have to blow one to find out. Naw, why bother when I can register on a forum ask someone else's opinion and talk to the manufacturer. Job done as it may have no connection to sound and will be gone in a few years as they suck **&*^ and create hype and noise trying to sell their bumbo clot, pussy clot and rass clot to rahted foolishness. (Sorry, the native Jamaican coming out in me)

I had below playing for extra light relief while writing...

http://www.televisiontunes.com/Different_Strokes.html

Seriously, I hope you both find the cart's you desire stress free with a big fat cigar to celebrate at the end of the rainbow/headshell.

p.s. Must also get a test ride of the new KTM RC8 race bike and ride it like I stole it before the bad weather sets in. Naw,...........

FIN ad finem; ad fin. To the end. ad finem fidelis. Faithful to the end. Ad finem spero. I hope to the last. ad finem ultimum. To the final end. ...

starboy wrote:

Romy wrote... He will go away over it in a few years... That he may just like Fannie mac or whatever, until then I guess he will be hand making those carts in his workshop.

Actually it was my typical mistype. I met to say “It will go away over it in a few years...”, referring that this attitude of him being a bellybutton of universe shell go away if the actual sound is something that he is interested in. If he is not a fool then he might understand eventually that a cheap popularity among users and recognition among industry is not something that reflects well on the actually sound of product. From the email that he sent to me it showed that he is not a fool, at least it was the way how he wanted to appear.

starboy wrote:

Fortunately, it is a far superior cartridge than the 901/SPU …

Possible, with all my conversation about Mantis I do not remember I ever made any guess or assumption how it might sound.  In horns, I feel I am qualified to make sometimes very bold assessments with very high precession about the sound of the things without even listing the installation. I might do it because I know patterns and have an experience to hear many elements and the connections of the elements. In cartridges I am clueless about design element and the implication of design chooses to sound. For instance to me it sounds ridicules that he offers a selection of cantilevers, body and the tips. I do appreciate however that he assures the chose will not affect the sound of the cartridges. So, I would not make presumption how is sound as ‘drdna’ did. Perhaps he has his own reasons, perhaps he can share them.

I was trying to make some very bogus calculations and assumptions in my head from a few things that Andre told but I was not able to. Andre has 3012 tonearm that he does not like and prefer to Micro Seiki MA77 tonearm. I well know MA77 (I had all Micro arms), consider it a good arm but having it right along width 3012 I found that SME (with my typical incase of effective mass to 25-30g) is richer , way more superior in bass and less “shallow” of I might say so. All my foundlings were in context of my cartridges that are not Mantis but the same way all Andre’s foundlings were in context of his ported mini-monitors. So, how to reconcile all of it?  Do not forget that it is not a large company like Ortofone, Denon or AudioTechnica does a machine mass-production of cartridges where the technologic perfection is a way assures the repeatability of results. Mantis is homemade cartridge. The good part that Andre does it himself, not having a predation like with a dozen part time pregnant women like so of small manufactures in Japan. So, the result Mantis will have is very much the subordinate of Andre Hanekom’s mind… and the positioning of his loudspeakers in his room. So, try to figure out how the hell the Mantis cartridge would sound what you get it. I did read a few Andre posts at the WhinelEngine (oh, BTW the way I was banned from there, thanks God.) and I did not see him actually talks about the things that I would like to hear from him. So, go figure how it all work out…

Once again, I have no opinion on the Mantis sound.  You starboy has it and it is very nice, in fact you attention to Mantis was something that very much intrigue me, and keep intriguing. Now, between the BSO seasons, I have a very short period on my interests in cartridges, what I looking another one to replace my 901. After I get cartridges the window of my interest will be closed and for a long time (it is what I hope). There were a number of cartridges that made case for me during the window interest; the Mantis did not make the strong case. Perhaps it is not the problem of Mantis itself but the fucking idiots from VenalEngine that came along with the Mantis story. I do not know. I did not have a good feeling about it but I did not any good evidences as well. If that Andre with his desire to make custom cartridges would live next town over and would willing to go for a custom projects of “Super Mantis” then it might be interesting but in what he expressed so far I saw in him no credentials to recruit him for such a project.  I do not say that he has not I say that I did not see it. All that I saw was quite a hypocrisy between his “performance” at public site (where he develops his clientele) and his judgment/opineons expressed in his private emails. It was as far as I am willing to comment on this subject.

starboy wrote:

I would have left this alone but the facts and truth will out... 1) The Mantis was well known to me and others around me before Andre joined V.E. though maybe not to you Americans. 2) There are possibly 2 owners other than myself on V.E. (with its tens of thousands of members) who own a Mantis. B50 was also requested not to review the cart' on the site. I myself did so though he did not want it... (Seeing this commotion he was right and I was wrong). Also, if that is the place to pimp a product then the b__ch will never have your money. It is though a very very good site regardless of a few baboons and I noticed even you made contributions to other threads. 3) I was priviledged to gain testimonials I could verify away from V.E. from owners in S.A., USA and Europe. Some of the cartridges these owners owned and moved away from were beyond my dreams I may say. I also know Andre has heard his Mantis in much larger than my audio installation. 4) The Mantis was purchased based on the sound that I heard and not internet hype which sadly is how I attained a 901. (It was cheap, what can I say but it did deliver during its tenure but I will never buy a cartridge this way again). 5) Yes, I feel if so many did not approach the thread things may have been different, alas... Anyway, one less person in the queue for my rarer than a unicorn Gaiac wood version.... Let's keep it small and bespoke like a Saville Row suit... If you've never had one made for yourself I can't explain..

Anyhow, since we were talking about Mantis there is one moment that I felt “and issues” while I spoke with Andre. This is a pure my “common sense” and it might not have any practical meaning; however it was what was in my head. I did not ask Andre over the telephone and I did not follow up about it on the sire or in email. Still, if I decided to pursue the Mantis cartridge then I would consider this moment and would be trying to obtain a satisfaction.

Andre told and you can see it on the picture that his cartridge has bolt somewhere in the mid of the body. This bold serves as copyright protection devise and this bolt also fine tunes some specific aspects of sound, stressing the cartridge body in a certain way. That is fine and I used the very same approach in my former version of Super Melquiades I was trying to comfort the buzzing of the multiple power transformers and chokes on the metal steel chassis. I had a large locking bolt driven across the whole chassis to the opposite wall and having all transformers and chokes rung I was turning a nut on this bold tuning off the harmonics of the noise. It was very effective, but I did detect that after a few hours when the power supply was getting hot I need to retune the tightness of the bolt.

So, let pretend that Mantis used the same idea and let presume that when Andre relies the cartridge it is perfectly tuned in accordance… to Andre’s playback. Sure any further influences (stresses) that might impact the perfections of the Mantis’ bolt tightness would be minor BUT the amplitude of the tightness change I presume need to be VERY minor in order to set Mantis off the “perfect Andre’s original setting of the bolt”. Let see what might stress a cartridge body:

1) Temperature. I think 10-15 degree of Fahrenheit are reasonable in listening room, would it affect sound of the fine-tuned bolt?

2) Force with which the bolts attached Mantis to it’s headshell.

3) The natural release of the cartridge body’s bolt (if it is not stooped by various menace)

I is possible that it is all not important but I think it is the issues and I do not like the idea of fastidious tuning of body of the cartridge by well-intended stress. I did not see anybody raised this question, so I did…

Romy the Cat wrote:

Possible, with all my conversation about Mantis I do not remember I ever made any guess or assumption how it might sound.  In horns, I feel I am qualified to make sometimes very bold assessments with very high precession about the sound of the things without even listing the installation. I might do it because I know patterns and have an experience to hear many elements and the connections of the elements. In cartridges I am clueless about design element and the implication of design chooses to sound. For instance to me it sounds ridicules that he offers a selection of cantilevers, body and the tips. I do appreciate however that he assures the chose will not affect the sound of the cartridges. So, I would not make presumption how is sound as ‘drdna’ did. Perhaps he has his own reasons, perhaps he can share them. I was trying to make some very bogus calculations and assumptions in my head from a few things that Andre told but I was not able to. Andre has 3012 tonearm that he does not like and prefer to Micro Seiki MA77 tonearm. I well know MA77 (I had all Micro arms), consider it a good arm but having it right along width 3012 I found that SME (with my typical incase of effective mass to 25-30g) is richer , way more superior in bass and less “shallow” of I might say so. All my foundlings were in context of my cartridges that are not Mantis but the same way all Andre’s foundlings were in context of his ported mini-monitors. So, how to reconcile all of it? The Cat

Romy

 The bridge has burned down and please revoke my membership to this forum.

 Drdna

 I knew many a Tenor player that could improvise and move a jazz loving person to an inner experience.

 When younger I would ask them how they achieved this…. They could not explain…. I’d take lessons from them…. They could not teach.

 Being arrogant I slightly blamed and criticised them for my inability to progress to the status I deserved.

 Alas, in time I realised it was my frustration in not being able to play to their standard and my own inability to understand what was being taught.

 I feared I would make a ‘sound’ only myself and others who did not want to offend me would listen to.

 They were recognised in their craft and who was I to criticise them. They had made sacrifices for my enjoyment and if I wanted to do the same for others, well that was obvious.

 The best lesson that I received was to humbly accept humility within that community.

starboy wrote:

The bridge has burned down and please revoke my membership to this forum.

Hm, what bridge? What burned down? Are you become a member of some kind of engrossment cult? Very sad. Anyhow, there is no “membership” at this forum. Everyone at their own…. If you find that you have no interest to what expressed around here then unsubscribe the threads as stop posting. I personally would like you to stick around as I find your contribution is valuable, at least to me but you are free to do whatever benefits and pleases you.

I mounted the new Jubilee last night. I did not have much time to listen it and all that I heard was just a half side of a record that I know well. The Jubilee was at 2.3g, no enforced VTA, loaded to 75R, the 3012 arm with default shell: I have no idea what it needs and will play with all of the things later on.  It was interesting how that “fist kiss” goes as regardless of the perspective optimizations and been not broken-in I feel that the most important points shell be indicative right the way.

It was indicative. My fist feeling was kind of very positive surprise as Jubilee dose not sound like my Ortofone SPU – the Jubilee appears to be more “high-tech” cartridge then SPU Classic. That is good sign and it is what I would like to capitalize upon. I do not know if it goes into the “high-tech” domain as deep as Shelter 901 – for that I need to know Jubilee more intimate…

The Jubilee is not stale sounding cartridge; it is what I was afraid after Kouetsu. In fact the Jubilee looks like VERY bubbly and very animated, a bit more animated then I would like, even up to the point of tear apart the imaging.  However, it is a too new v and I am too ignorant in the needle’s needs to judge the cartridge more seriously from this perspective.

Where however I was instantaneously and immensely pleased was the Jubilee’s color palette – that was extremely nice. It is tremendously rich and VERY saturated but it looks like it have no color schema of SPU cartages. The SPU palettes more brownish, more decadent and more self-indulgent. Kind of colors for sake of peruse of color nobility. It is like SPU grand to anything color royalty even to peasants. The colors are royal but they subdued and more disciplined. The Jubilee colors sound like a teenager-impressionist – wild and untamed. It does not look that it have and color preferences, at least now - I am sure I will discover later. Shelter did have that same ability to identify colors with no discrimination but Shelter’s colors were very different. If SPU’s colors all diluted with some light brown water then the Shelter’s colors are Shelter with white.  The Jubilee colors are way more interesting then ether SPU or Shelter…

I was spinning records with my new Jubilee. Playing with setting here and there… The Jubilee it looks like not too fuzzy. The 2.2-2.3g of VTF, the VTA is slightly back and the Jubilee it is not too picky like other cartridges.  It used with a regular 3012’s shell, I did not load the shell as I did with Shelter - it does not help Jubilee; in fact the shell’s mass loading makes the things worse: adds hollowness to bass.

The long needle tip is very cool – the dust goes not glue itself to the “corners” as the corners are too high the point of the contact surface. If dust does attach itself then it is very easy to clean it by simple dipping or blowing – the curve what the dust sticks are too far. The surface noise is not as quiet as I seen with another needles. The records of good quality surface play fine but the records with slightly worn surface do not hide noise with Jubilee – in fact Jubilee is quite distinctively says that the records have not perfect grooves.  So, I would call Jubilee as a noise highlighting cartridge. (BTW, there is one subject regarding it that I need to look further as it is possible that I made it myself.)

The difference between the first and consequential pressing is very highly discriminated. The difference between the pressing houses is much highlighted as well. I did not detect any long trim preferences or attitude in the needle – very positive sign and very few cartridges had it. (Shelter 901 for instance)

Dynamically Jubilee very good, no misfortune here. In fact the dynamics I would say just phenomenal but I bite my tang as the last month with Shelter the dynamic was the subject of my paranoia. Anyhow, I have no criticism about the Jubilee’s dynamic – it is beyond any criticism.

The absolutely greatest things about Jubilee is the way in which this cartridge lights up sounds with zillions macroscopic colorful light-bulbs of something that I call - the tonal staccatissimo. The Jubilee colors are very “creative”, saturated, with extremely wide margin of shads and grades and the colors applied very correctly.  Jubilee does not go overboard with color discrimination and grand it only what is it called upon. When it necessary Jubilee is throwing the colors, in fact the “tonal dressing up” in beginning calls attention upon itself. But it I very easy to get accustom to the good things. What is great that that the “tonal dressing” is strong but discriminating: when I play some color-wise crappy music, like Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony for instance, then Jubilee does not do any tonal dressing kinks. Only for this quality I feel the Jubilee need to be respected.

The HF on this needle is very clean – there is no SPU’s syrupy crap. Clean, contrasty and delicate. Not overly showy and not overly glitzy. I think the cartridge need to age further to draw more finalized HF concussions. I would say that the transition to upper MF is nothing short of phenomenal – absolutely indiscernible and with good orchestra the evolution of string into woodwinds is very convincing. The mid range is fine though I fell that behind the tonal beautiful there is some room for more MF articulation. It is not smog – it is positively-bubbly but with the necessary fragility and subtlety.  Perhaps it needs to play more, I do not know… The MF’s delicate come for whatever reason at high or low dynamic ranges – in dynamic extremes Jubilee behaves very nicely. Otherwise Jubilee does not have that MF super-verbalization; at least so far it does not have (15-20 hours on the needle)

Were Jubilee doe have a stunning delicate is when the tone roles from lover MF into upper bass.  Jubilee is doing it very genital and very beautiful. The mid bass and lower bass are fine, the lower bass is another subject. It is there and it is goo but I would like to have more. It is not that it is deficient but… put in this way if it has more than my playback will be able to use it. I need to look further into the lower bass. The Jubilee has something that I call “musical bass” – it is good itself but I need more technical, the bass ++ , all the way down in depth and weight. My playback knows how to make from this “technical” bass the right musical bass. The Jubilee so far does not offer this extra material to work with, the Shelter 901 did it. The Jubilee’s bass is in nearly-sufficient side, but I would like to have much more….

The imaging is totally different story and it all over the map now and I generally do not like it. It has very different then Shelter presentation but it is not to stable to talk about it with certainly. Let see what will be with imaging in 50 hours…

Anyhow, so far the Jubilee is fun. It does not look like a “dream” cartridge but it has own very pleasant moments. I hope in a few dozen hours it will render itself into a more or less stable performance – it will be interesting to see what it will be…

The cat

Paul, I am sorry, be are you know in better word as Sarah Palin?

What anti-skating has to do with anything? What does it mean that “MC 3000II takes LOTS of anti-skate” or that one cartridge took more anti-skate than some other cartridges? The anti-skating is not a metaphysical hypothetical force that exists out awareness. Anti-skating is a fixed and well-defined characteristic of cartridge operation and it is imposable to have that one cartridge take more anti-skate than some other cartridges. A cartridge take as much anti-skate as it design and the design of arm allow, no more, no less. It also has absolutely no relation with “decent imaging”…

Anyhow, this is not the thread about anti-skating but I thought to make a comment as what you said sounds too bogus to me and at this site only I have a rights to express silliness....

Thought I'd share my experience, FWIW.

If you think anti-skating requirement is always the same for every cartridge, then do it how you always do it.

Likewise, if you find no relationship between tracking/tracing and imaging, bless you.

For my part, I have found that the optimum amount amount of anti-skate force has varied among the cartridges I have used, and the heavy-tracking, way sharp, extra-long line MC 3000 II happens to take considerably more than any other cartridge I've used.

Best regards,
Paul S

Paul S wrote:

If you think anti-skating requirement is always the same for every cartridge, then do it how you always do it. Likewise, if you find no relationship between tracking/tracing and imaging, bless you.

It is not what I said. The anti-skating force is different for each cartridge’s VTF, for each arm shape and for each set of other parameters. The anti-skating is a fixed parameter for a given configuration and it is absolutely worthless to talk about anti-skating in context of cartridges comparing. If to pick deeper then different compliance cartridges express different tolerance for the anti-skating imperfection but it has no practical meaning as the anti-skating in typical arms is perfectly set only for a single point on the record, not for a whole record. The relationship between anti-skating (I have no idea what tracking/tracing has to do with it) and imaging is totally out my understating. Thanks for the blessing.

Anyhow, I have no intention to talk about anti-skating anymore in context of this thread.

Romy the Cat wrote:

The mid bass and lower bass are fine, the lower bass is another subject. It is there and it is goo but I would like to have more. It is not that it is deficient but… put in this way if it has more than my playback will be able to use it. I need to look further into the lower bass. The Jubilee has something that I call “musical bass” – it is good itself but I need more technical, the bass ++ , all the way down in depth and weight. My playback knows how to make from this “technical” bass the right musical bass. The Jubilee so far does not offer this extra material to work with, the Shelter 901 did it. The Jubilee’s bass is in nearly-sufficient side, but I would like to have much more….